questions from a guitar guy

[Charlie Bernstein]

Hi!

I just picked up mando a few years ago after only playing guitar for most of my life. So (though I know it makes serious mandolistos crazy to hear guit pickers say it), to me it's still kind of a little guitar.

But I know it ain't! I know, I know, I know. So let me ask a few easy questions that will help me see my mandos as creatures apart.

- String gauge: On guitar, I like 'em light: nines on electric, elevens or twelves on acoustic. So what gauge do you think I'd be happiest with on mando? My local music store's lightest are tens. Will that do it? How light do they come?

- Flat picking: I'm told that a mando pick is held differently than a guitar - sort of like making a fist, with the pick kind of under the thumb knuckle. True? I find it awkward. Will I go to hell for holding a mando pick like a guitar pick? Should I work at it or not worry about it?

- Finger picking: I know. Mandos aren't finger-picked. Is it just because it rules out tremolo? I find that trem is the big thing a flat pick does well, and I love making that sound. But finger picks seem to work otherwise. Is this mando abuse? Should I wipe finger picks from my mando muscle memory? Or just go have fun?

Thanks!

[chasray]

I think for mandolin you'll like medium strings best. nines too light.
If you're a good flat picker with a good up/down motion, you probably won't need to change a thing.
Forget finger picking, the tension of the strings is too much. Investigate cross picking!
Of course, have fun. There are no "police" here, right?

[JeffD]

I guess the over arching question is that you can do what ever strikes your fancy. :) There are no rules, no enforced rules anyway. OTOH...

Regarding gauge, on a regular uncompromised mandolin I use D'Addario EJ74s, which are .011, .015, .026, .040. I would suggest starting with them and adjust as you see fit.

I have found with things like pick hold, pinky planting, etc., and other techniques, that regardless where I started I eventually come around to the conventional standard as recommended by the great teachers available. Check this out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmagoBQunZI). The process for me is this. I reach a plateau where I can't seem to get better. I go back and look at the fundamentals, how am I holding the instrument, the pick, etc., and I find some unnoticed non-compliance, fix it, and bang, progress resumes, till I reach the next plateau.

WRT pick hold. I find the control I need requires the least amount of flex in my fingers. Gotta push those strings kind of hard. Using the finger tip hold (sometimes called the ick-a-bug technique as it resembles how one would pick up a dead moth) leaves too much finger flex for me. Curled fingers, pick between thumb pad and just behind the first knuckle of the index finger really works best for me.

The message is that in constantly trying to improve you will eventually come around to the standard techniques anyway.

There are some folks that play without a pick. Check this out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTU4_Apvplw). But it is generally a very minority opinion.

My general comments is IMO, you have to decide do you want to play mandolin, or do you want to play guitar on the mandolin. Things like pick hold or even use of the pick, thickness of the pick, fretting finger attack angle, number of frets each finger is responsible for when playing melody, where the thumb of the fretting hand goes, etc., all make a difference. You want to get rid of your guitarrish accent as soon as you can. :)

Departing from mandolin standards for artistic reasons, to achieve new and innovative musical effects, go for it, absolutely. Departing from mandolin standards because that is what you are used to from your pre-mandolin life, ummm well, that's more problematical.

Seriously you can do whatever is comfortable for you, as long as you are doing it deliberately, out of options, and not because that is just "what you do".

I hope that helps.

[CWRoyds]

Hey Charlie,

I am a life long guitarist exploring Mandoworld too.
For string gauge, I have found EXP74 strings to be best on my mandolin.
They are .011-.046.
I use .010 on Electric guitar, and .012 on Acoustic.
For mando, I think a slightly heavier gauge is better for tone.
One thing I liked best about mandolin was the tight poppy nature of the strings.

As for holding the pick, I am historically a pinky planter on guitar, with a pretty standard guitar pick hold.
Now that I play the mandolin with proper closed floating fist, holding the pick very lightly, I have experimented with playing that way on guitar, and I found a whole new freedom on the guitar, plus my guitar tone has been significantly improved, especially on acoustic.
I think having the weight of your fist behind the stroke makes a big difference.
Once you get the hang of the mando right hand technique, try experimenting with it on guitar.
I think you will be surprised at how it improves freedom of movement and tone.

For most mandolin players, talk of finger picking is probably a non-starter, but who is to say you can't.
Personally I think the flatpack is the way to go for the best tone on a mandolin.
I would also suggest experimenting with different mandolin picks.
The big triangles are the best for me. (Blue Chip CT55, When TF140)
I have found myself using them on the guitar now too.
I always used the Bug Stubby guitar picks on guitar, but now I am mando picks all the way.

Everyone has different likes and dislikes about these things, so it is all down to what you want to do.
As you know, personal guitar techniques can be quite different.
Same with the mandolin, BUT I have found the best way to pull that awesome mandolin sound from your instrument comes from the traditional proper technique. It is best for tone and for freedom for your picking hand.

Experiment and find what is best for you, but I would listen to the common wisdom found here at the cafe on technique etc.
I have found it invaluable.

[EdHanrahan]

Firstly, maybe 70% or 80% of us were guitar players first, so you're in friendly company. Welcome!

On string gauge, at least: Think 12-string guitar. And acoustic. Those who play .012s on their 6-string sometimes opt for .010s on a 12-string; it just makes sense with all the add'l fretting pressure. So, surprisingly, string gauges are somewhat equivalent. Since everyday (read "non-coated") strings are basically cheap, you can experiment. Besides, different instruments respond so differently to different strings that ya just gotta experiment. Electric mandolins are a whole 'nother thing; no comment from me.

Flat picking: Lots of top players, and many of us common dweebs, violate the pick-holding rules. That's what rules are for.

Finger picking: Just go and have fun. Or try to. You'll likely find that the courses are just too close for effective fingerpicking. Welcome to the world of "cross-picking", using a flatpick to emulate fingerpicking. Some small number, however, are fingerpickers - so ya just gotta give it a shot!

But mostly: Enjoy!

Edit: Wow! 3 responses in the time it took me to type this. Obviously some good questions!

[Steve Ostrander]

to me it's still kind of a little guitar.

Other than the size, weight, scale, tuning, number of strings, tonal range, picks, playing technique, string tension, and chords, they're very similar :)

[Mandoplumb]

I don't know why you would have to hold your pick differently unless the way you are used to doesn't work with the tighter strings. Finger picking has been used successfully more or less as a novelty, maybe because it works the fingers too hard or maybe lack of volume. Russel Easter, Don Reno, and I think John Duffy recorded finger picked mandolin. I've heard Little Roy Lewis do it in concerts. Really it's whatever floats your boat. You can't get by with guitar technique because of the lack of sustain in my opinion.

[Denny Gies]

A lot of us use medium gauge strings. Personally I like the Elixir nano coated mediums.
Experiment with different picks; you will settle on one that feels and sounds good.
Finger pickin'? If you like it and it sounds good to you...............do it.
Most importantly, have fun.

[Explorer]

Hi!

Hi, and welcome, friend!


String gauge: On guitar, I like 'em light: nines on electric, elevens or twelves on acoustic. So what gauge do you think I'd be happiest with on mando? My local music store's lightest are tens. Will that do it? How light do they come?

I use really light strings, the GHS A240 Ultra Light set (.009 .013 .020 .032). I play chord melody all the way up to the 22nd fret on my mandolin, and it's a joy to not have to fight with my instrument.

156993


Flat picking: I'm told that a mando pick is held differently than a guitar - sort of like making a fist, with the pick kind of under the thumb knuckle. True? I find it awkward. Will I go to hell for holding a mando pick like a guitar pick? Should I work at it or not worry about it?

You're always free to use whatever grip you want, and to experiment and change the grip. Further, you are always free to change your pick preference.


Finger picking: I know. Mandos aren't finger-picked. Is it just because it rules out tremolo? I find that trem is the big thing a flat pick does well, and I love making that sound. But finger picks seem to work otherwise. Is this mando abuse? Should I wipe finger picks from my mando muscle memory? Or just go have fun?

I occasionally fingerpick my mandolin. I also often don't use a pick, just my nails.

However, I also use really light strings, which don't fight me when they're being plucked. With heavy strings, you need to work the fingers harder because of tension *and* the damping caused by high string tension. Unless an instrument is really overbuilt, the more string tension you have pushing down on the soundboard, the less able it is to vibrate. The use of medium and heavy strings by most players is why why most players find the string tensions on mandolin too high, and the volume too low, for fingerpicking.

One more little observation: the thicker the pick, the less string overtones and harmonics which are generated. I like a lively sound on occasion, and so. I use the Cool Picks "Cat Tongue" .053 teardrop when I'm actually using a pick. A thin, flexible pick can impart more energy to a string because it flexes and springs forward at a higher velocity than just a rigid pick. I also have a few felt and rubber picks to get more fundamental without pick click. Be sure to experiment with different kinds of pick, noting not just the tonal differences, but also what the actual tonal difference consists of.

Good luck!

[rockies]

All good advice however if you are a good guitar fingerpicker .. no problem with going with one of your strengths. Take a listen to or watch some Radim Zenkl videos, unbelievable musician in all genres and fingerpicks on mandolin. However also watch some Mike Marshall and Chris Thile videos on basic playing with a pick.
Dave

[Randi Gormley]

There are ultralight strings (.009 iirc) that are recommended for very old bowlbacks so they exist; I guess it depends on why you want light strings -- arthritis or to save your fingers while callouses are being formed come to mind, plus a delicate mandolin that won't support heavier strings. A modern mandolin is usually designed to accommodate heavier strings for optimum volume but -- as has been said -- play around with different weights. you can design your own set if you want since you can buy strings individually. have at.

As for pick hold and fingerpicking - some of that depends on what pick you find most comfortable (I like a little jazz pick so there's less space to hold the thing) and what works best on your mandolin. If finger picks work, have at. If you want to finger pick and have strong enough nails, why not? But you'll probably find as you move further into the instrument that some of those choices will be made on their own as you become more familiar with mandolin technique. There's a reason why a lot of stuff is done the way it is. sometimes you need to take tradition on faith.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Wow - that's a lot of advice, all good. Thanks, gang!

I watched that Mike Marhsall video that Jeff posted, and it was loaded with good stuff. No more laying back of the couch for me!

Now excuse me, I'm off to the woodshed . . . .