Proper pick grip

[AndyPanda]

OK ... it's my first day playing mandolin but I've been reading the forum and watching videos for a couple of weeks. My only stringed instrument experience is with bass so this is quite a shock trying to fit my fat fingers between those tiny frets.

Now I've read about (and watched videos) of the pick position and I do see how having all four fingers (or at least the middle finger) supports the forefinger. And when I do that I can feel that support on the upstroke. But I just cannot get my hand comfortable nor can I find the strings I mean to pick. And the side of my forefinger gets sore - yeah, it's my first day so I'm sure I need to just persist and learn this new thing.

Probably because I already have callouses on the pads of my fingers from plucking the bass (but none on the sides of my fingers - I'm not playing upright bass) It feels much better to me to hold the pick between my thumb and the pads of my fingertips instead of the sides. And I can find the strings I want AND I can pick back away from the Florida extension - in fact that's where it feels natural to pick. But if I try the correct grip I find I'm picking right over Florida :)

I watched a video that said "you're not turning a door knob" indicating that the picking motion shouldn't be a rotation but an up-down motion of the wrist. I find I am rotating like turning a door knob.

I sort of already know the answer (so why am I asking) - that I should learn correctly even though it slows me down now and keep at it and eventually it'll make me faster.


This is Chris Thile showing how to hold the pick:
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And this is me doing it all wrong - but having a blast on my first day playing mandolin. Do I need to immediately stop having fun and do it correctly? Am I hurting myself playing like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSbylGJRbX0

[sblock]

Hey, it's just your first day!!!! Just about EVERYTHING has a way of feeling uncomfortable, at least at first. Just stick with it, and try to learn good hand position for both the left and right hands. Believe me, it will all come with enough practice. A little extra effort (and even some minor discomfort) at this stage, learning to execute things right, will pay huge dividends later, so that you don't develop awkward habits and tics that you might well have to "unlearn" later (but with much greater difficulty) as you progress and develop greater skill and speed. Don't fret with the left hand like a guitarist. Don't plant your right-hand pinky like a banjo player. Learn proper hand placement, proper pick grip, proper posture, and so on. There are basically two types of effective grip. The "standard" one holds the pick between the pad of the thumb and the top side of the bent index finger, in the region above the first joint, and supported from below by the other fingers. This is the same grip that Chris Thile uses, and so do most of the major players, using one or another very minor variations. But a few mandolin players -- including some great ones -- use a rather different grip, which holds the pick between the pad of the thumb and the pad of the index finger, which is therefore more extended, and occasionally even joined by the pad of the ring finger, held adjacent. I'd recommend learning the standard grip, but the other one works perfectly well for some people. If you find yourself picking over the wrong area, as you say (like over the fingerboard extension), then just MOVE YOUR ENTIRE HAND back towards the tailpiece. Problem solved. You can use either type of pick grip to pick anywhere you want by just moving your hand: you are certainly not required to pick in any particular spot by the grip you choose!

Anyway, pick a grip and then practice like a fiend. A happy fiend, that is. What could possibly be more fun than playing mandolin, I ask? (Hey, fellow Cafe-ers, that's a rhetorical question!!).

[JeffD]

Hey, it's just your first day!!!! Just about EVERYTHING has a way of feeling uncomfortable, at least at first.

That's it right there. Its all going to feel strange.

[Mark Wilson]

Careful - little deviations from proven methods that makes it easier going slow when starting out 'could' be the bad habit in your way once you figure out how to go faster

First day! congrats

[Tobin]

Yep, it's going to feel strange and alien to do it the "right way" when you start out, but it's very important. All of us who have played for more than a few years have had to go back at some point and readjust our picking technique because we had bad habits that became a roadblock later. You will too, I imagine, even if you are trying to do it right from the start. But the closer you can get it to correct from the get-go, the less trouble you'll have later.

What I see in your video is that you have a lot of tension in your picking hand. I mean, a LOT of tension. You're going to end up with serious pain, cramping, and possibly tendon or nerve issues if you play like that for long periods of time. I know it's not natural for you at this point, but you really need to close that hand up, get the pick between your fingers like your Thile photo, and learn to relax, holding the pick loosely. Use wrist motion parallel to the face of the mandolin, and just get used to that loose movement.

Most new players tend to pick like they're fighting the strings. You don't need to use that much 'snap' as you pick across the string. Which means you don't need to have a death grip on the pick.

Also, another thing that stood out in your video was pick direction. That's something you're going to want to jump on pretty quickly and cement into your playing style before it gets away from you. It'll be very hard to correct later. For a typical 4/4 tune like the one you're playing (Whiskey Before Breakfast), you want to use a standard down-up-down-up approach. I believe Thile covers this as well in his videos. Heck, all the pros cover it in their lessons. Pay attention to it and make it a natural flowing movement along with the relaxed pick grip, and it will start to feel natural soon enough.

Not bad picking, though, for your first day on the mandolin!

[Drew Egerton]

What I see in your video is that you have a lot of tension in your picking hand. I mean, a LOT of tension. You're going to end up with serious pain, cramping, and possibly tendon or nerve issues if you play like that for long periods of time. I know it's not natural for you at this point, but you really need to close that hand up, get the pick between your fingers like your Thile photo, and learn to relax, holding the pick loosely. Use wrist motion parallel to the face of the mandolin, and just get used to that loose movement.


This!

Take a look at Ronnie McCoury's wrist for an example of keeping it loose. "Like a dishrag" as Del told him when he started.
I still struggle with that sometimes on stage when the nerves take over or the speed gets out of hand. I think the tension is a bigger concern than how exactly to hold the pick. Look at Thile, Steffey, Bibey, Benson, etc. and they all do things differently in the details.
As they say in racing, loose is fast and on the edge (but not) of out of control! :mandosmiley:

[AndyPanda]

Thanks for all the helpful replies! :)

I've ordered the Chris Thile instructional DVD. Should have it in a couple of days. Meanwhile I'm practicing with the correct pick hold and getting used to it (though I sound terrible still - I know it'll come along).

The palm of my hand (that fat pad where the thumb joins my hand) is getting a sore spot from the sharp corner at the rear of the bridge saddle on the bass side. I can smooth/round that corner off but should my palm be resting/hitting that spot when I pick or should my hand be floating in the air and not touching the bridge? It's the downstroke where my hand hits that sharp edge.

[JeffD]

I like brushing, or as Mike says, "ever so slightly". (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmagoBQunZI)

[sblock]

Thanks for all the helpful replies! :)

I've ordered the Chris Thile instructional DVD. Should have it in a couple of days. Meanwhile I'm practicing with the correct pick hold and getting used to it (though I sound terrible still - I know it'll come along).

The palm of my hand (that fat pad where the thumb joins my hand) is getting a sore spot from the sharp corner at the rear of the bridge saddle on the bass side. I can smooth/round that corner off but should my palm be resting/hitting that spot when I pick or should my hand be floating in the air and not touching the bridge? It's the downstroke where my hand hits that sharp edge.

No, the palm of your hand should NOT be bearing down against the bridge! First, because of the constant hand motion involved in picking, it will wind up physically hurting you -- just as you've already discovered. Second, downward hand pressure applied to the bridge while sounding notes will absolutely kill the sound and ruin the tone (i.e., it acts like a mute). And third, fixing a single point of your palm against the bridge will prevent your hand from moving to other, useful picking positions, e.g., closer to the nut for a warmer tone, or closer to the bridge for a brighter tone. The better mandolinists micro-adjust their hand position all the time, in response to the music!

The point behind having the palm gently brush against the bridge, exerting negligible down-bearing pressure, is to provide a kinesthetic frame of reference, so your body knows exactly where your picking hand is, particularly along the dimension perpendicular to the top -- that is, in the direction towards or away from the mandolin, which sets the the picking depth. Getting just the right picking depth is critical, and one of the hardest things to learn at first. Too low, and you're jamming the pick down into the strings and encountering huge resistance while picking, requiring excessive strength and killing picking speed (which may be happening to you, based on your video). Too high, and you don't get good tone or volume from the strings, pick too lightly, and occasionally miss a string altogether! The depth has to be JUST RIGHT, and based on a loose hand. Now, 5-string bluegrass banjo players get the picking depth just right, and also get additional anchoring stability, by posting their pinky (and often the ring finger, too) against the top of the banjo head. And some mandolin players also post their pinky, too, for the exactly the same reason. But this is not considered to be good mandolin technique: it restricts the free hand motion needed for truly clean picking, and it eventually wears a hole clear through the finish, and even through the wood of the top, unless a pickguard is used -- and you don't have one. There are many threads on the pros and cons of pinky (or even ring finger) posting on the Mandolin Cafe. My suggestion is: if you're just beginning to learn, avoid doing it from the outset.

So instead of doing that, by brushing the the palm of the hand very lightly against the bridge saddle, you establish a steady frame of reference for the right-hand position, and especially for the picking depth. You can, of course, pick entirely freehand and never come into contact with the bridge at all -- and some folks do that. But then it's harder to establish that frame of reference for the right picking depth, which has to be correct to within millimeters!

Hopefully, that's clear enough.

[Mandoplumb]

There are as many answers to some of your questions as there are pickers. For example Sblock spoke of "free-handing" your picking hand, some do, I can't and I've played mandolin for 50 years. Some lightly brush the bridge as he said, I have a problem doing that, I quit brushing and try to plant my hand on the bridge and as stated that is a real problem for several reasons. What wasn't mentioned was brushing your pinky against the top or a pic guard which is what I do, there again planting is a problem. The point is, there are many correct ways to do all things mandolin and in my opinion, if you don't have a family member that plays mandolin, get a teacher that plays mandolin ( not a guitar play that knows a few chords on a mandolin) and do like he says until you become knowable enough to know why you are changing the way he says to do it. Yes that will mean that in some cases you will have to unlearn what you have learned, but you will find that the need to change will be very few. Asking everyone how to do it after only a week will just confuse and frustrate you IMHO.

[David L]

Thanks for all the helpful replies! :)

I've ordered the Chris Thile instructional DVD. Should have it in a couple of days. Meanwhile I'm practicing with the correct pick hold and getting used to it (though I sound terrible still - I know it'll come along).

The palm of my hand (that fat pad where the thumb joins my hand) is getting a sore spot from the sharp corner at the rear of the bridge saddle on the bass side. I can smooth/round that corner off but should my palm be resting/hitting that spot when I pick or should my hand be floating in the air and not touching the bridge? It's the downstroke where my hand hits that sharp edge.

If you are LIGHTLY touching the bridge or the unplayed strings just in front of the bridge, that is fine. I find that the corner of the bridge needs to be nice and rounded. I have sanded that corner on almost every instrument I own.

[George R. Lane]

I believe you would benefit from McClung armrest (I use one), sold by fellow Café member Doug Edwards. It will help you with the bridge corner problem by putting your hand in a correct position. I also agree that you have to loosen your grip, when I started playing I did the same thing and after a short while my hand was in a lot of pain. Aside from all the good advice you have been given your timing is very good.

Here is a link to Doug Edwards website; http://hillcountrystringworks.com/armrest5.html

[AndyPanda]

If you are LIGHTLY touching the bridge or the unplayed strings just in front of the bridge, that is fine. I find that the corner of the bridge needs to be nice and rounded. I have sanded that corner on almost every instrument I own.

Yes ... this is exactly what I'm doing. It's lightly brushing - but that corner is razor sharp so the continual back and forth (practicing up down strokes to a metronome) starts to irritate the skin in that area. I think rounding off the corners is what I need to do here.

[sblock]

Yes ... this is exactly what I'm doing. It's lightly brushing - but that corner is razor sharp so the continual back and forth (practicing up down strokes to a metronome) starts to irritate the skin in that area. I think rounding off the corners is what I need to do here.

You're welcome, of course, to round over your saddle edge on the G-side with some sandpaper. But the truth be told, with proper right-hand position, you should not be continually bumping into it in the first place! When we say that the palm of the right hand "gently brushes over" the bridge saddle, we usually mean that the palm remains level with the top of the saddle and brushes back and forth. We do not mean that it comes on and off the saddle, continually bumping against it with each picking stroke, NOR do we mean that the palm it is pressed up against the edge of the saddle, either. I strongly suspect that you have the wrong hand position if hitting the edge of the saddle is your problem. One very real possibility is that you are carrying your hand too low, so that a significant portion of your palm is situated on a level below that of the saddle top ("above" and "below" here mean with respect to the top of the instrument, not vertically)! As you rotate your wrist to move the pick up and down, that part of your palm keeps bumping into the corner of the bridge. Well, that's NOT where you should have your palm. The entire palm needs to remain above the level of the bridge saddle, and only the tip of the pick and fingers should reach "below" that level (i.e., towards the top) while picking. That gives the hand space to rotate without interfering with the bridge.

As someone suggested earlier, installing an armrest may help you to position your right hand in the proper place, by elevating your entire forearm a bit more. It does for a lot of people. But even if you don't install an armrest, you still need to raise your palm and re-position your hand so that it doesn't drop below the saddle level, and stops bumping into that saddle corner all the time (or resting against it). You should be gently brushing the flat part of the bridge saddle, instead. Not hitting the corners.

[AndyPanda]

I know that in the video I was holding the pick wrong and rotating my wrist - and doing that the pick was extended so I could reach the strings while my palm was nowhere near the saddle. But I believe I'm hearing that the correct pick hold and correct wrist motion has my wrist flexing up and down and not rotating at all. (am I correct on that?) And with that pick hold I have to get my hand much closer to the strings.

Now if I hold the pick the way I think is correct, my palm is NOT flat (this may just be my hand) - the pad of flesh where my thumb joins my hand bulges out and that is what is "lightly" brushing into the razor sharp point of the saddle when I'm downstroking on the E or A strings. And I'd have to hold my whole arm way out in front of the instrument (in an unnatural way) to be able to reach the strings with the pick and not have that ball of flesh brush the saddle.

Am I holding the pick correctly in this picture? The red circle is where the sharp saddle rubs my skin.

and thanks so much for being patient with my dumb questions and helping me get started :)
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[AndyPanda]

I made a quick video of my confusion about right hand position - if you could take a look and tell me what I'm missing, I'd appreciate it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em5Ra6prloI

[Tobin]

In your latest pic, I'd say your hand is too tight, like a fist. Again, that creates tension. It should be loosely curled. Your fingers may or may not actually touch your palm, depending on your natural hand shape. But when you relax your hand, the pad at the base of your thumb will not be as rounded.

Some folks, including me, play with more of an open hand. I mean, the three extra fingers are still slightly curled, but they brush lightly over the finger rest (pick guard). This, in combination with an arm rest, really helps with the angle and provides a reference for the picking hand, which helps get the palm away from the saddle.

Plus, it allows me to pick the strings further away from the bridge (toward the neck), around the 22nd fret area. MUCH better tone up there. Wrist couldn't hit the bridge even if I wanted to.

[CES]

Your questions aren't dumb at all!! On the contrary, they're quite intelligent. I have the Thile video as well...he'll answer your questions much better than we can, I assure you! I also like Mike Marshall's vids (that I think you can get to from the D'Addairio website), which describe similar techniques.

I personally flip back and forth between the Thile grip and a similar pick hold but with my pinky lightly brushing the top. I'd love to go completely floating, but don't have enough hours in the day to get it down...

Stick with it, and embrace the early struggle, it will pay dividends down the road!!

[AndyPanda]

In your latest pic, I'd say your hand is too tight, like a fist. It should be loosely curled.

Thanks .. if this grip is OK, this solves that particular problem for me. With the pick held like this, I can reach the strings without rubbing on the saddle.
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[George R. Lane]

Andy,
I hold my hand similar to yours, the only difference is I relax my fingers even more. Yes, sometimes I brush against the top and make a very faint mark, not a big deal to me.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Andy - The way you hold your pick as in your last post,is the way i hold mine. I hold it pretty firmly,but not too tight & i always have a limp wrist ( no comments please !). The Chris Thile DVD was the one i bought within the first week of owning a mandolin - it was the only tuition DVD for mandolin in the store. It's too advanced for beginners,but it does have many useful bits, even for a beginner,but,not all with suit you & they didn't suit me. It's the old story,use what you can & forget the rest.

My own pick problem at the start,was keeping the pick between my fingers at all,but over time i managed it. I do rest my hand on the saddle - very lightly. The amount of extra down pressure must be zero compared to what's already there, & i notice no change in tone over picking the strings when i'm playing 'chop chords' when i don't rest my hand.

It all takes time & practice & you'll get there as we all did - eventually :grin:,
Ivan;)

[bratsche]

Andy, your video in post 16 illustrates the same exact situation I had with my hand anatomy when I learned the closed-fist position, and why I had to majorly alter it for my use. You describe the problem perfectly! I started out before that by instinctively trying to hold the pick from the fingertips as well - in fact with forefinger, thumb and middle finger. But that wasn't optimal either. I could get a good sound that way, but not much speed in fast passages. Then I tried the "closed fist position" - which in my case, was more of a "grip" than a "hold". It really was not a natural position to keep my hand in for any reasonable period of time, even disregarding the fact that the fleshy part of the base of my thumb was getting in the way, so it led to tension and inevitable fatigue. My first finger would even go numb after a short while from being held so tightly curled up!

Now, when I hold my hand in a fist, and then tell myself to "relax", it remains in a position with all my fingers still curled inward, but no longer are the fingertips touching the palm, but instead they're about an inch away from the palm. This is where I have found it most comfortable and least tension-producing to play. The pick rests on my pointer finger's first joint from the fingertip, but that joint is open to about a 135 degree angle. Then the thumb covers most of the pick with just enough sticking out to play with (I use a large triangle shape thick pick). This way, the fleshy part of the base of my thumb does not protrude or get in the way of the bridge, though I may brush it lightly.

Good luck, and just try to find the position that works best for you. It's a process of trial and error, to be sure!

FWIW, I use armrests on my instruments also, which fit over the tailpiece, as that's where my arm comes over the instrument. I find it helps get additional elevation over the bridge (and protects the tailpiece from my arm damping vibration, as well as marring the tailpiece's finish with sweat).

bratsche

[Bill Findley]

Check out "Mike Marshall on Mandolin Tips" on youtube.

[sblock]

+1. I agree completely with Bratsche that with the "standard" grip (the one that uses the first joint of the index finger, and not the pad of that finger), the middle, ring, and pinky fingers are NOT tightened into a tense ball (like your first photo), but curl more gently inwards (like your second photo), and stay relaxed, so that they only come to within about half an inch of the the palm itself - and do not touch it. With this hand position, you can place the central (flat) part of your palm (the upper wrist) over the middle part of the bridge saddle. That way, the balls of the palm do not run right into the edge of the bridge saddle every time you flex your wrist and pick, but instead brush gently over it.

If you can learn good habits from the outset, there will be far less to unlearn later. As you see, many "pinky posters" present on this site really wish that they didn't have to do that (and have ugly blemishes in the tops of their instruments that stand in mute testimony of their less-than-perfect technique), but they now find it almost impossible to unlearn this habit. They would probably have to stop playing decently for weeks to months, in fact, to re-learn a new position and grip. Well, that's flat-out HARD! Maybe even harder than giving up smoking? Similar considerations hold for folks who under-use their pinkies on the left hand, using the ringer finger instead on the 7th fret. And it goes for folks who fret more like a guitarist than an mandolinist, with "flat fingers", not arched ones. It's very, very difficult to break old habits that actually work well at first, but might pose more subtle problems down the line. So try to start out right. ;)

[AndyPanda]

I received the Chris Thile DVD and it is the perfect instructional video IMO. I get really impatient with the typical YouTube tutorials that go at a snail's pace. I love that this instructional goes directly to proper technique and exercises that focus on building specific technique. And he gives good reasons - I really appreciate that!

I'm working on pick direction and three octave scales - woohoo! I'm glad I got this early on - I've had to spend a little time un-learning what I had been practicing and relearn several scales with correct pick direction ... but it's becoming more natural with each practice session.

Every once in awhile I find my pick hand relaxing and it feels so much better than the tensed up grip that I fall into. I'm excited, knowing that it's coming along and I'm going to be able to get this.

[PhilGox]

Hello Andy,

As I'm an old bass player too I hold the pick in a "wrong" position too.
I hold it between the pads of index and thumb, exactly as if I was playing with my index nail, without a pick.
(when I loose my pick, I play this way with my index nail...)
I think that it's the position which came naturally when you are used to pick the bass with your fingers unfolded.
But for me holding the pick in the academic way (with the index folded as shown in your last photo) is just impossible.
Feeling the same as triing to write with the wrong hand.
I triied to practice it but always came back to my "wrong" position every time I just wanted to play without thinking about my fingers.

It is not the only bad habit I heritated from bass playing.
For exemple on bass your fingers only do up strokes.
So for my little brain, a "natural" stroke is an up stroke.
When I read an exercise where up and down strokes are mentioned, I always reverse them if I am not VERY carefull.
I mean I naturaly begin with an up stroke instead of a down.

I tried hard to convince my brain to do everything " the right way" but I finally surendered.
Now I just get the pick as it seems natural to me and don't really care for how up and down strokes come.
Because for me the deal was: To play with fun or to forget mandolin.
I choosed to play it anyway.
I won't say I'm an exemple to follow but now I can play not so bad and... with lot of fun!

This just to say that you're not alone with your questions ;)
Hope you'll reach your goal :)

[MediumMando5722]

I use a similar grip to Thile's, but my fingers often don't stay in a fist. Also, I played electric guitar for over 20 years before picking up mandolin, so no palm-heel contact with the strings doesn't fly. I spent a lot of time using both hands to keep control over my guitar and see no reason to stop. I don't exactly rest my palm on the bridge, but rather use it to silence sympathetic ringing.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I've just been watching the opening sequence of the DVD ''Bluegrass Journey''. I know that Chris Thile posted a video where he advocates holding the pick ''this way'' -well, he didn't hold it like that back in 2004 !. He held it pretty much as i do & as Andy showed in his pic.,between the side of his first finger joint & thumb. I like to hold it like that because if i need any extra power,i use my fingers rather than my wrist to produce it. Holding the pick cushioned between your folded up first finger & thumb,you can't do that.

CT may very well have changed the way he holds his pick 'now',but the way he hed it 'then' produced pretty good results to my ears,:disbelief:
Ivan;)

[AndyPanda]

I've noticed, while watching many YouTube videos, that even Chris sometimes opens up and has his pinky, ring and middle finger brushing the top. It's not often that Chris does it - but Grisman pretty much always does and Mike Marshall changes up between several holds.

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[AndyPanda]

I've just been watching the opening sequence of the DVD ''Bluegrass Journey''.

I just looked at that video and grabbed this screen capture from the opening sequence.
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[Stevo75]

I've just been watching the opening sequence of the DVD ''Bluegrass Journey''. I know that Chris Thile posted a video where he advocates holding the pick ''this way'' -well, he didn't hold it like that back in 2004 !. He held it pretty much as i do & as Andy showed in his pic.,between the side of his first finger joint & thumb. I like to hold it like that because if i need any extra power,i use my fingers rather than my wrist to produce it. Holding the pick cushioned between your folded up first finger & thumb,you can't do that.

CT may very well have changed the way he holds his pick 'now',but the way he hed it 'then' produced pretty good results to my ears,:disbelief:
Ivan;)

I've seen the video where Chris explains how to hold the pick "this way" and that was between his thumd and side of the first finger. How is the way he held it in 2004 different? It sounds the same to me...

[AndyPanda]

I've seen the video where Chris explains how to hold the pick "this way" and that was between his thumd and side of the first finger. How is the way he held it in 2004 different? It sounds the same to me...

In the videos where he discusses the "proper" pick grip, he has his middle finger, ring finger and pinky all supporting the first finger. In the 2004 video Ivan mentioned, he is doesn't have the other three fingers supporting.

[Jairo Ramos]

When I began to study my first plucked instrument (more than 40 years ago), the colombian bandola, an instrument of the family of the spanish bandurria, my teacher taught me how to hold the pick: between the side of the first finger joint and thumb. Since then that is the way I hold the pick. Maybe is the way to hold the pick in the spanish tradition...

That is the way I hold the pick since I began to study mandolin...but learning bluegrass, I noticed that american players hold the pick otherwise, "the standard pick grip". I tried to learn to hold the pick this way, but I gave up, maybe to old to learn this technique. Why to change if that way works for me? I have all the books of Jay Buckey, in Bluegrass mandolin I He wrote: "A plastic flat pick is held between the Thumb and Index finger of the Right Hand". Two photos in the book showed me that He holds the pick the same way as me...

[sblock]

When I began to study my first plucked instrument (more than 40 years ago), the colombian bandola, an instrument of the family of the spanish bandurria, my teacher taught me how to hold the pick: between the side of the first finger joint and thumb. Since then that is the way I hold the pick. Maybe is the way to hold the pick in the spanish tradition...

That is the way I hold the pick since I began to study mandolin...but learning bluegrass, I noticed that american players hold the pick otherwise, "the standard pick grip". I tried to learn to hold the pick this way, but I gave up, maybe to old to learn this technique. Why to change if that way works for me? I have all the books of Jay Buckey, in Bluegrass mandolin I He wrote: "A plastic flat pick is held between the Thumb and Index finger of the Right Hand". Two photos in the book showed me that He holds the pick the same way as me...

I think you may be confused bit, here. The "standard" pick grip used by so many players in American bluegrass IS "between the side of the first finger joint and the thumb"!! Specifically, the pad of the underside of the thumb touches the pick on its top side, and the side of the first finger in the vicinity of the last joint touches the pick on its bottom side. So these American players do not "hold the pick otherwise." They hold it the same way.

[sblock]

In the videos where he discusses the "proper" pick grip, he has his middle finger, ring finger and pinky all supporting the first finger. In the 2004 video Ivan mentioned, he is doesn't have the other three fingers supporting.

This depends what you mean by the word "supporting." Merely contacting the side of the index finger with the adjacent middle finger does not (and cannot) provide real mechanical "support" unless the middle finger actually serves to buttress the index finger ring during an upstroke, that is, unless it pushes directly up against it. But when the fingers of the picking hand are held loosely, as Chris recommends, this buttressing action does NOT occur. And if you look at the pictures posted for Chris, Dawg, Marshall, and others earlier in this thread, you'll see that the middle finger is held loosely (and it's fairly straight in 3 of 4 cases), and is therefore not in tight contact with the index. It is not "supporting" the index.

Put another way, in the standard grip, the pick is supported by one finger on its top side (the thumb) and by another finger on its bottom side (the index). Not by two on the bottom.

[AndyPanda]

On Chris' instructional DVD and also on a YouTube video, he specifically talks about keeping at least the middle finger (and preferably the ring and pinky too) against the first finger specifically to support the upstroke.

I'm the one that posted the picture of Dawg, Marshall and Chris with the other three fingers loose (to illustrate that sometimes they do leave them loose) but 99.9% of the time Chris has all four knuckles touching each other as he recommended in his instructional.

[sblock]

On Chris' instructional DVD and also on a YouTube video, he specifically talks about keeping at least the middle finger (and preferably the ring and pinky too) against the first finger specifically to support the upstroke.

I'm the one that posted the picture of Dawg, Marshall and Chris with the other three fingers loose (to illustrate that sometimes they do leave them loose) but 99.9% of the time Chris has all four knuckles touching each other as he recommended in his instructional.

Alas, what Chris Thile SAYS he does (and what he certainly thinks he does) and what he actually does are two different things! Funny how we can sometimes be wrong about ourselves, only to be brought up short by real-world evidence. Please check out Chris' right hand while playing a lovely Bach sonata in this video, for example. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3lH_Tevw5o) This recording is from 2013, and it's pretty characteristic of his recent (adult) playing. Look especially carefully at the tiny gap that keeps occurring between his middle and index finger, visualized as a slender dark region that extends from the knuckle area all the way down to the very base of the fingers, located right between the index and middle fingers. This dark gap is particularly evident in the video between minutes 5 and 7 into the video, but it's there throughout.

The presence of this recurring gap suggests that the middle finger IS NOT, in fact, pressing up against the index finger, and it is therefore not providing much, if any, support for the upstroke. That's a myth.

And it is definitely not the case that "99.9% of the time Chris has all four knuckles touching each other" in this video! There are gaps everywhere between his four knuckles, and you see these gaps quite clearly in the video. Chris holds a "loose hand", not a tight one!! Sorry to disagree, but the evidence is right there to see.

Incidentally, elsewhere in his instructional materials, Chris always emphasizes keeping a loose grip on the pick, and not a tight one.

[Jairo Ramos]

I prefer a graphic, my english maybe is not so good...

The first diagram is what I understand for "standard pick grip", the second and third photos is the way Jay Buckey and I use.

154466

[sblock]

I prefer a graphic, my english maybe is not so good...

The first diagram is what I understand for "standard pick grip", the second and third photos is the way Jay Buckey and I use.

154466

All three of your illustrations show the "standard grip." Photos two and three employ a slightly straighter index finger than the drawing of Figure 1, but this is a pretty trivial difference, and the degree of index bend depends on your hand shape, finger length, and so on. Notice that all three diagrams still sandwich the pick between (1) the fleshy pad of the thumb and (2) the upper side of the index finger in the region located at, and above, the first joint. The meat of the pick basically rests upon the final joint of the index finger, on its side. SAME GRIP.

There is another, different grip that holds the pick between the pad of the thumb and the pad of the index finger. A popular variation of this grip is to use the top side of the pad of the index finger, which keeps the index fairly extended at all times. Anthony Hannigan holds his pick this way, and so does Andy Statman (at least to some extent). And ditto for Jesse McReynolds' grip, which is quite similar, in that respect. Check it out here. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiyF52PiDz4) Look especially at the closeup shown at 1 minute into the video, and you'll see he uses the pad of his index to grip the pick from below, and not the side! And yet another grip holds the pick between the pad of the thumb and the pads of the index and middle fingers, held together. None of these is the standard grip. But some players use it quite effectively, it must be said.

[Ivan Kelsall]

In the YouTube clip where Chris T. explains the correct way to hold a pick,he's explaining the 'classic' way to hold one - Jairo's ''Standard Grip' diagram above. I've seen diagrams showing that method countless times. It could very well be that CT has modified his grip since he became immersed in Classical music ie.his Bach recordings. There may be advantages in holding a pick that way for 'some' styles of music. It might work for some people,but i've tried it & it doesn't work too well for me. That's not to say that it prevents me from playing,it's simply not comfortable. Most of my 'picking power' comes from my fingers rather than my wrist,except when i'm playing 'chop chords',& holding a pick in the 'classic' way prevents me from doing that,i have to use my wrist or i just don't get much 'push' on the strings. So,i hold my pick in a ''similar'' manner to Jairo's
second diagram.

The first pic.shows what i term the 'classic' pick grip - note that the fingers are bent in towards the palm. The second pic.is how i hold mine.

If it works 'for you',fine,if it doesn't,''do it your way'' - it's still legal !,:grin:
Ivan;)
154473154474

[MediumMando5722]

CT makes a big point of relaxing your arms and hands, and observing where they come to rest. It's going to be a little different for everyone. For instance, my fingers are more open than his when relaxed. I think the point is keeping everything loose and relaxed, so using your hand's natural resting position will maximize that.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Chris above - "..using your hand's natural resting position..." . Absolutely - 'natural is it!. Forcing your hand into a position that's uncomfortable / unnatural is self defeating, & will work against what you're trying to achieve,
Ivan;)

[August Watters]

The first diagram is what I understand for "standard pick grip", the second and third photos is the way Jay Buckey and I use.

154466

The third photo shows the pick pointed in the same direction as the index finger, with pick contacting finger below the knuckle. The first photo shows the pick pointed perpendicular to the index finger, with the pick contacting the knuckle on side of index finger.

Here in the USA we tend to say "standard pick grip" to mean the first way. But it's not "standard" outside of the USA, as Jairo has pointed out. I think it's good to get away from anecdotes about this or that player and how he/she does it, and look at the way things are usually done in various technical traditions. It's not unusual to find differences.

[sblock]

The third photo shows the pick pointed in the same direction as the index finger, with pick contacting finger below the knuckle. The first photo shows the pick pointed perpendicular to the index finger, with the pick contacting the knuckle on side of index finger.

Here in the USA we tend to say "standard pick grip" to mean the first way. But it's not "standard" outside of the USA, as Jairo has pointed out. I think it's good to get away from anecdotes about this or that player and how he/she does it, and look at the way things are usually done in various technical traditions. It's not unusual to find differences.

Your characterization of these grips has a lot that is correct, but it is not fully accurate. There are two distinct issues at play, here. First: You maintain that the key difference is that the tip of the index finger is either (1) pointing in a direction perpendicular to the line connecting the center of the pick and its point, or (2) is pointing parallel to this line. And second: Is the pick contacting mainly the side of the index finger, or mainly the pad of that finger? However, in neither grip is the index fingertip either perpendicular or parallel to the pick direction. So this is a faulty distinction.

Close examination of the last drawing in the first figure (which is the final grip) will show that the tip of the index finger is NOT quite pointing fully perpendicular to the line connecting the pick center and its point, but is, in fact, tilted slightly towards that line (making an angle of ~80 degrees). And the SIDE of the index finger is mostly engaged, and not the pad.

Close examination of the third photo will show that the tip of the index finger also is NOT pointing parallel to the line connecting the pick center and its point (as asserted). In fact, there's a nearly 45 degree angle between these vectors, and you can clearly see that the tip of the pick is NOT in line with the tip of the finger. The finger is curled a bit more back towards the palm. It does NOT make a 90-degree angle with the thumb. In addition, the bent index is mostly contacting the pick along its side, with only a tiny bit of the side of the finger pad engaged.

These two grips are therefore substantially the same -- not different. The index fingertip angle is from roughly 45 degrees to 80 degrees to the pick direction, and this angle will vary from person to person, with hand geometry. Importantly, they both involve holding the pick at the crook of a bent index finger, above the first JOINT, and engaging mainly the side of this index finger in the hold. The second example curls the index just a bit less and uses a tiny corner of the pad, but it still uses a bent index finger and its side, so it is not a fundamentally different grip. In fact, if you look at U.S. players who claim to employ the "standard grip," you will see a continuum of possibilities, all with slightly different degrees of bend in that first finger joint.

As discussed earlier, some fundamentally different grips, such as those used by Jesse McReynolds (also Anthony Hannigan an others), instead employ a full contact with the PAD of the index finger, and not by its its SIDE. Moreover, the index tip joint is kept fairly straight, and not bent.

[JeffD]

I think it's good to get away from anecdotes about this or that player and how he/she does it, and look at the way things are usually done in various technical traditions. It's not unusual to find differences.

+1

I am sure that the reason I can't play like Chris Thile, and never ever will be able to, has nothing to do with the gap or lack of gap between my knuckles.

Just sayin....

[sblock]

+1

I am sure that the reason I can't play like Chris Thile, and never ever will be able to, has nothing to do with the gap or lack of gap between my knuckles.

Just sayin....

Amen to that.

[WillHelton]

....The pick rests on my pointer finger's first joint from the fingertip, but that joint is open to about a 135 degree angle. Then the thumb covers most of the pick with just enough sticking out to play with (I use a large triangle shape thick pick). This way, the fleshy part of the base of my thumb does not protrude or get in the way of the bridge, though I may brush it lightly....

bratsche

This is my constant struggle. As Sam Bush has said, "I assume you've got to rest your hand somewhere" and for me, the most comfortable thing is to rest the the fleshy part of the base of my thumb slightly behind the top of the bridge, so I'm not dampening the strings.

That being said, when I play, my right hand does this very annoying bobbing in and out as I pick the strings. It's like the effort of playing / striking the strings is causing my hand to ricochet out and have to come back in to complete the next pick stroke. If I warm up/play for about half an hour, I seem to be able to limit this to a certain extent, but it's driving me up the wall: Each day when I pick up my mandolin to practise, it's almost like I'm starting over from square one again.

What I'd love to be able to do is play "through" the strings like Mike Compton or Chris Thile. It's like each of their pick strokes just cut through the strings and their hands remain perfectly up and down.

For the record, I tried positioning my hand like Mike Marshall (resting the fleshy part of my pinky side of my hand just behind the bridge), but found this was extremely uncomfortable and made the bobbing problem twice as bad.

When I'm warmed up, however, I can usually play pretty decently about about 195-205 bpm, so is it just a case of continuing to work at it and it will improve with time? I would have thought if the peculiarity of my technique was limiting, I wouldn't be able to play decently at those sorts of tempos.

Do others find any of this to be familiar?

Will

[Bill McCall]

In my struggle with bouncing, I was told to practice with rest strokes, down and up. It forces a strike through the string in both directions. Had that guidance from my teacher reinforced by John Moore in a workshop.

Do it every day. I use a web cam to check my hand movement while practicing.

[DavidKOS]

This is my constant struggle. As Sam Bush has said, "I assume you've got to rest your hand somewhere" and for me, the most comfortable thing is to rest the the fleshy part of the base of my thumb slightly behind the top of the bridge, so I'm not dampening the strings.


In the old Italian tradition the forearm was partially supporting the most-likely bowl back mandolin, but one did NOT rest the hand on anything.

https://www.themandolintuner.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Holding-the-mandolin.jpg

https://www.themandolintuner.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/holding-the-mandolin-2.jpg

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=142442&d=1452085773

Me decades ago

http://oobamandolintabs.com/beginners-course/using-the-pick/

even with non-bowlbacks:

"The right hand should be free with no part of the hand or wrist touching the mandolin"

[WillHelton]

In my struggle with bouncing, I was told to practice with rest strokes, down and up. It forces a strike through the string in both directions. Had that guidance from my teacher reinforced by John Moore in a workshop.

Do it every day. I use a web cam to check my hand movement while practicing.

Thanks, Bill. I'll start doing that tomorrow morning!

Appreciated,

Will

[WillHelton]

"The right hand should be free with no part of the hand or wrist touching the mandolin"

I appreciate the sentiment, but I've tried playing that way and I have zero pick and hand control. :)

If Marshall, Bush and Statman can play with a rested right hand (and man, can they play!), I reckon I'm in good company. ;)

Will

[B381]

So, I started out like many people and thought I wanted to play guitar. Then I discovered mandolin and haven't looked back. Now, I'm still in the beginning stages, but realize I hold my pick like a guitar style after reading this whole thread. So, following the wisdom of holding it in a better way....I now have dogs howling and sound like my 4 year old trying to play...this is going to take a minute to get back to where I was in sound but it sure is louder.

[DavidKOS]

I appreciate the sentiment, but I've tried playing that way and I have zero pick and hand control. :)

If Marshall, Bush and Statman can play with a rested right hand (and man, can they play!), I reckon I'm in good company. ;)

Will

There is a difference between "rested" (which I do sometimes myself, depending on the actual instrument) and "planted".

I think the comment really should be "the right hand should not be firmly planted but able to move freely".

[WillHelton]

Well, folks, here we are again. I've been trying to refine my right-hand technique and am still pretty much where we all last found me: struggling to play faster than about 190bpm without having my right hand bob in and out like a trailer hitch. :(

If we look at Thile playing here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gFGPicoOIY

He has a certain amount of bobbing in and out, but this completely disappears when he seamlessly ramps up the tempo. Try as I might, I just can't seem to get this to happen for me. The best I think I've done is to find that:

1. I still feel like when I pick up and start playing each day there is a 'judder' in my pick strokes. As if I'm just not really relaxed and attacking the strings at the correct angle somehow

2. My upstrokes may not be as controlled and fluid as my downstrokes, so perhaps this is the source of (most of) the problem

I have to reiterate that I don't have this problem when playing guitar, but I play with a gypsy jazz (jazz manouche) right hand and attack, much like Angelo Debarre:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Hj7WvKFUg

That is, my right hand is bent at the wrist and the tips of my non-pick fingers lightly brush the top of the guitar as a guide.

It really is just super frustrating that I can't seem to crack this. I've been playing guitar and bass (electric and double bass) since I was a kid (I'm in my 50s now) and so I have no problem with theory, chords, scales, soloing concepts and approaches, etc. I just can't get my wretched right hand to do what I need it to do. <Groan>

If there is anyone here who thinks they might have the answer, I'd love to hear from you. I really, really want to get this sorted.

Thanks,

Will

[Bill McCall]

I still struggle with it too. I’m trying to solve the issue a bit indirectly, as force of will hasn’t seemed to work. Can’t relax faster:-). But I work on tremolo and that seems to be the gateway to better pick mechanics and speed. At least that's my current working hypothesis:-)

And I recall my classical guitar teacher, 40+ years ago, ‘you want to play like artist but you are beginner’. I’m no where near the hours Thile has put in to play that smoothly with his right hand. Not many people have. Not getting frustrated with that is a big step, for me anyway.

[hucklebilly]

[QUOTE=WillHelton;1721328]Well, folks, here we are again. I've been trying to refine my right-hand technique and am still pretty much where we all last found me: struggling to play faster than about 190bpm without having my right hand bob in and out like a trailer hitch. :(

If you're really able to play up to 190 bpm before you start having problems, I'd say that's not much of a problem. Could it be we're counting beats differently? As a reference, here are Sierra Hull and Adam Steffey playing at 120 bpm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9BFap-L-Bk

[WillHelton]

@hucklebilly

Yeah, we must be counting those differently. :D

I'm counting 4 beats to the bar, not 2 (so literally 1-2-3-4) and have that playing back as such from my metronome.

I sometimes just run the metronome at half time (that is, beats 2 and 4 only) to give things a bit more room to swing, but that's once I've warmed up and am trying to get a smoother sound. For just straightforward clean picking, I use the 4 beats to a bar.

[WillHelton]

@Bill McCall

Yeah, I do that, too, but some days it's just like my hand is no longer under control of my brain. Today is a good example. Nothing I play sounds good and my hand flies off in all sorts of annoying directions.

I'll just keep plugging ahead. It's gotta break my way at some point, right? ;D

[WillHelton]

Folks,

I've had a mit of a eureka moment and have provided an update here:

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/threads/131607-Abysmal-Right-Hand?p=1721975#post1721975

Feedback from any and all would be most welcome.

Thanks and have a good weekend,

Will