The rules according to Bill Monroe

[humblemex]

So what were the rules of bluegrass according to Big Mon? I'm thinking strict instrumentation (mandolin, fiddle, guitar, banjo, bass, and sometimes Dobro), tight three- or four-part harmonies, traditional material, cowboy hats, and never a note outside the diatonic scale except a raised fourth now and then. Does that about cover it?

[CarlM]

Peter Rowan tells the story of singing his song the Bluegrass Mambo on stage with Bill. Afterwards he was informed angrily "That ain't no part of no bluegrass music Son, That ain't no part of nuthin'." So apparently the Bluegrass Mambo is not allowed.

[Spruce]

Peter Rowan tells the story of singing his song the Bluegrass Mambo on stage with Bill. Afterwards he was informed angrily "That ain't no part of no bluegrass music Son, That ain't no part of nuthin'."

I'd kill to have a recording of Mr. Bill uttering that famous phrase...
I looked hard and never did find any utterance...oh well...

I did find a great interview from 1965 or so, and lifted it for my destruction of "Master of Bluegrass"...
You can hear it at the beginning and end on this track (https://bruceharvie.bandcamp.com/track/old-ebenezer-scrooge)...

From memory, Mr. Monroe says "real hot licks from the fiddle don't need to be in it, you don't need drums in it, you don't need a Dobro in it, and hot guitar, you don't need that in it...."

:))

[DavidKOS]

Peter Rowan tells the story of singing his song the Bluegrass Mambo on stage with Bill. Afterwards he was informed angrily "That ain't no part of no bluegrass music Son, That ain't no part of nuthin'." So apparently the Bluegrass Mambo is not allowed.

I heard that story but it in context of the use of the dobro in the Flat and Scruggs group. I guess it gets around.

[Miltown]

You gotta wear a hat.

[doublestoptremolo]

I think Monroe played lots of notes outside the diatonic scale.

[humblemex]

OK, strike the dobro.

[johnhgayjr]

Just do this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX7yqStTdhc

[Spruce]

You gotta wear a hat.

Maybe not on Sunday... ;)

[Steve Ostrander]

From memory, Mr. Monroe says "real hot licks from the fiddle don't need to be in it, you don't need drums in it, you don't need a Dobro in it, and hot guitar, you don't need that in it...."

I'm guessing accordion and bagpipes are on the list as well...

[humblemex]

Except that Sally Ann Forrester actually played accordion in his band for a few years in the early '40s.

[CarlM]

I'd kill to have a recording of Mr. Bill uttering that famous phrase...

I heard that story but it in context of the use of the dobro in the Flat and Scruggs group. I guess it gets around.

I heard Peter tell the story on stage at Merlefest in 2007. He then did the song in question. Monroes' reaction was well justified. I tried to find you tube of the story or song but could not find it anywhere.

[Tobin]

OK, strike the dobro.

That's always sound advice. Strike it, then stomp on it and set it on fire. :)

(Even if Bill's "ain't no part of nuthin" comment wasn't about dobros, it should have been.)

[Capt. E]

And not just any hat, a western style, most likely...can you imagine what he would have said if you came on stage with a bowler or a top-hat or one of those things Frank Sinatra wore?

[Capt. E]

It would most probably be back-up, certainly not a lead instrument. I kind of wonder what Bill thought of Cajun music.

[Mandoplumb]

Except that Sally Ann Forrester actually played accordion in his band for a few years in the early '40s.

That was before "Bluegrass" as we know it and before Monroe had the sound he was after. Stringbean played banjo when Flatt was hired, after Scruggs and his sound jelled I doubt he would have used an accordion or claw hammer banjo.

[Toni Schula]

I'm guessing accordion and bagpipes are on the list as well...
Well I heard a Bluegrassband with bagpipes many years ago ;)

[Ivan Kelsall]

From humblemex - "....and sometimes Dobro" - never !!. Bill Monroe disliked Dobro & felt that it had no part in 'his music'. Personally,much of the time,i'm on Bill Monroe's side,but i certainly liked Rob Ickes contribution the the ''Blue Highway'' band. I don't dislike the Dobro,but for me,it's very 'player dependent'. I O.D'd on Gerry Douglas a long while back ( no disrespect intended ),it just seemed as though he was on every Bluegrass CD i bought.

Bill Monroe's preferred line up was Banjo / Mandolin / Guitar / Fiddle - 2 if he could get them, & bass. That was the 'classic' line up of the first 'true' Bluegrass band. Only on what BM termed the '' Bluegrass Gospel Quartet '' songs were some of the instruments omitted. I think he got it right,
Ivan;)

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Always play the guitar with the open B-string (in the G-chord). Look sharp, but never smile! I believe Roland White played the G-chord like Clarence, didn't he?

[Tobin]

And not just any hat, a western style, most likely...can you imagine what he would have said if you came on stage with a bowler or a top-hat or one of those things Frank Sinatra wore?

Bill Monroe collaborated with John Hartford on occasion. I wonder what he had to say about John's hat?

http://charmainelanham.com/files/2013/05/1_bill-lesson.jpg

[NursingDaBlues]

My memory isn’t what it used to be, so I apologize up front if I’m way off base. But for some reason I think I either read or heard that Bill Monroe did not believe in including certain instruments on gospel/spiritual music. Maybe banjo was one of the instruments? Quite possibly someone else may have said this and I’m just attributing it to Bill Monroe. I don’t know, so I’m asking.

[humblemex]

You might be thinking of Flatt & Scruggs. Earl always played guitar on the gospel tunes. There might be exceptions but I'm not aware of them.

[Bill Kammerzell]

And not just any hat, a western style, most likely...can you imagine what he would have said if you came on stage with a bowler or a top-hat or one of those things Frank Sinatra wore?

Wasn't he fond of Stetson's?

[Willie Poole]

It is sure plain to see that a hell of a lot of people don`t know what "real bluegrass" is....I see bands with a fellow sitting on a wooden box keeping time, what would B.M say about that....Most only care if their music sells and not what it really sounds like, as long as it has a tempo that makes you tap your foot then they think that is OK, on a lot of recordings the instruments drown out the vocals I guess because the singers can`t really sing worth a hoot...As far as a Dobro...UGH....:crying:

Willie

[Mandolin Cafe]

It is sure plain to see that a hell of a lot of people don`t know what "real bluegrass" is....I see bands with a fellow sitting on a wooden box keeping time, what would B.M say about that....Most only care if their music sells and not what it really sounds like, as long as it has a tempo that makes you tap your foot then they think that is OK, on a lot of recordings the instruments drown out the vocals I guess because the singers can`t really sing worth a hoot...As far as a Dobro...UGH....:crying:

Willie

The bluegrass police have arrived. Flamekeepers!

"Ya'll up agin' the wall. You with the instrument that appears to have an electrical plug, hands behind yer back for handcuffin'. Next thing we know there'll be a damn accordion in the band."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HltBQIUmiCo

Don't make us go get those videos and audio recordings of Monroe with drums, organs and other non-bluegrass instruments. And about that time he had a tenor banjo player in the group... fake news, I suppose. Carry on.

:))

157535

[humblemex]

Really amazed there are so many people here who believe that bluegrass is *only* what Bill says it is. Guess that means you don't like Sam Bush, David Grisman, Tony Rice, Bela Fleck, Alison Krauss, or Jerry Douglas. But what the heck would hacks like that know about bluegrass? Your loss.

[humblemex]

Administrator: Where's the "like" button? Thanks.

[billkilpatrick]

I'm trying to imagine Duke Ellington or Elvis or Johan Sebastian Bach or anyone else associated with a genre saying "That ain't no part of …" blah-blah-blah. The trouble with art is it's got a life of its own and anyone who tries to stick in aspic gets stuck.

[mrmando]

There are lots and lots of non-diatonic notes in bluegrass. There's frequent use of the minor pentatonic scale. Richard Greene and Chubby Wise, among others, played fiddle for Monroe and were never above using chromatic alterations when they could get away with it.

[mrmando]

Administrator: Where's the "like" button? Thanks.

Try the "Thanks" link; it amounts to the same thing.

[mrmando]

Really amazed there are so many people here who believe that bluegrass is *only* what Bill says it is. Guess that means you don't like Sam Bush, David Grisman, Tony Rice, Bela Fleck, Alison Krauss, or Jerry Douglas. But what the heck would hacks like that know about bluegrass? Your loss.

If there are people here who actually do believe that, it's a small minority.

To me, bluegrass is more about timing, rhythm, and "drive" than about the specific instruments used. There's a local band here in Seattle that's been around for a few years; has bluegrass instrumentation; looks like a bluegrass band; plays the same venues as bluegrass bands; but doesn't understand bluegrass timing and consequently sounds nothing like bluegrass. There are people who use the term "bluegrass" for any kind of acoustic string band music, from Old Crow Medicine Show to Cajun/Creole to jazz manouche, and they make me glad I do not support capital punishment.

You can play old-time music or other styles on the same instruments used in a bluegrass band. And, if you know what you're doing, you can play bluegrass on an electric bass, piano, accordion, pennywhistle, dobro, clarinet, harmonica, or drum kit. Maybe even a nose flute.

[multidon]

Well, let me start out by saying that I'm no Bluegrass expert. Not even so much of a fan. Much of what I know about it I learned here. But based on what I know, I don't think Bill Monroe realized he was inventing a whole new genre early on. I think he thought he was playing old time string band music his way, up tempo with drive, vocals the way he liked them, and using virtuoso musicians who could solo and keep up with him. That's my theory anyways. Other people started imitating the style and the world called it "Bluegrass". When he did realize he had something new and revolutionary, he attempted to codify it.

I like the comparison with J.S. Bach. The Baroque period of music history had a great number of "rules". Bach stretched these rules as far as they would go. After he came along, the only thing left to do was to have a quantum leap to the next musical style. So Bach lead directly to the Classical period, as Beethoven (another rule stretcher) lead directly to the Romantic. And so it goes in music history. Always someone who takes it as far as it will go. Revolutionaries who bend and finally break the so called "rules".

Did Monroe really think he should tell everyone else how to play the style he invented? Did he really intend for every other Bluegrass band to be clones of his, with the same clothes, hats, instruments, and set list? Personally, I doubt it.

And as far as Dobro is concerned, well, a Weissenborn is kind of a kissing cousin, and Dr. Ralph Stanley had one prominently featured in his band when I saw him years ago. He has a pretty good BG pedigree, don't you all agree? But Bill didn't have no durn Weissenborn! So that ain't no part of nothin'...right?

[mrmando]

Dr. Ralph preferred the term "mountain music"; he didn't play Scruggs-style banjo and was more willing than Monroe to experiment with instrumentation. Still, he and his band played the mountain music so well that most folks couldn't tell it apart from bluegrass.

[Mandoplumb]

The Stanley Brothers were bluegrass, at least by the time Carter died IMHO. After that Ralph slowly became more and more mountain music. Listen to the Stanley Brothers sing Old Death, then listen to Ralph moan Old Death on the OBWAY. You can see how much Ralph regressed in his style.

[JeffD]

Did Monroe really think he should tell everyone else how to play the style he invented? Did he really intend for every other Bluegrass band to be clones of his, with the same clothes, hats, instruments, and set list? Personally, I doubt it.

In a way I believe he did. Saying it from the other side is less controlling sounding. Something like "you can do what ever you want, really, you can. But it is only if you do this and this, that it can legitimately be called bluegrass music".

Now, what you or I or Ralph Stanley or Mike Seeger or Marty Stuart or Tim Rice, or Sam Bush calls bluegrass, that's fine. But not in all cases would Mr. Monroe call it bluegrass.

Its not really about stifling innovation as it is about terminology and nomenclature, but we argue terminology and nomenclature all the time too so its all good.

[marbelizer]

Please remember that when you're playing bluegrass, or a close derivative, you're not playing "songs" or" tunes" you're playing "numbers". ;)

[Tobin]

Did Monroe really think he should tell everyone else how to play the style he invented? Did he really intend for every other Bluegrass band to be clones of his, with the same clothes, hats, instruments, and set list? Personally, I doubt it.
I seem to recall people who met him saying that he told them to find their own sound. From those stories, I got the impression that he didn't particularly want people to copy his style exactly.

[GeoMandoAlex]

going way back into the foggy memory banks, I recall listening to a Garcia and Grisman concert on cassette tape. Between songs, I believe it was Grisman, said that Bill Monroe said to learn bluegrass (or any music) and make it your own. In a nutshell, what Tobin has said.

Grisman went on to say the Garcia made "Dead music" and Garcia replied, "David made Dawg music".

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Humblemex - ".....There might be exceptions but I'm not aware of them.". The original recording of ''I Saw The Light'' had Earl Scruggs ( i think ?) playing banjo on it,
Ivan

https://youtu.be/kyIEkZr4Dcw

Fro mrmando - "...he didn't play Scruggs-style banjo ...". I've played ''Scruggs style banjo'' for 54 years. I play a lot of Stanley Bros. tunes / songs - i play everything in 'Scruggs style' & it sounds just like 'Ralph Stanley's style'.
Back before Flatt & Scruggs became really popular & at the time the Stanley Bros. started off,Ralph did indeed play a different style. He played in what was called ''drop thumb' style,but soon changed over to Scruggs style.

I think that Ralph Stanley tried to get folk to believe that he came up with an ''independent'' style of playing - maybe he did,but it's just like Scruggs style.

What's NOT Scruggs style about this ?. One of my favourite Stanley Bros. recordings & IMHO nobody does it better !,
Ivan

https://youtu.be/msOPKTbpAUk

[leftus maximus]

"Strike the dobro"

Nooooooooooo... :crying:

[ralph johansson]

So what were the rules of bluegrass according to Big Mon? I'm thinking strict instrumentation (mandolin, fiddle, guitar, banjo, bass, and sometimes Dobro), tight three- or four-part harmonies, traditional material, cowboy hats, and never a note outside the diatonic scale except a raised fourth now and then. Does that about cover it?

Monroe rarely did trios. He often superimposed the blues, Dorian and Mixolydian scales over major chords. Can't recall that he used raised fourths much, if at all.

Monroe's original intention was not "inventing a genre". Chiefly his idea was that of a string band with a beat. In fact, he left Columbia when the Stanley Brothers joined the label. His only rule seems to have been: "Stay out of my way, stick to your own thing".

[ralph johansson]

You might be thinking of Flatt & Scruggs. Earl always played guitar on the gospel tunes. There might be exceptions but I'm not aware of them.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_cBOO3esAI


As I recall Monroe never used the banjo on a quartet number before 1961

[Mandoplumb]

Ivan I would classify Ralph's style as very similar to Earl's, much closer than say Reno's, but still slightly different. Ralph kept his thumb on the 5th string much more than most " Scruggs" style pickers, led with is first finger, perhaps because he played claw hammer first. I haven't heard you play but it would surprise me if you sounded like Ralph. My dad was one of the best banjo players I have known ( pro or amateur ) and we played a lot of Stanley numbers, he sounded good but he didn't sound like Ralph.

[CES]

Bill Monroe collaborated with John Hartford on occasion. I wonder what he had to say about John's hat?

http://charmainelanham.com/files/2013/05/1_bill-lesson.jpg

Probably not as much as he'd have to say about the guy in the pink ball cap :cool:

Of course, then there's the photo of him with the pink tele, so maybe not :))

[T.D.Nydn]

Well..he did create the music ,so he has the right to create the rules also...I also think harmonica was not on the top of his list either..

[FLATROCK HILL]

So what were the rules of bluegrass according to Big Mon? I'm thinking strict instrumentation (mandolin, fiddle, guitar, banjo, bass, and sometimes Dobro), tight three- or four-part harmonies, traditional material, cowboy hats, and never a note outside the diatonic scale except a raised fourth now and then. Does that about cover it?


Really amazed there are so many people here who believe that bluegrass is *only* what Bill says it is. Guess that means you don't like Sam Bush, David Grisman, Tony Rice, Bela Fleck, Alison Krauss, or Jerry Douglas. But what the heck would hacks like that know about bluegrass? Your loss.

With all due respect, it is your thread and you asked about 'The rules according to Bill Monroe'.

Whether he meant to invent it or not, Mr. Bill was a (the) major factor in the birth of Bluegrass music. While they may have evolved somewhat during the process Bill did have some rules. If you get a response or two from folks who love that music and still try to follow those rules (ambiguous though they may be), you really shouldn't be surprised or "amazed".

In your amazement then, you jumped to a wrong conclusion. Just because someone claims to know what 'Bluegrass' is doesn't necessarily mean they (we) don't like the other players you mentioned.

[Charlie Bernstein]

OK, strike the dobro.

Or give it to me. I'll never play with Bill, anyway.

[Willie Poole]

Monroe played a lot of music before Scruggs and Flatt joined him, as far as I am concerned that is the beginning of "Bluegrass" music Earl made the big difference in what Monroe was playing and that's when it took off...

Willie

[RustyMadd]

From humblemex - "....and sometimes Dobro" - never !!.

Bill Monroe's preferred line up was Banjo / Mandolin / Guitar / Fiddle - 2 if he could get them, & bass. That was the 'classic' line up of the first 'true' Bluegrass band. Only on what BM termed the '' Bluegrass Gospel Quartet '' songs were some of the instruments omitted. I think he got it right,
Ivan;)

Just one thing I would add, Bill Monroe is on record saying that he didn't care for banjo until much later as banjos got better tone and intonation. In fact he joked that banjo was the "5th" child of bluegrass. So mentioning that he was enamored with banjo at all isn't really true. Moreover, clawhammer wasn't frowned upon by Bill either, it was just that the three finger style was something fresh and almost exclusive at one point, so he used it.

[RustyMadd]

Silly mortals, don't you realize that there are a lot of guys you can call the big hoss, but as long as mandolins are being made and bluegrass music's being played, Bill Monroe is gonna be the boss!

That's all there is to it.
Peace

[RustyMadd]

Monroe played a lot of music before Scruggs and Flatt joined him, as far as I am concerned that is the beginning of "Bluegrass" music Earl made the big difference in what Monroe was playing and that's when it took off...

Willie

No sir, while the Scruggs style banjo probably attracted close to a majority to Bill's music, the wholesome family and spiritual qualities of his music caught and held the hearts of Americans and indeed people everywhere.

To argue that any one aspect or instrument is the essence of bluegrass is to do it a disservice. Bryan Sutton certainly wasn't attracted to bluegrass because of Earl's banjo, nor was Jerry Douglas, nor was Mark O'Connor. But they were all certainly attracted to bluegrass.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From RustyMadd - "...the wholesome family and spiritual qualities of his music caught and held the hearts of Americans and indeed people everywhere." Very true - however when Earl Scruggs joined the ''Blue Grass Boys'',the sales of BM's music took off like a rocket. For at least one Bluegrass musician - Jimmy Martin - it was Earl's banjo that caught his ear & i suspect that Earl's playing attracted many others to try their hand at playing banjo in that style - including me,back in 1963,although Earl wasn't the first banjo player i heard.

Nobody had heard banjo played like that before,& the contrast between Stringbean's style & Earl's style was like chalk & cheese !. After Earl Scruggs joined Bill Monroe,the band received many more bookings than at any point in the past & ''Bluegrass Music as we know it'' was born. All the bands that began to play ''Bluegrass music'' after that,played in the style of Bill Monroe & had a ''Scruggs style'' banjo player. Not one band reverted to the 'pre-Scuggs' line up - the banjo played in ''Scruggs' style'' was that important.

Bill Monroe was simply a popular musician fronting a band prior to Earl Scruggs joining him. After Earl joined - the rest as they say ''is history'',
Ivan

[ralph johansson]

From Humblemex - ".....There might be exceptions but I'm not aware of them.". The original recording of ''I Saw The Light'' had Earl Scruggs ( i think ?) playing banjo on it,
Ivan

https://youtu.be/kyIEkZr4Dcw


What's NOT Scruggs style about this ?. One of my favourite Stanley Bros. recordings & IMHO nobody does it better !,
Ivan




I wonder in what sense this is "the original recording". I've leafed through the discography without finding any recording, not even a live recording, like this one, of ISTL before the 1958 studio version without fiddle or banjo. The banjo doesn't really sound like Scruggs and the lead singer definitely is not Lester Flatt.

[Timbofood]

So what were the rules of bluegrass according to Big Mon? I'm thinking strict instrumentation (mandolin, fiddle, guitar, banjo, bass, and sometimes Dobro), tight three- or four-part harmonies, traditional material, cowboy hats, and never a note outside the diatonic scale except a raised fourth now and then. Does that about cover it?
Sorry to say, this "question" smacks of musical snobbery, and a certain amount of arrogance. You are not asking about the roots, but starting off with you perceptions and waving a red flag at "The Bluegrass Police"!
Flatrock hill, Ivan and Willie bring some strong points which have been discussed on this forum ad nauseum. My constant comment about the direction of the music is the same and the powerplayers of the genre understand it too "You have go to understand where you came from to know where you are going"
Humblemex, listen to more Stanley's, early Monroe, Don Reno, and learn for yourself what the roots of bluegrass are. Then, watch the JD Crowe "you tube" biography. You can see some very valuable information there. What it was and what directions (more than one to be sure) bluegrass music is moving are more diverse than ever. Not everyone is brittle but, some can be pretty stiff.

[ralph johansson]

From humblemex - "....and sometimes Dobro" - never !!. Bill Monroe disliked Dobro & felt that it had no part in 'his music'. Personally,much of the time,i'm on Bill Monroe's side,but i certainly liked Rob Ickes contribution the the ''Blue Highway'' band. I don't dislike the Dobro,but for me,it's very 'player dependent'. I O.D'd on Gerry Douglas a long while back ( no disrespect intended ),it just seemed as though he was on every Bluegrass CD i bought.

Bill Monroe's preferred line up was Banjo / Mandolin / Guitar / Fiddle - 2 if he could get them, & bass. That was the 'classic' line up of the first 'true' Bluegrass band. Only on what BM termed the '' Bluegrass Gospel Quartet '' songs were some of the instruments omitted. I think he got it right,
Ivan;)

Well, it certainly had no place in his music - the emphasis on the fiddle as the main instrument and the banjo as a signature instrument left litle room for that instrument. But I'm pretty sure he admired Cliff Carlisle (from whom he also bought a song) and, possibly, Oswald. On the BM &Friends album Barbara Mandrell overdubbed a dobro solo on Rose of Old Kentucky. And Mike Auldridge played on the Bluegrass Hall of Fame album.

[ralph johansson]

Well, let me start out by saying that I'm no Bluegrass expert. Not even so much of a fan. Much of what I know about it I learned here. But based on what I know, I don't think Bill Monroe realized he was inventing a whole new genre early on. I think he thought he was playing old time string band music his way, up tempo with drive, vocals the way he liked them, and using virtuoso musicians who could solo and keep up with him. That's my theory anyways. Other people started imitating the style and the world called it "Bluegrass". When he did realize he had something new and revolutionary, he attempted to codify it.




Of course he wasn't, and his concept of a modern string band changed over the years. The label "bluegrass" was established in the mid-50's, by writers or DJ's. Nobody speaks of the early band (recording for Victor), or the accordion band as Bluegrass, because no one really took off from that. It was the F&S edition that spawned a genre (no one invents a genre), when others took off from that band's concept, adding their own twists and interpretations. And, actually, Monroe's music changed even efter that:
with Howard Watts there was lot of walking 4/4 on medium and medium uptempo songs, Joel Price often switched from 2/2 to 4/4 during instrumental solos, and after his tenure there was very little of that.

Carlton Haney quite incisively illustrated the diversity of the genre when he spoke of Monroe's music as "bluesgrass", the Stanley Brothers as "mountain grass" (although they also recorded honky-tonk country material) and Reno&Smiley as "country grass".

[Bertram Henze]

Whatever you want to play, you can't without thick bushy sideburns.

[multidon]

Ok Ralph, so now we're parsing terminology? "Invent" versus "spawn"? Really?

One of the reasons I don't like getting involved in these "what is bluegrass" discussion is because of how very picky the truly passionate fans get about every tiny detail. But I still let myself get sucked in somehow. I should learn just to shut up.

Just one last comment before I go. This discussion doesn't even belong in the "General Mandolin Discussions" section as it is genre specific. This section is supposed to be for discussions that don't fit anywhere else. This would fit nicely in the genre specific Blugrass, Old Time, etc. area. Moderators, why not move it there and all the parsers and nit pickers can just have at it until the cows come home? I'm done.

[Fretbear]

The Bluebird recordings of The Monroe Brothers have to be listened to (alot) to understand what came afterwards.
Charlie Monroe was the first Bluegrass guitar player by default, as everything he played set the style, which was not only to accompany the fire and drive of his brother's revolutionary mandolin playing, but also serve as the entire rhythm section (which he did expertly) as they performed as a duo. The only chop you will hear on those recordings is something Bill would sometimes use to end his lines, and it was more like a hard strum.
Fact is, Earl was the first guy whose banjo playing was up to matching the kind of fire and drive that Bill was putting out and was looking to deliver, whether he was playing with a banjo or not. Earl came up with that on his own (by the age of ten!) so his genius was his own, as was Bill's. When they met and played together, fireworks just had to ensue. I listen to a lot of The Earls of Leicester, and I listened to Steve Earle and The Del McCoury Band's "The Mountain" in it's entirety several times yesterday, and Bill's selfish attitudes, platitudes and musical "allergies" are what is actually "no part of nothin"

[masteraviator]

Personally, while I greatly adore Monroe's music and much appreciate that he named it something memorable, I don't give a hoot about his "rules".

Bill was bullied by his older brothers, who forced him to take off one each of his paired strings so that he wasn't so loud. He sure rebelled against that. He made Blue Moon of Kentucky as a waltz. Elvis made a big hit out of it in 2/4. Monroe went back and recut it. I like the 3/4 then 2/4 version the best of all. My point here is that Monroe was a trend-setter. There can be no doubt. He inspired thousands and many became trendsetters of their own. He didn't like the Dobro; as do some here it seems. Jerry Douglas caused you an OD.... for a reason. He became a very requested musician in the studio. I read someone on a thread here recently who abhors Del McCoury (one of my favorite singers). That's all okay. Everyone is welcome to their opinion. If the performer is commercial in nature, the fans will buy their albums or not and that will push their sound around. But, I'd much rather listen to someone make an album that they like the sound of; that matched the sound they were looking for. That's the biggest rule Monroe seemed to have.

The rules are meant to be broken.

[Bad Monkey]

I'm guessing that this thread is a lot of "tongue in cheek" goofing, but if there's room for a bluegrass outsider's view...
I've been playing Scots/Irish folk music since I was allowed to sit on the kitchen floor, and got into pop and rock with all the rest of the kids in grade school. I've returned to my roots pretty much since I came out to the PNW. Bluegrass is fun to play, and there's a couple herds worth of solid meat in there to keep anyone learning for as long as they're walking. I have to wonder how many people don't participate in BG jams, gatherings, etc. because of the attitudes that can be like running headfirst into a brick wall. "Bill never...", "that ain't no..", "X got no place in BG...", "You have to...". And so on down the line. It's fun to play bluegrass, and there are some great players playing bluegrass; but y'all ain't no fun to play with.

please bear in mind that that's a blanket statement.

[ralph johansson]

Ok Ralph, so now we're parsing terminology? "Invent" versus "spawn"? Really?

One of the reasons I don't like getting involved in these "what is bluegrass" discussion is because of how very picky the truly passionate fans get about every tiny detail. But I still let myself get sucked in somehow. I should learn just to shut up.

Just one last comment before I go. This discussion doesn't even belong in the "General Mandolin Discussions" section as it is genre specific. This section is supposed to be for discussions that don't fit anywhere else. This would fit nicely in the genre specific Blugrass, Old Time, etc. area. Moderators, why not move it there and all the parsers and nit pickers can just have at it until the cows come home? I'm done.



Well, I thought the distinction was clear. The word "invent" connotes the idea of "rules" defining the genre, as suggested by the TS. I'm using the word "spawn" in the sense of "generate", "give birth to". Giving birth to, inspiring, something, an ideology, a tradition in art, etc. is not the same as controlling it.

As for Monroe we can just trace his development leading to the formula that he came to be identified with, his motives, his likes and dislikes, and discoveries.

The fiddle always was the main instrument in his music (except in gospel numbers) and he was looking for fiddlers who could elaborate on, and play background to, a song but also play oldtime fiddle numbers, like Arthur Smith and Clayton McMichen. Howdy Forrester, who never recorded as a Bluegrass boy, may have been his ideal. Chubby Wise oddly never recorded a fiddle tune with Monroe, but may, up to then, have been his best fiddler for song numbers. Wise had a background in pop and swing music. But "if he'd go swinging
on ne of my numbers I'd stop him from that" (Monroe, at Bean Blossom, 1969).

As for other instruments, their roles changed. Monroe's earliest guitarists were instructed to play a lot of bass runs, like his brother Charlie. With, e.g., Lester Flatt, there wasn't much of that besides the ubiquitous G and D runs. Only in the 60's was there any more elaborate guitar backup on a Monroe recording, in the guise of Benny Williams (Danny Boy, some of the Keith instrumentals). Then, of course, there's the instrumentation. Curly Bradshaw played some harmonica in one of Monroe's earliest bands (Monroe was a great fan of DeFord Bailey, and, along with Roy Acuff supported his induction into the Country Music Hall of Fame). Billie Forrester's accordion has already been mentioned. Stringbean played a quirky two-finger style banjo (but never played clawhammer on record), lacking the smooth syncopated flow that Scruggs introduced. With Scruggs' arrival a lot fell in place, the band was a success and that's what Monroe, and others, took off from subsequently, and what came to be known as Bluegrass, maybe a decade later.

I'm not passionate about Bluegrass music - I suffered an overdose 48 years ago. I'm even less passionate about definition quarrels.
Years ago I wrote a piece for a small magazine, which I later translated to English. Maybe I should enter it as a blog post on this forum.

In conclusion, I hope I'm not violating any forum guidelines in expressing my disgust over cheap insulting labels like "nit picking". I'm at least trying to make a serious contribution.

[Fretbear]

Chubby Wise oddly never recorded a fiddle tune with Monroe, but may, up to then, have been his best fiddler for song numbers. Wise had a background in pop and swing music. But "if he'd go swinging
on ne of my numbers I'd stop him from that" (Monroe, at Bean Blossom, 1969).

Nonsense (even if he did say it)
The "Original" 1946 recordings featuring Wise were amongst the most "swinging" bluegrass numbers ever recorded ("Heavy Traffic Ahead", etc.)

[FLATROCK HILL]

Wise had a background in pop and swing music. But "if he'd go swinging
on ne of my numbers I'd stop him from that" (Monroe, at Bean Blossom, 1969).


Nonsense (even if he did say it)
The "Original" 1946 recordings featuring Wise were amongst the most "swinging" bluegrass numbers ever recorded ("Heavy Traffic Ahead", etc.)

And now we move into the next 3 pages discussing the invention, spawning and meaning of "Swing":
'The rules according to Benny Goodman'.

[sblock]

Bill Monroe may have been dubbed the "father of bluegrass," (by others) but the genre he inspired and helped to create transcended his, and his band's, music alone. Many others have played in this genre. Some were contemporaries of Bill. Some were rivals. Some were imitators. And some were followers. But music does not progress purely by having a series of cover bands playing the identical tunes! A large number of what were eventually called "bluegrass" bands played some of Bill's tunes, but they also introduced their own music, and added their own original twists. They HAD to do that, to survive economically, and they WANTED to do that, as original musicians with their own ideas. And musical genres, which tend to develop a life of their own, are never defined by a single musician -- not even WSM. They tend to get defined by the fans, the listeners, the critics, and by other musicians. Bill Monroe was not the first to even call it "bluegrass music"; he only acquiesced to using that name long after it had been established by others. And he most definitely did not get to "make the rules", because there were -- and are -- no rules! His music was terrific, it was exciting, and it was highly influential, but it was not definitive.

Bluegrass music -- like any other genre -- is not something stagnant and written in stone. It does not follow ANY fixed "rules" so much as it displays a series of musical tendencies, influences, and themes. Furthermore, it continuously evolves. It evolved a whole lot during Bill's long career, in fact, and he contributed a great deal to that evolution himself! But so did a bunch of other musicians. As others have noted, we don't tend to think of accordion or two-finger banjo picking as being bluegrass, but Bill certainly had these in his early bands. He also experimented with twin fiddles for a while, but not all bluegrass bands went with these.There was the fairly early influence of the Stanley Brothers, Don Reno, Flatt & Scruggs, Bill Clifton, Jim & Jesse, and many more. There were later influences by the Country Gentlemen, Seldom Scene, Jimmy Martin, JD Crowe, and others. Groups like Newgrass Revival and Muleskinner made their own unique contributions. And so did Nickel Creek. Is it all bluegrass? Maybe not, because each group in turn has challenged, and innovated upon, the then-current norm, and helped to create a musical continuum involving constant change, movement, and experimentation. But trying to pigeonhole bluegrass, or to define a set of "Monroe's Rules" is a fruitless and unrewarding undertaking. Any rules, such as they were, didn't even stay the same during Monroe's tenure with his own band! And had he lived longer, the norms of bluegrass would likely have evolved still further, because he continued to innovate well into his last years. And to top it all off, Monroe by all accounts was very proud and self-conscious, and he seemed to hate it whenever bands copied his style too closely (he didn't like the competition) or took it in a slightly different direction (he didn't appreciate the departure), so you could not win, seemingly, either way!

Those who seek to act as a bluegrass police are barking up the wrong tree. I suspect they mean well, and they are coming from a place of deep love for the music, but these efforts to promote strict rules are driven by a kind of naive nostalgia, and they will never work. And those who seek to define bluegrass instrumentation (Dobros allowed/disallowed; electric vs. acoustic basses, harmonicas banned, and more) are only wasting their time. Music is as music does. We should celebrate the old and welcome the new, but not seek to put on blinders -- or straight jackets. Because remaining stuck in a rut ain't no part of nuthin'.

[billkilpatrick]

And now we move into the next 3 pages discussing the invention, spawning and meaning of "Swing": 'The rules according to Benny Goodman'.

(doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah) ...

[RustyMadd]

And here all this time I thought the IBMA set the rules for bluegrass. Little did I suspect that the rules are actually set by forum posters! ;-)

[Explorer]

And here all this time I thought the IBMA set the rules for bluegrass. Little did I suspect that the rules are actually set by forum posters! ;-)

I don't recall them ever defining "bluegrass" specifically in the way some here are suggesting. It seems to be more of a, "I know it when I hear it."

[multidon]

Ok, Ralph, I thought I was done, I really did, since I'm not a bluegrass fan per se but I thought, like you, that I had a positive contribution to make. But I have huge problem with some of the stuff you posted, and the manner in which you did it. Correcting a fellow poster's spelling and grammar is considered rude here. And vocabulary choice is part of that. And I stand by my statement. You say nobody "invents" a genre. I dispute that emphatically. In every new development in the arts there is a visionary, a revolutionary, someone who does something new first. That person is acting as an inventor. The actual definition of "inventor" is "someone who devises something new". Seems to me, that is an appropriate term to use for Bill Monroe. I also take issue with the verb "spawn". When used in the context that you did, my dictionary says it has derogatory connotations.

I know, I know, you said you are "less passionate about definition quarrels". But you were quick enough to beat me over the head with what you considered incorrect usage, weren't you? And the term "nit picker" was not aimed specifically at you but at all those folks who natter on ad nauseum about what bluegrass is or isn't every time it comes up. As they say, if the shoe fits.

I'm not sure, I post here a lot, but this may be the first time I've had an exchange with you. And it is clear to me just from what small exchange we had here that my ignore list needs to grow by one more. Perhaps you have made that same decision as well.

When oh when will I ever learn to just run away whenever somebody starts a "what is bluegrass" discussion? I'm such a sucker. Don, out. And I mean it this time.

[Mark Wilson]

I wonder what his rules were later on about leaving your instruments out or not. Cased away or sitting out by the fireplace?

[FLATROCK HILL]

(doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah) ...

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got it. (coincidentally, a rough translation of 'no part of nuthin')

[Bill Findley]

Mr. Bill spawned the invention, and its spoor was bluegrass.

[bigskygirl]

I dislike these kinds of threads and generally ignore them, it's limiting to umm...limit...oneself to how things are "supposed" to be done in music. While I spend a good amount of time and effort learning Bluegrass and listening to Bill Monroe I really don't care what he would have thought.

I'm glad Sam Bush and David Grisman and hosts of others didn't either because I am able to get exposed to a range of different styles and interpretations which in turn I make my own. I wanted to learn Southern Flavor (my current fav) and I listened ad nauseum to any version/video I could find to get it down...I play it the way I play it and to heck with how anyone thinks it should be done.

[sblock]

And here all this time I thought the IBMA set the rules for bluegrass. Little did I suspect that the rules are actually set by forum posters! ;-)

No, the rules for bluegrass are not set by forum posters. But then again, the IBMA doesn't get to set the rules either -- except some rules it chooses to follow as a private organization, that is. And by the way, pioneering Dobro player Josh Graves is in the IBMA Hall of Fame! The IBMA doesn't get to define bluegrass. There are no rules in bluegrass! And there is no crying in baseball. :)

[red7flag]

Ivan, Banjo player here too. Ralph plays almost entirely forward rolls and fits the melody in with incredible timing. Earl uses timing devices like the forward backward roll to grab the melody. As a result, they really sound different and are approaching the tune differently. Neither better or worse just a different style. To me, Earl sounds smoother and Ralph more driving. Again that is a function of their different approaches. I can listen to either and really approach where they were coming from. Another example is Don Reno. He started as a jazz guitar player and adapted concepts like closed position runs and played in almost any key mostly without a capo. Today, most banjo players start with Earl, but in the beginning, Ralph and Don developed their own styles. This is much of what adds more color to bluegrass than just blue.

[Jeff Hildreth]

"Nobody had heard banjo played like that before"

With the exception of those who had heard Johnny Whisnant.

[Jeff Hildreth]

"Personally, while I greatly adore Monroe's music and much appreciate that he named it something memorable, I don't give a hoot about his "rules"."

There is a lot more to Bluegrass than Monroe. He was a contributor no doubt, but the definition of "bluegrass" is open to interpretation and IMNSHO Flatt and Scruggs did more for Bluegrass than the collective prior.

I have no recordings of Monroe.. none. Mandolin is a lot more than a small window of time and style. Bluegrass is a lot more than Monroe.

[Mandoplumb]

If there are NO rules to bluegrass how do we define the genre? Can I call the Beatles bluegrass? How about Johnny Cash or Mozart? Maybe we do allow ourselves to think that what we don't like ( any electric instrument in my case) to be against the rules and therefore no part of nuthin,but somewhere there has to be rules, it's just foolish to say there isn't. If there isn't then it would all just be music and maybe that wouldn't be so bad but that ain't the way it is. When I was a kid we called it hillbilly music or the more high brow "country" and that included Patsy Cline, Hawkshaw Halkins, Bill Monroe, Flatt and Scruggs, etc. As "country" became more pop and commercial there seem to be a need to distinguish it from was being called bluegrass, a simpler, cleaner( by that I mean less cluttered not more "moral") genre of music. To do that there has to be some understanding (rules) of what the characteristics of bluegrass is. I don't know who gets to set the rules but there has to be some.

[bigskygirl]

Here's a chart...

157586

[sblock]

If there are NO rules to bluegrass how do we define the genre? Can I call the Beatles bluegrass? How about Johnny Cash or Mozart? Maybe we do allow ourselves to think that what we don't like ( any electric instrument in my case) to be against the rules and therefore no part of nuthin,but somewhere there has to be rules, it's just foolish to say there isn't. If there isn't then it would all just be music and maybe that wouldn't be so bad but that ain't the way it is. When I was a kid we called it hillbilly music or the more high brow "country" and that included Patsy Cline, Hawkshaw Halkins, Bill Monroe, Flatt and Scruggs, etc. As "country" became more pop and commercial there seem to be a need to distinguish it from was being called bluegrass, a simpler, cleaner( by that I mean less cluttered not more "moral") genre of music. To do that there has to be some understanding (rules) of what the characteristics of bluegrass is. I don't know who gets to set the rules but there has to be some.

Well, a genre of music can manifest certain musical characteristics. It can have some musical tendencies. It can have a certain "style." And more often than not, it has some great musicians (and composers) whose particular playing (or writing) helped to originate/develop the sound, and to propel it into the popular imagination. It may even have developed some of its own musical cliches. It will have musicologists or aficionados or players or fans who agreed upon a name for the genre. But hard-and-fast "rules"?! I think not! Perhaps you're just using the word "rules" a bit differently from the rest of us?

I am pretty sure that no one can write down a coherent set of rules that would define classical music. I am equally sure that no one could write down any particular rules for jazz, either. Or folk/roots (whatever that is). In fact, as soon as some "rule" is perceived to be emerging in a given genre, it becomes an instant challenge for the up-and-coming generation of musicians in that genre to break it! That's just the way it is. And that's how music evolves and grows.

Yes, it is possible to describe the music of a given (short) period reasonably well, like the bluegrass/country/mountain music of 1945-1950. That's like taking a snapshot in time. But fast forward a few years, and too many things will have changed.

Bill Monroe did not follow a set of "rules" during his long career, and early Monroe sounds different from late Monroe. And neither one of these can usefully define "bluegrass," anyway, because there were so many other groups and great players contributing all at the same time, and many more since.

Trying to straight-jacket bluegrass is a fool's errand. It cannot work. The truth is that no one gets to set the rules. The good news is that the music thrives anyway, without them! "Bluegrass music" is the sum of all its talented players and happy fans. It doesn't need rules to function, and it doesn't need a bluegrass police to enforce them, either.

[Timbofood]

"This ain't no part of nuthin'!"
Going to go listen to that non bluegrass player Bobby Osborne!

[Ivan Kelsall]

Re. 'forward / backward' rolls - most banjo players play whatever produces the sequence of notes & the sound that they're after.

As a self taught banjo player,i never learned a forward or backward roll in my life. It wasn't until i'd been playing for years that banjo tutor books began to come into the UK & i heard of 'rolls' of any sort. Earl Scruggs' banjo intros. to songs such as ''Take Me In a Lifeboat'' are almost all 'forward rolls',but he's not playing 'Stanley Style' - he's playing 'what fits' & what makes it 'sound right' to his ears.

To a degree,this is splitting hairs VERY thinly. I play 'Scruggs style' banjo,but can reproduce any of Ralph Stanley's tunes 'as he plays them' - so where does that leave me ??,:confused:

Re. the 'origin' of the term ''Bluegrass music'' - according to Neil Rosenberg's book ''Bluegrass a History'' - the term came into being on the back of the popularity of Bill Monroe's new line up with Earl Scruggs on board. Folk wanted to hear more of it on the radio & so began writing into the radio stations asking for ''more of that Bluegrass style of music'',using the name of Bill Monroe's band to describe what they wanted. So,the music itself took on the name of Bill Monroe's band,
Ivan:grin:

[billkilpatrick]

On the "Peghead Nation" site, Mike Compton describes Monroe's style of play as being "virile." I've been trying to accept this as meaning something other than "heavy with attitude" but not with much success. Almost every other BG mandolin player I've heard has sounded like he/she was having fun - but not Bill Monroe. The interview that surfaced here recently showed a very guarded, taciturn, and tightly compressed old man, or so it seemed to me. IMHO - very humble, mind - I think any rules Monroe might have imposed on "his" music had more to do with his attitude and his persona than making music.

[Bertram Henze]

...any rules Monroe might have imposed on "his" music had more to do with his attitude and his persona than making music.

This kind of process is very common in any case, and it has worked as a role model for many followers: Choosing a global word as a home for personal preferences and fighting any other notions that might try to slip under the same cover.

http://precisensan.com/antikforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99500&stc=1&d=1314295771

[ralph johansson]

I wonder in what sense this is "the original recording". I've leafed through the discography without finding any recording, not even a live recording, like this one, of ISTL before the 1958 studio version without fiddle or banjo. The banjo doesn't really sound like Scruggs and the lead singer definitely is not Lester Flatt.

I've checked further in the discography. As I hear no bass in the vocal ensemble my guess is that this is the version recorded live in 1963 with Jack Cooke on guitar and lead vocals, Del McCoury on banjo and baritone vocals, Kenny Baker on fiddle, and Bessie Lee Mauldin on bass. If, so it's typical. In the beginning Monroe was mainly concerned with creating a complete show; a hot string band with solo and group vocals, comedy, and a gospel quartet. In the 60's when he was becoming increasingly identified with the bluegrass label it seems he wanted the bluegrass sound to permeate everything he did.

And yet there were a few exceptions. On the 1954 re-recording of Blue Moon of Kentucky there is no audibe banjo. And I'm pretty sure Monroe thought of My Last Days on Earth as a complete departure from Bluegrass - on stage it was performed without banjo and fiddle, and the recorded version has an overdubbed vocal group and string ensemble, as well as some sound effects.

[mando-tech]

So what were the rules of bluegrass according to Big Mon? I'm thinking strict instrumentation (mandolin, fiddle, guitar, banjo, bass, and sometimes Dobro), tight three- or four-part harmonies, traditional material, cowboy hats, and never a note outside the diatonic scale except a raised fourth now and then. Does that about cover it?

,,,what do you mean -"sometimes dobro" ?,...Bill knew that a 'dobro' didn't belong in bluegrass !

[JeffD]

Really amazed there are so many people here who believe that bluegrass is *only* what Bill says it is. Guess that means you don't like Sam Bush, David Grisman, Tony Rice, Bela Fleck, Alison Krauss, or Jerry Douglas. But what the heck would hacks like that know about bluegrass? Your loss.

Umm... you asked for the rules according to Big Mon. You did not ask for the rules according to Sam, or Dave, or Tony, or.... :)

[Mando Mort]

Bill's group did it well, but it does sound somewhat limiting...

[Ranger Bob]

Bill Monroe may have been dubbed the "father of bluegrass," (by others) but the genre he inspired and helped to create transcended his, and his band's, music alone. Many others have played in this genre. Some were contemporaries of Bill. Some were rivals. Some were imitators. And some were followers. But music does not progress purely by having a series of cover bands playing the identical tunes! A large number of what were eventually called "bluegrass" bands played some of Bill's tunes, but they also introduced their own music, and added their own original twists. They HAD to do that, to survive economically, and they WANTED to do that, as original musicians with their own ideas. And musical genres, which tend to develop a life of their own, are never defined by a single musician -- not even WSM. They tend to get defined by the fans, the listeners, the critics, and by other musicians. Bill Monroe was not the first to even call it "bluegrass music"; he only acquiesced to using that name long after it had been established by others. And he most definitely did not get to "make the rules", because there were -- and are -- no rules! His music was terrific, it was exciting, and it was highly influential, but it was not definitive.

Bluegrass music -- like any other genre -- is not something stagnant and written in stone. It does not follow ANY fixed "rules" so much as it displays a series of musical tendencies, influences, and themes. Furthermore, it continuously evolves. It evolved a whole lot during Bill's long career, in fact, and he contributed a great deal to that evolution himself! But so did a bunch of other musicians. As others have noted, we don't tend to think of accordion or two-finger banjo picking as being bluegrass, but Bill certainly had these in his early bands. He also experimented with twin fiddles for a while, but not all bluegrass bands went with these.There was the fairly early influence of the Stanley Brothers, Don Reno, Flatt & Scruggs, Bill Clifton, Jim & Jesse, and many more. There were later influences by the Country Gentlemen, Seldom Scene, Jimmy Martin, JD Crowe, and others. Groups like Newgrass Revival and Muleskinner made their own unique contributions. And so did Nickel Creek. Is it all bluegrass? Maybe not, because each group in turn has challenged, and innovated upon, the then-current norm, and helped to create a musical continuum involving constant change, movement, and experimentation. But trying to pigeonhole bluegrass, or to define a set of "Monroe's Rules" is a fruitless and unrewarding undertaking. Any rules, such as they were, didn't even stay the same during Monroe's tenure with his own band! And had he lived longer, the norms of bluegrass would likely have evolved still further, because he continued to innovate well into his last years. And to top it all off, Monroe by all accounts was very proud and self-conscious, and he seemed to hate it whenever bands copied his style too closely (he didn't like the competition) or took it in a slightly different direction (he didn't appreciate the departure), so you could not win, seemingly, either way!

Those who seek to act as a bluegrass police are barking up the wrong tree. I suspect they mean well, and they are coming from a place of deep love for the music, but these efforts to promote strict rules are driven by a kind of naive nostalgia, and they will never work. And those who seek to define bluegrass instrumentation (Dobros allowed/disallowed; electric vs. acoustic basses, harmonicas banned, and more) are only wasting their time. Music is as music does. We should celebrate the old and welcome the new, but not seek to put on blinders -- or straight jackets. Because remaining stuck in a rut ain't no part of nuthin'.

I was going to write a profound entry but, sblock nailed it.

[Ranger Bob]

What the heck. I'm gonna post something anyway. I think we limit ourselves as people when we narrow ourselves as musicians. I think back to an album titled, "Will the Circle Be Unbroken." Musicians who had been playing in a very small circle for years were showcased to mainstream America. My brain cells are a bit old and forgetful but, I seem to recall something caught hold in the late 60's and America "discovered" "Bluegrass." The likes of Doc Watson, Norman Blake, Vassar Clements, Earl Scruggs, Mother Maybelle, Tut Taylor, Jimmy Martin, and Roy Acuff sent people flying to record (yes, record!) stores to find more "Bluegrass" music. Not to mention a sharp upturn for Martin and Gibson sales. Whether it was truly Bluegrass as defined many ways here is immaterial. People loved it. And, most of them probably hadn't even heard of Bill Monroe until they really starting getting into it. The bottom line is that the aforementioned "non-Bluegrassers" set the stage for what everyone on this site and hosts of others are enjoying today.

[David Lewis]

,,,what do you mean -"sometimes dobro" ?,...Bill knew that a 'dobro' didn't belong in bluegrass !

Uncle Josh Graves had his hand shaken by MOnroe with the greeting 'Welcome to Bluegrass, Son' after a particularly fine jam session.

[David Lewis]

What the heck. I'm gonna post something anyway. I think we limit ourselves as people when we narrow ourselves as musicians. I think back to an album titled, "Will the Circle Be Unbroken." Musicians who had been playing in a very small circle for years were showcased to mainstream America. My brain cells are a bit old and forgetful but, I seem to recall something caught hold in the late 60's and America "discovered" "Bluegrass." The likes of Doc Watson, Norman Blake, Vassar Clements, Earl Scruggs, Mother Maybelle, Tut Taylor, Jimmy Martin, and Roy Acuff sent people flying to record (yes, record!) stores to find more "Bluegrass" music. Not to mention a sharp upturn for Martin and Gibson sales. Whether it was truly Bluegrass as defined many ways here is immaterial. People loved it. And, most of them probably hadn't even heard of Bill Monroe until they really starting getting into it. The bottom line is that the aforementioned "non-Bluegrassers" set the stage for what everyone on this site and hosts of others are enjoying today.

Apparently Roy Acuff (who was around 70 at the time) did not want to record with these longhairs (the Nitty Gritty dirt band). His agent convinced to take his fiddle to the studio, and if he didn't like it, they'd go (and he'd still get paid.) The Nitty Gritty's started up, and about halfway through the song (so the legend goes as I heard it), Acuff stands up and says 'G**D*** it, that's country music', pulls out his fiddle and starts recording.

[Ranger Bob]

That's the story I heard too.

[GTison]

-Many, if not MOST of the quotes about "no part of nuthin" are showing BM's attitude and ego. He WAS a man full of contradictions and imperfections, as am I. But it is funny, and part of a good ribbing, and part of stage shows now. (Remember what is said at a Show is entertainment and not always truth.)

-Of the interviews I've seen, when asked about "Blue Grass" music he would invariably tell them something that applied to HIS BAND. He more than anything considered Bluegrass to be Blue Grass, i.e. his music, and not the general definition of bluegrass.

-So when he said Dobro doesn't belong in bluegrass, I believe he meant in his band and his music. Which was Bill Monroe and the Blue Grass Boys. Also it was likely a shot at Flatt & Scruggs.

-Late in life he welcomed the adulation of his style as bluegrass.

-He also seemed to view other so-called bluegrass bands as "other peoples music" meaning every different bluegrass artist had their own "music."

-While he didn't like some styles such as NGR, money often seemed to soften his views on things.

-To minimize what he did for the mandolin and for bluegrass is absurd.

[farmerjones]

Bill Monroe invented Bluegrass, just as sure as Edison invented the light bulb. That being said, Edison had a stable of inventors, the same way Mun had a stable of musicians. There was a certain combination of musicians at a particular time. This also needs to be acknowledged. Prior to this there was similar music. Then after, there became a sort of well-spring. Even the Bluegrass Boys evolved thereafter.

It's funny, today we're arguing who's under the BG umbrella. But back in the day, bands were competing. The struggle was to set themselves apart from "that other band." I.e., Dr. Ralph proclaimed they played Mountain Music. Flatt & Scruggs claimed to play Country Music on television. Even Jimmy Martin proclaimed himself "King of Bluegrass" at the same time Mun was proclaiming to be "The Father of Bluegrass" to set their respective bands apart. Folks won't miss the fact Martin worked for Mun for awhile. There's the segue to the top of this reply.

[Willie Poole]

One thing for sure is that Monroe didn`t like others to play the music the same as he did, go and get you own style he said but in my mind because so many others did copy his music is why bluegrass progressed like it did...Like a lot of banjo players they listened to Scruggs and then tried to improve on it or should I say they improvised it? Around 1054-55 Earl Scruggs had an accident and had to stop playing for a short period of time so that is when Lester got Josh Graves to come in a fill in of the dobro, at least that is the way I recall it, the first song that I heard them do with the dobro was Big Black Train, I think that is the correct title...

I cannot stand a twangy dobro but do like one that is played tastefully, like Mike Auldridge played it...

I know bluegrass when I hear it and I haven`t heard it for a long time...Quote me on that if you like...:))

Willie

[Mark Wilson]

I know bluegrass when I hear it and I haven't heard it for a long time...Quote me on that if you like...WillieDone! :mandosmiley:

[V70416]

When Bill uttered the infamous "that ain't no part of nothin'" to Peter(Pedro/Panama Red) Rowan,Rowan said that was
his very first lesson in the Zen philosophy. I heard him say it;or something similar(just before he went into his introduction to
"Free Mexican Air Force" complete with the vegetarian hippies in their L.L. Bean tent,yoga pants etc.)
Spiritual Sport at Camp Howdy;sermon delivered by Beauregard Hooligan.

Anyway,it's pretty easy to see that Pedro and Big Mon(Rowan referred to him sometimes as "Bill Mambo") were not destined to work together very long. Sorta like a lot of other musicians in Bill's band.

Rules? We don't need no stinkin' rules.

[NursingDaBlues]

A number of years ago I interviewed a gentleman who had applied for a job in my business. One of his claims was that he had ten-years’ experience in the field. During the interview it became pretty clear that his ten-years’ experience was in reality one day of experience repeated 3650 times. He hadn’t grown. Yes, he had the fundamentals; he had a record of doing capable work; he was skilled in following directions and not making waves; he was “safe.” But he wasn’t able to be creative; to do things that involved crowding the edge; to truly think outside the box; to produce new goals, new visions, new directions for the company.

I think of that interview when I encounter folks who snub innovation and growth in music. In past years I was both saddened and angered with people walking out of performances by New Grass Revival and Nickle Creek because “that wasn’t bluegrass." Personally, I really appreciated artists like Sam Bush, Bela Fleck, Chris Thile, and Sarah Watkins when they broke new ground. And I appreciate today’s artists like Sara Jarosz, Sierra Hull, Ethan Jodziewicz, and all of the hundreds of individuals and groups who continually push the edge to make “traditional” music their own while bringing new audiences into the fold.

We can’t possess music. When we play a note, we release it. And someone with a different ear, a different background, a different instrument, and a different perspective, will hear that note and say: “Wow, I like that. But maybe people will like it better if I do it this way.” And that’s as it should be.

[DavidKOS]

A number of years ago I interviewed a gentleman who had applied for a job in my business. One of his claims was that he had ten-years’ experience in the field. During the interview it became pretty clear that his ten-years’ experience was in reality one day of experience repeated 3650 times. He hadn’t grown.

My dad was a jeweler. He warned me that a guy that was in business for 40 years may only have one year's experience repeated 40 times over.

[NursingDaBlues]

My dad was a jeweler. He warned me that a guy that was in business for 40 years may only have one year's experience repeated 40 times over.

My usage is a Louisiana thing; at least that's where I learned the meanings of experience and what others call "experience."

[DavidKOS]

My usage is a Louisiana thing; at least that's where I learned the meanings of experience and what others call "experience."

And we are from New Orleans! No wonder!

[farmerjones]

I'm down with the "no rules" folks. But rules are the reason I can meet total strangers in a parking lot and make some quality music, like immediately. This is separate, and not to be confused with freedom of expression. Anybody that plays an instrument, if he's a Kenny Werner follower or not, still has parameters. IOW, a musician should study music and his instrument then learn to push the envelope from there. The opposite is Prof. Harold Hill's "Think Method."

I guess we're along ways from Mun's rules. But just remember what he said when he bit into a bagel, "Stay away from them there donuts Son. They's tuff as leather, and they ain't a bit sweet."

[RFMando]

Five pages in and I'd say this thread "ain't no part of nothin'"

;-)

[V70416]

farmerjones,I had to look up Kenny Werner;glad I did. There must be some middle ground, for most people who play music, between Kenny and Prof.Hill.

I heard Bill Monroe's Zen lesson repeated a few times when,at the Telluride Bluegrass Festival, Little Feat was introduced as the "special guest" at the end of the weekend by the mayor of Telluride(not Sam Bush). Lots of traditional-Bluegrass-only festivarians packed up the wife and kids muttering as they departed the area.
That made it so much easier for me to move up into the front row!

There is a fatman in the bathtub with the blues.

There's still only two kinds of music.

[jimmy powells]

I LOVE the dobro in a bluegrass band but I had a good friend who hated it so you could go on forever with this. To me, bluegrass sort of means acoustic style music with a Banjo. Although Bill Monroe started it, I firmly believe that Earl Scruggs banjo was the last piece of he jigsaw and without it, I just don't think the whole bluegrass thing would have moved along the way it has done. Although there are a good few 'bluegrass bands' without a banjo, to many people it is an essential part and the dobro ADDS.

Can't see the point in saying you CAN'T have this or that. When Larry Sparks recorded 'Sharecropper's son,' he had the harmonica solo as it was done on original. Nice change and it works so can't see the problem. Be open minded is my view.

Love the dobro Gerry Douglas plays on Peter Rowan's "Wayside Tavern" not to mention dobro on Sam Bush song @Last letter home'



I get a daily video from 'Bluegarss on the tube' and most of it sounds nothing like bluegrass.

[dan in va]

Some of the great Dobro players may have been able to play the essence of Mr. Monroe's music. Mike Auldridge and Jerry Douglas could've done it.

i've always wondered what the other kind of music had in mind that the great picker said would have been very popular, but he never recorded it (AFAIK), suspecting his fans may have thought he was abandoning bluegrass. Maybe it was an ancient tone kind of thing with a Celtic feel. If so, i could imagine uilleann pipes and bodhran in it. Some of the Transatlantic Sessions with Aly Bain may have been appealing...something like their rendition of Scotland with Mark O'Connor, etc.

[bobrem]

I once interviewed Bill for a radio show about 1982 and asked him what he thought about "newgrass" players.
"A lot of 'em put a lot of notes in there that really don't belong," he said. "Try to keep it down t' earth."

[fernmando]

Y'all missed it. I'm here to help. Here goes...."you can't play the Blue Grass music with the striped pants on". You're welcome.

Roscoe Morgan

[f5loar]

Five pages in and I'd say this thread "ain't no part of nothin'"

;-)

I sorta agree, but hey, it's on a bumper sticker so it's got to be true! I'd say if you want to know all there is to know about Bill Monroe music you need to buy all 7 of the Bear Family box sets and listen to ever song on them. When you get to the last one, you will know and understand all there is to know about Bill Monroe and his music they called "Bluegrass". PS: expect to hear some accordian, open back banjo,electric guitar, piano, organ, drums and a choir.

[mando-tech]

That's always sound advice. Strike it, then stomp on it and set it on fire. :)

(Even if Bill's "ain't no part of nuthin" comment wasn't about dobros, it should have been.)

...I agree with above...-the 'dobro' (Hawaiian steel) does NOT belong in bluegrass !

[mandos&turtles]

Rules are made to be broken...

[mando-tech]

So what were the rules of bluegrass according to Big Mon? I'm thinking strict instrumentation (mandolin, fiddle, guitar, banjo, bass, and sometimes Dobro), tight three- or four-part harmonies, traditional material, cowboy hats, and never a note outside the diatonic scale except a raised fourth now and then. Does that about cover it?

,,,correction,...-NEVER "dobro",...not "sometimes" !

[mando-tech]

...but NEVER... -dobro !

[mando-tech]

I sorta agree, but hey, it's on a bumper sticker so it's got to be true! I'd say if you want to know all there is to know about Bill Monroe music you need to buy all 7 of the Bear Family box sets and listen to ever song on them. When you get to the last one, you will know and understand all there is to know about Bill Monroe and his music they called "Bluegrass". PS: expect to hear some accordian, open back banjo,electric guitar, piano, organ, drums and a choir.

...but NEVER -dobro !

[Khatarlan]

I’m having trouble merging the “we have rules and some instruments don’t belong in BG” Bill Monroe with the first time I heard “Kentucky Waltz”... played by Bill and his band.... with a Hammond organ. I could picture it maybe on a gospel tune, but on a slow dance tune?

And I must admit my inner five year old was waiting to hear - Da-dum-da-tump...da TUMM... “CHARGE!”

K’hat

[ralph johansson]

I’m having trouble merging the “we have rules and some instruments don’t belong in BG” Bill Monroe with the first time I heard “Kentucky Waltz”... played by Bill and his band.... with a Hammond organ. I could picture it maybe on a gospel tune, but on a slow dance tune?

And I must admit my inner five year old was waiting to hear - Da-dum-da-tump...da TUMM... “CHARGE!”

K’hat

The answer to this is very simple. The March 17 1951 session was in no way bluegrass and Monroe did not record with his band at all but with session musicians. That session was not Monroe’s idea (Monroe always recorded for major labels and never was his own producer). Apparently Paul Cohen (and Owen Bradley) hoped to capitalize on Eddy Arnold’s success with Kentucky Waltz, and broaden Monroe’s public appeal by including electric instruments.


There were also two gospel numbers with organ and Prisoner’s Song with some hokey honky-tonk piano.


The next two sessions were mainly devoted to material associated with Jimmie Rodgers, eight numbers, the standard format for an album in those days. Three songs were recorded with BG instrumentation, five songs of a more uptown character were done with electric guitars and drum(s).


Most of the songs were canned, e.g., Sailor’s Plea and Peach Picking Time were released only in 1964, and the experiment was never repeated.

[David Lewis]

Uncle josh graves' autobiography has Monroe shaking graves’ Hand after a bluegrass jam and saying 'welcome to bluegrass son
...but NEVER -dobro !

[Elliot Luber]

You gotta wear a hat. Unless you've got a bluegrass hairdoo under it. :)

[Kevin Winn]

My usage is a Louisiana thing; at least that's where I learned the meanings of experience and what others call "experience."

"Education is when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get if you don't."
- Pete Seeger

[bjewell]

Really amazed there are so many people here who believe that bluegrass is *only* what Bill says it is. Guess that means you don't like Sam Bush, David Grisman, Tony Rice, Bela Fleck, Alison Krauss, or Jerry Douglas. But what the heck would hacks like that know about bluegrass? Your loss.
Well I like Tony Rice...

[Bob Buckingham]

Good dobro, the bluegrass oxymoron.

[Steve Ostrander]

Always play the guitar with the open B-string (in the G-chord). Look sharp, but never smile! I believe Roland White played the G-chord like Clarence, didn't he?
And the strap goes over the shoulder, but not over the back.