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jeffshuniak
Mar-08-2004, 11:22am
I am in the very early stages of zouk shopping. I am thinking dino bersis because he is here in the states, but expensive. of course, well worth the expense for the convenience of an american luthier.

I am wondering if I will go with the six or eight string, naturally being kinda lazy, I am thinking six should be quicker to pick up, but then, will I be losing a lot? seems so.... does anyone out there, recording artists, still play with the six string bazoukis?
or is it kinda obsolete?

vkioulaphides
Mar-08-2004, 11:39am
Well, Vasilis Tsitsanis, the "Master of Them All" played the three-course instrument all his life; as did all his predecessors, i.e. Vamvakáris, Skarvélis, Máthesis, et al. The three-course, six-string instrument has been much revived in the past couple of decades and is becoming very, very popular in its own right.

The real question, Jeff, is what era repertoire do you want to play? If you want to play the rebetika from the1920's-1930's and the whole, original rep of pre-war bouzouki, (as I do), then the three-course instrument is the obvious choice. If, on the other hand, you want to play the post-war, pop-art bouzouki rep, well... suit yourself to your own tastes.

Also, if you intend to accompany singers (esp. female vocalists), with their key-specific preferences, you may prefer the guitar-like tuning of the 8-stringer, as the D-A-D 6-stringer does naturally favor the D-D range of most (untrained), folk/popular male singers. Several things to consider...

jeffshuniak
Mar-08-2004, 11:53am
well I hear from "everybody" that the prewar is the only (best) rebitiko. I did read on dino's website that the 4th course was added during the 40's or 50's ,but the article did mention the 4th course actually dating back to around 1900, so I was a little confused, did any of those legends play the 8 string, but you seem to be confirming what I suspected.... the old rebitiko is the 6 string bazouki's music..

you know, vic, I dont really know much about this ....... novice....
I have some limited reb. sheet music, hint hint... if you know anything you can do for me here.... without going to greece.... are there anybooks #for sale you know of..? #

so, thanks for your view of the post war rebitiko, I get that from others too, the music lovers you know, I will go with the six string... the repetoir I wish to play would be this pre war, good -stuff.

jeffshuniak
Mar-08-2004, 11:55am
I will find out dino's price for bazouki 6 string today...
I would like to find out if I can save a significant amount in greece, or should I just go with dino here in the states.....

jeffshuniak
Mar-08-2004, 12:25pm
wow, I just talked to dino, he starts his zouks at $1000 for black walnut body. he is trying to talk me out of the 3 string. he says my hands and fingers are too small (he has pics of me playing) and I would really be stretching to play a 3 string's tuning. (born for the little instruments, I guess) thats why I oringally liked the baglama and the tzoura, but the zouki is the one everyone knows...

areent they tuned similar anyway? 6&8 stings, whats the diff. one f string course?

Dolamon
Mar-08-2004, 1:12pm
Jeff - why not go with the tzouras? These are normally six string, shorter scale and often, are set up for electric. I'll keep digging around and see which sites I have filed that are still functioning. The tzouras is used (often) as a split voice between a baglama and a big zouk ... but it is much easier to play with smaller hands. As far as everyone knowing what a bouzouki is compared to a tzouras ... tell them this is the racing version! Lighter weight and faster in the turns ...

There is a company in Toronto which is selling some introductory books on Bouzouki playing and then, someone in Ohio had a full set of Taxima but - he was expensive for what he was offering. A question - how much of the early Rembetika / Mourmourika music have you heard? Some of the old stuff ... is pretty hard edged and the lyrics won't translate into anything singable in public. Tough tunes from tough times.

jeffshuniak
Mar-08-2004, 1:21pm
I dont plan on singing. anything could happen I suppose. I like those tzouras, too. god if I cnly had enough money for all of them. this builder I spoke with, he built my mandolin, he said the chords for the bzki 6 string is what would be hard. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif I am still thinking, I'll put a down payment for somehting by the end of next week , I figure.

Alekos
Mar-08-2004, 1:53pm
Hi Jeff, I'm playing greek bouzouki myself. I found the six string bouzouki as a very unique instrument. Victor is right, that the sixstringers are connected mainly with great prewar virtuozos like Tsitsanis, Chiotis, Skarvelis, etc.. the thechnique is more simillar to turkish "saz" technique than the guitar/mandolin technique - so for the most players(also if they are Greeks) it is very difficuelt to play. Eightstringer offers more of the mandolin/guitar technique(I'm playing one). Also the construction is a bit different(absention of truss rod, etc). Try to ask Pavlos Kakouris:pavlos@citlink.net, he imports bouzoukia from Greece and he will surely help you! By the way, there will be soon an greek show in the NY.. I'm attaching a flyer

vkioulaphides
Mar-08-2004, 2:34pm
Jeff, I am not sure I follow Dino's point: If your hand-span is small, then, (as Dion correctly suggests), get a tzoura. Those sound even more "authentic", more nasal, more twangy, more saz-like than bowlback six-stringers.

But that is all a matter of scale and you can get both short-scale AND long-scale zouks, 6-stringers OR 8-stringers. So, Dino's point, while perhaps true, is inconclusive.

I suspect that Dino means this: The 6-stringer requires #A LOT more shifts; the 8-stringer, being tuned in quasi-guitar fashion, is built for across-the-strings playing.

More of this anon. And Jacob is right, as usual: The lowest D-course on the 6-stringer is in octaves.

P.S. [QUOTE]"I'll put a down payment for somehting by the end of next week"

Nooooooooooo... you are going WAY too fast, my friend. This is no time to be speaking of down-payments! Shop around, look around...

J. Mark Lane
Mar-08-2004, 3:54pm
Just noticed this thread. Jeff, if you are in the NY area you are welcome to stop by my place and try my Troubador bouzouki. It cost $209. Yes, $209. Made in Romania. It's really remarkably good for the price. I actually have two (one to string as a zouk, the other as an OM, but they are both long-scale like the zouk).

Mark

jeffshuniak
Mar-09-2004, 8:33am
mark, I live in fl.
I suppose my thread implied that I could easily go to new york, this is not neccessari,ly the case, I would have to board an airplane, take a cab... or drive 30 hours or something. I would do it because I like new york anyway, I have some friends up that way...

vic, yes I am moving pretty fast... this actually has been on my mind for some time, ever since we first discussed baglamas..... I like the tzouras, I like the baglamas, I would like to hear some more of them, songs were I can specifally tell which one is which.... I know the baglama sound, but the tzoura, I am not so sure. also I right now play with just one guitar player (at a time). so it seems to me like the bazouki-guitar would be your basic work horse kinda duet, http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
or I could be the first guy around town to come around with a tzoura or baglama. living near tarpon springs, I see plenty of the bazouki guitar combination. I suppose I do have some thinking to do.... I wonder how the tzoura or baglama and guitar duo will sell with greek restaraunt owners. some of them really like music and probably love these other instruments, but a majority will know the bazouki first? sorry to sound so business end of it, I am in it for the art and beauty, but I feel like I have to make some money.. I mean the cock roaches in my walls wont appreciate the music one single bit.

vkioulaphides
Mar-09-2004, 8:45am
The "business of music" is right where I live, too, Jeff; no apologies needed.

Here, then, is a crazy (but workable) solution: If you want what "most people recognize as a bouzouki", well, go ahead and get a bouzouki, a common 8-stringer.

Do make sure you get one with not TOO long a scale, nor one with an unduly wide fingerboard; the former on account of your hand-span, the latter on account of the greater fluency narrower necks allow.

THEN, when time allows, have a luthier build you an alternate bridge and nut, with appropriate spacings for 6 strings—#neither nut nor bridge are glued onto the instrument, so switching should not be too big a hassle. This way, you can always experiment, stringing the instrument either way.

My $0.02 worth.

jeffshuniak
Mar-09-2004, 9:03am
I havnt yet found too much info on any tzoura players from the Ol' days. who are the tzoura virtuosi, (just for curiosity) or the famous tzoura players

vkioulaphides
Mar-09-2004, 9:33am
Oh, I don't know that you will find any tzoura specialists, Jeff. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif #And "famous" is too big a word for this. Nick Máthesis, one of the "old guard", usually played the tzouras (as opposed, that is, to the bouzouki).

I have a brochure with all these instruments (and more) from the Nakas firm, Jeff. Now, if you PROMISE me #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif #not to buy them all at once (be good, now), I could mail it to you, just for your reference. Mind you, this is NOT a recommendation that you buy from Nakas or any instrument in general. Your call.

jeffshuniak
Mar-09-2004, 10:21am
well I wont be buying the lyre of crete anytime soon. # it should be safe to mail me the brochure, I wont do anything sudden. I can only afford to buy them all one at a time
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

you have my address still?

vkioulaphides
Mar-09-2004, 11:07am
It's in the mail, Jeff. Enjoy— but hold the purse-strings tight, OK? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

jeffshuniak
Mar-09-2004, 2:22pm
so, what I dont understand... is .. the tzoura, in the "common mentality" is this exclusively a secondary instrument ?

vkioulaphides
Mar-10-2004, 8:33am
Less than "secondary", Jeff. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif The tiny baglama, in essence an "octave/piccolo 6-string bouzouki" is quite current and an almost ubiquitous accessory of just about any bouzouki-player. The traditional rebetiko ensemble is first and second bouzouki, baglama, and guitar (and, of course, various and sundry vocals).

The tzoura is closer to the folk roots of the long-necked lutes; if I were looking for one, I would in fact opt for a carved-bowl instrument, NOT a staved-bowl, bouzouki-like miniature. But these are just my own biases and need not affect your choices. I stand by my recommendation above for an interchangeable 6/8-string bouzouki, IF, that is, I understand your needs correctly.

jeffshuniak
Mar-10-2004, 11:30am
well, the train has left the station... lift-off.... its in the oven...

I just put a down payment down with dino, his student model. died walnut bowl,ebony fingerboard, same spruce top as all models. 8 string. he said he should be able to complete one in only a few weeks. wow. I will be playing a zouk very soon. I better tune my guitar quasi-bazouki and get a head start.

vkioulaphides
Mar-10-2004, 11:42am
Congrats, Jeff. As for tuning,

[QUOTE]" I better tune my guitar quasi-bazouki and get a head start."

well, the 8-stringer's CFAD will be just like the guitar's upper four strings (i.e. DGBE), a step down; so, same fingerings exactly. I don't know that you would need to tune your guitar a whole-step down "in preparation".

As to the "student model" notion, those instruments are usually as good as the luthier who built them. In other words, the so-called "higher-end" models are often more ornate, more richly decorated than their low-end cousins. Luthiers may object to my saying so (as it undercuts the premise of the pricing on their higher models) but the low-end products of a fine atelier often sound just as good as the "fancy" ones, IMO.

Enjoy your new baby!

jeffshuniak
Mar-10-2004, 12:17pm
maybe its silly... especially I can see if you are older and more experienced, you may think... gee, the intervals are all the same, whats the problem... .


for me, its the actual string tuning itself, not the Intervals to which they are tuned, that I am worried.

for example, I have played guitar since I was , gee, six or seven years old I think... mandolin since only about 15, and more seriously in the last few years....
however, mandolin has completely devoured all my brain powers. when I play the guitar, which I have much more experience at, I frequently , accidently, go into my "default" mandolin tuning, the results, wrong notes are played.


I do realize the intervals are the same, mayber I should "man-up" and learn to deal with it, intervallically, numberically, theoritically, however you properly say that...
but it seems so certain and specific, if I actually tune to the bazouki tuning.

the guitar would be like the zouk from the second fret, right? thats kinda like learning second position before learning first position?

I know its no big deal....

vkioulaphides
Mar-10-2004, 12:31pm
[QUOTE]"the guitar would be like the zouk from the second fret, right? "

Yup; you got it!

Dolamon
Mar-10-2004, 1:39pm
Victor, Jeff have you seen Skeezos? # (http://www.skeezo.com/home)(Do you like that one Victor?) This is one of the more accessible Bouzouiki sites I've seen with some fairly interesting material. The "Bouzouki Basics" section is a key to at least starting to think about what makes this instrument so different - from either a mandolin or a guitar.

For some unknown reason, www.altavista.com has more listings than Google. There are probably 40 or 50 sites listed there but Skeezos seems to be the friendliest one of the the bunch - that I've seen. But - I still can't pin down the one site which was importing and selling various instructional books ...

vkioulaphides
Mar-10-2004, 4:18pm
Yes, Dion, in fact I have seen that site before, but never looked at it in any detail until now that you brought it to my attention again; very nice place to browse.

And, bearing in mind my own biases, in the gallery of instruments, I particularly liked the trichordo (a.k.a. 3-course, 6-string bouzouki) that Karolos (i.e. Tsakirian, Jr.) built. I saw and spoke to Karolos last summer in Athens, as I had seen a similar instrument on eBay that went past due date with hardly a bid. Sad, very sad... On the other hand, he did sell it for top dollar (ehm... euro, actually) soon thereafter. The opening (and only) asking price on eBay had been $1,300, I think. The instrument, well-crafted but unadorned, was well, well worth the price!

jeffshuniak
Mar-11-2004, 8:26am
thanks. I like the scales, basically gypsy or byzantine, not like you guys need me to say that.. always stating the obvious, silly jeff.