How Do You Fairly Evaluate a New Mando?

[jmkatcher]

The description is a little exaggerated, but I just returned from my great local mandolin dealer (Dusty Strings in Seattle) with a weird insight.

It's not like none of the new instruments don't speak to me. It's that they speak thinly and softly. It's very difficult for me to evaluate a non-broken-in instrument fairly. Even the best instruments seem far from satisfactory. It makes me think that the only instruments I can fairly judge are the used ones. I like to think I can trust someone like Collings to build a good mandolin (duh), but it's hard to make the leap of faith when I play a fresh one and dislike what I hear. I've thought about commissioning a new one from a luthier, but have the same doubts.

My current instrument was built in 2002, bought used by me, and played daily. It was rich sounding when I bought it and is my benchmark for judging other instruments. I know that beautiful well-made instruments are available, but it seems like it will take a year or so of hard playing before I can be sure that it's "the one".

Am I completely wacky here?

[John Flynn]

If you are here, on this site, then yes, you may be completely whacky. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

That aside, I think you have to go with your gut. It sounds like you are oriented to buying good, broken-in instruments, so you should look in that direction. There is some great stuff at great prices in that category.

Me, I like 'em new. My feeling is if they "speak to me" new, they will just get better and that journey of improvement is part of the buying experience for me. Also, I think there is some great stuff being made today that isn't always available used. I am interested in what brands you were playing, because there are some I have never liked new, such as Weber. But my Rigel sounded pretty good right out of the box and gradually got better over time. My Old Wave sounded good right away and improved rapidly. I like Breedloves new. I have also played some big name instruments that were well broken in that I was not impressed with. For instance, I did a side-be-side between a well broken-in Gilchrist and a brand new Collings MF5 and I liked the Collings better. But all this mando buying is about going with what you like that you can afford. There is no universal right or wrong.

[Professor PT]

I would agree. For years, I tried all sorts of mandolins and couldn't really discern an appreciable difference between the five grand Webers and the MK I had. Then I played a Gibson F-9; I knew right then that it was a big step up in tone for me. Notice I say "me." You'll know it when you hear it. A few months back, I played everything they had in stock at Buffalo Brothers here in San Diego; the only ones that spoke to me on the same level were the Collings mandolins. Most of them just seem to "have it" from the start. As for Gibson, I can only vouch for my F-9 since it's the only new Gibson I've played. Doesn't Dusty Strings carry some new Gibsons, or are they not a dealer any more?

[jmkatcher]

I really didn't mean to use this topic as a platform to knock any vendor. It's more to air my probably ridiculous theory about breaking-in archtop instruments.

Today, I played:
Weber Yellowstone
Weber Absaroka
Collings MF
Eastman 614? Oval-hole (really didn't like this one)
Gibson H-1 - a nice reference instrument
a new luthier's work (who I won't name)

The new one is interesting as I've tried three of his instruments. An A5 last visit was the nicest sounding instrument in the shop, but I couldn't get past the severe fit-and-finish issues that they all possessed.

My favorite of their older stock was an MF5 that they'd had around for a while and a Weber Sage OM flattop that was terrific.

I should add that I do prefer purchasing new, hence my torn feeling about this issue.

[legendarytones]

My comment on this is the ones I've seen that sounded " thin ", will always sound that way. To me a mandolin has either got it or it don't from the start. The ones that sound good new, will just keep getting better. The ones that don't have it as new, will never have it.

[Chris Baird]

I agree, a good mandolin is good from the start and just gets better. The break-in is real, but it is not a miracle and won't turn a bad mandolin into a good one. If you play enough new instruments you will eventually be able to tell the difference between the "new tight tone" and just plain bad tone. A mandolin strung up and played for a couple weeks will show it's true character. To my ear, a mandolin only sounds bad due to newness in the first 4-5 days, after that it should sound good or the mandolin is never going to.

[legendarytones]

That is right Chris, and that goes for all of them no matter what name is inlaid in the headstock, those that don't cost so much, and those that do.

[meskalito]

"My comment on this is the ones I've seen that sounded 'thin', will always sound that way. To me a mandolin has either got it or it don't from the start. The ones that sound good new, will just keep getting better. The ones that don't have it as new, will never have it."

I agree. And the same thing goes for picking. As Norman Blake says, you can either play or you can't.

[Chris Baird]

"I agree. And the same thing goes for picking. As Norman Blake says, you can either play or you can't."

That may be true but for my own sake I cetainly hope not!

[Kbone]

I agree that it should sound good out of the box,but make sure it has good strings and a good setup, that my friend can change the sound mucho. My Eastman has J74's, on probably close to six weeks and the tone is at it's best right now, so I'm getting a real woody tone with some sweetness - sounds like a good wine http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif right...

[jmkatcher]

"I agree. And the same thing goes for picking. As Norman Blake says, you can either play or you can't."

I can't say I can agree with that. At some point none of us could play, and while we're not all at the same level, most of us can play well enough to derive pleasure from it. Perhaps the statement should be "you're either Norman Blake or you're not" instead.

[Don Christy]

My comment on this is the ones I've seen that sounded " thin ", will always sound that way. To me a mandolin has either got it or it don't from the start. The ones that sound good new, will just keep getting better. The ones that don't have it as new, will never have it.

That's probably true - IF the mando has a good setup. I bought my first mandolin (Michael Kelly) mail order from Elderly and it didn't have a professional setup. I played it for over a year and always thought it had a very thin weak sound. Three weeks ago I had a luthier check it out. He fit the bridge to the top and adjusted the action. It sounds really good now. After I had the work done, I had a lesson at a dealer that sells MK's. The instructor said it was the best sounding Michael Kelly he'd ever heard.

I just received my second mando, a new custom mando from a small builder (Silver Angel by Ken Ratcliff). I think it sounds great, but right now the MK sounds as good (maybe a little better). I notice the SA bridge doesn't perfectly fit and the intonation isn't perfect, so it needs a better setup. I suspect it will vastly improve when I get the right steup.

Bottom line is that it seems many of the mandos that you play in a store, especially less expensive mandos, are not setup well and this really impacts the sound.

Next time you're playing mandos in a store, look at the fit of the bridge and check the intonation. If it's not right, it's not a very fair fight.

Don

[legendarytones]

Don you are correct on that. But I might add, I've seen some very expensive mandolins new in the store that the bridge was not fitting the top, nor was the intonation correct on them. That is something that all of us as mandolin pickers and consumers should expect in my opinion, is that all of that set-up work should be done and finished on them before they leave the luthiers hands to be sold.

[legendarytones]

I would also like to add that I've seen several mandolins that the bridge was not exactly fitting the top, but still had the right "pop". When you get one like that, you think to ytourself, oh yea, I can get a piece of sandpaper and make this one really come alive.

[jmkatcher]

I do expect a decent setup as a part of sales. Especially if I'm buying an instrument mail-order...in a 48 hour eval period, if it's not right you just have to send it back. It makes me wonder how many failed evals are due more to a lousy setup than anything fundamental with the instrument.

[Don Christy]

One complication of buying mail order or from a builder if it has to be shipped is that the strings are typically detuned for shipping. This can potentially allow the bridge to move. In my case on the SA i brought the strings up to pitch and the intonation was a little off. It seems like the bridge didn't so much slide as it rotated a bit. I adjusted and that small change made a big difference.
Don

[fatt-dad]

You don't buy boots that give you blisters, hoping that they'll be better when they "break in". They will feel better in time, but who wants sore feet?

Mandolin - it's like that.

f-d

p.s., Oh, and yes, your nuts.

[Lee]

Good analogy Fatt-Dad; i don't care how "good" the boot is if it hurts walking around the store!
I've had a few mando's that the bridge didn't fit right up snug all over with the mando top. To me it's the most important aspect of a good set-up to achieve good tone. If this is bad, even a good mando might well sound bad.
Rip a small slip of paper from a string envelope and sneak it all around the bridge base to find if there's any place it can slip between the bridge and mando-top.

[stevem]

Rip a small slip of paper from a string envelope and sneak it all around the bridge base to find if there's any place it can slip between the bridge and mando-top.
Is the bridge supposed to have a little spacing right at the center? Or is it supposed to have full contact everywhere?

[mikeyes]

The last two mandolins I bought "spoke" to me, no question. If a new mandolin has the sound you are looking for, get it, it will only get better. If the mandolin is tinny, don't get it, the right one will show up if you look at enough.

I mentioned the last two mandolins (a Fern V and a Weber Bighorn, and I am minus a lot of very good instruments in trade) were result of casual looking at mandolins. The Fern V was simply the best mandolin I had ever played (and could afford) and I only played it to get the salesman off of my back. I played all the signature Gibsons in the store and did not think they were any better than the mandolins I already had. To get him to leave me alone, I asked if he had a MM knowing they didn't and he pulled out the Fern V instead. I was so impressed that my wife bought it for me!

The Weber was supposed to be a $600 dollar Eastman, basically a throwdown mandolin for Irish bars, but I kept playing mandolins until it was obvious that the Bighorn had the mojo I wanted at four times the price. Goodbye Whyte Laydie and goodbye Gibson Tenor guitar <G>

But the one that spoke to me the most was my first F model, an F5L made in 1987 by Jim Triggs when he was at Gibson. I was in Gruhn Guitars looking for an F5 and I was presented with this instrument, another Gibson (this was the day before the move to Bozeman, basically, in Jan 1988), a Gilchrist, several used F5s and a Loar. (The Loar was around $7000 if I remember, I know kick yourself but I didn't have the cash.) I played all the instruments but practicality (and my wife) dictated a modern Gibson. The Triggs mandolin had it. The sound was there even though the finish was still off-gassing. The other F5L/F5s did not have the sound. I later learned that the two 1987 instruments were made in different ways, the Triggs more like today's instruments, and of course Jim Triggs is one of the best mandolin luthiers out there. So my gut feeling and the sound made all the difference. I have learned to trust it as a result of that purchase.

Of course now I have not got the time to play all of my MAS induced instruments but I try anyway (I have one other very good mandolin.) I think that you can't go wrong buying the one that says "buy me" when you pick it up and play.

[Lee]

Steve, bridges come with either two feet, or full contact across the entire bridge base. So I'm not sure what you mean by "a little spacing right at the center".
Wherever it's supposed to be touching, it should be 100% flush so not even a slip of paper can squeeze in there.

[Bob A]

OK, I freely admit that, in my life, I have bought maybe as many as four new instruments. Two of them were when I was very young, and two were within the last couple years. Meanwhile, I accumulated a pile if used and vintage toys.

Every one of the old ones was different, every one "spoke to me", and every one brought something of its previous owners along. I am not a heavy-handed player, but I got a beater of an old Gibson LG2 from about 1950, needing brqace reglue, tuners and bridge repair, with half the top abraded away from pickwear - obviously the last owner was a heavy picker. I fought it, but the guitar taught me that if I wanted it to sing, I HAD to whomp on it. And of course, sometimes you must do just that.

I bought a nearly unplayed A2Z, because it just blew the doors off my F4, but even though it has a lot going for it, it never quite had the spark. I'm sure it's because it wasn't played musch in the 75 or so years before I got it.

The two latest newbies: a Hodson Djangolin, because of all the buzz on the board when they first came out, and a Greek bowlback, picked out by a knowledgeable mandolinist friend from the maker in Athens. I'd asked him for a cheap representative example of Greek mandolins, and the one he came home with is an excellent instrument.

But for the most part, my heart is with the old and well-used. I'm not so young that I have the time to break in many new instruments, and I'm at the point in life when it's easy to commune with the ghosts of old players; whether there's any basis for my fantasies I know, but I cannot say.

[mandolooter]

This sez it all...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I agree, a good mandolin is good from the start and just gets better. The break-in is real, but it is not a miracle and won't turn a bad mandolin into a good one. If you play enough new instruments you will eventually be able to tell the difference between the "new tight tone" and just plain bad tone. A mandolin strung up and played for a couple weeks will show it's true character. To my ear, a mandolin only sounds bad due to newness in the first 4-5 days, after that it should sound good or the mandolin is never going to."

[wallflower]

Mikeyes-

Your comment about the 1987 F5L is very interesting. #I know a guy that has a well played '87 F5L and that thing has "the" sound. #He says it was one of the last made (what that means I'm not sure). #It is a killer mandolin. #It doesn't sound like a typical 80's Gibson, it sounds like an old Gibson F5.

I wonder what type of wood Gibson was using for those mandolins back then. #And I wonder what construction specs were being used. #Any ideas?

[SternART]

You know I played a NEW mando by one of the very visable luthiers here on the Cafe at Wintergrass two years ago.....it was tight & I thought.....what is all the buzz about, that mando ain't all that.....ONE year later, same mando had been played for a year & it ROCKED!!! Red spruce especially needs played in a bit.....no mando before its time. Some DO get better with play......a LOT better!

[Greg H.]

I think my experience echos most of the others here. Play as many instruments as you can until you find the one you can't willingly put down. My last mandolin purchase was one I bought/bartered from Charles Johnson (Rattlesnake F5) and I ended up sitting on his couch playing it until my wife had to say "It's dinner time, the kids are hungry, buy the $%^& thing and let's go!"

[Martin Jonas]

Although I would agree that it's a bad idea to buy a new mandolin that doesn't speak to you, it's worth keeping in mind that even the best mandolin in the world can sound terrible if it's not tuned right. Mandolin tone is incredibly sensitive to the two strings of each course not being in unison. When strings start beating, the tone goes away. Bringing a tuner along to a tryout is a really good idea!

Martin

[jmkatcher]

The first thing I do when trying a new instrument is to pick each pair in turn. My pitch is OK enough that I can tell if it's close to being in tune, and whether the pairs match.

[mikeyes]

Wallflower,

Most of the pre-Bozeman instruments were made with a one piece neck (meaning that the fingerboard extension support was not a separate piece) and with other differences between the more Loarish ones made today. The Montana instruments were made entirely differently and there are several threads (esp from Joe Vest) indicating that.
The one I have was the last one made in Nashville (this according to George Gruhn who sold it to me) before they swithed to Bozeman in 1988. According to jim Triggs it was made much like the ones that are made now as he was in the process of learning a lot about Loars and was trying to incorporate what he learned into making mandolins. He made about a dozen mandolins for Gibson including some of the custom made ones (I lied about no mandolins being made in Nashville after the switch, the custom shop still made them on occasion) and they were his babies and made the way he wanted them. Ask your friend to look at the label and see who signed it.

Mine is a very good instrument, more like a Fern than a Loar F5 in sound, loud, and full. I just had it set up again and it is sounding better than ever.

[kudzugypsy]

i dont especially "like" brand new instruments either...just because i am a believer in the theory that a mandolin really starts to get its voice after the 2-5 year mark. a maker CAN build an instrument that will blow you away right off the bench, but usually, the "trick" will have negative long run problems - you just cant build 50-75 years into a green instrument. so, you have to look/listen for things in a new instrument differently than one 10+ years old.
musical instruments are weird things...you can often pick up an $800 one that will blow away a $8000 one, you just have to KNOW in your head what sound you are looking for, and when you hear it, jump on it. one person will favor the "old" sound, one the "modern"...it all differs.