Ethics Question

[mandobando]

I have yet to see a question like this so I am going put it out there. I see lots of threads that have "no financial interest" in them and I will preface this with the fact that there is financial interest in this question on my part. That's where ethics come to play and I am not going to comprimise mine, especially on this board which I have grown to love. Here's where I need some thoughts and advice. I am not a dealer or a person that buys and sells instruments for pleasure mostly because I don't have half the knowledge, or the money that it would take to stay above water in doing so. #That being said I did run into an opportunity yesterday, I think. #I have a friend that has a few very high end mandolins. He presented me the option yesterday of buying one of the ones he doesn't play for very cheap because he needs to get rid of it relatively soon. I immediately told him that there is no way I can even afford it even at a dirt cheap price. I am currently pinching pennies to fund a mandolin from a small builder. His reply was " buy it, sell it and make a little money in doing so." #I am human so immediately the wheels start turning because I could really use the money and could probably find backing. #The moral dilemma is this. #I do not want to be the guy that talks up a mandolins greatness, and then you all see it in the classifieds. #I do however want to know more info on the mandolin; actual value, and what kind of need there is for this type of mandolin, ect. #There is no place that has the knowledge of this community and yet there is no other place better to sell a mandolin that I can think of. #Before I even discuss what kind of mandolin it is, I want to make sure it is OK to use both avenues here at the cafe.I even suggested to my friend to put it in the cafe classifieds himself and he said he doesn't want to mess with it because he has no idea of it's value. He said "you do it." #I am not a big risk taker and do want to make sure it would be worth my time or even if I would be getting a deal up front. It is my hopes that it could fill a need for someone and to also make a very modest amount of money and I am just being honest. But if this is an unspoken no no I understand and will not proceed. #Thanks in advance for all of your thoughts and opinions.

[man doh]

So what kind of mandolin is it? I don't think it would be that bad to talk about it. Now hyping a product up that is not all that is unethical in my book.

[billkilpatrick]

i don't see the problem. simply take a photo, put it in the classifieds and see what happens - we're all big boys and girls now. if, as i assume, you're talking about a 4-figure mandolin, i wouldn't waste time putting it on ebay but if you do, the same applies.

in any case, jolly good fishing mate!

- bill

[Lee]

Hi Mandobando,
There's nothing wrong with buying with the intention to re-sell.You're intentions are quite clear and honorable. Plus you know the difference bewteen talking up a mandolin, and talking about a mandolin.
I'm all ears. What did you stumble upon?

[Jim Garber]

I agree with Bill. This is the place to sell mandolins. No one will fault you to make some money off this BTW. If you haven't a clue about an asking price, then there are plenty of us who have that knowledge.

If you friend wants you to sell it for him perhaps you can just take photos, put it in the classifieds and take a percentage of the selling price as your commission. That way, you don't have to buy it from him or even lay out the money. He just has to trust you to handle it fairly.

Also bear in mind that there is nothing wrong with you taking a slice of the sale. You are working for it: putting up the ad, making payment arrangements, packing, etc.

I have done much of that commission selling and it works well for everyone. Also, don't forget to donate a small portiuon of the sale to the Cafe as well.

Jim

[mandobando]

Hey guys, quick responses, thanks. What a great community. I stumbled upon an 04' Gibson varnish fern. It is a great looking and playing instrument and it has pickup. I simply don't know what an instrument of it's caliber is worth. I know the retail is very pricey but used I don't know what is fair for pricing. It has very minor playing wear but I suppose it is good that is has been played. What do you think? Thanks.

[Jim Garber]

I know the retail is very pricey but used I don't know what is fair for pricing.
Do a search and find out what the dealers are charging new and used. Price it accordingly. If it doesn't sell lower the price so you are still making some money on it. generally, if it is a good one, it will sell and since it has a name, it will hold value.

Jim

[otterly2k]

What they all said...

Plus- there are a lot of ways to research the value of an instrument short of asking on the message board... start by reading the classifieds and looking for similar instruments... what are others asking. Do a Google search and/or go to the websites of other retailers and dealers and see what others are selling similar instrument for and what the variables are that seem to push the value up or down. Or you can get it appraised by someone knowledgeable, if you don't have the time or means to do this research. These will get you in the ballpark...
KE

[Lee]

Rule of thumb is a new mando losses 30% after leaving the showroom floor. But the Gibson line has had a recent and considerable price increase recently.
You can search EBay on closed sales to get a glimpse of the market too.

[stevem]

I agree you should fee free to ask questions and then sell here. Many of us will be happy to have another mando to potentially buy.

A word of caution though--I've attempted to do this with a couple instruments (guitars and mandos) as a means to make some extra mando moola. Some I've made a small gain, some I've lost. It's easy to get over-excited when given estimates on value, or researching it on your own. Don't get too starry-eyed. I had one vintage guitar I thought was clearly established at a market value of $1400-$1600, based on my searches and alot of advice. After 3 painful months I finally dumped it for $700. Even on my sales with small profits, I've had to sell for less than what I thought it was worth. I, for one, am done with the wheelin'/dealin' mando business (that is, unless I see a really sweet deal. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ).

[Philip Halcomb]

Call Stan Jay at Mandolin Brothers and talk to him about it. He's not shy about saying what he would pay for it and then what he'd sell it for. Real nice chap too...

[Bob DeVellis]

As you do your research, recognize the difference between retail price with the backing of a dealer and fair asking price for a private sale with no guarantee. It would be a mistake to assume that what a dealer was asking would be an attractive price for a private sale. A bit of haggling may get a lower price from a dealer and a private seller should offer a price that's lower than that. There's also a different psychology involved in parting with something already owned versus paying to get something you don't own. Although there are several variables involved, generally speaking, the value of something you own is perceived as higher than the value of something you don't presently own but might acquire (a conclusion based on formal studies, not just subjective impressions). So, all of this means that sellers are inclined to over-estimate what the market will pay for a possession they decide to sell. This isn't intended to discourage you but just to give a bit of perspective.

[Kbone]

There was one for sale recently, I think 7,500 - quick sale = 6800 - 7000.JMHO

[wallflower]

I'd buy it and play the heck out of it if I were you. #The varnish Ferns I've played have been really good mandolins.

[blammo]

A word of caution though--I've attempted to do this with a couple instruments (guitars and mandos) as a means to make some extra mando moola. #Some I've made a small gain, some I've lost. #It's easy to get over-excited when given estimates on value, or researching it on your own. #Don't get too starry-eyed. #I had one vintage guitar I thought was clearly established at a market value of $1400-$1600, based on my searches and alot of advice. #After 3 painful months I finally dumped it for $700. #Even on my sales with small profits, I've had to sell for less than what I thought it was worth. #I, for one, am done with the wheelin'/dealin' mando business (that is, unless I see a really sweet deal. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #).
Woah…I hear you. The same thing happened to me down to the exact $$$ amounts. A monetary value is nothing without a buyer willing to pay that figure. Unless you have deep enough pockets to sit on something until you get your price, I'd try to broker the transaction somehow & pocket a little of the cash.

The best thing I can say about musical instruments as investments is that they are way more fun to hang onto while they mature than stocks, bonds, or gold ingots.

[Ted Eschliman]

The best thing I can say about musical instruments as investments is that they are way more fun to hang onto while they mature than stocks, bonds, or gold ingots.
How true...
Kind of a twist on an old joke:
What's the difference between us MAS-afflicted mando enthusiasts vs. stocks and bonds?
In general, the stocks and bonds will mature as they get older.

[ShaneJ]

Actually, only the bonds mature. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif (OK, preferred stocks sometimes mature too)

mandobando, there is nothing immoral about making a profit. There's nothing immoral about doing so by doing something that someone else could just as easily do for themselves if they wanted to. Time is money, and some folks would rather give up a little money instead of a little of their time. If you don't mind trading a little bit of your time to them for that money, then it sounds like a good deal for both of you.

I applaud your commitment to ethical behavior during that process. With the kind of honesty and good business practices that you are exibiting here, you might get a nice little business going, if you're not careful - whether you intended to or not. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[steve in tampa]

If you have a friend willing to give you a below value deal knowing you intend to resell to help finance your instrument that you are having built, it sounds like you have a good friend, Take him up on his offer, make someone else a good deal and yourself a couple bucks towards your new mando, and sleep well at night!

[jimbob]

I believe that would come under the heading of OPPORTUNITY.
If your friend is willing to sell it to you for a lower than market value price, or at least low end of market price, and you feel like you can turn it and make a buck, what;s the issue ? He would be turning it sooner and with less effort than he feels he can afford now. You would be taking a risk that you could sell it for at least what you paid plus a reasonable compensation for you time. The only tough issue now is to decide what the market really is and how much the mandolin will bring. I don't see any compromise of ethics on anyone's part in a deal like this.

[generankin]

I believe that would come under the heading of OPPORTUNITY.
If your friend is willing to sell it to you for a lower than market value price, or at least low end of market price, and you feel like you can turn it and make a buck, what;s the issue ? He would be turning it sooner and with less effort than he feels he can afford now. You would be taking a risk that you could sell it for at least what you paid plus a reasonable compensation for you time. The only tough issue now is to decide what the market really is and how much the mandolin will bring. I don't see any compromise of ethics on anyone's part in a deal like this.
Agreed, 1,000%. "Opportunity" is the correct word. Here's another word, though: "temptation." Expose yourself to it. This mando may be calling your name. This mando may represent another opportunity, one to acquire a better instrument that you may think you deserve or can afford. Be prepared for this to happen, and consider how much you could shake loose by cutting out cigs/beer/store-boughten lunch/etc.

-Gene