Free resources to learn playing in the keys of B and Bb

[FrDNicholas]

I continue to struggle with these keys. I am starting to pick out familiar tunes playing them in these keys to get some of the basic fingering down, and that is helping. I'm also wondering if there's some free stuff out there in standard notation,(I don't read tab) that might also help me. I'm also opened for other suggestions as to learning to improvise in these keys. I can play the major scales in these keys, not so familiar with the pentatonic, although I could figure them out. I would be grateful for help from you folks.

[Bill McCall]

Play the arpeggios, major, minor, 7th. Start them on each chord tone, and use different starting fingers. Play the arpeggios in sequence to a song. All kinds of melodies will become available. In your spare time you can add the arpeggios for all scale tones beyond the chord tones. Lots more notes become available.

[DougC]

Oh, another 'cheap skate' huh? Just kidding. But as one who is really cheap I have a whole bunch of links to share. Ha, ha.
Send me a personal message and I'l forward them to you. Fortunately there is a lot of free material out there. Unfortunately you have to study hard to learn. There is no easy way. You may end up with a lot of helpful stuff but you will still be a 'Dummie' (as they say in the book series.)

[John Adrihan]

I am not being a smart aleck but what is so difficult in playing in b flat or b vs let's say c? Or a?

[Jess L.]

... what is so difficult in playing in b flat or b vs let's say c? Or a?

Well... that's going to depend on one's background I suppose. For me, the difficulty is:

Too many 1st-fret notes and 6th-fret notes. I'm not used to them, and they screw up the whole flow of everything because they make me think too much instead of just playing.

I grew up playing everything in the key of D, G, or cross-tuned A (instrument tuned to AEAE instead of standard GDAE). Uncommon to have any need for 1st fret or 6th fret there. The fingers are already programmed to automatically go to 2nd-fret and 5th-fret, without even having to think about it.

But changing the key such that now I'm supposed to play the 1st fret instead of the 2nd fret, just about completely wipes out years of previous experience (or 'training', if you will) with where the notes 'should' be.

So then I have to actually consciously *think* about finger placement.

The small amount of time necessary for such thinking, interferes with the creative process (improv, variations, etc) because instead of the mind thinking about the flow of the tune, instead the mind has to focus on purely mechanical stuff such as which fret makes what sound.

Could presumably be fixed with sufficient practice, probably around the same number of decades it took me to finally get comfortable with the 'easy' keys (I wouldn't live that long), and some sort of motivation for such practice.

In my case, I have no such motivation to completely reprogram my fingers for unusual keys, because the issue comes up infrequently (at this point in time anyway).

On the rare occasions when I do want to work on a tune in a key I'm not accustomed to, I find it helpful to tab it out and follow along with the tab for the first day or so until I get accustomed to that particular tune.

At least with tab there's no chance of misinterpreting a note and landing on the 2nd fret instead of the 1st, instead you just do what the tab says.

But, the OP said tab wasn't an option.

Ordinarily, if I'm reading music at all, it's usually standard notation, which is part of the problem because the fingers have long since trained themselves to equating a certain black spot on a staff with a specific place on the fretboard, irrespective of what the key signature says.

[Beanzy]

Rather than letting the 1st / 6th fret issue be a stumbling block, it can be better just to play in 2nd position and let everything fall more easily under the fingers in the old familiar patterns you know from other keys. You can even use 1/2 positions if necessary.
This is where for the o.p. not using tab will help.

[John Kelly]

Have you thought about a capo for those tunes in the keys you are finding difficult? You say your fingers have absorbed the noted from long playing in open keys, so by capoing you can use the same fingering: Tunes you play in D capoed at 1st fret would let you play in Eb, and at 2nd you'll play in E; tunes in A capoed at 1 give you Bb and at 2 give you B.

you say in your post that Ordinarily, if I'm reading music at all, it's usually standard notation, which is part of the problem because the fingers have long since trained themselves to equating a certain black spot on a staff with a specific place on the fretboard, irrespective of what the key signature says. You have identified a big part of your problem in that you have a fixed idea now of what a note is on the staff but not taking notice of the all-important key signature. Also, any specific note on the staff can be found at more than one place on your fretboard - TAB tends to make folk play exactly where the tab tells them, though it may well be better to play in a different fingering for any particular tune.

[Shelagh Moore]

Whoa John... you're opening a can of worms there! I agree though... I can play in B or any other key but my playing pleasure is much enhanced, and I can get the phrasing I want, often by using a capo. I await the "police"!

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

Yeah, if you are playing bluegrass you don't capo a mandolin unless you don't mind all of the bluegrass players smirking and wanting to not play with you. Playing in B and Bb are always one of the difficult things to really get down. Its an issue of having the same speed, smoothness and flow one gets in keys with more open strings. It is a process for everyone who gets into bluegrass. Especially Bb. B comes much easier with practice so start there as the techniques are similar for B abd Bb. Bb is always tough comparably. The answer is to transcribe lots of songs from other players in those keys and play with the tracks. Then work on your closed position playing by learning your arpeggios for the I, IV, V chords first all over the fret board (Then add II, III, b7 chords as well) and learn your arpeggio based double stops in each of the main chords in each of those keys too.

[swampstomper]

A pro player once told me "your first finger is your capo" for transposing tunes with open strings to keys one, two... frets higher. The 2/3/4 fingers do what the 1/2/3 would do with open strings. Try to play Arkansas Traveller in Eb... same as in D but with your 1st finger anchored to the 1st fret on the D or A string as needed. Your pinky will get quite a workout and you will need to strengthen it if you don't use it much already.

The only difficulty is if you use your 4th finger already in the tunes. For example in Durham's Bull in A it's common to use the 4th finger to get the E (4th string) and A (3rd string) notes in the A part. In many Monroe tunes in G the 4th finger catches the B note (7th fret) on the 1st string. For the first case you will need to get the note where it would have been open in A, that is, on the next string up, this involves string crossing (to avoid this is why the 7th fret on the same string was used in A). For the 2nd case there is no remedy but to make a quick shift up.

HTH

[John Flynn]

Atlanta Mando Mike: I hope you are joking. Below is a video of Ricky Skaggs doing a bluegrass-style break backing Gillian Welch. He has a capo on the fifth fret and OMG, he is playing an oval hole! This from a guy who was discovered by, and mentored by, Bill Monroe himself and in his own right has 14 Grammys, 5 of them for "Best Bluegrass Album" and 14 IBMA awards. I have not seen a backlash from the BG community over this YouTube transgression and I imagine if Ricky showed up to any BG jam, he would still be most welcome. I would not use a capo in BG jam, but only because for BG, there is no need to. BG can be very, very challenging to play well due to the speed, the phrasing and the embellishments, but it is straightforward: Not a lot of accidentals, mostly 1-4-5 major chords to improvise over, etc. But if I saw a newbie shunned for using a capo by a BG jam, I would be walking out right behind him.

Back to the OP, FrDNicholas, I think the "free resource" is just to learn the closed scales and then for each key you want to learn, get clear on what finger is playing what note on the scale. And here's a mind-bender: In that perspective, the keys of B and Bb are the same. Whoa! How can that be? In both keys, if I see a lower B on the notation, it's alway my first finger on the 4th string. It's just that In Bb, that first finger is in position on the 3rd fret and in B it's positioned on the 4th. But once I'm in that position, a C is always my second finger two frets up in the box pattern, a D is always my third finger two more frets up and the E is my fourth finger one fret up, and so on with the 3rd string. The same thing happens with the relationship of Eb and E and lots of other pairs of keys.

Another key-to-key relationship that helps me is keys on adjacent strings. I used to play a lot in F. Then I realized Bb is the same pattern as F, moved from starting on the 3rd string to starting on the 4th string. And I use the same fingers for the same notes in both keys, the only slight difference being there is one note in the scale that is plus or minus one fret, the E vs. the Eb. So by noticing the similarities of another key to a key I already know, I am just learning differences, not starting over.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx3ej4ewkKw

[JeffD]

Yeah, if you are playing bluegrass you don't capo a mandolin unless you don't mind all of the bluegrass players smirking and wanting to not play with you. .

While capo used in this way is a kind of short cut, if you can really kick it with the capo, I am not sure anyone minds.


My view is to get really good at playing in those keys, with a capo if you have to, or not, by constant practice and finding tunes in those keys so beautiful you are compelled to do them well.

If you get real good with a capo, then get a bright florescent one they can't help but notice, and get them to promise not to play with you if that is there decision.

People.

[onassis]

IMHO, the easiest approach to getting better at B and Bb (and Ab, F#, C#, and any other "weird" key) is to get comfortable playing out of closed positions. No open strings. And, IMHO, the easiest way to get comfortable with closed positions is to get up close and personal with double stops. Once you wrap your mind around how the double stops of a chord lead into one another and tie into the other chords of the key, then odd keys lose their fear factor.

[Mark Gunter]

I can play the major scales in these keys, not so familiar with the pentatonic, although I could figure them out.

Find the roots and become familiar with them. Learn some patterns starting with index finger on root.

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Maybe practice a simple I - IV - V - I chord pattern and move into the pentatonic scales from the chord shapes. Here's my favorite version of the Bb chord progression to start out with:

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[Mark Gunter]

Look at the red boxes in this fretboard diagram. Learn the five notes pattern inside the red box. Noodle with just these five notes along with your favorite tunes in Bb Major key. (Any artist will tell you about the benefits of learning to work with a limited pallette while painting a picture.)

1. Beginning with index finger on the root note, this pattern for major pentatonic works for any key. You never have to move the index finger to reach all five of these notes.

2. Once you are comfortable with the five note pattern (won't take long), start moving to the other notes of the scale in the vicinity, you'll easily remember where the root notes are located in the pattern and your index finger is free; it will return home easily enough. Again, the patterns you use can be moved to any key by starting with your index finger on whatever note you choose to play any major key.

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[Mark Gunter]

Here are the arpeggio notes for the I, IV, V chords in the key of Bb. The red boxes indicate the common arpeggio pattern used when starting with index finger on the root note of each chord.

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All the above material / suggestions are only suggestions to help you get started. There are other patterns to learn besides these that start with index finger, there other ways to build the chords, there are other chords & arpeggios to consider, etc. etc. but maybe some of this can help you get a handle on ideas for playing in Bb (and one fret up, in B)

[DavidKOS]

IMHO, the easiest approach to getting better at B and Bb (and Ab, F#, C#, and any other "weird" key) is to get comfortable playing out of closed positions. No open strings. .

Using the "no open strings" scale patterns will help greatly in this, too.

This issue of playing in various keys seems to be more of an issue in the BG world than in the jazz world - I guess a lot of us jazz players grew up playing in "horn keys".

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

John Flynn,
I'm not joking. Skaggs isn't playing bluegrass there, Gillian's music is really like old time music. And that video is probably before Skaggs' bluegrass resurgence at the end of his country star days. Thus the oval hole mandolin. I'm not saying there isn't a place for a capo. If you want to have an open sound in a non open key, then you use a capo. Country, old time, anything else, fine. I used a capo when I toured with a big name country act because that is what they wanted.

[AlanN]

Lots of good advice here. B, Bb - keys you don't see much of outside the grass....

With a nod to Dave Peters, here is Sam Bush playing in the key of F. Note the section over the Bb chord, in particular the closed up/down lick in bar5 (counting after double lines). Practicing this pattern can help tremendously.

[JeffD]

"Unlocking" different keys means different things to different people, I think.

Some might see it as being able to play new tunes in Bb. Others might see it as being able to move tunes they know into Bb. Still others are looking to be able to back up a tune played in Bb. And lastly, being able to improvise in Bb.

It would be great to do all of the above, but I find that my approach to each of those tasks is different.

I find the first task the hardest. For me it is easier to learn a new tune in Bb than in B. And I don't know another way than to just power through it, note by note.

Planxty Wilkenson and Planxty Drew are a couple of great tunes in Bb I learned from Scottish fiddler Johnny Cunningham's album "Fair Warning". They are O'Carolan tunes, likely available lots of places. The version in O'Neills (the big yellow book), is the one I like the most. these two tunes are so addictive and beautiful I would have tried to swim across the river to learn them. Really my introduction to playing in Bb.

Moving tunes I already know well into another key is a little bit easier. To the extent they are closed tunes they can be moved just about anywhere, and then I rely heavily on my ear to know where to go for the rest. Takes a fair amount of work before hand to make it smooth, so I don't do well if the key change is spontaneous.

My back up skills consist of a collection of closed form three note chord and two note double stop moveable patterns. A simple straightforward nothing special backup, in any key is the same as in any other key. Sometimes (I admit) I might not even know what key I am backing in. Just the closed patterns for I, IV, and V. Its not inspired, but it is "something useful" I can do in every key.

The hardest for me is the improvising. I hardly do it well in G or C. My approach would be to just do the simple backup of closed form moveable patterns, in B say, until my fingers got used to the neighborhood, and, somehow, they start to make not inappropriate excursions from there.

So guess my point is I would use any of the above to be able to do what I needed in the key I had to do it in, without going about "learning to play" in the key.

I hope that helps.

[farmerjones]

I read this thread twice searching for "FFcF" or "FFcP." Playing in B or Bb, or any closed key, even like low A, or E, I suggest Jazzmando.com.

[Ky Slim]

This lesson is free 10 Licks in B (http://www.mandolincafe.com/licks.html)


Something I like about playing in Bb in open position is that the 3rd of the scale is the open D string. This allows for easy bluesy sounding licks by playing the 6th fret on the G string then playing the open D string or sliding into the unison Ds. (Kind of like playing in C on the A and E strings..)

[Mark Gunter]

This lesson is free 10 Licks in B (http://www.mandolincafe.com/licks.html)

Yeah Ky, that lesson from Scott is the first thing I thought of when I saw this thread, but OP said "no TABs". He really wasn't specific about just what kind of free lessons he's looking for, but he did write, "suggestions as to learning to improvise in these keys. I can play the major scales in these keys, not so familiar with the pentatonic."

In my mind, learn the pentatonic patterns (as well, the arpeggio patterns) in closed position and you're good to go in any key. The ones I shared in diagrams above show the keys of B and Bb as was called for, but can be mastered then moved around in any key. It's a bit tough for me to recommend lessons with no tablature, because I make constant use of tablature myself.

[Kevin Winn]

Play the arpeggios, major, minor, 7th. Start them on each chord tone, and use different starting fingers. Play the arpeggios in sequence to a song. All kinds of melodies will become available. In your spare time you can add the arpeggios for all scale tones beyond the chord tones. Lots more notes become available.

Not to state the obvious, as I'm still a novice myself, but this seems like a good approach to learning any key, correct?