What kind of instrument is this - and how old?

[UVDaffy]

Hello from germany, Vollmarshausen, :)

i am an historical interested person, member of the "Naturfriends"-club of Vollmarshausen.

We did a spring cleaning in our attic - and we found some interesting old photos - and one music-instrument. It is like a mandoline or banjo. It is very old - and there is a name carved into the wood: V.H. Kittelson. I know that there were american soldiers here back in the end WW2.

I do not know if it is a banjo - or a mandoline. In our club there were only mandoline-players, but they are very confused about this old instrument. It has 8 strings as you can see.

One of the pegs (is this the correct translation?) was removed and replaced by an old US-penny - i can hardly read 1937 (or could be 1932?).

The only name with a person, who "fits" to WW2 was a Vernon Hubert Kittelson, born in 1925, died 2002. Seems that he was married twice, but no children or other living relatives. He came from Minnesota.

Perhaps you specialists are able to join one or two more pieces to this puzzle?

Thanks a lot!

Ulrike ;)

[MikeEdgerton]

It's a banjo mandolin or mandolin banjo or banjolin, made in Europe, probably 30's-40's. They are on eBay weekly.

[UVDaffy]

Are you sure that it was made in europe? What is typicall for a europe banjo mandolin (or mandolin banjo - or banjolin)? In the WWW different pages tell about the small differences between banjolin - and banjo mandolin or mandolin banjo. They always warn not to mix up these kind of instruments.

I saw other instruments looking similar, but only with brand names - and made in the US about the 1920ties. That (and the US-penny-peg) would fit the american soldier Kittelson as former owner.

But thanks a lot for your quick reply (y)

[allenhopkins]

The slotted headstock, and the construction of the body, with tension brackets that adjust from the front and a resonator of that design -- plus the smaller size of the head -- strongly indicate European origin. Can't be 100% sure, but I'd bet on it.

Whoever Mr. Kittelson was, he could have acquired the instrument in Europe, then carved his name into it.

You're right about the confusion between "banjo-mandolin"/"mandolin-banjo," and "banjolin." The latter is used as a shorthand term -- abbreviation, in a sense -- for the former, but a banjolin is a distinct, four-string instrument. It's pretty rare; you mostly see mandolin-banjos, what is what this one is. It was a common instrument during the first 25-35 years of the last century, then lost popularity. As far as I know, there is only one company making mandolin-banjos now -- Gold Tone, a US-Asian firm that has instruments built in Korea (I believe), shipped to the US.

Someone did indeed solder on a US penny to replace the missing tuner button, a clever bit of improvisation. This definitely implies that the owner was American, but probably he found the instrument in Europe, quite possibly during WWII.

[MikeEdgerton]

Are you sure that it was made in europe?

You can borrow Mafia money and bet on it. It wasn't made in the US.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Going back pre.WWII & both during & afterwards,the English film star & comedian,George Formby, popularised the Ukulele banjo. At the start of his career,GF used a 'proper' wooden Ukulele,the small,guitar shaped one. Pre.war,the tenor banjo was a very popular dance band instrument & it was a fairly popular 'parlour' instrument. I don't know who it was,but somebody decided to build a Ukulele/banjo 'hybrid' instrument & also the mandolin/banjo hybrid. This was a means of being able to produce the popular ''banjo sound'' on instruments the people already played = you didn't have to learn to play a new instrument. George Formby,adopted the Uke-banjo as his main instrument,possibly for 2 reasons - it sounded like a banjo (sort of), & it was far louder than the Ukulele 'proper',& much better for use in his films & stage shows.

I've seen a great number of Uke/banjos & Mandolin/banjos & they were all UK made. At one point in time,there were a great number of UK banjo makers who capitalised on the craze for these hybrids,as the popularity of the 5-string banjo & tenor banjo waned. My grandfather played Uke/banjo & that was the instrument that kicked off my own musical journey,
Ivan;)
157442 A poor quality pic.of my first instruments taken back in around 1964/5. My grandfather's Uke in the middle. The banjo on the left (originally fretless & fretted by me in all the wrong positions !) is a C.F.Matthews open back banjo. The one on the right,was an 18 fret,short scale 5-string banjo bearing the name of a well known UK Banjo player - Will Van Allen. Very likely made to his specs. by one of the main UK builders.

[UVDaffy]

Really a big THANK YOU for all of your answers - i know that this instrument is not very worthfull - mass-production from europe it seems. To show you the pictures i have found, here are the links (i hope they work):
https://www.2ememain.be/musique-instruments/instruments-de-musique/banjos/banjoline-324723672.html?utm_campaign=socialbuttons&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook :grin:
And this is the one i found with a brand-name on it (Marius): https://www.pinterest.de/pin/288441551113661816/ - i wonder in which country this company was located?

[brunello97]

You can borrow Mafia money and bet on it....

:cool: Only a guy from Jersey would have this in his arsenal.

There's a line worth swiping.

Mick

I like Ivan's thesis, btw. Guy from Minnesota stationed in the UK picks up a banjolin and leaves it behind in Germany. In Ulrike's attic, which hasn't been "spring cleaned" since 1946 ;)

Still has a wheat back penny in his pocket and not a pfenning or pence (or whatever y'all use) to repair it with? Copper solders nice--what were German pfennies made of at that time?

Would they have been using US dinero on bases in Germany? Likely so, I guess. Some VFW folks here can confirm.

[Jeff Mando]

I like the story! I've seen pennies used as tuner buttons before -- seems like we discussed this on a recent thread -- Buck White's mandolin, perhaps?

[brunello97]

I like the story! I've seen pennies used as tuner buttons before -- seems like we discussed this on a recent thread -- Buck White's mandolin, perhaps?

Yessir, that was the one. (https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?131599-Buck-White-Mandolin&highlight=buck+white)

Mick

[David L]

Never had pennies, but I have a lap steel on which the previous owner had replaced the crumbling tuner buttons with dice (one through six). It looks great.

[UVDaffy]

Hi guys,
good news: we identified the former owner "Vernon Harvey Kittelson" - he landed at Omaha beach in france, was before in GB and then back again. Was in treatment because of the trauma he got at Omaha beach.
I guess that the doctors told him to do something completly different - playing banjo or mandolin-banjo was obviously the best to forget about the stress...
Now we want to make the instrument playable again - only difficulty is, that the mechanics of the machine head are not working - it is not possible to "rotate" some of the pegs.
Is it still possible to buy smething that can replace these mechanical items?
To see what i am looking for, please look at this photo: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=157416&d=1495383179
Thanks a lot for any tipp!!!

[Roger Adams]

Sounds like you have done enough research to confirm the history of the instrument and it's owner. Given that history I would leave the instrument just as it is with a great "back story." It's more valuable/important as an artifact than as a musical instrument.

[allenhopkins]

It's not going to be easy to find replacement tuners for a slotted-head mandolin banjo. My first effort would be to remove the old tuners, clean them thoroughly, perhaps immerse them in oil for a day, then see if it's possible to manipulate each of them, even slightly, to turn. If the ridges on the worm gears, and the teeth in the "sprocket" gears, are not badly damaged, they can often be worked loose even after decades of non-use. Work gently, and try not to use too much force on the old tuner buttons, which may break. You can use pliers on the shaft of the tuner with the missing button.

If you can get the gears to turn, then work them gently back and forth until they move more easily. Eventually you may be able to make them usable, though I doubt that all of them will turn smoothly. You have at least one bent shaft, but that's not fatal; tuners with not-too-extremely bent shafts are still usable.

If this fails, my second step would be to find a shop that deals in, and repairs, vintage instruments, and see if the shop has kept a set of tuners from an unrepairable instrument. Many such shops have a "junk drawer" where tuners, bridges, tailpieces etc. end up, in the hope that they can be used on a fixable instrument in the future.

The parts vendor with the largest catalog that I've found is Allparts. (https://www.allparts.com) They don't show any slotted-head mandolin tuner sets on their website, but they might be worth contacting to see if they're aware of a source. And there might well be European vendors, since slotted-head mandolins and mandolin-banjos were much more common in Europe than over here.

[MikeEdgerton]

Slotted head tuning machines are available but you need to know the spacing center of post to center of post as well as the length of the post. You won't find any that are anywhere near original looking.

[MikeEdgerton]

eBay has them all the time.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Machines-Tuners-Pegs-Tuning-Key-Pearl-Plastic-Knobs-4L-4R-for-Mandolin-H9O2/222982898676?hash=item33ead103f4%3Ag%3Ae0gAAOSwQWx a%7EH3V&_sacat=0&_nkw=mandolin+tuners&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR6.TRC2.A0.H0.Xmandol in+tuners.TRS0

Without the measurements of the original tuners and the replacements you won't know if it will fit.

[DHopkins]

I guess that the doctors told him to do something completly different - playing banjo or mandolin-banjo was obviously the best to forget about the stress...

I suspect learning to play it created it's own traumatic nightmares. :)

[allenhopkins]

...we identified the former owner "Vernon Harvey Kittelson" - he landed at Omaha beach in france, was before in GB and then back again. Was in treatment because of the trauma he got at Omaha beach. I guess that the doctors told him to do something completly different - playing banjo or mandolin-banjo was obviously the best to forget about the stress...

Alternatively, the best way to transfer the stress to those who listened to the shrill little mandolin-banjo. Not an instrument I'd describe as "soothing," IMHO.

[NickR]

The tuning units are German and clearly pre-war and this instrument could have been exported to the UK- tens of thousands of guitars and other stringed instruments were in the early 20th century up until 1939. Of course, Reliance of Birmingham- George Houghton & Sons made plenty of the Melody branded banjolins which are always up on ebay in the UK and often in the USA. Others were also made in Birmingham by Arthur Windsor. I do not pretend to be an expert on these instruments but the British examples mostly have a solid peghead that looks like a typical German mandolin of the early 1900s while the tuners often appear to be German as well. On the basis that this was a huge industry in Germany, I wonder if the necks were imported and bolted on to the metalware made in Birmingham. You see German tuners on instruments made across Europe- they appear on many Italian instruments. Finally, the state-owned musical business of the DDR- Musima, was churning out slothead banjo mandolins until at least the 1960s back in Markneukirchen, Saxony.

[David Lewis]

It's a banjo mandolin or mandolin banjo or banjolin, made in Europe, probably 30's-40's. They are on eBay weekly.

As I understand it, a banjolin has four strings, a mandolin banjo has eight...

[allenhopkins]

As I understand it, a banjolin has four strings, a mandolin banjo has eight...

Technically you are correct; a banjolin is a separate, patented instrument, made in several sizes, with four strings. Here's a brief article from the UK. (http://banjolin.co.uk/banjolin/index.htm)

However, "banjolin" has become common-usage shorthand for "banjo-mandolin" or "mandolin-banjo," which is probably the most correct term. I also swim upstream trying to correct the misuse of the label, but it's probably futile by this time.

(If you notice, I use the term incorrectly in my signature, for space considerations.)