Arched vs. flat top for Irish music?

[Thomaston]

I've been playing Irish sessions for about a decade now, multiple instruments, but lately mostly on my Fullerton Gloucester.
I've been thinking of switching to an oval hole, so I've been saving up and checking classifieds. The one thing I can't figure out is the tonal differences between oval holes like, say a Morris arched top compared to a Big Muddy or Redline Traveler.
Volume is a big consideration since I play with flutes, fiddles, a banjo, even pipes sometimes. A large part of me wonders if I've already got everything I could need in the Fullerton, though. Maybe I'd be happiest upgrading the bridge on that? I put a Red Henry-style on it a few years ago, but I think a Cumberland and maybe a bone nut would be better.
Anyone have some wisdom nuggets for me?

[mikeyes]

I think you will find that there are several points of view here -this is a common question on this forum - and that most will tell you that a) play every kind of mandolin and choose the one you like the best, b) all types of mandolins can have a lot of volume depending on the maker and the individual instrument (see a), and c) each type of design has a unique sound and (fill in the blanks) is the best one for ITM or that whatever you like is best (see a.)

Just for comparison, Gibson A series (A, AZ, A-1, A-2 but not A-4 which is a different animal) have a generally typical sound but vary considerably in volume and tone. I found a great one, but have played a number of bad sounding As too. Most of the quality instruments will play well and sound good but not all of them have the volume you might want. F hole instruments tend to project more, the same energy is directed in one place more than an oval hole of similar quality might, but (again) there is so much variability that you have to play each one first and even then it may not cut it in a big session.

Mandolins shine in smaller sessions especially if the members want tone over volume. Technique will bring out the volume but you may have to sacrifice some of the musical qualities of your playing. (That's what banjos are for, the sacrifice part, I mean.). Even so, my go-to instrument is my mandolin these days and I only play the banjo on certain tunes. I've learned to get enough volume using good technique and when it is my turn to play people in our session respect it and try to listen as they play.

Mike Keyes

[Thomaston]

Thanks, Mike. Unfortunately being able to play different types of mandolin isn't possible. All the stores around here carry nothing but cheap Pac-Rim stuff that's barely set up. I have to rely on sound clips, videos, and opinions.
If f-holes project more it seems like they should be more suited to Irish sessions than oval holes. Seems strange that it's actually opposite of this, and makes me wonder if it's as much aesthetics as anything.
I actually have a nice tenor banjo that I played for years before I got my Fullerton, but like you, I prefer mandolin. I also find group sound to be an important factor, so I tend to gravitate to mandolin rather than be a 2nd banjo.

[Mike Snyder]

My oval-hole has good volume. No regrets no issues at all. The ITM sessions I frequent are loud. The rooms are loud, the fiddles are loud. The concertina, tenor banjo, bass, all loud. The guitar player is one of those guys that has a dozen flat tops. Which one does he bring? The loudest one. OK, some of the slower stuff is played at reasonable volumes. Dance tempo stuff? Loud. So to hear myself and be heard, I bring an F5 that is............loud. Good tone, can do dynamics from a whisper to wood-splitting chop, but the kind of loud you get from a 12 year old Gibson played hard through those years and strung heavy. If the room is good acoustically, the session is smallish, or outside, or not a barroom, I take the A4. Both probably, because you can never have too many mandolins. If I don't have to carry it too far I'll take the tenor banjo. So it depends, I guess, on your situation, your needs. The volume escalation wars at sessions are regrettable at times, but the nature of things like that. Happens at bluegrass jams and techno raves, too.

[Dan Adams]

I took my 83' 2M pancake to Ireland. Plenty of volume in a room with a fiddle, concertina, piper, two guitars, and an octave mandolin. All respectful players that did try to drown out the other instruments. It's also great for busking in a busy area because of the volume. I'm always amazed because of it shallow body and small size?

[Dave Hanson]

Andy Irvine, Mick Moloney and Eddie Furey seem to do OK using carved top mandolins for Irish music.

Dave H

[Thomaston]

If I'm being honest with myself it's probably as much MAS as anything. :)
I may just post a WTB/Trade ad in the classifieds and see what turns up.

[Beanzy]

I think the f hole thing is because they project the sound better it tends to be quite directional. So the people out front and your stomach get a great sound. Unfortunately the players ears tend to be above the side of the mandolin, so you can end up where the least sound is reaching. Some people are going for sound ports in the sides to give the player a better listen too. I think it's better to have something that will let people off-centre lock in with you, so directional projection could be working against your best interests in a circular round the table grouping. With a really directional sound you'd possibly be poking the ears out of the player opposite, but giving nothing away to the ones next to you.

I'm undecided about flat tops or arch tops for ITM, aesthetically I prefer the curvy shapes of a carved top along the lines of the Gibson oval holes, but the flat tops look more folkey. I've heard that flat tops give a more omni-directional radiation too, but I can't remenber where that was, it could have been my spanish guitar playing friend. By the time you're playing in the middle of a trad scrum it's often just enough just to make sure you're adding the initial plucky attack to the fiddle notes to make them sound like they're in time. So radiation in the round would be a big consideration if I were buying specifically for sessions, but for the same group in a stage performance with mics I'd probably swap to my f hole carved top to get as much sound to the mic without having to risk feedback. Less to do with the actual tone so much as getting a mandolin sound into the overall mix.

[foldedpath]

I'm undecided about flat tops or arch tops for ITM, aesthetically I prefer the curvy shapes of a carved top along the lines of the Gibson oval holes, but the flat tops look more folkey. I've heard that flat tops give a more omni-directional radiation too, but I can't remenber where that was, it could have been my spanish guitar playing friend.

I don't know about omnidirectional radiation, but I believe the big difference is that a flat top instrument usually converts pick energy into a wider frequency range, with more harmonic content. You get tone descriptions like "sweet, warm, rich."

An archtop design usually puts more of the pick energy into the fundamental note pitch, with fewer harmonics and a more narrow frequency range overall. So you get descriptions like "punchy, "midrangy", "focused," and so on.

These are vast generalizations of course, and individual instruments will vary. To the extent there is any truth in this, it may mean that in a loud session an archtop mandolin's more focused sound (especially with F-holes) may have an advantage in perceived volume, because less energy is "wasted" in producing harmonics that will be drowned out anyway. Only the fundamental note pitch is important in unison melody playing. At least for a plucked instrument like mandolin where you only hear the initial note attack. Harmonic content is a big deal with sustaining instruments.

I'm not an acoustics expert and I haven't measured any of this. It's just my subjective impression, based on hearing different types of instruments in sessions and various acoustic jams.

It's interesting that a flat top is the preferred design for backing instruments like acoustic guitars and (generally speaking) bouzoukis. I don't think I've ever seen an acoustic archtop guitar used to back a session. I think that's because what's desired there is a percussive, clear and "zingy" sound that cuts through the mix of melody instruments, and makes up for the lower pitch being a little harder to hear.

[Namder]

I've been playing Irish sessions for about a decade now, multiple instruments, but lately mostly on my Fullerton Gloucester.
I've been thinking of switching to an oval hole, so I've been saving up and checking classifieds. The one thing I can't figure out is the tonal differences between oval holes like, say a Morris arched top compared to a Big Muddy or Redline Traveler.
Volume is a big consideration since I play with flutes, fiddles, a banjo, even pipes sometimes. A large part of me wonders if I've already got everything I could need in the Fullerton, though. Maybe I'd be happiest upgrading the bridge on that? I put a Red Henry-style on it a few years ago, but I think a Cumberland and maybe a bone nut would be better.
Anyone have some wisdom nuggets for me?

Is there any point in trying to make your mandolin louder. It still won't be heard above the other common instruments. Look on Youtube and you won't find many sessions with a mandolin. Now a mandolin banjo....

John

[JeffD]

The ff hole mandolin having more projection than the oval hole is a comparison of two arch top instruments. Not flat tops.

I have played some very loud flat tops, the pre-Gibson Flatiron pancake mandolins for example.

Projection is more than volume, it is also focus. FF hole (arch top) mandolins are so focused you can almost aim them.


My own tastes run to flatties for Irish. My reason is not volume or projection, it is that the arch top sound, oval or ff holes, is so Gibsonny that it is hard to not associate it with bluegrass, which in an Irish session context just sticks out too much IMO.

[foldedpath]

Is there any point in trying to make your mandolin louder. It still won't be heard above the other common instruments. Look on Youtube and you won't find many sessions with a mandolin. Now a mandolin banjo....

The point, for me anyway, is that the louder the mandolin, the easier it is for everyone to hear when you're the one starting a new set of tunes. Or when you're yelling "Hup!" and leading the change of tunes within a set.

Sure, there are... things... out there like mandolin banjos (shiver). Or resonators like the National RM-1. Or you can just go all the way to tenor banjo and be done with it. We all draw the line at different places. For me, I just like the woody tone of a wooden instrument too much to give it up, and I get enough volume from my F-style mandolin for the sessions I play in. If the session is too loud to hear THIS mandolin, then it's too loud to have much fun in anyway. I try to avoid sessions that are too big.


My own tastes run to flatties for Irish. My reason is not volume or projection, it is that the arch top sound, oval or ff holes, is so Gibsonny that it is hard to not associate it with bluegrass, which in an Irish session context just sticks out too much IMO.

I can understand that. It would seem to be a learned response though, since you're familiar with Bluegrass music. I doubt it would matter to someone steeped in Irish or Scottish trad who didn't listen to Bluegrass, and that's probably most of the pipers, whistlers, box players, concertina players, and flute players in a session. For most of the folks I've met in Irish sessions, a mandolin is a mandolin. Nobody is paying much attention to how it sounds, because they're only hearing the "ping" in the group mix anyway.

On the other hand, if it matters to you that an archtop sounds too much like a Bluegrass mandolin, then I can certainly appreciate wanting to play something else.
:)

[Thomaston]

I'd be down for using a National, but a mando-banjo might bring out the angry mob!
I think I've found a solution to my dilemma anyway. One of my good friends is a local luthier. He typically makes guitars and ukes but has agreed to build me an Army/Navy style mandolin. When he was getting started a few years he put together a Don Kawalek OM kit for me and it's been a fabulous instrument (I use it like a short-scale bouzouki tuned GDAD).
Here's his page. I might do a build thread once he gets started.
https://m.facebook.com/AuburnGuitars/#!/AuburnGuitars/

[JeffD]

I can understand that. It would seem to be a learned response though, since you're familiar with Bluegrass music. I doubt it would matter to someone steeped in Irish or Scottish trad who didn't listen to Bluegrass, and that's probably most of the pipers, whistlers, box players, concertina players, and flute players in a session.

There might be some truth to that. The first time I thought of it, however, was an experience I had in Ireland, where the expectation caused by the Gibson sound was distinctly not Irish. written about here. (https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/entry.php?782-Mandolin-in-Celtic-Music)

OTOH times are different, and arch top mandolins are everywhere .

[mikeyes]

Jeff,

That was not my experience and I have brought several Gibson mandolins to Ireland. Of course, they may have just been having fun at your expense or they may have really liked Jimmy Rogers, I know that American country music is big over there.
One thing I found at virtually every session I played in in Ireland was that they asked me to play "your music" by which they meant any American music (they did ask about bluegrass, which is my music) and tolerated one tune set that no one knew - I played Whiskey Before Breakfast, Soldier's Joy and then Wind That Shakes The Barley which they knew. With the advent of WeBanjo3 I think there is more interest in American music - they call anything fast or with a banjo Bluegrass - and I have heard Jerusalem Ridge as a standard session tune over there.


Mike Keyes

[fatt-dad]

I don't know anything about the Fullerton. I love my '20 Gibson A3 (no truss rod, paddle head) and I love my Flatiron 1N (very basic). I have others that I love too. I'm just saying with no comparison, these are fine instruments - quite loud enough for a big jam.

f-d

[Thomaston]

Here's a bit on the history of Fullertons, if you're interested to know more. They were very popular for a brief time here almost a decade ago.
https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?52311-Fullerton-Gloucester-What-Happened

[Shelagh Moore]

I'm in the happy position of having a flattop (actually induced arch) (Nava 2-point), a carved top (Taran Springwell) and a National RM-1 to choose from, all excellent mandolins. If I know it's going to be a very noisy session or one with loads of loud instruments I'll usually take the RM-1 which will cope with room to spare. If it's a quieter session I'll take either the Nava or Taran and both cope very well, and I tend to prefer to play those if circumstances permit. The tones are different, not better or worse but just different, and I'll tend to pick an instrument based on its dynamic and tonal characteristics depending on what I want to do. The Taran is still developing, since I've only had it a year, so probably I tend to choose that one more at the moment. I'll often take my mandola or OM too for a different voice altogether. I don't take the tenor banjo out often as there are generally one or two other TB players in the sessions I tend to frequent.

[mandroid]

I was touring Ireland then Scotland, on my bicycle, camping and hostelling...

for my sitting in at some small town sessions, 20 years ago,

I brought my Leo Pocket Mandolin... (padded gig bag stuffed in a dry bag)

If I were making room, now that I got a Mix A5, I'd take it, instead.

(then be more concerned with theft, of course)




...

[Thomaston]

I was lucky enough to try this Mid-Mo out yesterday while on vacation.
http://www.mountainmusicsite.com/products/Mid-Missouri-M4W-98.html?cPath=400_401
It definitely sold me on the merits of oval holes vs f holes. Fantastic tone! It sounded world's better than the $4000 Gibson next to it. I wish I could have just bought it.

[Jim Garber]

Marla Fibish (https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/entry.php?1083-Mandolin-Mondays-67-w-Special-Guest-Marla-Fibish) sounds pretty good playing ITM on her Gibson.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OMgoT6lCkE

[David L]

Andy Irvine, Mick Moloney and Eddie Furey, along with Marla Fibish are listed as Irish players of arch-tops. But, they are playing alone or with a band (with a mic). That is a completely different situation than playing in a session, especially a large, loud one.

A mandolin-banjo is definitely my choice for my local weekly session. The tone and (lack of) sustain are good for this type of music and it's LOUDER than my mandolin.

[Thomaston]

I wouldn't be opposed to a mando-banjo, but based on past conversations I don't think my particular session would be very embracing of it.
Having said that, I might still get one someday. I've played 4 and 5-string banjos long enough to have picked up some set up methods. I think I could take say a Gold Tone MB-850 and optimize it so it blends well without overpowering.

[Jill McAuley]

Marla regularly hosts the Sunday evening session at the Plough and the Stars here in San Francisco, playing her Gibson A.

[mandroid]

A melody banjo is essentially a 4 string mandolin banjo, you would be doubling the Irish Tuned Tenor banjo an octave up.

the National RM-1, metal resonator mandolins get good revues when trying to keep up in loud sessions.


;)

[Thomaston]

Melody banjos seem pretty hard to find. I've seen 2 for sale over the years, but that's it.

[liestman]

I have a Yosco mandolin banjo that was made into a melody banjo (the luthier closed 4 tuner holes and refinished, put on banjo tuners, new 4 string nut and tailpiece, etc) and it fits in quite nicely. It is not as clangy and jarring as a mandolin banjo with 8 strings. That being said, if I need that volume I just take a tenor banjo, so the Yosco stays home.

[JeffD]

I really love the sound of a tenor banjo in traditional Irish. In the hands of a great player it can be breath taking. Not so much yet in my hands however.

[mandroid]

Melody banjos seem pretty hard to find. I've seen 2 for sale over the years, but that's it.

I got 8 string Mand-jos and had a 4 string nut made, then put a tenor banjo bridge on it.

[derbex]

Wouldn't a restrung ukelel banjo work?

[liestman]

To me, the use of a ukulele banjo or mando banjo as a mini-tenor banjo all depends on the tone of the instrument. Most of these things have, um, well, they are loud anyway! :-) Finding one with a good tone can be a challenge.

[Paul Busman]

I've been playing Irish sessions for about a decade now, multiple instruments, but lately mostly on my Fullerton Gloucester.
IA large part of me wonders if I've already got everything I could need in the Fullerton, though. Maybe I'd be happiest upgrading the bridge on that? I put a Red Henry-style on it a few years ago, but I think a Cumberland and maybe a bone nut would be better.
Anyone have some wisdom nuggets for me?

I'm lucky enough to have a Fullerton Gloucester and as far as I'm concerned it's all the mandolin I need. It's had a couple of modifications, mostly cosmetic except for a bone nut, Red Henry bridge and arching of the fingerboard, and it plays like a dream.
A few years ago I got to play the wall of mandolins at Elderly and didn't find any, old or new, that were superior enough that I'd even consider spending the money to upgrade.
If you do change the Red Henry bridge to a CA or other, let me know how it works out.

[Randi Gormley]

fwiw, I've played an ff-hole, a flattop and an oval arch top in session and all three were loud, just different. Most of the people in the session just noted that I was playing mandolin; however, the other mandolin players pretty much ignored my ff-hole instrument (a strad-o-lin), found my flat-top kind of cool (a bandolim which has a different kind of ringy-sound to it) but lust after my Gibson snakehead. So there's that. I think only the other mandolin players would notice if you changed instruments or changed your current instrument with a new bridge or whatnot. my 2 cents. so just play what you like.