Confessions of a brand snob

[F-2 Dave]

I didn't intend to become a brand snob. I got my first Gibson in 1979, acquired a few more through the years. Also, I've collected a small pile of vintage Fender stuff, as well as a Collings mandolin.

I knew the pac-rim stuff was out there and read about other's experiences with it, good and bad. It never really occurred to me to try out the Asian imports for myself.

That all changed when my wife surprised me with a Eastman 415 GT (gold top). I've been having a blast with it. It's easy to play, sounds great, and interesting to look at.

While at a friend's music store last Saturday, I ran across a new Recording King parlor size twelve fret guitar. It was great fun to play, and sounded good. I Thought it would be great for my youngest son who's been wanting to learn guitar.

So in the last three weeks I've went from owning zero Asian imports to owning two. They sound great and are fun to play for a total investment of less than 1K. Not bad.

F-2 Dave
Brand Snob (reformed)

[allenhopkins]

I have instruments made on five continents (well, actually the guitarron was made in Honduras, and I guess that's still North America, so really, four continents). Probably more Gibsons and Martins than any other brands, but Eastman is right up there as well.

The quality and unique characteristics of each of them, have very little to do with "country of origin" or, really, brand label. Some companies do produce consistent superior-quality instruments, others (e.g. Regal) produced a broad spectrum of instruments, varying in quality from excellent to passable. When I go out to perform for seniors, I usually carry three instruments: a Martin guitar, a Regal taropatch (double-strung ukulele), and a long-neck banjo with a Regal pot and a homemade neck.

Brand ID can be a shorthand way of sorting out instrument-related information; we can generally assume that a Gibson mandolin is better than a Rogue, a Martin guitar better than a Yamaha. Beyond that, it's every instrument for itself, import vs. US-made, with the criteria being design, manufacturing quality, sound, price, and personal appeal.

Ya know, I really should try to find an Australian-made instrument...

[almeriastrings]

I was going to say pretty much what Allen just said. For those of us who were there, it is also very much the case that the more recent "better quality" yet lower priced medium-range brands can be truly excellent these days compared to what was around previously. You look at them, play them, and are left wondering "how do they do it for that price"?

[dhergert]

For me it helps to categorize the instruments I have and the reasons I have them. Coming from the banjo world, I've always been a Gibson enthusiast and have a nice moderate-value collection of player-instruments from various vintages. So when I got my F9 I already felt right at home with the brand.

So for me, that is part of the reason I like Gibson -- familiarity and comfort.

That said, just recently I purchased an Asian Rim F5-style solid spruce/maple mandolin which was on a blow-out sale, for $199. After a decent setup, it plays as well and sounds nearly as good as my F9. In my personal opinion it also looks very nice.

This experience, and similar experiences in the banjo world, show me that while the name and the price do mean something warm and fuzzy to me related to familiarity and comfort, they aren't the whole story at all. The other part of the story is that it doesn't take thousands of dollars and a particular name on the peghead to produce the tone, quality and play-ability that I prefer and am used to with the instruments I select and play.

[foldedpath]

It's certainly true that the lower costs instruments are better than they've ever been. But high end luthiery also tends to wipe out geographic distinctions. Would anyone here turn down a free Gilchrist mandolin because it isn't a Gibson or made in the USA? What about a nice Sobell cittern from the UK?

Right now I play four main instruments -- a Santa Cruz guitar made in the USA, a Lebeda mandolin made in the Czech Republic, a Weber octave mandolin made in the USA, and a Windward Irish flute made in Nova Scotia, Canada.

My S.O. plays a very nice fiddle custom made for her by a respected luthier who lives 10 minutes from our house. I just bought her a nice handmade Syn D and C whistle set made in Australia. She also has a Yamaha grand piano made in Japan.

At any level of quality from "beginner" to "affordable" to "high end," there are fine instruments being made all over the world. It's up to us to find them.

[Ivan Kelsall]

All instruments,like most other things should be judged on ''how well they perform''. We all know that Italy is famous for Pizza / Pasta & Gelatto - but they also produce many top ranking cars / motor cycles. Geographic 'pigeon holeing' is a tad nonsensical these days.
I've mentioned several times on here that the Asian heritage in producing astounding craftsmanhip is a very,very,long one. So,it's no surprise to me that given the materials & equipment to work with,the Chinese / Thais / Korean workmen can produce superb instruments. The low cost 'to us' simply reflects the ''relatively'' low pay that some of these folk are on. Remember the time shortly after WWII when japan was re-building it's manufacturing industries,all the dreadful 'stuff' that they produced. Over time,they quit doing that & began 'innovating',improving on many of the things that they'd previously 'copied' - feindishly clever these Orientals !,:grin:
Ivan;)

[Tom C]

I recently played a newer Gretch A style. Sounded much, much, better than I anticipated. Now I'm thinking of getting the F4 that goes for about $400+. Seems like a good risk after playing the A.

[farmerjones]

Yes, my collection is about half and half, domestic to imported.
The weirdest thing is to get my brain wrapped around a piano that is world-class in every way, branded the same as a motorcycle?!?!? Yes, I know it's a culture thing, and also know they don't make them in the same plant. Well, I guess I do have an old Gibson washing machine, out in the shed. :)

Thought 2:
As I get into one sport/hobby or another, I notice once one jumps down the rabbit hole, it's less about the "kit" and more about the operator. The key is to be satisfied. I try to spend the time before the money. But the older I get, the more valuable time gets. I don't have the answer. But I am grateful to be able to enjoy sports & hobbies.

[UsuallyPickin]

Mostly domestic here . Adding that , as paraphrased from above, excellent quality instruments can be built anywhere and it is up to us, as players , to find and enjoy them. R/

[Br1ck]

It all started with guitars. Had to be US. The usual suspects. Then I wanted some specialized guitars, the first being a parlor. Knowing it would get a small slice of playing time, I took a chance on a Pono 0 size. Blown away at the price/performance ratio. Bought one of their Ukuleles, then a 12 string. Recently had an Eastman 505 to test the waters. Sold that for my Silverangel, but then bought the Michael Kelly 199.00 mando, n which has been an eye opener.

I grew up at a time when imports were crap, but times have changed. The crap is still out there, but so is fairly priced solid wood instruments. Do I still prefer the legacy builders? Yes, but I don't diss imports unless I've played them. The KM 150s have impressed me lately. Of course, so has Northfield, with its feet in both camps.

[Rob Meldrum]

Lots of people are brand snobs, it just depends on the article in question. I'm in a casual band of mostly 50-somethings with decent disposable income. Right now Taylor guitars seem to be all the rage. One member just brought in her latest Taylor and I played it for one song. Action was too low (for me), it buzzed on every chord I played. The tonal balance was way off, very boomy in the bass and lower-mid registers, but with no depth. But it was very pretty.

I have a Martin D-35 150th anniversary edition and playing it would make anyone a Martin brand snob. I also have a few Rogue dreadnoughts that cost me well under $100 each (guitar plus infamous Rogue mandolin for $99.00 including shipping). Those Rogue guitars sound nice and solid, I prefer their tone to my roughly $600 Ibanez exotic wood guitar. But everyone loves the look of the spalted mango Ibanez.

Play as many instruments as you can get your hands on and buy the one that sounds the best to you. But a great player on an inexpensive instrument will always sound better than a mediocre player on a great instrument.

[MikeZito]

Like Dave - Earlier this week, I too just picked up an Eastman 415 Gold Top. The tone is a little 'tubby', but overall a good looking, easy playing very serviceable mandolin.

Somewhat like Rob - just yesterday I purchased a used Rogue RM100-F mandolin. With a light-weight hardshell case, I paid $65.00 for it. MUCH to my surprise, it was a very nicely built mandolin, considering the price tag. The neck on it is a little funky, but that is okay because I am planning on using it as a four-string, and it should be perfect.

Viva the cheap mandolins!

[PiginaPen]

Like Dave - Earlier this week, I too just picked up an Eastman 415 Gold Top. The tone is a little 'tubby', but overall a good looking, easy playing very serviceable mandolin.

Somewhat like Rob - just yesterday I purchased a used Rogue RM100-F mandolin. With a light-weight hardshell case, I paid $65.00 for it. MUCH to my surprise, it was a very nicely built mandolin, considering the price tag. The neck on it is a little funky, but that is okay because I am planning on using it as a four-string, and it should be perfect.

Viva the cheap mandolins!

You stole that! I have 2 of those that I paid over $500 each for. They were made by Saga who makes Kentucky's.

[fscotte]

I've said this before, it is not that difficult to build a mando. If the finish isn't overly thick, and the woods are relatively stiff for their weight, and a little patience with setup, not cutting corners, most anyone can make a decent sounding mando. The biggest difference between "cheap" mandos and "handmade" is name brand, and finish work. A great mando can be found anywhere.

[Capt. E]

At present I own only two mandolins, a 1919-20 Gibson A-2 and a 2008 Weber Bighorn (f holes). I have purchased, enjoyed and later sold at least a couple of dozen others, from Weymann, to L & H, to Martin, more Gibsons, Flatiron, Big Muddy, etc. I've owned only one pac-rim mandolin; a "Shiro" A model which was my first "good" mandolin which cost only $150. I have "tried out" quite a few Kentucky, Eastman, The Loar, etc and liked many of them, especially the Kentucky line. They are among the best values out there. MAS has died down considerably and I feel I'll be happy with the two I currently own for the indefinite future.

[Charlie Bernstein]

I used to go to meetings at the United Auto Workers office in Farmington, Connecticut. I had to park down the road because my Japanese car (A Toyota? A Datsun? I don't remember.) wasn't allowed in the parking lot.

If you're thinking about all the ways their no-park zone didn't make sense, I agree with you. The dollars I paid someone for a used import went 100% into the seller's US pocket, while the shiny new and supposedly American cars in the parking lot had so many foreign parts that each one was a rolling United Nations.

But I got the point. Cars that were at least assembled in the US created or maintained some jobs. Imports didn't. And while workers in the US, Canada, and western Europe tend to be paid and treated well and live in healthy communities, that's not necessarily true of, say, Mexican maquiladoras or Pacific rim sweat shops.

Not every Indonesian or Chinese or South Korean factory is a bad place to work. But they can be lethal places to talk union, and environmental standards can be little more than toxic jokes. And I can't sort out the good from the bad from the ugly.

More about my Japanese car: Japanese work culture is different than ours, and it's certainly meticulous and productive. But the car was the product of a top-down, almost feudal corporatism that simply rubs my American cowboy-ism the wrong way.

So though I know that in the vast cosmic scheme of things, my instruments' brands and provenence don't really matter, I like American instruments more.

Meanwhile, yes, I've played some great imports, and they can be great. It's hard to beat a Japanese Fender guitar. And when there's no good alternative, there's no shame in taking another alternative. Most importantly, as I said above, I fully appreciate the illogic of the blanket "buy American" rap.

So keep on pluckin! It's only rock 'n' roll, but I like it.

[Jeff Mando]

Getting off-topic, but in the old days, this was certainly true. But, today, and the for last 25-30 years, most of the major Japanese car brands have huge US factories employing Americans.

Nissan in Canton, Mississippi employs 6400 people. Toyota in Georgetown, Kentucky employs 8200 people. Subaru in Lafayette, Indiana employs 4600 people, etc.........

And, yes, a lot of those workers drive pickup trucks. Also, every brand of auto is now seen in the parking lots.....

I guess the next logical question would be, is a Subaru made in Indiana, a "foreign" car? Foreign, as opposed to being an "import", which it isn't.

[MontanaMatt]

Without intention I've morphed into US brand snob. It's happened by playing lots of instruments and developing a taste for fit, finish, sound and other layers of economics. I suppose I'm not a hardliner, and nice pieces will change my mind in the future. But I do admit, I have a very nice French violin from the 1920's, and I hold it in less regard due to it's frenchness(guess it's a result of the freedom fries propaganda):redface:

That aside, good sound knows no borders, unless it's on the CITES list.

[allenhopkins]

Let's tiptoe around the politics, folks, lest the hammer fall...

So besides my US-made and Asian-made instruments, I have a South African Hugh Tracey kalimba, a Sobell mandola which I guess still counts, post-Brexit, as European (plus a German-made "pocket" mandolin). I traded in my Bolivian armadillo-shell charango (John Bernunzio wanted it back), so nothing South American right now.

What's this got to do with "brand snobbery?" "Brand" ≠ "country of origin." Echoing Charley B's post above, my 1996 Dodge Caravan, purchased when Lee Iacocca was bellowing "buy American," had a Japanese engine, French Michelin tires, and was assembled in Canada. I'd go after the most suitable object, based on price and quality, pretty much regardless of brand, although I do use brand name as one clue as to quality. And it's nice to have an instrument made by a company with a recognizable identity and history, rather than one from an anonymous foreign factory that some distributor has stuck their name on.

And, of course, it's also nice not to have to explain what a Riffmaster mandolin is to three or four others at a jam -- people who'd instantly recognize a Gibson. But I'll bet owners of many small-builder, excellent mandolins, have to explain every now and then what a Pava, Kimble or Stiver is.

[billkilpatrick]

My Loar LM600 came from the mystic East and my Mid-Missouri M4 came from Mike. The Mid-Mo' is in a class all its own - easy to play with a particular voice and I wouldn't change or replace it for the world. I was delighted with the Loar when it first arrived and it still has pride of place in my lap. But … I hear you about brand snobbery.

The Loar is well-made - material, finish, luthery skills (as far as I understand them) etc., are all excellent and the rational I use when considering it is that if there was no brand name on the peghead and it had been brought down from the attic of a favored Aunt or Granny and presented to me in a dusty, battered case … I'd be MAS free at last, G-G-Almighty, etc..

But as it is … the way I look at it now … and however hard I try to rationalize it … my Loar ain't a Gibson.

[Beanzy]

I've kind of got it in reverse. I love the fact that I haven't fallen for the Gibson brand & play an instrument that was made exactly for me by someone I respect & spent months developing the ideas with. It's a bit like those musicians who are appreciated by the other musicians, but hardly anyone has heard of. I suspect this could be at the root of my indifference to the F style design too, I just don't want to play the same thing as 'everyone else' or fit into a pidgeon-hole. That definitely leads to a tainting of the great brands like Gibson etc for me. However being aware of this makes me appreciate the undeniable qualities of their high-end output when listening & looking closely; when they're on their game they really do excel..... I just wouldn't want to be caught buying one at the retail price.

[Dagger Gordon]

So in the last three weeks I've went from owning zero Asian imports to owning two. They sound great and are fun to play for a total investment of less than 1K. Not bad.

F-2 Dave
Brand Snob (reformed)

I certainly can't argue with that.
Not bad indeed.

However, I think I would be interested to hear if your viewpoint changes over time. I have some cheaper instruments, but in the end I do revert to my Collings and Sobell mandolins and my Lowden guitar. It's not so much being a 'brand snob' as genuinely preferring to play them.

Still, in many situations 'not bad' instruments are fine.

[Ron McMillan]

I have a $4,000 custom A4 (American made) and a late-70s no-name (probably Japanese) F5 that I swapped for a cheap guitar I no longer wanted and was worth maybe $100. I probably play the F5 three times as much as I do the A4. Inverse Brand Snobbery, perhaps?

[Russ Donahue]

This thread feels like a companion to another thread underway about a new line of instruments. That said, we are living in a time where there truly is an instrument or maker with a finish, sound, price point, reputation, case and evangelist to fit every player's taste, wallet or interest. Isn't that what really counts?

[Charlie Bernstein]

Getting off-topic, but in the old days, this was certainly true. But, today, and the for last 25-30 years, most of the major Japanese car brands have huge US factories employing Americans.

Nissan in Canton, Mississippi employs 6400 people. Toyota in Georgetown, Kentucky employs 8200 people. Subaru in Lafayette, Indiana employs 4600 people, etc.........

And, yes, a lot of those workers drive pickup trucks. Also, every brand of auto is now seen in the parking lots.....

I guess the next logical question would be, is a Subaru made in Indiana, a "foreign" car? Foreign, as opposed to being an "import", which it isn't.

Hey, Jeff!

Yep. That was then. This is now. My intrepid little beater was made in Japan. And I don't think they allowed foreign trucks (or motorcycles) in their lot, either.

But you've gotten me curious, so I just emailed this to UAW Region 9A:

-----------------

9A -

In the seventies, when I worked in Connecticut, I sometimes went to your Farmington office. I had a Japanese car that I parked down the road because foreign cars weren't allowed in the UAW parking lot.

I didn't mind. The policy made sense, and since I'd bought the car used in Connecticut, I didn't feel like I'd just shipped a job overseas.

But the question just came up in a conversation: With so many foreign auto makers building their cars in the US now, has the parking policy changed? Are any vehicles still prohibited from parking at your Farmington (or any) UAW office? What's your policy these days?

Thanks!

Charlie Bernstein
Augusta, Maine

---------------

I'll let you know what they say.

[JeffD]

I don't think there is merit in being an anti-snob either. I see this more often in the guitar world, where the cognitive dissonance of singing the blues with a $4000.00 guitar makes some folks go the other way, taking pride in playing a guitar they found in the Port Authority Bus Terminal men's room, using a jute chord for a strap, and a canvas sack repurposed from buying jasmine rice in bulk, for a case.

Play what you enjoy, enjoy what you play.

[samlyman]

My experience has been similar. In more than 25 years of playing I have mostly played mandolins made by Gibson (20s snakeheads), RL Givens and Collings with a short stint on a Heiden. I have had a couple of Kentucky 950 mandolins as second string instruments but none of these were keepers, even for second string.

A friend closed his music store last year and I bought a Kentucky KM-140 for less than cost. The mandolin was very well set-up and is a great player even though it is Kentucky's least expensive current mandolin.

I finally found a mando I can take anywhere without having to worry about weather, security, baggage handlers, etc. This mandolin cost a fraction of the Waverly tuners on my MT2V. It sounds great and is fun to play. It will never have the tonal complexity or boom of my Collings but it did not cost $5k either!

[JeffD]

I have a very nice Stiver two point mandolin. I have never, ever, not even once, thought I would rather have had the money I spent on it.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Getting off-topic, but in the old days, this was certainly true. But, today, and the for last 25-30 years, most of the major Japanese car brands have huge US factories employing Americans. . . .I guess the next logical question would be, is a Subaru made in Indiana, a "foreign" car? Foreign, as opposed to being an "import", which it isn't.

Just to answer, sort of, that off-topic question, I just heard back from the UAW:

------------

Hi Charlie,

Thank you for your email. We here in Farmington have a sign at the entrance to our parking lot with our preference that Union made cars park here, but we do not do much to enforce foreign made cars from parking here.

I do know that the International in Detroit as well as our retreat center in Black Lake, Michigan still do not allow nonunion made vehicles to park on their lots.

There is no blanket policy that I know of.

Have a nice day!

Catherine Graugard
UAW Region 9A

------------------

So in Connecticut it's an honor system. But I have no idea how they figure out what's union-made at sites where the no-non-union-cars rule is enforced.

I visited a UAW office in Canton, Mississippi, about five years ago. There's a Nissan plant in Canton, and it was very non-union. So I guess the big change you're talking about is that they used to keep out or discourage foreign cars, but now they keep out or discourage non-union-made cars. Somehow.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled broadcast . . . .

(Jeff, send me a private message if you want to talk more but don't want to further derail the post.)

[JeffD]

If you can play the potatoes of that mandolin, pretty much nobody cares what brand you are playing.

And if you can't, well pretty much nobody cares what brand you are playing.