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View Full Version : Why can't laminate wood be good?



hungry mountain boy
Jun-09-2005, 1:58am
I'm just curious to know of any individual experiences with laminate woods that were very favorable and also even more interested to know if there is anyone that has some history of the industry that suggests laminate is or could be very very good but that people are prejudiced against it, kinda like every body wants an F for traditional reasons? I wonder this because, laminate wood does have some wood in it doesn't it and also once someone suggested that the good thing about laminate is that it was lighter weight? Just very very curious. Also recently played a cheap fender mandolin with laminate back and sides, I think, that I thougth had a nice "warm" tone. glenn Hurley

MandoJon
Jun-09-2005, 3:51am
I'm not a luthier and will bow to their superior knowledge but the argument against laminate wood is (crudely) this:

When you laminate wood the grain is crossed and there are multiple layers (we all knew that). What this means is that it doesn't resonate so well. You can do a little experiement at home. Get a bit of plywood and a bit of unlaminated wood. Make two "rulers" and ping them on the edge of a table like you probably did as a kid with your school ruler to make that boinging sound teachers love so much (do you know what I mean - hold one end down hard on the surface and have most of the rest sticking out into mid-air - then ping it). Then see which "ruler" vibrates loudest and longest. QED

Also, laminated wood tends (I do stress 'tends') to use cheaper timber even if it's the same type of wood. You don't waste the best quality timber but chopping it up and gluing it back together.

It's not prejudice but is a real difference.

Having said all this, that's not to say that a well-made instrument that uses laminated wood cannot sound good and even better than a less-well made instrument using unlaminated wood (especially is the comparison is between the best quality laminate and poor quality timber). But the best made timber instrument will almost always sound better than the best made laminted instrument.

That's a crude description of the differences and I pass the batton over to the hundreds of luthiers on this site who can give you a much better answer.

Bruce Evans
Jun-09-2005, 6:45am
As MandoJon said, "I'm not a luthier and will bow to their superior knowledge but..."

Laminated wood is used for some higher grade instruments, but it is called HPL, which stands for High Pressure Laminate. I think part of the prejudice against laminates is exactly that. Prejudice. I remember some cheap guitars from the 60s which were made of actual plywood, perhaps almost lumber grade. Even then they were delaminating and by now probably all of them have fallen apart.

Look through Martin's catalog. They have a lot of HPL models.

lindensensei
Jun-09-2005, 6:57am
The thing about laminate, is that it will not be as loud as solid woods which can sustain and project better. #That being said, I play through a microphone on stage and in the house my wife is always telling me to quiet down. #The volume thing with mandolins is way over-rated. #Way, way, over-rated. #Much more important is the quality of tone and a very good plywood mando can still have a very nice tone. #Of course, a real mandolin player would never play something that cheap and low rent...

hungry mountain boy
Jun-09-2005, 7:30am
Thanks for the replies. One other question I had in mind was sort of answered. I wondered, if pursued could the laminate be developed to a really good tone and then if it could that would be possibble maybe to be consistent in replicating it and having that good tone. The HPL (high pressure laminate)info sort of eludes to a laminate being improved up on. Its interesting I wish I understood all the variables that the builders and scientist do. Thanks. Glenn

groveland
Jun-09-2005, 7:51am
Another angle on this - Some hollowbody and semi-hollowbody electric guitars are by design constructed with laminates to avoid unwanted resonance and subsequent feedback when amplified while retaining a hollowbody sound, like the ES335.

FlawLaw
Jun-09-2005, 7:56am
Also, in bluegrass, there is a prejudice among bass players against fully carved basses. Though a few bluegrass bass players use solid wood basses, the majority prefer laminated basses. I guess it is because the laminated basses have the right "thump." When I bring my carved bass to bluegrass events, people think it is odd.

J. Mark Lane
Jun-09-2005, 8:36am
I believe "HPL" refers to a product that is not wood at all. At least on Martin guitars I believe that is the case. It is, essentially, formica. FWIW, I owned an HPL Martin guitar, and it really wasn't that bad for what it was.

It is my opinion that the process of laminating woods is not, inherently, inconsistent with obtaining good tone from an instrument. I would think it would depend on the types of woods used, the types of adhesives used, and the methods of lamination. I would think it could be possible to laminate woods in a way that could produce superior tonal qualities.

Consider for example the Rainsong line of guitars. The ones I have played sounded exceptional. These are not made of wood at all, but of a graphite material. They are really cool, imo, and certainly (a) avoid further depletion of tonewoods, and (b) do not require the temp/humidity attention of a fine wood instrument. If these things can be made to sound as good as they do, certainly a laminated wood instrument can, as well.

On a personal anecdotal level, I can relate the following. I have a 1984 Martin Shenandoah D35. The b/s are some kind of laminate (I forget what the wood is called). The guitar was a gift (in 1984) from someone I love dearly. It suffered years of terrible abuse (including being strapped to the back of my motorcycle for cross-country trips, and living in a barn in New England heated with a coal stove <g>). It essentially disintegrated.

Not wanting to see it die, I sent it to Canadian luthier Kevin Hall, of Timberline Guitars (Kevin used to manage Martin's service for Canada and is a tremendous human being). Kevin's comment was, "Well, I think I'll use this to explore the real limits of a plywood box."

A year later, it came back. The guitar is incredible. I challenge any of you to come here and play it or listen to it, and distinguish it from a solid b/s guitar. As Kevin commented, "It's mostly in the top anyway." (He retopped it, with a new bracing pattern etc.)

I think it is important to recognize that there could be serious potential for the use of laminated materials, because there is a degree of environmental responsibility that the industry will have to face eventually. (Really, the industry has already faced it; witness the move from Brazilian in the guitar industry. Adirondack spruce is also harder to get.) Maybe one of our fine builders could tackle the job of making a really good mandolin from laminates.... Just a thought.

Mark

Pedal Steel Mike
Jun-09-2005, 8:46am
I own 2 pedal steels, one of which is made from dieboard (which is a very high grade lamanate) and covered with formica, and the other is solid maple has a lacquer finish. The are of the same brand and aside from the materials from whisch they are made, almost identical.

They sound really different from each other.

I really think the Maple one sounds better. It's richer and fuller and warmer. The other one isn't bad, and in fact it's original owner played in the road band of a new deceased singer named Rust Draper, and the instrument has entertained people in over 40 lower states. But the Maple one has a quality that the laminated one does not.

If you heard both, side by side, you would easily hear the difference.

arbarnhart
Jun-09-2005, 8:57am
I watched a DIY on demand presentation on building mandos (I forget the luthier's name exactly because it was hard to pronounce; Dubensomething, I think). Early on he held up a solid piece of red spruce from the same location that Lloyd specified as his source and thumped it. It rang like a bell. That piercing ringing tone you want in an F5 to cut through the other instruments would be hard to get with laminate, IMO. I actually prefer the warm rich tone of an oval A. I am buying one with a solid top, but I am really not sure that is necessary. The f hole A I am using now is a super cheapy and has a laminate top. It is plenty loud and it has a reasonably good tone, but is missing that piercing edge. I am upgrading more because of difficulty in setting it up properly to have decent action without buzz and I have been warned against using anything but light strings. Plus I want the "blusier" warm tone. In moving up in quality, even a little, solid tops pretty much become standard.

Note - laminate and plywood are not necessarily the same thing. Generally speaking, plywood orients the grain at right angles on the different layers for strength. When laminating for instruments, you should orient the grain in the same direction in all layers. Plywood sometimes has voids within, but laminate for instruments should not.

TommyK
Jun-09-2005, 9:31am
From solid woods and laminates to brass, tin and formica, instruments are made of a multitude of materials for tonal reasons and cost. #The current prejudice is that solid wood is best. #I sort of agree with that. #The real answer to "what material is best?" #is between your ears. Certainly there are solid wood guitars that sound phenominal, but I can't afford them. #I have played many plywood instruments that have great tone. #There are some solid guitars I wouldn't give you a plug nickle for. #If the instrument you find is made out of composite or an old coffee can, then play to your heart's content, because that is the tone you like.
There is a great article about tone woods, so called 'Adirondak Spruce' in particular in the latest edition of Acoustic Guitar magazine. #Buy a copy or peruse one at the library. #It's a good read. Adirondak spruce, to my surprise, is not a species, but a marketing name.

Bob A
Jun-09-2005, 10:03am
The Selmer Maccaferri guitars, like the one Django played, all had laminate back and sides. Copies made today are similarly constructed. David Hodson, who makes them (among others) also uses the laminate for his "djangolin" mandolins.

Lots of folks find the sound of these instruments acceptable.

otterly2k
Jun-09-2005, 10:29am
Another feature of laminate is that it is really stable... this is both good and bad. Yeah, that HDL is virtually indestructable, doesn't scratch, won't be hurt by a water balloon, etc. Neither will it "open up", mature, deepen with age as the grain loosens and the vibrations from playing have long term effect on the wood itself.

When I was looking for a parlour guitar, I bought Martin's little mini guitar made from HDL...thinking it would be great for camping, I could give it to my nephews eventually, etc. And it sounded pretty good, and played nicely. But there was, to my ear, something missing... a depth of tone, some subtleties...maybe harmonics. I don't know. In the end I changed my mind and bought a L'arrivee parlour guitar, and I'm happier with that.

I'll admit, I was surprised at how good the HDL sounded. But ultimately, there was still something missing to my ear.
DK how this would play out in mando construction.
KE

jmkatcher
Jun-09-2005, 10:46am
As another data point, my wife has a 70s (I think) Takamine F360S D28 copy in rosewood laminate and it's an amazingly good guitar. It's loud and rich sounding and also feather-light, which might compensate for the laminateness. I certainly haven't played a laminate mandolin that was as comparably good as this guitar, though.

mad dawg
Jun-09-2005, 10:54am
The Selmer Maccaferri guitars, like the one Django played, all had laminate back and sides. Copies made today are similarly constructed. David Hodson, who makes them (among others) also uses the laminate for his "djangolin" mandolins.

Lots of folks find the sound of these instruments acceptable.
I thought I read that once too; is it safe to assume he uses a higher grade of laminate? Any ideas on comparisons between material costs of solid wood and "higher grade" laminates?

generankin
Jun-09-2005, 10:56am
[snip]

On a personal anecdotal level, I can relate the following. #I have a 1984 Martin Shenandoah D35. #The b/s are some kind of laminate (I forget what the wood is called). #
[snip]
Not wanting to see it die, I sent it to Canadian luthier Kevin Hall, of Timberline Guitars (Kevin used to manage Martin's service for Canada and is a tremendous human being). #Kevin's comment was, "Well, I think I'll use this to explore the real limits of a plywood box."

A year later, it came back. #The guitar is incredible. #I challenge any of you to come here and play it or listen to it, and distinguish it from a solid b/s guitar. #As Kevin commented, "It's mostly in the top anyway." #(He retopped it, with a new bracing pattern etc.)
[snip]
A story I heard about 30 years ago is on point: #Ramirez, said by some to be the father of the modern guitar, had a notion that it was the top that counted, so he put the finest top he dould on a papier maché back & sides. #It was, according to the story, wonderful.

I have a Baby Taylor I bought for my daughter. #It has ply back & sides and an odd bracing pattern for a solid top. #It is not a wonderful instrument, but it beats the 'backpacker' thingies all hollow, has OK tone and decent action, so it is a nice learner guitar.

Gene Rankin

mmukav
Jun-09-2005, 10:57am
It is interesting that laminates are perferred for bluegrass basses. I believe there are a couple reasons. One is the sound. Thumpy, not much sustain, which is what the bluegrasser usually wants in a bass. Secondly, they're rugged, and don't react to humidity changes like carved basses do. They're also much less expensive. Who wants to drag around a $10,000 carved bass to a festival for the weekend?

As far as laminates for mandolin, maybe the sound chamber is just too small. You can't really get the laminated portions, be it back, sides, or top, to move very much.

Solid, carved wood is much more responsive. The upright bass is so large, has so much mass and such a large sound chamber, that the top can still move even though it's laminated. Remember also, there's a sound post to transmit sound, and that may help a lot.

J. Mark Lane
Jun-09-2005, 11:07am
Adirondak spruce, to my surprise, is not a species, but a marketing name.
I'm not so sure about that. The more common name for the wood is "red spruce," and whether it is a different "species" or merely a variety of spruce I couldn't say (not being a botanist or anything). But I can tell you it looks different, is harvested in different locations, and definitely sounds different.

I think a couple of my comments might have been misunderstood. I was not (am not) saying that current examples of laminate instruments demonstrate my point. What I was suggesting is that I think it may be possible to make an instrument from some form of laminate that could rival the tone of a solid wood instrument. I don't think, as a theoretical matter, laminates are necessarily inferior to solid woods; I don't know if there is currently made any laminate that would demonstrate that.

I also suspect the above might apply, at least initially, only to the back and sides. Although it should be theoretically possible to make a fine top from laminate, too.

Tone is indeed subjective. Or at least whether you like it or not is. But I was thinking of a sort of "current benchmark" of good tone. Much like I compared my modified Shenandoah to "new" "real" D35...and it compared quite well. Some people may "like" the sound of a Martin D1. I think they sound like...a word I can't use here <g>.

Interesting topic. I wonder why the builders aren't weighing in more. Not reading this subject area, I gues..

arbarnhart
Jun-09-2005, 11:08am
As another data point, my wife has a 70s (I think) Takamine F360S D28 copy in rosewood laminate and it's an amazingly good guitar. #It's loud and rich sounding and also feather-light, which might compensate for the laminateness. #I certainly haven't played a laminate mandolin that was as comparably good as this guitar, though.
I have a 77 Takamine of that series (I forget if it is the same model or not). It is quite loud and has a very good tone. A neighbor that I jam with some tends to "forget" to bring over one of his guitars and uses it. I was never that good at guitar and played few others, so I couldn't give you a really valid review personally, but I have been advised by a few people to never sell it because the cost of a guitar that plays and sounds like it would be significantly more than it would sell for.

When I first posted, I didn't realize that the discussion was backs and sides only. I have had a builder I have great respect for tell me that the top is vastly more important and that the back and sides are more about what not to do (dampen or have an oddball echo). Did you read the Rigel interview and look at their sides? They might be solid wood, but they are not bent and quite thick. I would wager that would affect the sound more than a laminate but that either would be negligible given a good top, proper joinery and reasonable interior shape.

Jim Rowland
Jun-09-2005, 11:37am
Bob Benedetto made a number of laminated body guitars. Most of the are electric,but a few,including the one played by John Pizzarelli,are acoustic.
Jim

mingusb1
Jun-09-2005, 12:06pm
Regarding ply versus solid basses, the price differences are not so vast across the board. #I am having a ply bass built for me now that is costing (a bit) more than a number of entry solid (at least top) basses are going for.

My reason is as previously stated in this thread--durability. #I don't want to worry so much about top/back cracks in the bass while hauling it to jams, festivals, etc.

Regarding tone, I understand that a punchy bass is preferred in bluegrass on OT country, but I am not convinced you can't get that from a solid bass. #I think it has a lot to do with technique. #But for most players, a ply bass is probably just easier to get that sought-after note sound/decay.

The real intersting question to me is this:

can ply be "broken-in"? #

I swear I broke my ply bass in after 5 or 6 years and lots of gigs where I was hitting it with all I had!

Z

PaulD
Jun-09-2005, 12:36pm
Wow... lots of information, speculation, etc. I don't claim to be an expert on guitars or luthiery or wood... or much of anything really... but I have opinions on a lot of things. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I do know I had a cheap Orlando plywood guitar that elicited comments from Martin owners about how much better it sounded than their Martins. Plywood top, back, and sides... made in Japan... neck like a baseball bat... probably an anomaly from their production line as far as tone goes. Not a great guitar, but it sounds good. My sister has it in Ketchikan now.

I think there's some truth to the fact that "laminates" get a bad rap in instruments because they're typically used as a way to use cheap woods with traditional veneers and get consistency out of a production line. I think there is also something to be said about how the material is laminated and what the substrates are (90 degree vs. parallel grain orientation, substandard wood vs. same quality). Still, even if you built a formed archtop mando with Red Spruce veneers oriented the way they came out of the tree it would sound different than a carved top of the same wood. It may sound great, but it would sound different.

HPL is Martin's plastic laminate. As others have stated, it sounds really good for plastic, and you can throw water balloons at it (I liked that, Otterly) or use it as a spare boat paddle. But it's not plywood or laminated wood.

Adirondack Spruce is a common name that can refer to several different spruces. According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture it can be used to refer to Red Spruce (http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/TechSheets/SoftwoodNA/pdf_files/picearubmet.pdf) (Picea Rubens) and that is what is most common in mando discussions. It can also refer to White Spruce (http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/TechSheets/SoftwoodNA/pdf_files/piceaglaucamet.pdf) (Picea Glauca). As with most species, if you want to discuss them specifically it is best to use the scientfic taxonomic name, but there are other woods (and animals) for which this is also true. Look at Cedars (mostly not taxonomically Cedar) or Mahoganies and Rosewoods. Still, it is not a marketing name... it's just not precise.

Michael H Geimer
Jun-09-2005, 1:25pm
" Although it should be theoretically possible to make a fine top from laminate, too. "

I don't see how one could make a carved top from lamiante wood.

I have an old 50's Kay archtop guitar that I refer to as The Plywood Wonder ... but it aint' all *that* wonderfull. The top is heat-bent rather than carved. If I hit it real hard, I growls like Rawlings' junker Epiphone. (It's not the guitar)

Now, the solid wood vintage Martin archtop I got to play recently truly was a wonder!

Re: Volume ... If you only play completely acoustic (going commando), then volume is not at all an overrated quality. It is a neccessity.

- Benig

arbarnhart
Jun-09-2005, 2:27pm
RE: Volume...

I probably didn't make the case strongly enough for my Takamine guitar (solid top, laminate back/sides). I don't know of a louder acoustic guitar. Others with more experience who have played it say the same thing.

My cheap lam top mando (being replaced when my new one ships) plays quite loud. Tone is an issue, but not volume.

J. Mark Lane
Jun-09-2005, 2:33pm
I'm not sure that you couldn't make a "carved top" from some form of laminate. Maybe you could. But I was sort of envisioning something more like a cold-molding process (a boat-building term).

Of course, I don't know what I'm talking about. But then, neither do the rest of you. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

otterly2k
Jun-09-2005, 2:42pm
It seems to me that if a decent small guitar can be made out of HDL, a decent flattop mando could be made easily enough. I don't know about a carved top shape, since I don't know how the HDL is made, but I would guess it could be moldable by some process.

And the Martin HDL guitars... some of them... are made with HDL tops too, if I'm not mistaken...they have some models with elaborate scenes on 'em, and the little mini that I had briefly had an HDL top with a veneer made to look like spruce wood grain.

We need to get the luthiers working on this...it could be great to have something like that for extreme weather, camping, festivals or to give to young kids as starters. And you could do some seriously custom decorating....
KE

mpeknox
Jun-09-2005, 2:42pm
I watched a DIY on demand presentation on building mandos (I forget the luthier's name exactly because it was hard to pronounce; Dubensomething, I think).
If anyone has a Dubensomething they no longer play just lying around, I'll take it off your hands http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Spruce
Jun-09-2005, 2:49pm
"Adirondack Spruce is a common name that can refer to several different spruces. #It can also refer to White Spruce (Picea Glauca)"

Adirondack should refer to Red, and not White when we're talking instrument wood...

Or at least that's my humble opinion...

White is more Engelmann-esque in it's qualities, although the logs do tend to get mixed up a bit in the log-yards on the East Coast...

White gets mixed up with Engelmann on the Left Coast...
They are almost indistinguishable from one another in log form...

acousticphd
Jun-09-2005, 2:53pm
In my experience:
A laminated wood instrument sounds much better when you're trying to sell it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

(BTW, my guess is that the builders are looking at this thread and rolling their eyes. But that shouldn't stop us from opining away)

TommyK
Jun-09-2005, 3:14pm
Adirondack should refer to Red, and not White when we're talking instrument wood...
Like my daddy always says, "Should be and is, is never the same."

PaulD
Jun-09-2005, 3:20pm
Adirondack should refer to Red, and not White when we're talking instrument wood...

Or at least that's my humble opinion...
Bruce; I agree, but the USDA/Forest Service lists Adirondack Spruce as a common name for White Spruce and Red Spruce. That was my point... it's not a marketing term, but when you use a common name like that there's more room for confusion. I see the same thing with herpetology: is a Horned Lizard (or Horny Toad) a Phrynosoma Hernandezi (Intermountain region), P. Cornutum (Texas), P. Douglasi (Northwest), or any one of about a dozen other species?

WRT carved tops: You can certainly carve plywood... and you get an interesting banded pattern following the contours. I don't know why one would build an instrument top that way, though. More likely is what J. Mark referred to as "Cold Molding" techniques used in boat building: thin veneers are able to comply to a form and you can glue multiple plies together to build up the thickness. There's no reason you couldn't do this and still graduate the top from the inside.

mandroid
Jun-09-2005, 3:28pm
My previous gibby,an A 40, used an arched back, I would think the ply/veneer layers got laid up and clamped together to set, in to that shape.
never had a seam separation http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

mad dawg
Jun-09-2005, 3:29pm
In my experience:
A laminated wood instrument sounds much better when you're trying to sell it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
LOL! #I've often seen them described in classifieds and on eBay as sounding exceptionally "sweet".

Pedal Steel Mike
Jun-09-2005, 5:16pm
Here is an interesting link on this subject.

http://www.gould68.freeserve.co.uk/JimHall3a.html

(An aside here, Jim Hall is my absolute all time favorite jazz guitarist, and this opinion is shared by a lot of others. If you haven't heard him you have a real treat in store. I recommend his CD called "Conceirto" which features an exquisite jazz interpretation of Rodrigo's "Conceirto De Aranjuez.")

BTW, somebody mentioned the Rainsong carbon fiber guitars. I don't own one, but I've tried them and they really do sing, although they sound different than wood guitars.

I think a carbon fiber mandolin might be a very good instrument.

There is a carbon fiber pedal steel on the market. Some people love them and others can't stand them. I tried one out and liked it, but not enough to buy one.