Help with terrible sounding K&K Twin Mandolin Pickup

[eelcobeckers]

i recently purchased a almost new eastman 614 mandolin (the one with the oval soundhole). it came fitted with the factory standar pickup which I believe is a K&K Twin Mandolin Pickup . One of the reaons I purchased it was because the reviews where so good. The mandolin itself is great, but plugged in it sounds absolutely terrible. very boxy and muddy, a bit like a cheap car radio! We use lots of other acoustic instruments in the band and they all sound great, the pickup is definitely the problem.

i suppose my question has anybody else had the same problem?
also would a K&K preamp improve the sound? I dont want to spend even more money if the preamp wont change the sound drastically!

thanks everyone!

[CES]

I'm by no means an expert on the electronics side of things, but general consensus is that most of this type of pickup require a preamp. I use the LR Baggs Venue DI with good results, though usually with a Baggs soundhole pickup on Guitar. I generally play at church, so a mike usually suffices for me.

If you bought from TMS, Folk Musician, Elderly, etc, you should call to discuss with them, possibly even while you're plugged in so they can hear the problem. Of course, others with far more experience will chime in as well.

Hope you find a simple and relatively inexpensive solution! It's frustrating when you want plug and play simplicity and don't get it! As Pat McManus said, "it's all about sequences."

[mandroid]

You got the K&K preamp as the next thing in the signal chain? You don't say. If not try that.

Others have said they like other makes of Piezo input preamps, in prior posts.. check out those postings.

[eelcobeckers]

I have the mandolin plugged into a BSS DI box, then straight into the mixing desk. so no preamp yet. i always assumed (probably wrongly!) that all a preamp did was make the signal louder?? would it affect the tonal quality at all?

thanks for all the help so far!

[Andrew Faltesek]

Reach inside and make sure the transducers are firmly bonded. K&K T is passive but should play well with an acoustic amp without preamp. For PA via direct box or other amp a preamp would be advisable.

[texaspaul]

I use a LR Bagga Para DI which has several features to shape the tone. I use it with a banjo also which requires a very different setup on the Para DI.

[Freddyfingers]

Got the k and k in a Loar 600. Straight through a Schertler amp it sounds fine. I also have the k and k preamp, which through other systems helps to boost it a bit and lets you configure the sound to your liking. How ever, they did take a bit of getting used to. Prior to that I used guitars with the under saddle pick ups. Which through the Schertler sound great. I was expecting the k and k to work the same, but they are different beasts. They can be very percussive, since they are mounted to the sound board, any tapping while picking comes through clearly. Took a while to correct my playing.

I would like to think that the folks at Eastman do so many of these installations that they put the pick ups in the right spot. I guess it's possible that they might have placed the, a bit off from where they should be, or maybe one is not adhered as well as it should be. I would plug it into a few systems and play with the gain and eq. If it doesn't correct it, have them service it.

[rockies]

Piezo type pickups are very high impedance so to go through a passive DI and into the PA will result in very low quality sound, You require a high Z input preamp such as the Para-DI to make the impedances match. Good preamps do much more than amplify. I use K&K in both of the mandolins I use in the country band I play in and really like them.
Dave

[CES]

Yes, as Dave said, preamps help match impedences/frequencies and allow EQ prior to anything the board does. One of our band mates has a guitar with an onboard preamp. It sounds pretty decent, my venue allows me to really dial tone in where I want it...

[almeriastrings]

I depends on which BSS DI it is. If a passive one (transformer based) - no, it won't sound good. These have an input impedance only in the 50K range. Most of the 'active' ones (including the AR133) should be OK as they present around 1M which is normally fine with K&K's on mandolin.

[stevedenver]

I use a LR Bagga Para DI which has several features to shape the tone. I use it with a banjo also which requires a very different setup on the Para DI.


OP: I concur with texas paul, rockies and almeria. I have a Rigel with piezo/transducer type pickup (I believe that's what it is-its what Rigel supplies stock), and it has a low output signal and sounded very boxy and had a high end shrillness, which simply didn't sound "natural". I would best describe it as unnaturally harsh, microphonic. I presume it is what is referred to as an ultra high impedence out put.

Yes, the tone difference is huge with a good di, imho.

After an inquiry here, just a couple of weeks back, I tried my friend's LR Baggs paracoustic di (the small brown box version) , and then,

bought the nicer Baggs Venue, same as above but with boost and tuner/mute ( and sparkly cool green tuner lights-LOL)-holy moly!!! what a difference these make.


here's why, imho;
a you can boost gain if signal is low, as in mine. (This low signal was nice into my 5E3 with its either low at "2" and full blast at "3" and beyond volume control, but otherwise a disaster.)

b you can adjust volume, from the stage since you don't have a vol knob on the mando I presume.
c you can adjust bass, two ranges of mids, treble and high treble, as well as having an adjustable freq specific notch filter to avoid feedback. this is the essence of the thing, because you can get that acoustic fullness without too much treble, and, adjust bass to avoid feedback howling. This is where you shape the tone and it is huge. It took away all the box and shrillness, that overly bright percussiveness too from my Rigel.
d you can mute when tuning (the display is brilliantly bright, if a bit slow to respond to a mando-i still prefer my headstock tuner, but the mute is great)
e it works with acoustic/electric guitars too as well
f you have some control from the stage re volume , boost and mute. really nice if youre into an amp instead of having a soundman, or, the soundman is an idiot or asleep.
g the boost, simply a higher volume level, is adjustable, so you can do just a touch for solos, barely noticeable, but more forward in the mix. not eddie vanhalen.
h the Baggs had a phase inverter, which, simply, in one position or another, sound better-one will sound a bbit thinner than the other in any given PA.

so, you say, how can I be sure?
take your mando to Guitar Center, along with 9v battery, and

1 try out the baggs DIs, also,
2 try your mando into an acoustic amplifier, and experiment with the tone controls and notch filter.
this is really important, as the eq is essential, and, changes with each instrument, venue, etc.

why the amp suggestion? well, simply the Baggs are 150-250 respectively, and a decent used acoustic amp can be had. (fwiw I bought my Roland cube 80x for my jazz guitar, for $200 delivered, as it sounds like a Roland Jazz Chorus amp tone is pretty neutral and clean-like a warm twin, and is portable, pretty damned loud, good headroom, and good to great with acoustics too).(this from a tube amp devote').

otoh, the Di boxes are also great into an PA board. since, depending on circumstances, I play both ways, street festivals, lousy bars, beer gardens, or nicer venues, I bought the Baggs, instead of another dedicated amp.

yes the Baggs DIs are pricey. As much as the pickup, an amp, or, a small upper quality pencil type instrument mic. I bought my Baggs Venue used and saved about 35% from discounted new retail, from guitar canker. I guess I liked the fact that the Venue was flat and wide and could be reliably in front of me, face up, over the brown version, which really is a box and not really a pedal (but Velcro ould fasten it-the latters controls are pretty tiny too compared to the venue-harder to read or adjust on the fly imho.

In looking to buy the Baggs , used, on reverb.com, amazon, and fleabay, used prices I saw were not a super deal, but were indeed less than new, but not less than GC (which is good about returns).

I am delighted that I took the plunge, as it really helps when going into a portable amp (my most used is a Roland 80x) or PA. My mando sounds nice. that simple. it didn't before.

the K and K preamp is also great, I understand, matched, but with a too easily moved loose volume control I have read, and I know GC carries the Baggs. Not likely the K and K. the ohm difference of the respective DI boxes, (k and K 1ohm , Baggs 10ohm) apparently to my ear, makes little/no difference, if any running the K and K pick up (1ohm) into 10ohm.

no I didn't compare to the K and K preamp, cos, I couldn't try before I bought, and folks here said they were about the same.

Go try one and youll know.

[Chanmandolin]

Preamp is a MUST! My pickup sounds very bad without my eq preamps I use. Plus if your running through an amp as well I'd look at upgrading that as well.

[multidon]

Yes, let me join in the chorus here. Passive DI is not enough. You need the preamp. You don't have to spend a lot of money though. For 29.95, I find the Behrenger AD121 does just fine. Buy this at Musician's Enemy or Teenage Wannabe's Playground, aka Guitar Center.

[eelcobeckers]

wow thanks everyone for a wealth of information. BTW the DI I use is the active one , not the passive one. but i think i will invest in a good preamp. hopefully it will get rid of the awful boxy midrangy sound! I also have a friend with an acoustic amp, so will try borrow that too!

Just out of curiosity has anyone else used the MISI pickups? i have one in my 1991 Flatiron festival mandolin and it sounds beautiful!

[Dave Greenspoon]

An active preamp is pretty critical for a passive piezo. The other night I was at an open mic playing through the house pa. The person running the board asked if my p/u was passive or active; I told him passive, he set the system, and my Rigel has rarely sounded as nice gigging out.

FWIW, even a basic preamp will do. I love my Baggs Venue DI for all sorts of reasons, but you don't need something that extensive. Clearly the K&K preamp is a great choice, but start around $100 for a non-XLR option. One inexpensive solution is to find an old Fishman G II online that will work well enough and then some.

[Don Grieser]

I thought the Eastman 600 series came with Schertler pickups.

[Tom Wright]

Let's all agree that any pickup is very unlikely to sound natural on its own, as it is not a mic from 3 ft away, etc.

In my experience nearly 100% of pickups benefit from a midrange cut. I have the Baggs Para DI, and I pull 1.2K Hz down all the way, occasionally shifting a bit higher or lower frequency, depending on the speaker and/or PA. I also pull the treble down a lot. And this is for not a piezo but a magnetic pickup, although I found nearly the same curve worked well for a Barbera-bridge fiddle and an Ithaca Strings electric viola.

While the impedance question is not trivial, it is far from the complete solution, as with perfect matching you still do not have a natural sound, by definition. And the speaker and amp being used adds more color that may not be appropriate. So EQ is essential, and it can be dramatic. Caution not necessary, try large shifts to see where the sound you like resides.

[almeriastrings]

If you are getting a really bad sound from an active BSS DI, I'd carefully check the rest of the signal chain and EQ setting on the console. BSS are a high grade DI and usually work just fine with K&K transducers. Test the signal chain if possible with some other instruments that have passive transducers, and also check your mandolin straight into a acoustic amp for comparison.

Whether you need a preamp with onboard EQ is largely down to how good the channel EQ is on the console. If it is good, you really just need a buffer amp/DI to provide a suitable input impedance and convert to balanced. Any EQ (including parametric and notch filtering) can then be done 'in console'. If you only have basic EQ on your console, then a full fledged EQ option on a preamp/DI is probably essential.

[varmonter]

I have been through the same issues with kk pups.
They are great natural sounding pups. But should
Not be plugged into anything that does not have
A 1mohm 1 megaohm input impedance. You will
Have to research your bss di to see what that is.
The baggs stuff i beleive is all 10mohm. Which
Will sound ok but not as good as 1mohm.
This is why kk preamps match so good with kk
Pups. I once had it explained to me this way.
If you take a firehose and try to force the water
Through a garden hose your going to lose alot
Of water..like stuffing a 10 lb pig in a 5 lb sack.
Once your impedance is matched you can work
On the eq to dial in your sound. I have a twin in my ellis a and plugged directly in sounds terrible.
But through a 1mohm set felix preamp its wonderful.. i also play it through the kk pure xlr preamp at times and it sounds good as well.
Going from line level (1/4 inch jack) to mic level
(Xlr cable) helps immeasurably.. good luck .After
Learning to play and getting the songs down i find
Playing with equipment and searching for that grail
The most fun... .must be flying my geek flag.. :)

[eelcobeckers]

I use my other mandolin, a flatiron with a MISI pickup as well as my martin 00018 with a highlander pickup and they all sound great through the same System. I tried EQ the mandolin but to no avail, so it must be the KandK pinkup. It seems the preamp is fhe solution so will give that a go! Thanks for the info

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks varmonter, that explanation actually makes perfect sense!��

[pops1]

I use my other mandolin, a flatiron with a MISI pickup as well as my martin 00018 with a highlander pickup and they all sound great through the same System. I tried EQ the mandolin but to no avail, so it must be the KandK pinkup. It seems the preamp is fhe solution so will give that a go! Thanks for the info

I am not sure about the highlander, but the MISI already has a preamp and is designed to go into the P.A.

[eelcobeckers]

The highlander has a preamp too, so the reason The mandolin sounds bad must be because the the K&K has no preamp. Time to start saving up again!

[almeriastrings]

Not necessarily.

We need to understand the terminology being used here.

Mixing desks have preamps built in. That is what pre-amplifies the mic level signal before additional processing (EQ then power amp). This is normally on a balanced XLR. The problem is that K&K's put out an UNBALANCED signal and also require a very high impedance input. Mic level XLR's normally offer only around 600 Ohms. Your pickup is looking for at least 1 million Ohms (1 Meg).

So - directly incompatible.... however... if you use a DI box that has a 1 Meg input impedance, this a) Matches the transducer nicely and b) Converts from unbalanced to balanced output. Result: now compatible. All the gain you need is available from the preamp on the mixing desk....

I do not use anything other than 'simple' DI boxes for passive transducers. Mostly Orchid Electronics or Triton Audio, though I have a couple of Radials too. The Orchids are 1 Meg, the Triton is a whopping 7.5 Meg (but is not necessary in most cases). The output from these goes into the XLR's of my consoles. All the EQ is done there.

Your active BSS DI is 1 Meg so should be fine. If it is not, there is a problem somewhere. Faulty transducers, bad install, faulty DI box... needs to be tracked down.

[Steve Ostrander]

I have K&K twin installed in my American FF that I run directly into my Fishman Loudbox Artist. It sounds great. It sounds OK through my Blues Jr but not as good as the Fishman.

[almeriastrings]

I have K&K twin installed in my American FF that I run directly into my Fishman Loudbox Artist. It sounds great. It sounds OK through my Blues Jr but not as good as the Fishman.

Yes - because your Loudbox Artist has a high impedance preamp built-in that is specifically designed to accept piezo's directly. It also has 'acoustic' configuration speakers (woofer + tweeter, as in a hi-fi cabinet).

The Blues Jr does not, and is designed to accept magnetic pickups. It also uses a single loudspeaker.

[eelcobeckers]

Some interesting bits of advice there. I suppose before i buy a preamp i might mess sround with a few DI boxes. I'm have 5 different ones, both active and passive, including some better quality ones like the radials and the BSS. I suppose that will guve me an idea where the problem might lie. I dont think the pickup is faulty though. It works fine,just sounds bad!

[varmonter]

Eelcobeckers are you going out of the bss di with a 1/4 inch
Cord to the mixer or a mic(xlr) cord?

[Astro]

If you plan to gig around town with it, there is some advantage to going the preamp/eq route. The advantage is you can determane what eq settings sound best and take it with you to every House PA so you can go with a pretty flat mix on the house mixer and you dont have to figure it out on the spot the night of the gig and for each different venue. You arent so dependent on their sound man (if they even have one) to figure it out.

I use an old Fishman Platinum Pro EQ preamp (impedance of 10mohm).

I dial down the trebles and highest mids almost completely and the bass significantly. Maybe if the impedence were one instead of 10 the EQ settings wouldn't be so drastic, I don't know. But what I get with the EQ/preamp sounds good and mellow the way I like it.

Also I have the added advantage of having the mandolins volume knob at my feet. Once the band really kicks in after sound check I often need to reach down and roll the volume up just to be heard in the mix. If I didnt have that, I would be screwed. Even when we do get a soundman at a venue, most of the time when you need an adjustment and look for him, he is gone. Few actually stay at the board and tweak things all night.

[pops1]

I use a Redeye and very rarely have to do anything with EQ, it has the 1 meg ohm input.

[capohk]

I wouldn't use a SBT type pickup without a pre-amp. They don't sound as good. That said, K&K pickups sound good by most people's standards when they are working properly. JJB pickups are essentially the same design, and also sound good when properly installed and functional.

If the pickup sounds terrible, it would suggest as others have stated that there is a problem somewhere in the signal chain. If you have eliminated cables and boxes, I would find a dental mirror or a small inspection mirror and have a look inside at the pickup itself. The two piezo discs should be super-glued underneath or just forward of the ends of the bridge feet. Sometimes double sided tape is used and this can become less than attached. As your mando is an oval hole, it should be reasonably easy to see if it is installed properly. It's easy enough to check the connections at the endpin jack too, in case you've got some funky solder joints or a grounding issue.


On the impedance issue, there seems to be equal weight of opinion on either side of the "whether it matters" debate. I generally like the tone from my Red-Eye in any setup, I struggle sometimes to find a good sound out of my Baggs Venue on it's own in the same situations so if I'm going into house PA or an amp with EQ, I'll use the Red-Eye, and if I'm straight into a powered speaker, then I use the Venue and run my Boss TU2 ahead of it to give the Venue 1meg input. This has been pretty successful for me. The buffer in the Boss pedal does the impedance matching and seems to help dial out the fake zingy sound I sometimes get.

Hope that helps, best of luck

Matt

[varmonter]

Plus one on the transducer inspection.the bass side transducer could be just dangling..

Also if your looking at high end di boxes the kk pure
Xlr preamp is also a di and is affordable in comparison to say a countryman di..plus you get
3 bands of eq at your fingertips and 1 mohm II.

[Folkmusician.com]

What color is the strap button on the endpin jack?

Do you know the year of the mandolin?

I ask, because K&K pickups are relatively new with Eastman. In the past they had Reso-Coil. And previous to 2012, they had no factory installed pickup.
Also is this a sunburst version of the 614? Some of these went to dealers with no pickups installed (I received a couple last year).

So we have earliest models, no pickup
Then Reso-Coil with an XLR out
Then Reso-Coil with a 1/4 endpin jack
Finally K&K that uses the Fishman SwitchJack

And then a few more random mandolins with no pickups at all thrown in for good measure. :)

Just wanted to be sure what we are dealing with here.

[almeriastrings]

I wouldn't use a SBT type pickup without a pre-amp.

You cannot physically use one without a preamp. Try it. Plug it straight into a power amp, for example...

The issue is where the preamp is in the signal chain. On thing it is generally worth avoiding is 'stacking' preamps, i.e. two high gain preamps in series.

A preamp does not have to be an external box. In many cases they are built into the mixer, or into an acoustic amp. The main thing is to get a suitable impedance AND level match.

Robert raises some interesting points... definitely worth being 100% certain what is in this mandolin (and checking the install). In one case I had a bad sounding pair of transducers, and the cause was they were wired out-of-phase, i.e., were cancelling each other partly out.

[eelcobeckers]

What color is the strap button on the endpin jack?

Do you know the year of the mandolin?

I ask, because K&K pickups are relatively new with Eastman. In the past they had Reso-Coil. And previous to 2012, they had no factory installed pickup.
Also is this a sunburst version of the 614? Some of these went to dealers with no pickups installed (I received a couple last year).

So we have earliest models, no pickup
Then Reso-Coil with an XLR out
Then Reso-Coil with a 1/4 endpin jack
Finally K&K that uses the Fishman SwitchJack

And then a few more random mandolins with no pickups at all thrown in for good measure. :)

Just wanted to be sure what we are dealing with here.



Hi robert, the mandolin is not sunburst, and has a blue endpin jack .the serial number is 10746374 will look up year of manufacture shortly. Does the colour of the endpin tell you what pickup is installed?

[Folkmusician.com]

OK, part of the puzzle solved!

The Blue Endpin Jack is the later Schertler Reso-Coil install (after they switched from XLR). That pickup operates at a mic level and can be ran directly into a good mic preamp. It will still work with a acoustic preamp as well.

So basically, your mandolin has a mic in it, not a piezo. :)

This will lend itself to a fuller tone, which will need more drastic EQ to clean up and keep from being muddy. It needs to be attacked with parametric EQ.

I looked up your direct box, and at first thought it would be perfect, but I see that it it is an unbalanced XLR input). So this somewhat complicates things. It doesn't look like this is really meant for mics. You want to be running the mandolin into a mic level input. I would suggest dropping a mirror in the mandolins and trying to identify how the jack is wired. Reso-coils are balanced pickups, and if the jack is wired that way, it would be best to run balanced right into the mic input on the mixer.

Without studying it, I am not sure how your direct box handles the 1/4" input. It may be fine to run it that way, maybe not. At any rate, neither input is balanced. Not a deal breaker in itself, but not ideal either. Balanced or not, it still needs to be a mic level input.

Which mixer are you using? Ideally, you will have a few bands of of parametric EQ to shape the tone.

I know this is starting to get confusing (and it really is).

1. despite, the 1/4 jack, just keep in mind, that this is a mic in your mandolin.
2. The pickup should be balanced, but may or may not be wired that way to the jack.
3. Assuming it is wired correctly to a stereo endpin, it is simply a matter of getting a balanced cable that goes from 1/4" stereo to XLR, and plugging it directly into the mic input on the mixer.
4. Play with the EQ until you get a tone you are happy with.

[almeriastrings]

I am familiar with that DI. Bad match all round for the Resocoil.

Explains a lot....yes, a 1/4" TRS balanced jack to XLR straight into the mic input XLR of your console should do it. The Schertler documentation on these is clear as mud, but it ought to be balanced on the jack....

[Cheryl Watson]

I had passive K&Ks installed in a high end mandolin and my high end OM Martin. The K&K sounds fabulous with my mandolin. I run it through either a Tone Bone (single channel model) preamp or a single Fire Eye Red Eye preamp. The Red Eye is more transparent by a good margin.

However, my Martin plugged in (it sounds GREAT acoustically) sounds TERRIBLE. Not only is the tone brittle and not transparent or acoustic sounding, it makes my own acoustic speakers and the church's speakers where I play buzz/sizzle. Turning the bass all the way off, reduces the buzz somewhat, but it sounds even worse. I've tried it without a preamp, with the Tone Bone, the Red Eye, with a parametric equalizer, a very detailed graphic equalizer, and a high end DI box, and nothing made the sound better. I ended up having go go back to a mic for a nice warm, clean acoustic sound, but then the mic is prone to feedback at higher volume levels, of course. The one place where it sounds OK, is through a friend's BOSE system (no preamp) with the right setting (Martin D28) on the board that is offered with the BOSE. One friend who used to do professional stage sound all over the world, said that something is wrong in the signal chain. But, then why does my mandolin sound so great and my guitar so lousy when I use the exact same setup? I am so confused.

I had the luthier who installed both K&Ks check out my guitar pickup to see what might be wrong. He could find nothing wrong with the installation or the wiring. He tried it again through his amp and it did not buzz/ sizzle, but it still sounds brittle. I'm about to pull my hair out, but instead, I think I will have that pickup taken out of that guitar. I probably should call K&K.

So anyway, just so you know that you are not the only player going through this. It's just that it's my guitar that is the problem with the K&K, not my mandolin. So perhaps either you need to buy a Fire Eye Red Eye (I use the balanced XLR out) or another good preamp or, there is something wrong with the installation or it is a defective pickup.

[Groundcoat]

Cheryl, I have K&K pickups in both my mandolin and guitar and both sound great without the need of any kind of preamp or fancy EQ. I strongly suggest you give their technical service department a call. I had a slight problem with my mandolin and they resolved the problem perfectly. They are very easy to deal with. Call them before you spend any money on a preamp or a mic or whatever. Don't pull your hair out, getting the right sound is just a process. Just think of all of the neat things you'll learn along the way.

[Folkmusician.com]

The Schertler documentation on these is clear as mud, but it ought to be balanced on the jack....

Exactly my thoughts after checking their website! :)

[eelcobeckers]

OK, part of the puzzle solved!

The Blue Endpin Jack is the later Schertler Reso-Coil install (after they switched from XLR). That pickup operates at a mic level and can be ran directly into a good mic preamp. It will still work with a acoustic preamp as well.

So basically, your mandolin has a mic in it, not a piezo. :)

This will lend itself to a fuller tone, which will need more drastic EQ to clean up and keep from being muddy. It needs to be attacked with parametric EQ.

I looked up your direct box, and at first thought it would be perfect, but I see that it it is an unbalanced XLR input). So this somewhat complicates things. It doesn't look like this is really meant for mics. You want to be running the mandolin into a mic level input. I would suggest dropping a mirror in the mandolins and trying to identify how the jack is wired. Reso-coils are balanced pickups, and if the jack is wired that way, it would be best to run balanced right into the mic input on the mixer.

Without studying it, I am not sure how your direct box handles the 1/4" input. It may be fine to run it that way, maybe not. At any rate, neither input is balanced. Not a deal breaker in itself, but not ideal either. Balanced or not, it still needs to be a mic level input.

Which mixer are you using? Ideally, you will have a few bands of of parametric EQ to shape the tone.

I know this is starting to get confusing (and it really is).

1. despite, the 1/4 jack, just keep in mind, that this is a mic in your mandolin.
2. The pickup should be balanced, but may or may not be wired that way to the jack.
3. Assuming it is wired correctly to a stereo endpin, it is simply a matter of getting a balanced cable that goes from 1/4" stereo to XLR, and plugging it directly into the mic input on the mixer.
4. Play with the EQ until you get a tone you are happy with.



Hii robert you are a wealth of information!! I'm beginning to understand why the problem is there. To answer your question i use the mackie DL16 digital desk which has fantastic parametric eq. I have a focusrite mic preamp in my little home studio do you think its worth trying that with the mandolin? Thanks again for all the help

[Folkmusician.com]

The Focusrite Preamp should work great! Just a question of whether or not you want to drag it to gigs. I would absolutely test it out at home though.

It looks like your mixer has 4 bands of parametric per channel. Perfect! The Focusrite Preamp should blow away the Mackie Onxy preamps, but you should do just fine direct into the Mackie.

Now.... We are still not 100% how your jack is wired or even exactly what is in your mandolin. I am not sure, but Schertler may have changed these at some point. The specs don't seem the same as I recall and there has been a change in price (lower now).

[Folkmusician.com]

OK, I found some old specs and they are what I recall (1500ohms and balanced)

Old Specs:
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS

mechanical decoupling butterworth 2nd order, Q=0.6
nominal impedance 1500 ohm / 1000 Hz
frequency response 80 Hz to 14 kHz (+/-3dB)
equivalent output noise 139dB - 145dB typical
sensitivity 20mV/g
sensitivity (on instrument) ca. -28dBu
tmperature range -20¡C to +70¡C
contacts all hard gold 0.5um plated
connection XLR balanced or 1/4" jack on request
cable length 0.26m or other lengths on request

RESOCOIL is designed for musicians who need an internal solution fixed
inside the instrumentÕs sound box.

This sensor delivers the warm natural sound typically found in SchertlerÕs
DYN family of external contact microphones, with the added convenience of
a permanent installation that leaves no visible holes on the instrument.

RESOCOIL is suitable for use with classical type guitars, mandolin family
instruments, ukulele and resonator guitars.
----------------


Currently on the website, they are listing 380ohms, but they still list the Banjo version at 1500ohms. Not sure if this was a mistake, or it really is 380ohms now. Their warning: "Connection in to a high impedance input may cause volume/signal loss" leads me to believe, that could be a mistake.


New:
Nominal impedance 380 ohm @ 1 KHz
Frequency Response 40 Hz to 12 kHz (+/- 3 dB)
Dynamic range 139 dB, 145 dB typical
Sensitivity (on instrument) ca. -25 dB
Sensitivity (theoretical) 20 mV/g
Mechanical decoupling Butterworth 2nd order
Equivalent output noise 16 dB/0 dB = 0.002%
Contacts All hard gold plated 0.5 mm
Connection
XLR balanced
Jack unbalanced
Connection in to a high impedance input
may cause volume/signal loss

[eelcobeckers]

Yes i saw the specs on the schertler website, it was interesting to read that connection to a high impedance unit could result in loss of volume/signal. I have two gigs this weekend so i'll try 1. Through a mic preamp 2. Direct into desk and 3. With a passive DI to see how the tone changes. There's hope yet! Thanks everyone ��

[almeriastrings]

You should be fine into your Mackie DL preamps. Honestly, for live use there is almost nothing in it between the preamps in that and the Focusrite. The Onyx pres are pretty decent.

The lack of info on how these are wired on the Schertler site is disappointing. They need to address this.

Try first with a standard TRS to male XLR cable. If that works - fine.

If not, try an unbalanced jack to XLR.

MAKE SURE +48V IS OFF.

[eelcobeckers]

hi almeriastrings, quick question, you mentioned to make sure 48V phantom power is off? We use several DI's and condenser mics that depend on 48V to keep them going. will it damage or afffect the Scherlter pickup? What if i put it through a passive Di first? or is there another way around it? many thanks!

[almeriastrings]

hi almeriastrings, quick question, you mentioned to make sure 48V phantom power is off? We use several DI's and condenser mics that depend on 48V to keep them going. will it damage or afffect the Scherlter pickup? What if i put it through a passive Di first? or is there another way around it? many thanks!

If the Schertler is balanced via xlr, normally, they would be fine with phantom on.... however phantom power and a TRS jack is a bad combination as you can get 'shorting' and unbalanced application across the jack terminals. If it is unbalanced, then applying phantom power can destroy the pickup, the preamp, or both....

A transformer isolator should help. This another area where the manufacturers website is seriously deficient. The situation with phantom needs to be spelled out clearly. It isn't.

[fidlplr1979]

Piezo type pickups are very high impedance so to go through a passive DI and into the PA will result in very low quality sound, You require a high Z input preamp such as the Para-DI to make the impedances match. Good preamps do much more than amplify. I use K&K in both of the mandolins I use in the country band I play in and really like them.
Dave
This is the problem. It's a matter of impedance matching. Its also the nature of these surface-mount pickups like the K and K and the Shertler (which my 615 has) that they are going to pick up a lot of lower-mids in the frequency spectrum. The Shertler is actually a dynamic mic (which I prefer) and I don't use a DI at all just a Fishman PreQ. These are only about 100$ and they work great for boosting the signal at the same time as letting you do some EQ. But I go directly into a low-z 1/4" input on my PA.

[fidlplr1979]

hi almeriastrings, quick question, you mentioned to make sure 48V phantom power is off? We use several DI's and condenser mics that depend on 48V to keep them going. will it damage or afffect the Scherlter pickup? What if i put it through a passive Di first? or is there another way around it? many thanks!
Anything put in between the signal chain from the phantom-power source such as a DI or preamp(especially a 48v powered one) will protect the pickup from the 48v. I have a Shertler on my 615 and I have used phantom pwr with no problems but to be safe like Algeria said I'd avoid direct phantom power to your mandolin pickup. I usually go with a Fishman PreQ II in the signal chain (which requires power) and allows me to EQ out some of those mids. Notice I said EQ (out), it's much better to take out offending frequencies than to add the ones that are missing, so instead of adding treble exclusively when you EQ try pulling out from 500-1.2khz and cut everything below about 250hz. Remember high-pass everything. if you can

[eelcobeckers]

I have a gig tonight, so the plan is to try a few different setups. I'll start with a K&K preamp i borrowed, then try a little ART mic preamp, and finally direct into the desk with 1/4 inch jack. Will post results tomorrow! Wish me luck!

[eelcobeckers]

Anything put in between the signal chain from the phantom-power source such as a DI or preamp(especially a 48v powered one) will protect the pickup from the 48v. I have a Shertler on my 615 and I have used phantom pwr with no problems but to be safe like Algeria said I'd avoid direct phantom power to your mandolin pickup. I usually go with a Fishman PreQ II in the signal chain (which requires power) and allows me to EQ out some of those mids. Notice I said EQ (out), it's much better to take out offending frequencies than to add the ones that are missing, so instead of adding treble exclusively when you EQ try pulling out from 500-1.2khz and cut everything below about 250hz. Remember high-pass everything. if you can


Thanks for the tips regarding which EQ to notch out and to use HP filters. Looking forward to trying them out tonight!

[Folkmusician.com]

so instead of adding treble exclusively when you EQ try pulling out from 500-1.2khz and cut everything below about 250hz. Remember high-pass everything. if you can

Agreed, cut instead of boost is the way to go, and much of the muddiness is from the low frequencies. The low G string on mandolin is 196hz). There is a little bit going on below that, but for the sake of cleaning up the mix within a live band, you almost always want to cut all of the instruments near their frequency ranges. If you are rolling off, vs. cutting, you can start a little higher. Also try to give the mandolin a little space by EQing the other instruments.

A great mix will give each instrument its own space. The last thing you want is all the instruments having a full wide tone. It will sound muddy.

Here is an example of how EQ might look:

158047


158046

[Billkwando]

Agreed, cut instead of boost is the way to go, and much of the muddiness is from the low frequencies. The low G string on mandolin is 196hz). There is a little bit going on below that, but for the sake of cleaning up the mix within a live band, you almost always want to cut all of the instruments near their frequency ranges. If you are rolling off, vs. cutting, you can start a little higher. Also try to give the mandolin a little space by EQing the other instruments.

A great mix will give each instrument its own space. The last thing you want is all the instruments having a full wide tone. It will sound muddy.

Here is an example of how EQ might look:

158047


158046

As someone who find EQ to be a total mystery (other than "use your ears and hope for the best") this is super helpful to me! :)

[lenf12]

[QUOTE=Folkmusician.com;1581816]A great mix will give each instrument its own space. The last thing you want is all the instruments having a full wide tone. It will sound muddy.

I wish more live sound "engineers" understood this concept...

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[Folkmusician.com]

As someone who find EQ to be a total mystery (other than "use your ears and hope for the best") this is super helpful to me!

The key concept here, is that individual instruments sacrifice for the good of the whole mix, and vocals come first. If you solo an instrument in a proper mix, it will tend to sound thin (and it is). But within the group it sounds great. This is not critical with a duet. A three piece band can put less effort into it as well, but as more instrument are added, it becomes crucial. Especially when you get multiple instruments that have major overlaps in frequencies. Say two guitars. If these are EQed to emphasize separate frequencies, it will sound much cleaner and professional.

I am with Len. I understand that most musicians, don't give this a whole lot of thought, but it is amazing how many Soundmen mostly ignore EQ as well.

Once EQ is conquered.... Dynamics are up next. Compressors are great when used tastefully/lightly. They can be set with a high threshold so it is just catching the peaks, more like a limiter and not sucking the dynamics out of acoustic instruments or becoming boomy. If your board has em, dig in. :)

[lenf12]

While this is all critical to playing "plugged in", much of what Robert says above can also be applied to open jams or playing song circles and around the campfire where there's no amplification. You are not using any EQ so you have to accept the sounds of each instrument as is, but dynamics are the primary ingredient that each player does have control of and can use to enhance the overall mix. Knowing when to lay back (during vocals) vs. playing out (when it's your turn), mandolins playing on the lower G and D strings vs. on the A and E strings, silence vs. playing constantly. All of the little dynamic tricks in the tool box can be used to get a satisfying acoustic mix if you are listening to the ensemble vs. listening to yourself. Play to the quietest instrument ("individual instruments sacrifice for the good of the mix" as Robert states above) and usually it's the guitar in an acoustic setting. Sorry for expanding the scope of this thread (OT?) but it seemed apropos.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[rfd]

...
I had the luthier who installed both K&Ks check out my guitar pickup to see what might be wrong. He could find nothing wrong with the installation or the wiring. He tried it again through his amp and it did not buzz/ sizzle, but it still sounds brittle. I'm about to pull my hair out, but instead, I think I will have that pickup taken out of that guitar. I probably should call K&K....


yep, either an improper transducer installation (MUST be in a proper location and use of a gel based high viscosity CYA glue), or a bad transducer (haven't had one from k&k yet, and i've long since lost count of the dozens i've installed over the years/decades).

[lflngpicker]

I owned this same Eastman mandolin and also had the same pickup in a Morris a4. The K &K mini is a very natural sounding pickup. I would suggest that it is the amplifier output that is your issue. If you have a decent acoustic amp, such as a Fishman Loudbox, it should sound great plugged straight in. Otherwise, you should get a direct box with EQ so that you can trim the bass and cut the mids a bit to bring out the woody tone of your mandolin. Don't get rid of that nice Eastman mandolin, in my humble assessment.

[Bill Kammerzell]

I have had builder installed K&K pickups, in a number of mandolins. Most recently a Breedlove Legacy OF. I think they have all sounded great. I use a Taylor V cable for on/off and volume control and I play into a Fender Acoustasonic 150 amp. This is as good a sound as I've ever gotten. I have added a K&K preamp to cut out a lot of pick noise, but all told this a is a great, amplified acoustic sound. I had a Fender Electric guitar amp, but did not like the sound at all. Acoustasonic is a really great model for acoustic instruments. May be whatever amp you're using. I'd look at that.