tuning stabiity

[Bad Monkey]

got a last second call for a fill-in last night so I grabbed the first thing smoking and headed downtown. Well, actually, I ran over a couple blocks and jumped on the light rail and zipped on down. Ended up taking my Eastman 614 mostly because it was sitting on the ottoman in the case and the F4 was sitting on the other side of the room. Really was a last second call. Didn't even change, just jumped in a pair of shoes and split.

But I digress. Point of the story is that when I got to the pub, the fiddle player grabs me and we scoot to the stage. I barely have time to open the case before the first jig set is rolling. I never tuned up. never thought about it. Didn't tune up until after the second break. So I ran out the door with an untuned mandolin, took a 20 mn trip downtown, played two 45 mn sets before I checked if I was even in tune. Turns out I was!?! I had tuned the eastman that afternoon but that kind of stability is crazy. Strings aren't too new on her, have been on about 4 weeks or so but I haven't gigged her since, only a handful of days practice time.

So my question is what are your experiences with tuning stability with these newer mandolins? The F4 is pretty stable but would not have put up with that stunt. If the new tuners are that much betterer I may think about replacing the tuners on the F4.

[David L]

Why wouldn't it be (mostly) in tune? I don't always need to tune my instruments, especially if they have been tuned within a day or so.

[JeffD]

Most of my instruments are mostly in tune most of the time.

[Bad Monkey]

Well I'm def. checking into a tuner upgrade then. My F4 would need a couple twists after running downtown in the cold.

[jmkatcher]

My older Rigel with Grovers is at least that stable, once the strings have been broken in of course.

[Tobin]

Well I'm def. checking into a tuner upgrade then. My F4 would need a couple twists after running downtown in the cold.

I doubt it has anything to do with your tuners. It's the body of the mandolin itself (and neck, of course) that will be affected by temperature and humidity changes, causing tuning instability when leaving the house. The finer the build of a mandolin, the thinner the plates, the better tone they get - but it comes at the cost of dimensional stability. You can build a mandolin like a tank, and it will hold tuning very well, but not sound as good.

Eastmans, like most imported mandolins, are overbuilt. Hence, better tuning stability.

[Bad Monkey]

That makes sense. Gotta be a big chunk of it right there. I've got a 66 tele that's a brick s-house that stays in tune until you take the strings off her. Although I'm sure the ancient tuners on the F4 aren't helping; there's a lot of slop in 'em. I'm not worried about originality since they were replaced long ago, most likely in the '20s.

[mandobassman]

My J Bovier is in tune almost every time I take it out of the case. Even if I don't play it for days. My strings are about a year-and-a-half old and that hasn't seemed to make a difference either.

[mandroid]

One of the benefits of the Carbon Fiber Mix, is even with the humidity and temperature changes
that cause wooden instruments to swell and shrink, and thus change tuning slightly,

not being moisture sensitive the Composite is quite stable.

As mentioned elsewhere, the shorter scale length has tiny changes more noticeable
than, if it was a long Scale like a Guitar..



...

[allenhopkins]

You lucked out; the environment at the gig was pretty much like the environment in your home, and the light-rail trip didn't expose the MD-614 to any temperature extremes. And, possibly, you don't dig into your strings with great force, or "bend" strings a lot, both of which can untune your instrument.

I find the greatest "tuning instability" is bringing instruments out of my relatively cool, humid basement "music room," to a playing space that's at a much different temperature or humidity. Taking them to an outdoor venue, for example, guarantees I'll need to do some pretty extensive retuning; direct sunlight can heat up instruments almost instantly, and that clip-on tuner gets a workout -- complicated by the fact that a lot of clip-ons are hard to read in direct sunlight!

Congratulations on your good luck, and don't expect you'll be that fortunate every time.

[Bad Monkey]

It doesn't help that I'm annoyingly fussy about intonation and tuning in general. I'm lucky that my regular band supports my obsession. Even the drummer. Tuesday night he asked me if on of the strings of my A course on the zouk was out. He was right although I'm sure we wasn't just winding me up and got lucky...

[Bad Monkey]

You lucked out; the environment at the gig was pretty much like the environment in your home, and the light-rail trip didn't expose the MD-614 to any temperature extremes. And, possibly, you don't dig into your strings with great force, or "bend" strings a lot, both of which can untune your instrument.

I find the greatest "tuning instability" is bringing instruments out of my relatively cool, humid basement "music room," to a playing space that's at a much different temperature or humidity. Taking them to an outdoor venue, for example, guarantees I'll need to do some pretty extensive retuning; direct sunlight can heat up instruments almost instantly, and that clip-on tuner gets a workout -- complicated by the fact that a lot of clip-ons are hard to read in direct sunlight!

Congratulations on your good luck, and don't expect you'll be that fortunate every time.

In 35 years of playing out I've never gotten that lucky tuning-wise. There's always a tweak or two at least.

[JeffD]

I doubt it has anything to do with your tuners. It's the body of the mandolin itself (and neck, of course) that will be affected by temperature and humidity changes, causing tuning instability when leaving the house. The finer the build of a mandolin, the thinner the plates, the better tone they get - but it comes at the cost of dimensional stability. You can build a mandolin like a tank, and it will hold tuning very well, but not sound as good.

Eastmans, like most imported mandolins, are overbuilt. Hence, better tuning stability.

I am not sure I entirely agree. I think all things being equal a fine instrument will in general hold its tuning better. But in a test like this, traveling here and there, the quality of the case itself, and as Allen points out, the climate (temperature and humidity) at the destination point, have a lot of impact.

I am astonished at how well my best mandolins stay in tune.

[Mandoplumb]

I am not sure I entirely agree. I think all things being equal a fine instrument will in general hold its tuning better. But in a test like this, traveling here and there, the quality of the case itself, and as Allen points out, the climate (temperature and humidity) at the destination point, have a lot of impact.

I am astonished at how well my best mandolins stay in tune.
I think what Tobin was saying was a "lighter" built mandolin is affected more by temp. and humidity and I think he's right. I can see where good case would control the temp. and humidity better than a poor one and thus slow down the changes. I know my Dearstone is the best mandolin I've owned and is most affected by temp. and humidity

[Tobin]

I think what Tobin was saying was a "lighter" built mandolin is affected more by temp. and humidity and I think he's right. I can see where good case would control the temp. and humidity better than a poor one and thus slow down the changes. I know my Dearstone is the best mandolin I've owned and is most affected by temp. and humidity

Yes, that's what I was getting at. Thinner plates are more flexible; that's a fact. They will deflect more when strings get cold and contract, compared to thicker plates. They also react more quickly to environmental factors because they have less mass. My best mandolins are the most reactive to the environment, compared to the starter import I used to own, which was way overbuilt.

There will always be plenty of other variables at play, but I think this is a big part of it.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I noticed within a few weeks of begining playing just how much a mandolin can be affected by room temps. These days,even if i couldn't see outside my home,i could almost tell what the weather's like by testing the tuning on one of my mandolins. Sharp = cold(er) / flat = warm(er). Humidity doesn't play much of a part in my home unless we have a very warm,humid summer.
In a period of weather that's pretty stable,my mandolins will stay in tune for many days at a time,
Ivan

[Tavy]

In a period of weather that's pretty stable,my mandolins will stay in tune for many days at a time,
Ivan

Exactly, stable weather = stable tuning.

Normally mine are stable for days at a time, but last night I had the opposite experience to the OP - a day of cold wet stormy weather had left me about a 1/4 semi-tone sharp everywhere. Even the e-strings which I can normally go weeks without ever having to touch were way out (a-strings are a whole other story though).

[barry]

I think what Tobin was saying was a "lighter" built mandolin is affected more by temp. and humidity and I think he's right. I can see where good case would control the temp. and humidity better than a poor one and thus slow down the changes. I know my Dearstone is the best mandolin I've owned and is most affected by temp. and humidity


That's what I always thought. However, I have a 1944 D-18 that is the lightest dreadnought guitar you will likely encounter. It even has the wartime ebony truss rod. Yet, for whatever reason, the tuning stays remarkably stable through temperature and humidity changes.
By comparison, I have a, much more robustly built, 1965 D-18 that lives in the same room. It behaves as one would expect. Goes flat when it gets warmer, sharp when the temp drops. I don't really have an explanation.

[CES]

The gods of gigging have smiled brightly upon you! Do not question their generosity, but receive it with gratitude and humility!!! ;)

I have an Eastman 315 that's a great little mandolin. Not quite as complex in tone as my Silverangel or MT, but not far off, either. My only complaint is that the tuners aren't terribly stable. I'm actually thinking about upgrading them. Your 614 has better hardware than mine, clearly (as advertised). The SA and MT stay pretty stable as long as temp/humidity changes aren't extreme. :mandosmiley:

[Bad Monkey]

overall I'm pretty pleased with the 614. In a pub with a couple hundred rowdy Guinness fans playing through the PA I don't think anyone can hear the difference between the Eastman and the F4. Certainly the F4 sounds a bit sweeter in the studio but that would be a whole other barrel of monkeys.

[Capt. E]

Mostly when my tuning is off, it is usually limited to 2 or 3 strings. The E strings have fewer problems that the lower notes. It seems to happen mostly from temperature and humidity changes. If a string is really badly off, you may have a mechanical problem: nut and bridge slots, the tuning machine or the string itself.

[pops1]

My Brentrup is built quite heavy, you can't overdrive the top. Weather, moisture and all little things that exist affect my tuning. Some of my lighter mandolins hold better. I think thinner wood can swell less than a slightly thicker piece of wood.

Another take on a subject that will have no answer.:popcorn:

[Bad Monkey]

kind of like the nitro/poly, rosewood/maple fretboard "discussions" that go on over at the fender forums...

[Ivan Kelsall]

Yesterday,i played my Ellis & it was a tiny bit 'flat'. Not surprising as the weather in the North of England has been wet but pretty mild in temp. I hadn't played the Ellis for a few days,so it didn't surprise me at all - it's what i've come to expect from any of them.

Simply a fact of mando.life - time to move on !,:grin:
Ivan;)