Loar tailpiece Cover

[Rich Michaud]

Dear Cafers-
I have recently acquired a February 18, 1924 Loar. The tail piece is different that other vintage Gibsons that I have seen. In particular, the detail on the top on the traditional covers is not there and the signature Gibson line is different. I will try to post a picture of the one on the instrument and an extra vintage one I have for comparison. I welcome any comments you may have on this esoteric subject.

Thanks in advance,
Rich Michaud

[Rich Michaud]

Dear Cafers-
I have recently acquired a February 18, 1924 Loar. The tail piece is different that other vintage Gibsons that I have seen. In particular, the detail on the top on the traditional covers is not there and the signature Gibson line is different. I will try to post a picture of the one on the instrument and an extra vintage one I have for comparison. I welcome any comments you may have on this esoteric subject.

Thanks in advance,
Rich Michaud

Please ignore my misspelling of "tailpiece"

[goaty76]

Congrats on the cool mandolin. Yup, the Loar signed instruments have a different style tailpiece cover. Check out these in the archive if you want to scan through the pics and get acquainted with the features.

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/list_mandolins.pl?loar

If you come across another one let me know (the cover, not the mandolin).


Phil

[MikeEdgerton]

This (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/76967) 1924 H5 has the same tailpiece cover. This (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/80417) 1924 F5 has the same cover. I'm assuming Gibson used them for a period of time without the scroll work. These also look like they were engraved as opposed to being stamped.

There are later mandolins with the other cover. The problem with covers is that they can be moved. My friend has a pineapple cover on his 60's F5.

[MikeEdgerton]

Please ignore my misspelling of "tailpiece"

I fixed it for you. :cool:

[AlanN]

Dang, Rich. Just....dang :mandosmiley:

[JFDilmando]

You're just comparing a stamped cover from all the other models to a Loar... all the Loars have engraved script, and the edges have fine engraved cross hatch all around.... this one has all, or most of that worn off....

[eightmoremiles]

Congratulations. You have gotten into the family of Loars signed on Feb 18, 1924, and I think that may be the best date to have on your label. John Reischman, Chris Thile, even Lloyd himself had Feb 18 F5s. Can you tell us the serial number? Is it in the archives? Any historical associations, or other provenance? You might want to have a replacement tp cover made, and keep the original in a safe place. Same for the pickguard, if you use one. Enjoy it, and 'whip it like a mule'; it won't quit on you!

[John Soper]

Rich: I can't find the "green with envy" emoticon... Congrats!

[MikeEdgerton]

A past thread on the subject can be found here (https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?21340-anybody-need-an-original-Loar-F-5-tailpiece-cover).

[Rich Michaud]

Thanks Mike and the rest of you folks for helping me out by answering my questions. As always, it's a pleasure to be part of this mandolin community.
Rich

[Don Grieser]

Hey Rich, congrats! I picked a few tunes with you in the vendor tent at RockyGrass many years ago. Don't know if you remember or not, but congrats anyway.

[Rich Michaud]

Don of course I remember. I will be at Merlefest again in a few weeks with my Loar-if you are going please stop by and give it a whirl.
Same to you John, Alan and Steve.
Rich

[Spruce]

You might want to have a replacement tp cover made, and keep the original in a safe place.

I recently had some covers engraved, and they came out very nice...
They are not silver plated, but still look pretty darn good...
My plan was to antique them...
(One goes to a friend--I think I have 3-4)...
I can post pics when I get back home in a week...

[William Smith]

Thanks Mike and the rest of you folks for helping me out by answering my questions. As always, it's a pleasure to be part of this mandolin community.
Rich

Looks like the right cover just worn, the Loars were engraved, Curious did you go for the early feb 18th batch or the later batch? Also Virzi or non virzi? I think the feb 18th are the best Loars, real refined tone on em. Awesome for you man, I know if I had the cash flow I'd be buying one of the Feb 18th 24's. Koolman simply Kool:cool:

[mandroid]

Were the covers ever made in the same alloy as the frets, so not needing plating,
because of the high Nickel content?


:confused:

[Jeff Mando]

Congrats on the Loar, Rich! :cool:

[Spruce]

Were the covers ever made in the same alloy as the frets, so not needing plating,
because of the high Nickel content?


I, too, would like to know what the originals were made out of...?
I sent my engraver a batch of covers, and they were not the "right" metal, and too hard to engrave....

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Spruce, I had my Loar cover analyzed. I'm out of town at the moment, but will post the alloy in a few days.
Rich, congrats on your purchase.

[mandroid]

I, too, would like to know what the originals were made out of...?
I sent my engraver a batch of covers, and they were not the "right" metal, and too hard to engrave....

I can see the hand engraving having that issue,

tooling up for a stamped 'engraving' is a bit more up front cost ,
for raised lettering in hardened steel..

"If at First You Don't Succeed, Try a Bigger Hammer"




;)

[Tobin]

You didn't happen to buy this Loar at a flea market, did you? :grin:

[Loudloar]

I, too, would like to know what the originals were made out of...?
The Loar F-5 covers were made from solid nickel silver and then silver plated. Everything was hand engraved; the script lettering of "The Gibson", the flourish above and below, and the border which is called "wiggle work". In this example the silver plating has been worn away from more than half of the cover revealing the nickel silver.

Steve
155975

[Spruce]

155975

That's the look I'm going for on the ones I'm antiquing...
Wish me luck... ;)

[goaty76]

So....is anyone making a nice reproduction today? One that could be put on a Loar missing it's original cover.

Phil

[Spruce]

So....is anyone making a nice reproduction today? One that could be put on a Loar missing it's original cover.


If you did, in milliseconds you would be facing the wrath of one Lucian Beavers--an intellectual property attorney in Nashville, TN.
Or at least this was the case 20 years ago...ugh.

It's not that hard to find a suitable cover, send it to a good engraver who will charge you about 75 bucks to engrave it, and then antique it using various methods...

[Jeff Mando]

Sounds like a boy named Sue........

[MikeEdgerton]

If you did, in milliseconds you would be facing the wrath of one Lucian Beavers--an intellectual property attorney in Nashville, TN...

http://www.iplawgroup.com/

I'm guessing his friends call him Wayne.

[Spruce]

I'm guessing his friends call him Wayne.

Friends?
Ohhhhh, right.
Henry....

[Timbofood]

You guys!

[MikeEdgerton]

I'm pretty sure his momma called him Lucian Wayne. :cool:

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Here's the tp cover alloy of Loar #75319, silver plating worn off. Nickel silver, indeed. (XRF-measured in mass %.)

Zn 24.4
Cu 56.6
Ni 17.8
Co 0.05
Fe 0.23
Mn 0.18
Pb 0.02

[Timbofood]

Well, now we just need to have a foundry make some sheet material and find a punch presto make them up with authentic metallurgical content! Engrave and silver plate at your own risk of corporate wrath.
Honestly, thank you Henry the more we know, the more we understand.

[Loudloar]

Well, now we just need to have a foundry make some sheet material and find a punch presto make them up with authentic metallurgical content! Engrave and silver plate at your own risk of corporate wrath.

Sheet nickel silver is readily available and is plenty close enough to the Loar Tailpiece metallurgy. I have hand-made a couple of tailpiece covers out of it. One was a Loar reproduction and the other was an engraved cloud TP for a Martin bowlback. It's not complicated to cut out and bend the material into a tailpiece. And nickel silver is fairly easy to hand engrave. The lettering for "The Gibson" requires some skill and a very sharp engraver. The wiggle work around the edge is fairly easy.

Steve

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Well, now we just need to have a foundry make some sheet material and find a punch presto make them up with authentic metallurgical content! Engrave and silver plate at your own risk of corporate wrath.
Honestly, thank you Henry the more we know, the more we understand.

Timbo, you're welcome.
Despite your "honestly" I sense some sarcasm. No problem, we're on the same page.

[Spruce]

OK, here's what I've got...
I had 4 of these engraved...
Look OK? Be honest... ;)

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2866/33210021234_ef24dcb5da_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/SAE3i1)

I'll antique a couple of them soon so we can have an idea of what they could look like...

[Loudloar]

I had 4 of these engraved...
Look OK? Be honest...

The tailpiece engraving looks pretty good. If you have more done you could suggest your engraver use a straight edge as a guide for the wiggle work along the straight edges. You can see that yours wanders slightly from being done freehand, and the originals are quite straight. The lettering is pretty nice. The uprights of the letters are a bit wider cuts than the original but that's being picky. Lettering is hard to do and this is a pretty darn good job. I did engrave one of these and if this was my work I'd be satisfied. My 2 cents.

Steve

[Timbofood]

Timbo, you're welcome.
Despite your "honestly" I sense some sarcasm. No problem, we're on the same page.
No sarcasm directed at you, the more we know the better the understanding. The sarcasm is purely the realm of "corporate wrath". Now, we should all have a wonderful weekend!

[Oliver A.]

OK, here's what I've got...
I had 4 of these engraved...
Look OK? Be honest... ;)


Spruce, I'm gonna' tell you as a friend, just like I would tell you if you had a piece of parsley stuck to your teeth. That engraving is a bit rough and creeping up on crude. I honestly can't imagine a Loar owner being happy with that as a replacement cover. It might be fine for modern Gibson F-5s that need a replacement but not for a $150,000.00+ instrument. 'just sayin'.

[Spruce]

Spruce, I'm gonna' tell you as a friend, just like I would tell you if you had a piece of parsley stuck to your teeth. That engraving is a bit rough and creeping up on crude. I honestly can't imagine a Loar owner being happy with that as a replacement cover. It might be fine for modern Gibson F-5s that need a replacement but not for a $150,000.00+ instrument. 'just sayin'.

Yep....
Trying to rust it out to distract the eye... ;)

[MikeEdgerton]

If I was doing that I would simply forsake the wiggle work and it would look more like the OP's where the wiggle work is apparently worn off.

You're looking to make it look like it's been used anyway, right?

[Oliver A.]

Mike has a good idea. Maybe you could introduce some wear before doing your aging process. I'm wondering if maybe a buffing wheel with some course compound couldn't wear down the wiggle work as well as the lettering to subdue the engraving some.

[Jeff Mando]

Exactly. Like the way coins get worn over time rubbing against other coins.

[Spruce]

Exactly. Like the way coins get worn over time rubbing against other coins.


Mike has a good idea. Maybe you could introduce some wear before doing your aging process. I'm wondering if maybe a buffing wheel with some course compound couldn't wear down the wiggle work as well as the lettering to subdue the engraving some.


If I was doing that I would simply forsake the wiggle work and it would look more like the OP's where the wiggle work is apparently worn off.

You're looking to make it look like it's been used anyway, right?

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2935/34141438435_60a83e784b_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/U1XNbg)

;)

[Jeff Mando]

Reminds me of something I read on a motorcycle forum for "cleaning" the rust from the inside of vintage motorcycle tanks -- the common solution is to coat the inside of the tank with a chemical "liner" which covers and supposedly neutralizes the rust, but doesn't remove the rust. This guy says put some small stones in your tank, put the cap on it, wrap the outside in a couple bath towels secured with string AND, here it is, drumroll please, put the tank in the dryer for a couple hours (low or no heat). Supposedly, the stones will remove every speck of rust and the inside will look like it is chrome plated. The guy added, don't try this on your wife's dryer as it is deafening to be around. Go to the laundromat, put a couple hours worth of quarters in it, then wait in your car......

[Tobin]

You could probably do what reloaders do to clean brass casings. Use a rotating tumbler filled with ground walnut shells (or a more coarse/gritty medium, if desired). Turn it on and check it periodically to see how much wear it's applying. Granted, it will wear everything fairly evenly, not like a "real world" wear pattern. But it's easy to control and monitor.

[Spruce]

Granted, it will wear everything fairly evenly, not like a "real world" wear pattern.

That's what 2 layers of duct tape is for... ;)
(Man, I'm really hijacking this thread....)

[Spruce]

OK, here's what they look like after the first round of antiquing...
Much better than "before"...

[Timbofood]

Getting there....

[Spruce]

Getting there....

Man, how do the original tailpiece covers get so hammered??
I've thrown 3-4 hours of time in the rock tumbler, and a month in a vinegar/salt water bath, and it's nowhere close to the wear you see on a lot of the Loars...
Go figure... :disbelief:

[pops1]

There was a product I used decades ago to rust, and I mean rust, the out side of a muzzle loader to make it look older. Works fast and very well. You may try a gun shop that specializes in vintage muzzle loaders to make it go faster. Most likely some kind of acid bath. It washed off with water though.

[dhergert]

Man, how do the original tailpiece covers get so hammered??
I've thrown 3-4 hours of time in the rock tumbler, and a month in a vinegar/salt water bath, and it's nowhere close to the wear you see on a lot of the Loars...
Go figure... :disbelief:

I don't have a signed Loar, but I've seen a lot of TP cover wear caused just from being carried around in a case. The cloth on the inside case lid in contact with the tailpiece, combined with years of vibration caused by carrying by hand, by car, by aircraft, by train, etc... This combined with a little bit of aged fine dust, sand or dirt can turn that soft fuzzy cloth into fine sandpaper which has worn the plating of a whole lot of tailpieces.

I'd agree with Timbofood though, your work is showing great progress Spruce. If I had a Loar with a missing TP cover I'd be watching this thread pretty carefully.

Might benefit from a little custom hand touch-up pretty soon. Bicycle chain?

:mandosmiley:

[Spruce]

Bicycle chain?

:mandosmiley:

Yeah, I dunno...
Check out this Loar cover...rust city.

[Jeff Mando]

Yeah, I dunno...
Check out this Loar cover...rust city.

Most of the guitar relic guys will age metal parts with either muriatic or hydrochloric acid with the parts suspended in the "vapors" in a container, with proper precautions for ventilation and skin and eye protection. There's tons of "how to" videos on youtube....

Some results are quite convincing and some look very amateur and homemade. I think timing is the key.

I tried to relic some nickel pickup covers by throwing them on the porch behind the swing and I left them there for about three years. When I finally needed them for a project, I checked them and they still looked almost new after three years of rain and snow and heat...............acid is the way to go, baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cool::cool::cool:

[dhergert]

The mu or hc acid vapor trick works on nickle plating. Not sure about nickle-silver/German Silver. I may be wrong on this but I don't think it does anything with real silver plating or gold plating.

For nickle plating, the easier acid route is using circuit board etching compound, it is much easier to work with and to control the "aging" process. Still should use gloves but a simple dunk in the compound, in a glass or ceramic bowl, in normal kitchen-type ventilation is typically considered safe. Just rinse with water when the item is sufficiently "old".

These processes are very popular among banjo people. Lots of nickle plated metal parts. If I remember correctly, I think Greg Rich had something to do with developing the mu acid vapor method at least among banjo folks. Then everyone discovered circuit board etching compound and the rest is "history".

Btw, the trick with authentic looking nickle plate acid aging is to do it un-evenly.

:mandosmiley:

[Spruce]

For nickle plating, the easier acid route is using circuit board etching compound...





Btw, the trick with authentic looking nickle plate acid aging is to do it un-evenly.


Tried them both on that tailpiece that I posted a pic of, along with muriatic...
It just laughed at me... ;)

[dhergert]

I'm guessing your tailpiece is nickle-silver then? And undoubtedly that tells us the acid aging process doesn't work on nickle-silver.

This is still good though... Like Edison, by your shared experience we're learning 10,000 ways not to age a nickle-silver tailpiece.

I guess I can add one thought about nickle-silver... I've got an 1889 S.S.Stewart banjo that has what is known as a spun-over rim, where the outer covering of the rim is nickle-silver sheeting that has been spin-molded (lathe) over an inner rim of wood. The nickel silver has lots of dings and dents and is clearly well used. But as far as metal color and texture is concerned, it's as fresh as the day it was made, and that's with little or no effort to clean it. Stains and colors don't appear to adhere to it.

Again, if my assumption is correct that your tailpiece is nickle-silver, it may be that you'll need to silver plate or nickle plate (if possible) your tailpiece in order to degrade it to look like the plating has worn off of it. Nickle-silver may simply not "age" well; that may be one of the reasons people like to use it.

Edit: There is a fair amount of copper in nickle-silver. Have you tried eggs/sulfer, or amonia?

:mandosmiley:

[Loudloar]

If you want to age nickel silver, just get some fingerprints and sweat on it and it will start to get dull in a few months. And it will look natural because it IS naturally tarnished. If your arm is rubbing on part of it that area will stay less tarnished but even that unevenness will present a nice aged look.

Steve

[Timbofood]

Liver of sulphur is sometimes used to give an aged look on some silver jewelry, not sure if it's applicable but, not expensive stuff for an experiment, drug stores used to have it.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Sorry guys. I missed this thread. With all due respect, I'll go on a limb here and suggest that the OP's cover is a reproduction I made in the early '80's. It appears to be solid Sterling Silver which was all I used and it would account for the wear. I also was unable to get my bend radius's as sharp as the originals. I could be wrong..just saying

The sure fire way to tell if I made it is to check the thickness of the metal to that other one. If the Loar one is a gage or two thicker, it's one of mine

[BradKlein]

Here's the tailpiece cover from 'Brutus', distressed by the Gibson boys in the Summer of 2005. Joe Vest would probably remember the details of its making. About 1/3 of the plating is worn off, and when the base layer gets a little green from sweat, I wipe it with a polishing cloth so I may have lost some of the factory tarnish. But I like a brighter sound. ;-)

157680

[Spruce]

Here's the tailpiece cover from 'Brutus', distressed by the Gibson boys in the Summer of 2005. Joe Vest would probably remember the details of its making. About 1/3 of the plating is worn off, and when the base layer gets a little green from sweat, I wipe it with a polishing cloth so I may have lost some of the factory tarnish. But I like a brighter sound. ;-)

157680

Well, that engraving makes mine look darn good... ;)

[BradKlein]

Well, that engraving makes mine look darn good... ;)

THAT wasn't very nice, Bruce. I think the engraving by Gibson is quite good, not an exact replica down to every squiggle, but very well executed and very suitable for a Gibson-made Loar copy.

[Spruce]

THAT wasn't very nice, Bruce.

Just making an observation, just as others honestly dissed the engraving on mine... ;)

Serious, those squiggles are quite a ways off the mark, no?
(Compared to the originals, that is...)

[Timbofood]

But remember Bruce, you asked for honesty!;)
Yours are getting there!

[Spruce]

But remember Bruce, you asked for honesty!;)


I can take it... ;)

[Darryl Wolfe]

Just making an observation, just as others honestly dissed the engraving on mine... ;)

Serious, those squiggles are quite a ways off the mark, no?
(Compared to the originals, that is...)

Yes, way off

[Spruce]

Yes, way off

...not to mention "The Gibson"...

I'm getting the impression that engraving these things is not all that easy to do...

[Timbofood]

Yep, you're tough enough, Bruce!

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here is one I did in the later 70's

An older gentleman at a local jewelry store engraved it. I gave him a borrowed real Loar cover and just said to duplicate it, not any prettier

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/71901

157940

[Spruce]

...not any prettier...

...but maybe the best so far?
(...and maybe needs a lunchtime roll in the rock tumbler??) ;)

[William Smith]

Yeh I bet them outside squiggles are not too easy and on real Loar covers isn't there a spot on the bass side that overlaps a bit?

[Timbofood]

Here we have the most authentic reproduction, as with yours Bruce, this is hand work. It's not done with a power engraver hand held. It's done with a lozenge graver ( I think) and a well practiced hand. If there is any overlapping even on the old ones it's done to try to make the whole line look "right" and sometimes small mistakes happen, this is the very nature of hand work. It very well may be excellent but, rarely is it truly perfect.
Practice will make any engraver better but, fewer and fewer people are taking the time to really learn the intricacies of the disappearing art of this style of engraving.
I wonder if the older gent who did yours, Darryl, is still doing any engraving? He was "older" then, he would fall into the "pretty old" thirty odd years later.
This thread is really interesting to me from many sides, the engraving aspect, the historical significance, the artistic side too. It's all fascinating to me!

[Gary Hedrick]

Here is one I did in the later 70's

An older gentleman at a local jewelry store engraved it. I gave him a borrowed real Loar cover and just said to duplicate it, not any prettier

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/71901

157940

The one I bought from you in the mid 80's was pretty darn close.....


with all the less than stellar craftsmanship that went into the mandolins of the 20's isn't some of this a bit of a "tempest in a tea pot"?

[Spruce]

...with all the less than stellar craftsmanship that went into the mandolins of the 20's isn't some of this a bit of a "tempest in a tea pot"?

Well, I guess it's better to try to match the "less than stellar craftsmanship" with modern "less than stellar craftsmanship" rather than "waaaaaaaay less than stellar craftsmanship".... ;)

In any event, I'm learning that some antiquing really softens the eye's acceptance of work that is apparently really hard to pull off...

[Darryl Wolfe]

same one Gary.....it was easiest for me to look up

[shylock3]

Well, I guess it's better to try to match the "less than stellar craftsmanship" with modern "less than stellar craftsmanship" rather than "waaaaaaaay less than stellar craftsmanship".... ;)

In any event, I'm learning that some antiquing really softens the eye's acceptance of work that is apparently really hard to pull off...

157950
I thought I'd throw these into the discussion, not that they are great but I guess if you had a Loar and needed a tailpiece one of these would do til a better one came along.
I found these on Ebay several years back, I think they were brass looking. I had a jeweler friend gold and nickle plate them. I think if he would have put a little more plating on they would have looked better. The engraving looks to be hand done. Sorry for the pictures, could never seem to get the light right.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Those are Gibson Master Model TP's

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Were those made in Czechoslovakia by any chance?

[Gary Hedrick]

same one Gary.....it was easiest for me to look up

Still miss owning that instrument.....great sounding instrument with a great history attached to it!

[Darryl Wolfe]

Were those made in Czechoslovakia by any chance?

I believe so. I do know that the width dimension is unique. You cannot hardly make the cover fit on original base

[Spruce]

Salt bath for two months....

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4323/35776632722_812be2c7ce_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WvsAtd)

...and the result...

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4307/35905926686_7c38ab9954_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WGTg4u)

[Timbofood]

Now, you're closing in on it!

[your_diamond]

You didn't happen to buy this Loar at a flea market, did you? :grin:

You can learn a lot by watching -- Yogi (insert emoji with mouth open down to the floor).

I may never be able to post the same on The Cafe again... I knew not to go into the Vintage section.

Congratulations on your acquisition. I hope it takes you where you want to go.

[mandroid]

Id think if you are working not collecting. still the James TP has so much easier string loading.

Hinged cover stays attached..