Is there such a thing as a "Mandolin Culture?"

[Jim Imhoff]

I am a retired music education professor designing a study that will compare and contrast a local community bluegrass jam/class/community with a more classically oriented mandolin orchestra. I play bluegrass on a Stiver F, and orchestral music on a 1918 Gibson K2 mandocello. There are only a few of us that participate in both: there seems to be a difference in attitude and aesthetic between the two groups. There are people in both groups that also play swing, choro, and jazz.
One serious question I need to ask first is this: Other than the common instrument, is there such a thing as the mandolin culture/community/society, or are there separate, unrelated social structures for bluegrass, classical, swing... and so on?
The Mandolin Cafe seems like the perfect place to bring this question: I hope to hear from people involved in all different musical styles, but focused on the mandolin family. Opinions are fine, but I would be especially interested in comments offering some evidence and thoughtful support, and especially from people who participate in more than one musical style.
Thanks,
The Doctor

[Charlieshafer]

From my experience, both sides of your question are true, and I find it true for different instruments as well. You'll find there are people who only play bluegrass, or jazz, or classical, and will only attend those concerts or festivals. At the same time, you'll find, especially on this forum, people who are passionate about the mandolin family, and play all sorts of music. I fall into the latter category, personally.

If you need evidence, as I also present concerts, I find that the audiences fall into a Venn diagram arrangement. I have about 60 regulars who come to everything. I also have another 60-70 who will only come to certain types of music, and I can absolutely predict who will reserve for what show. There's the bluegrass crowd. The gypsy jazz crowd. The classical crowd, and then the "alternative strings" crowd. But, out of about 600 active people on the mailing list, only that 60 will come to everything, regardless of style.

Talking to the musicians gives the same results. Some, like a Tony Trischka, a Darol Anger, or Joe Brent will talk jazz or classical all day long, and then that night lay down some hot traditional bluegrass licks. Others who grew up strictly in one tradition, aren't terribly aware of what's going on elsewhere.

In short, you'll find all types here, even those who switch from a regular mandolin to an electric, as heck, we all want to rock out at some point.

Overall though, I'm thing that even though most mandolin players here play different styles themselves, when they do go to a certain session or jam, that event itself will be quite rigid in what gets played. Musicians will move between the communities, but the individual communities can be pretty rigid. In any event, every high functioning group or jam or session will look for equally high levels of precision in the participants.

[mrmando]

There are multiple ways of looking at this.

Within the classical mandolin category, there's a division between players who prefer solo or small ensemble repertoire and those who will also join an orchestra.

A few players who are interested in bluegrass, choro, jazz, et al. will also dip their toes in the orchestra pool. I don't think the majority of them stick around, however.

I think the fundamental division, however, is between (1) players who are more comfortable reading music in standard notation and (2) those who are more comfortable playing by ear or from tabs. If, like me, you grow up reading music and not getting sufficient ear training, you'll be limited in the type of mandolin music available to you. Yeah, you can learn fiddle tunes out of a book, but what happens in the jam when someone calls a tune you don't know? Classical music may appeal to you because everything is notated for you.

After I picked up the mandolin in college, I managed to develop enough of an ear to play a number of non-notated styles, so I'm at home in other settings besides an orchestra. I don't think this is true for most of the other people in my orchestra.

[Woodrow Wilson]

I think that it's more of a community than a culture... various communities, geared towards specific interests. I think when I use the word culture, I tend to not limit to a given instrument but rather the varying styles. There's a culture of bluegrass festival goers, there's a culture of classical music, there's an acoustic music culture (all with overlaps) but I don't see them restricted to a specific instrument. The only culture that really sticks out to me, within the larger group of musicians, are the guys that love sawdust and solder and don't just play.

[Luna Pick]

I think that any art form that brings people together often creates its own community, with the culture defined by each of the independent sets of interactions that occur throughout the community.

[JeffD]

One serious question I need to ask first is this: Other than the common instrument, is there such a thing as the mandolin culture/community/society, or are there separate, unrelated social structures for bluegrass, classical, swing... and so on?

I would say yes there is a mandolin community and yes there are social groups for genres. Also for the different ways of participating - jammers / performers / composers.

And of course builders and those into the sound equipment for stage performance or recording. Two strong groups one may or may not feel part of.

I don't know why there cannot be many axes of community.

I feel an affinity for other mandolinners, whether my genres of music or not, or whether they perform or not, just in what they do, and how, and what equipment they use, and how they have solved common problems. But I also feel an affinity for others who play the music I do, what ever the instrument, what tunes do they know, and what versions, and how do they learn new tunes. And also others who jam more than perform, whether mandolin or not.

More importantly, I think I am more typical than not in this. I suspect (without extensive evidence and no research) that most people feel this way.

I think the thing that makes community, as much as anything else, is shared trauma, shared troubles, shared anxieties. All of those who learn to play mandolin go through roughly the same feelings of confidence and its absence, struggle and triumph. All of those who jam, on whatever instrument, have shared trauma of the first few times, of not being prepared, and the triumph of "killing it" at a jam.

Those we share a trauma with or whose anxieties we can relate to, or those with which we feel kinship and make community.

[Mark Gunter]

Other than the common instrument, is there such a thing as the mandolin culture/community/society, or are there separate, unrelated social structures for bluegrass, classical, swing... and so on?

Doctor, I find it tough to understand elements of your question. There is a mandolin culture/community/society that shares a great deal of history but not "other than the common instrument". They are all human beings with an interest in a common instrument, which is why you would describe them as "the mandolin culture/community/society". Other than the common instrument, I find it very difficult to make sense of your question and its terms. Perhaps you could clarify your question?

The second part, "or are there separate, unrelated social structures for bluegrass, classical, swing... and so on?" should be self evident. There are obviously "separate, unrelated social structures for bluegrass, classical, swing... and so on" separated from the mandolin.

Think of the violin. Violinists and fiddlers have a common culture and history related to the instrument they play.

Edit: I suppose that, apart from the instrument, they would have a common interest in music itself and thus belong to the culture/community/society of musicians, or music lovers.

[Jim Imhoff]

There have been scholarly studies of people who cross the fiddle/violin lines, and have detailed their experiences both musically and socially. What I am really getting at is there any thread other than the mandolin (or any shared instrument) that connects players of different genres. And researchers are always digging into questions that seem obvious, some times shedding new light and surprises, sometimes just reaffirming common conceptions. I supervise doctoral level research and my students come up with such material all the time. Yes, the common thread of music lovers, but within that extremely broad population are sub-groups, as one of my responders noted, like "Venn diagrams," overlapping. Does a shared instrument (mando, piano, guitar, any) constitute such a sub-group?
Apart from this, I am interested in the attitudes and goals of people who engage in the different genres. Community Music researchers call these "Participatory" vs. "Presentational"-- loosely, in it for just the fun and community, or geared toward serious performance. But as I study and write about them, do I look at them as completely different groups, or factions within a larger population...?
And by the way, on the surface I completely agree with your description of the scene, and I think you do understand better than you seem to think you do. But I want to hear what others say: That is the nature of research. Thanks for your thoughts.

[Jim Imhoff]

As expected I see a variety of thoughts on my rather odd question. Maybe the people I am really interested in are the ones who play in different genres, how the experiences change (or not) in the different settings. I am aware of the very very obvious factors--notation vs. aural traditions, conducted rehearsals vs. jams, polished performances vs. open mics and such. There is a body of research on community musical groups that investigates such questions, digging beneath those obvious factors and looking for common threads as well as stark differences.
Already you have given me interesting perspectives and ideas beyond a "Yes/No" dichotomy--Venn diagrams, solo vs. group, jam vs. concert and so on, some of which will be part of my discussion in the study.
What I am looking for in this Cafe post is not "the answer" by any means; rather, how people respond to the question in different ways. I appreciate your consideration(s) and might contact some of you for permission to quote in the paper I will eventually write.
By the way, the question of "Is there a..." will not be the subject of my study; that is just a question to be addressed in the process. The answer might very well be "No," or "Yes, but..." I might or might not include that very question in my interviews and discussions, but I thought the Mandolin Cafe (which by the way IS a community centered on the instrument, not on any genre or style) would be the perfect place to throw it out there.
THANKS!

[Mark Gunter]

Thanks Doc, I do understand a few things, one is just how little I really know. But I'm not criticizing the in-depth study of things that may appear obvious, or any type of scholarly study. It may be that my thinking is limited, or my use of the language differs greatly from yours. The way you posed the question gives me a lot of trouble still. The answers that spring to mind for me are too broad to be very helpful.

Surely players of a shared instrument, regardless of genre or circumstance, would constitute a sub-group of the broad group of musicians, and probably of music lovers. Participatory vs. Presentational I would think would be difficult; I've experienced factional behavior in some musicians regarding this, but there is overlapping which I suppose would be indicative of grouping. When studying and writing about Participatory vs. Presentational you might wish to treat both aspects, factional and grouping.

It is interesting that the mandolin in a presentational setting lends itself more easily to ensemble playing than to solo performance. There are those who perform solo with mandolin and those who use mandolin as sole accompaniment for vocal arrangements, but these appear to be few and far between. Regardless of genre, mandolin seems to be best suited to performance with an ensemble.

[Tom Haywood]

Not sure I understand the question correctly, but I'll offer a couple of observations. It seems that any community and development of a culture within that community relates more to the style of music and not to the mandolin itself. Outside of this particular internet community, I see very rare gatherings of general mandolin enthusiasts based solely on playing and comparing mandolins. You can search the Cafe discussion threads for “mandolin tasting” events and get an idea of how rarely this occurs. Probably it occurs about as often as fans of the oboe gather together to discuss and compare their instruments. On the other hand, the very fact that there is a Mandolin Cafe demonstrates that there is a fairly large and active community based around the instrument. Within this community certain cultural divisions show up, such as a pretty bright dividing line between some of the bluegrassers and everybody else, or between those who play by ear or by reading notation only and those who don't, or in the builders forum between those who hang their hat on scientific principles only and those who hang their hat in many places. Regardless of all that, folks who play mandolin all have a need for occasional set up and repair work, for advice on improving their playing ability, and sometimes for advice in buying another mandolin. I would say that defines a fairly loose-knit community that has a lot of passion for the instrument but not much of an agreed upon culture.

[CarlM]

A couple of thoughts here.

A series of questions to ask would be: How many people play just the mandolin and no other instruments? How many play mandolin as their primary instrument vs secondary? How many learned mandolin first then went to other instruments vs how many started on other instruments?

Talking about a mandolin culture is complicated by the fact that probably most people here play multiple instruments.

It could be looked at from the viewpoint of mandolin orchestras, such few as are left today. That concept would have been more interesting to look at in the mandolin heyday around the turn of the twentieth century.

As far as musical styles go, I think most people would love to be proficient at a bunch of styles but there are not enough hours in a lifetime to master them all let alone on multiple instruments. Music is such a big field no one person can grasp it all.

[Andy Hatfield]

No

[Ron McMillan]

I admire the spirit of the research but, while I cannot offer anything evidence-based to back up my view, I am doubtful about any meaningful cross-genre culture other than a (sometimes) shared interest.

The majority of the people on the Cafe come from a bluegrass background, and while I admire and enjoy bluegrass, I certainly do not think it is the only meaningful form of mandolin music. However, the moment anyone dares to question that genre's right to sit at the top of the mandolin music tree, its defenders come out in droves. I love the instrument and enjoy its use in multiple music genres, but despair of the tendency to criticise anyone who dares to cross boundaries with the mandolin. The most glaring case in point being the work of one of the few true genius players, Chris Thile, who routinely gets panned for everything from his hairstyle to his clothing to the way he moves around when he is playing - by guys who quite possibly struggle when a song moves out of G-C-D.

But of course that's simply human nature. I don't inhabit electric guitar fora, but I bet people there are also quick to pour scorn on the genius they choose to dislike. It's a community, Doc, but one with bumps and divides.

[Peter Coronado]

Thanks to Doc James for the interesting question. I play in both bluegrass and mandolin orchestra settings. Playing by ear and improvisation is prevalent in bluegrass. Playing and following a score in standard notation is the norm for the orchestra setting. Bluegrass musicians usually play without any written music so memorization is common. These would be cultural differences, IMO. Both certainly call for a high skill level on the same instrument, though that brings in the issues of F vs. A, F holes vs oval, carved tops and backs vs bowlbacks and so on.

The repertoire is certainly different though crossovers do occur such as a bluegrass band playing the occasional piece by Bach or an orchestra doing a medley of fiddle tunes. As already mentioned, players such a Thile, Trischka, Anger, Fleck and so on certainly crossover.

I've had a thought experiment go through my head from time-to-time. If I had to choose between 1) playing mandolin in any setting except bluegrass, or 2) playing any other instrument in a bluegrass setting, which would it be? For me it would be choice 1, playing mandolin. But I suspect, at least in the U.S., there are many whose love of bluegrass is dominant. Thank goodness no such choice has to be made!

It seems to me in the early 20th century there may have been more of a mandolin culture when there were school clubs and many more mandolin-oriented ensembles.

[Bill McCall]

just asking, you're a member of both groups. How do you control for objectivity and observational bias?

Would it be more useful to describe more fully the groups you are describing to allow folks more insight?

[foldedpath]

When I think of "(Instrument name) Culture" I can't help but think of things like Ukulele orchestras or hand drum circles.

We have both of those in my town. Groups of amateur musicians, mainly on a beginner level, who have glommed onto a somewhat offbeat instrument and participate in these gatherings as a kind of support group. It's not about genre, it's about playing THAT instrument.

Of course we used to have that back in the 20's with mandolin orchestras. :grin:

But these days, I think mandolin has spread out into wider acceptance and integration in various music genres. When you get deep into a given genre of music, people aren't asking you what your instrument is, assuming it fits within the accepted range for that style of music.

My personal thing in recent years is Irish/Scottish and related traditional music. People in the groups I hang with don't care what I have in my hand. It could be a mandolin, an octave mandolin, a flute, or a guitar (all of which I play, for better or worse). They just want to know if I can play the music. Mandolin is just a tool to get there.

[Billy Packard]

Doc, I'm skipping ahead here...

You are trying to explain what riding a bicycle is and posing it a a question.

As a researcher you should be asking process questions not product questions.

You are trying to explain the complexities of overlaying a minor 13, 4 chord over a diminished 2 chord as a question.

The question needs to be posed IN an enviroment where you can observe it.

[Denman John]

I would suggest adding the internet, and the mandolincafe more specifically, to be included in "mandolin community". Communities and cultures, like many things, change and evolve over time. With the advent of the internet, our community(s) has changed the way we access and use information. Set lists get e-mailed to band members, iPads on stages are not uncommon, and we now have access to online videos and lesson from people all over the world who play different styles of music that can can cross "cultural boundaries". Some players pick and choose from different genres to fulfill their musical needs and desires.

The mandolincafe here is a great representation of that. Look in the subcategories and compare the post counts between the different headings. This might lead to some insight to what the people who come here to talk about. This place is my mandolin community and I'm sure that there are other who are in the same boat. I live in a very rural area that isn't to well represented in regards to mandolins and mandolin players. When I want to talk or read about mandolins, I come here for the wealth of information (some of it taken with a grain of salt) that is now available to us.

Even in our household there are different styles of music being played by different members. I mainly play fiddle tunes / trad Irish / and classical pieces, while my sons love fast bluegrass and rock along with fiddle tunes and Gypsy Jazz. Mandolin are our main instruments, but play other instruments as well ...

Good luck with your project and I'd love to see the final paper when completed.

[Ivan Kelsall]

You could ask the very same question about Violins / Fiddles or Classical Guitars / Elec.Guitars etc............. !!. If you did a survey of 'x' number of Violinists or Elec.guitarists,you'd possibly find quite a depth of appreciation for 'the other' music.

I think that it would be quite rare to find any musician who only appreciates 'his / her' music & no other form. As musicians,most of us have a great appreciation for the skill in playing almost all instruments. We know the hours of practice & learning that we've put in & we appreciate that in others - so - musical culture ?. I wouldn't describe any of it it as a 'culture',more ''musical preferences'',each with their own set of demands / rules etc. A musician who plays more than one genre of music,will simply adopt the demands & abide by the rules of the music he plays at any given time. To me,it's like riding a bicycle & then driving a car - both are modes of transport,but have different rules & demands. I know one mandolin player in the UK who plays both Bluegrass & Classical mandolin. In each circumstance,his behaviour (& indeed his clothing) is different as he adapts to the set of circumstances that he's in - he doesn't wear jeans & Tee-shirts too often when playing Bach or a Tuxedo when playing Bluegrass !.

I understand Doc's question very well,& i also understand the reason why he asked it,but IMO,it's not so much a musical 'culture' ,as a set of circumstances in which invidivuals act accordingly = don't chew baccy whilst you're playing Bach !,:grin:
Ivan;)

[Bertram Henze]

I've had a thought experiment go through my head from time-to-time. If I had to choose between 1) playing mandolin in any setting except bluegrass, or 2) playing any other instrument in a bluegrass setting, which would it be? For me it would be choice 1, playing mandolin.

Good question and a way to find out what is coupled to what. For me, the question would be
1 - playing mandolin in any setting except ITM, or
2 - playing any other instrument in ITM
And the answer would be 2, and it's an easy one because I already play OM in ITM, and I used to play TB decades ago. Give me anything tuned in 5ths, but there is no life outside ITM.

I have had excursions into classical, but baroque only because ITM is a faster version of baroque, and under the condition that I am allowed to play it the ITM way, e.g. without sheet music, with my variations in it (or somebody else's variation - the Bach Bourree I did is Ian Anderson's version).

[demotlj]

One of the defining aspects of a "culture" or community can be its
shared language. For example, I had to think about the abbreviations in the last post to figure out their meaning (and still am not sure what ITM is, though I'm probably just being clueless). When talking about culture, I think of things outside of the instrument or music such as dress, language, behavior, and customs, in which case I would have to say that there isn't a mandolin culture but cultures distinguished by the musical genre in which that mandolin is being played at the moment.

[Charlieshafer]

There have been scholarly studies of people who cross the fiddle/violin lines, and have detailed their experiences both musically and socially. What I am really getting at is there any thread other than the mandolin (or any shared instrument) that connects players of different genres. And researchers are always digging into questions that seem obvious, some times shedding new light and surprises, sometimes just reaffirming common conceptions. I supervise doctoral level research and my students come up with such material all the time. Yes, the common thread of music lovers, but within that extremely broad population are sub-groups, as one of my responders noted, like "Venn diagrams," overlapping. Does a shared instrument (mando, piano, guitar, any) constitute such a sub-group?


Ah, ok, that makes the answer easier. Throw out the instrument played, as that confuses things. All instruments have purposes that are cross-genre in utility. As Keith Richards once said, "You can't buy a lead guitar. You can only buy a guitar, and to be a guitar player, you have to play all of it, everything it can do." and that's true of a musician. You can be a bluegrass [;ayer, or a classical player, but to be a musician, you need to be able to play it all.

Here comes the interesting part: All these sub-categories are fading away with the younger players. In speaking with and working with many of them in this area, two factors stand out as to why:

1: Bluegrass mandolin has already been done. Tommy Jarrell has been recorded and documented. Earl Scruggs may have paved the way, but now it's a super-highway. At best, in staying true to these genres for a whole career, you may add a few notes to a solo, but if you have to stay to the "true history" of any genre, you're repeating what's been done. And it's been done enough.

2: This generation hears and is exposed to everything. In 20 minutes of youtube surfing, you can catch every style of music imaginable. 15 years ago, no one remembered who Eric Dolphy was among the young guys. Now, they all not only know, but point out specific phrases from various albums. Everyone knows Blues And The Abstract Truth, Everyone knows the early Dawg recordings, everyone knows various Bach, Brahms and Sibelius pieces (as most grew up on classical lessons). I'm looking at a self-described hardscrabble old-time band, and the fiddler is using all sorts of techniques that only classical players at an advanced level would use.
No boundaries.

As far as mandolin goes, Mike Marshall started all that while working with Darol Anger and Edgar Meyer, Dawg certainly took the gypsy jazz angle and ran with it, and then it sort of percolated until the Chris Thiles and Josh Pinkhams came along, and now just about every other solo has either a Bach or Miles Davis quote in it.

Here's the best description as to what's happening from the head of the strings department at Berklee, David Wallace. He's worth a phone call, if you can get through, busy dude.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBj7xUk4ClQ&t=82s

[Bertram Henze]

...and still am not sure what ITM is...

Irish Traditional Music (open to mandolin instruments ever since Andy Irvine, but not mentioned so far in this thread)

[Frankdolin]

I do believe there's a mandolin culture/community in the sense that we all have that love of the mandolin in common. Not unlike my motorcycle life.I'm a card carrying Harley guy who also owns a much loved Triumph and I can meet a card carrying BMW rider with with his/hers totally different lifestyle and bike yet still become friends with a mutual respect with the only thing in common is the bike and love of the open road.I find the same with the mandolin as evidenced by this great site and the huge variation of people and ages with very different ideas concerning how and what style they enjoy. There's always the underlying love of the instrument itself that binds us.IMHO:mandosmiley:

[JeffD]

Another example is the RV world. There is a definite RV culture/community. There are also a lot of folks that go to bluegrass festivals and events in an RV, taking part in the bluegrass culture.

The two overlap and are not mutually exclusive. I know many of the folks at the festivals love also to show me their RV and talk trailers and campers and RVs.

[DavidKOS]

I sure find that there is a mandolin culture in terms of "the family of mandolin players", there is a sort of very loose fellowship among all of us that play the instrument.

But I also find that the "bluegrass culture" seems to heavily overlap mandolin culture and be so popular to the point that the f hole archtop mandolin is made in bulk in China.

Sometimes it's hard to tell the two apart!

[Dagger Gordon]

If there wasn't a website called Mandolin Cafe, I don't think I would have much 'mandolin culture' to speak of.

However in my own life, culture - and Scottish culture in particular - is absolutely fundamental, but this embraces much, much more than just music.
In my musical life I don't necessarily hang around with mandolin players all that much. It's much more likely to be players of other instruments.

However, I would say that the fiddle, accordion and piping worlds in Scotland probably do have their own cultures. It is largely a question of numbers, I suppose.
Having said that, I think you could possibly say that another minority instrument - the harp- has its own culture, with a Scottish Harp Festival and what seems to me to be a fairly close-knit and supportive community.

[UsuallyPickin]

We all kind of start either at or near the same place........ either we have a parent that loves music and gets us started or our own love that begins at our own time and pace. If we go about it in an organized manner it includes a teacher and lessons. This generally led to reading notation and classical pursuits. If music was approached on a more personal level recordings and jam sessions were the primary learning experiences. This led to "folk" styles which covers ground from blues to just short of jazz. In the last fifty years that I have been learning to play the learning opportunities have blossomed into a myriad of possible venues and a mountain of available material. Now any style can be learned anywhere in notation TAB or by ear. So cultures have become mixed to say the least. Musicians will always be players and people. As such they will have music they love to play and music they play either for money or because others love it and they just want to play along. Sooo IMO music is the culture not the instrument one chooses to express their love / interest. The first musician was a singer the second ...... a drummer? .....R/

[FLATROCK HILL]

...What I am really getting at is there any thread other than the mandolin (or any shared instrument) that connects players of different genres...

To this question, I would answer: "Friendships and other similar interpersonal relationships such as family".
My biggest exposure and connection to musical genres other than the ones in which I normally participate, is due to a voluntary gesture on my part.

And I'd say that the reciprocal is true also. My family and/or friends who might prefer to play Classical will, on occasion participate in the Bluegrass music I love. The thread that connects the two genres is the relationship between the musicians.

Not sure I'm giving you any satisfactory info. I'm sure though that this question and the question in the thread's title are not the same question.

[sblock]

If there wasn't a website called Mandolin Cafe, I don't think I would have much 'mandolin culture' to speak of.

However in my own life, culture - and Scottish culture in particular - is absolutely fundamental, but this embraces much, much more than just music.
In my musical life I don't necessarily hang around with mandolin players all that much. It's much more likely to be players of other instruments.

However, I would say that the fiddle, accordion and piping worlds in Scotland probably do have their own cultures. It is largely a question of numbers, I suppose.
Having said that, I think you could possibly say that another minority instrument - the harp- has its own culture, with a Scottish Harp Festival and what seems to me to be a fairly close-knit and supportive community.

I conclude from what you wrote that there may not be much of a mandolin culture over there in Scotland. But there is most certainly a lively mandolin culture on this side of the Pond! And that culture revolves chiefly around American traditional (oldtime) and bluegrass music, playing carved-back mandolins, with some American jazz and blues thrown into the mix, as well. And there is also a mandolin culture on the Continent in Europe, which includes classical traditions involving bowlback mandolins, particularly in Italy and Germany. And there is something a small mandolin culture in Ireland, as well, as the mandolin is increasingly being included in ITM ensembles. And let's not forget the bandolim culture in South America, either, and Choro music.

I disagree strongly with the proposition that there would not not much of a mandolin culture without the Mandolin Cafe. To me, this is absurd. That is not to slight the MC in any way, shape or form, nor the invaluable and enduring contributions made to our culture by the website admin, Scott Tichenor. But if the MC did not already exist, then someone else would invent something like it! The mandolin musical culture comes first, and the website second -- to support it -- and not the other way around. And together, these synergize to keep the culture alive and vibrant! But realize that there are thriving guitar and banjo and fiddle cultures, as well, here in the U.S., and each of these has its own websites, festivals, and so on.

But ultimately, "mandolin culture" revolves around ensemble playing with other instruments. That might mean in a mando orchestra, but much more often, it's in a small group with other types of instruments -- i.e., mingling with other "cultures". There are few mando soloists, after all.

[Dagger Gordon]

"I conclude from what you wrote that there may not be much of a mandolin culture over there in Scotland. "

Yes, that's true.


"I disagree strongly with the proposition that there would not not much of a mandolin culture without the Mandolin Cafe. To me, this is absurd."

I didn't mean to suggest that.

[Elliot Luber]

I think that it's more of a community than a culture... various communities, geared towards specific interests. I think when I use the word culture, I tend to not limit to a given instrument but rather the varying styles. There's a culture of bluegrass festival goers, there's a culture of classical music, there's an acoustic music culture (all with overlaps) but I don't see them restricted to a specific instrument. The only culture that really sticks out to me, within the larger group of musicians, are the guys that love sawdust and solder and don't just play. Yes, I see it as a community that falls all over the spectrum between classical and bluegrass cultures (and others). Some feel comfortable in both worlds and some don't.

[Elb2000]

I think there may be a significant difference in perspective based on playing skill level. I started playing mandolin as my 1st instrument 5 years ago at about age 55. I can now read music and play in bluegrass jams, but would not seriously consider playing in a classical mandolin group. I’m not a fan of ‘traditional bluegrass’ either, but consider my (more introductory) jam groups fairly open to different music styles and a good functional approach to both practicing improvisation as well as playing with others. I don’t have a lot of other music style group playing experience, but I perceive other style playing groups to be either less focused on improvisation or having a more narrowly focused music style.

[Bob A]

Subgroups of mandolin communities are brought together by internet connectivity. This is a recent phenomenon, which was approximated in past by print media, but certainly not to the extent now seen. The print folk were more narrowly focused on particular musical styles. The pressure of marketing for the purpose of commerce - selling mandolins - had some effect, as it did with other groupings of instruments. However, this didn't seem to encourage any blending of styles or other cross-fertilising.

Another aspect of "communities" is the effect of entropy. The Neapolitan mandolin tradition was effectively destroyed by Benito Mussolini, who disliked the existence of groups of musical idlers hanging around, while there was work to be done transforming the Italian culture into a productive Fascist state.

[Jim Imhoff]

Wow, this is great! THANKS to all of you, especially the critics.
I need to clear up some things intentionally left fuzzy in my initial post. First "research"--some people think of research as going to the library (old school!), or looking up on the internet. Others think of serious research as setting up a study with controls and clearly defined measures (that's quantitative research). I am looking into a qualitative study, where you talk, interact, probe, change the original question as it evolves, and then analyze what people do and say.
So for those of you who think I asked the wrong question, or asked the question wrong, you would be perfectly correct-- if it was my "research question." It was unfocused and poorly defined; but it got a much more interesting and varied response than I had expected. And it will help me refine and focus the actual research questions in my study.
In this thread I see posts that completely disagree with each other, posts that get other people thinking about what other people are thinking, and posts that gave me thoughts I hadn't thought. For those of you who thought the answer was obvious, look at the range of replies! I will be asking permission from some of you to quote and cite ("personal communication" 2017, or maybe Mandolin Cafe 2017), You gave me great material to write about the point of my study--the rationale. And my research question, the heart of the study, will be much more clearly defined and focused thanks to your input.
Maybe I played with some of you at CMSA Valley Forge, and maybe I will see some of you at Wintergrass, Bellevue WA: A perfect example of the mix-- the theme is "Bluegrass to Bach" and intensive classical workshops with Mike Marshall and Catherina Lichtenberg (hope I spelled it right).
Thanks again,
Jim, from Portland OR

[Jim Imhoff]

A historical aspect of which I was not aware--thanks! The historical development of "mandolin music" --literature or repertoire, as well as the shape and form of the instrument: I wonder if these are part of a "culture." But I am afraid that would be a whole different (and equally contentious) thread. By the way, the whole High School Band movement was started for commercial purposes after WWI when all the military band instrument companies needed and new market. That might have been the near-death of the mandolin orchestra.

[Astro]

Culture? For musicians ? HaHaHaHaHaHaHAburpHaHaHAHaHa

Cultured is what you call the people who pay for the tickets to listen to the musicians.

[JeffD]

Keep in mind that the mandolin is such a minority instrument. There are likely many more left handed flat pickers than mandolinners out there.

Well I have no data to support that but it seems likely to me.

So when we see a bird of our feather, we notice.

[Jim Imhoff]

OK, but would you consider "The Mandolin" to be such a case? As opposed to the musical styles and traditions--bluegrass, classical, swing, choro, etc... What would be the "art form?" Music, the instrument ... these could be dumb questions, but I just want to get people's thoughts, even if it's "that's a dumb question!"

[Jim Imhoff]

Good analogy--I was at my RV service place and looked though a magazine, and I realized it was "Motor Homes," NOT "RV's" there were no trailers or cab-overs. Snobs! Elitists!
And we love checking out our neighbors at he fests. Thanks!

[Austin Bob]

One thing I've not seen mentioned is the part that language plays in all of this. History is ripe with examples of different classes of people speaking different languages within the same communities, often as a way to promote and encourage class distinction.

This was often observed when a country sought to colonize another. Only the select few would be taught the language of the mother country, thus making it easier to keep things under control.

We have that same dichotomy in music, a classically trained musician will illustrate a thought or phrase differently than one who learned though the oral traditions. I don't think it is done for the same reasons (that of subjugation), but the effect can certainly be the same.

[Jeff Mando]

No

Best answer!:)):crying::));)

[Charlieshafer]

If there wasn't a website called Mandolin Cafe, I don't think I would have much 'mandolin culture' to speak of.

I'm not so sure this isn't far from the truth. I know others will disagree, but what a site like this does is mix ALL the mandolin players of all styles of music together. While mandolin playing bluegrass festival goers will certainly mix with other mandolin players there, the cross-pollination of styles would be greatly reduced. Same with ITM, or any other genre-specific meeting. And, for example, I could never have some give and take with players from the west coast, or those living across the pond. That's pretty big. I might never have known about some of the obscure players playing odd stuff, that are really great musicians.

The internet really has changed everything, especially for the younger players who grew up being exposed to virtually everything out there. It's also interesting that sites for other instruments don't seem to have the dedicated following this one does. There's some sort of lightening-in-a-bottle going on here, which really works to mandolin players benefit. Would another site have been able to achieve the same sort of diverse-yet-cohesive group? Not too sure.

[Mandolin Cafe]

I've always been under the impression, based on 21+ years of running this site, that there are aspects of the mandolin world that make it inherently different from other stringed and fretted instruments in regards to community.

Of course every type of music genre and instrument has that subset of their community--I call them "flamekeepers"--that see it as their public duty to "protect and defend" their chosen style. This is the "That ain't bluegrass!," "that's not old-time," "that's not a REAL classical mandolin," crowd, yadda yadda. Want to see feathers ruffled in the mandolin world? We're not immune. Toss the name Richard Smith out to Bill Monroe devotees. War, bloodbath, public attacks, snubs, backs turned. Unbelievable, the vitriol. Plenty of it to be found right on this forum. But beyond that? We're a bit different.

One of the great things about mandolins is that--and some will argue--that style is not really tied to the type of instrument, with some exception for bluegrass, and I suppose for classical music but only in Europe. Most of the great jazz mandolin players alive right now are playing instruments considered most widely used for bluegrass. Don Stiernberg, Paul Glasse, Aaron Weinstein, Joe K. Walsh, David Grisman, Mike Marshall. Many more. Jethro spent most of his career playing mandolins thought best for folk or bluegrass.

The F-5 and the early Gibson line was originally intended for classical and orchestral music. Plenty of great musicians are playing classical on what some consider bluegrass instruments: Evan Marshall, Mike Marshall, Chris Thile, Brian Oberlin, the U.S. mandolin orchestras are full of them. Even the great Israeli players, and there are a number of them, are playing instruments traditionally not found in the German and Italian schools where bowlback mandolin reigns, and probably always will.

What makes mandolins different is two things: 1) the instrument is really not that popular. Yes, that's me saying that. The relatively small size of the community makes for better neighbors. Compare to guitar or piano. What all-for-one community? 2) Mandolins are somewhat generic. You can play choro on a bowlback (so says Carlo Aonzo, Caterina Lichtenberg and others). Most jazz mandolin is played on F-5s or A model acoustic mandolins thought more for folk & bluegrass. Imagine a classical guitarist premiering with the New York Symphony showing up with a Martin D-35 or archtop Gibson. Imagine a guesting classical violinist showing up to a major orchestra in concert with a bizarre hybrid model that didn't fit the classical paradigm. Wouldn't happen.

Also, the size of the guitar and violin world is such that there's no need for one community, and it's just too large to make it one. Punk guitarists don't hang out online with classical, nylon string guitarists. Classical violinists at the upper end will not be found on an old-time fiddle site often. Sure, exceptions to everything, but the mandolin has less of that than other instruments. Banjo, you say? Don't dare get between the hard core clawhammer and 2-3 finger resonator crowd. Apples and oranges, it's ugly, I've seen it. The flatpicking and bluegrass guitar crowds don't have this kind of community. Nor does banjo or fiddle. And bass? Who knows...

So, I say the mandolin community is different, but it's not really that mandolin players are a different breed. We're a bit surrounded by the instrument itself, its versatility and the simple fact that you really can play any kind of music on one. It's a great vehicle, and I think its unique nature and somewhat lack of respect in the larger music world makes for a more coherent community.

[Jim Imhoff]

To the guys who posted "NO." and "best answer:"
Maybe, but I wasn't looking for an answer: I was looking for thoughtful comments and even arguments. Don't see that here.

[Jim Imhoff]

This is the kind of thought out critical response I was looking for--THANKS! I am careful about a clique thinking they have something unique and special (nearly every group does), but you lay out some specifics that support such a concept for the mandolin world. A few other people posted about similar off-beat instrumental families, accordian, ukelele and such. And I hadn't thought of the A's and F's as being so tied to a style, but often used across genre. Another thread might be about the historical development of the different branches, Italian bowl-back, Loar F5 and so on. That might tie into my question about a culture, but a bit off the pth of my proposed study. This thread has given me a lot to work with--many thanks and respect!
jim

[Jim Imhoff]

That's a great line of thought (and linguistics was part of my doctoral dissertation). That colonial effect had a sort of static effect as well among the colonists. "L'Algiers est la France" was the cry among French colonial ex-pats in Algeria when France "abandoned" them and granted independence. They (the colonials) believed were the only "true" French. I also read that when Scottish musicians wanted to revive the old traditional styles, they went to NOVA Scotia in Canada, because the "colonials" tended to hold fast to old ways, whereas the homelanders evolved in a more natural way. When I did French Renaissance music with a choir, I learned that Quebecois was closer to "old" French than modern Parisian. Very helpful post--thanks!

[DavidKOS]

1. Of course every type of music genre and instrument has that subset of their community--I call them "flamekeepers"--that see it as their public duty to "protect and defend" their chosen style. This is the "That ain't bluegrass!," "that's not old-time," "that's not a REAL classical mandolin," crowd, yadda yadda.......

2. One of the great things about mandolins is that--and some will argue--that style is not really tied to the type of instrument, with some exception for bluegrass, and I suppose for classical music but only in Europe. Most of the great jazz mandolin players alive right now are playing instruments considered most widely used for bluegrass.
......


3. The F-5 and the early Gibson line was originally intended for classical and orchestral music.
.....


4. What makes mandolins different is two things: 1) the instrument is really not that popular. Yes, that's me saying that. The relatively small size of the community makes for better neighbors. Compare to guitar or piano. What all-for-one community? 2) Mandolins are somewhat generic. .... instrument itself, its versatility and the simple fact that you really can play any kind of music on one. It's a great vehicle, and I think its unique nature and somewhat lack of respect in the larger music world makes for a more coherent community.

These 4 points are worthy of note. I need say no more.

[MandoAblyss]

As the cellist said in the David Wallace Berklee strings community video: I play mandolin. And I play music.

Thanks for that link!

[Bill McCall]

So, I say the mandolin community is different

Of course, its playing the world's most perfect instrument.

[Jim Bevan]

I read the Cafe all the time, I feel like I know many of the contributors well (in a sort of Internet-age-y way), and I feel like I'm part of a community, but, love the mandolin as we all do, I don't feel any cultural bond with the rest of the group. Quite the contrary -- I feel that we're all here despite our cultural differences.

[Mandomusic]

Another "c" word comes to mind in addition to "community" and "culture" with respect to the mandolin. That word is "connection." Whenever I hear music played that has a mandolin in it, my ears instantly perk up (regardless of genre or ability). Whenever I see another mandolin player, a positive conversation typically unfolds--the instrument immediately connects us.

We play a niche instrument for a reason (like the sound, the adventure of exploring something less traveled, the personal size, the craftsmanship of the instruments, and the like) and we have passion for it. Reading the emotion in the varied posts in the Cafe, that passion evolves, regardless of what style of music we play on it.

Part of the connection is the discovery of an instrument that brings us joy. Another part of the connection is that judgmentally, we play the coolest instrument on earth. And how many times have we been asked: is that a ukelele or banjo you are playing? No, its a mandolin...

[nickster60]

Just my opinion. I think most people who play the mandolin it wasn't their first choice of instrument. Most of us started playing other instruments before we discovered the mandolin. I don't think most young musicians are exposed to the mandolin. For that reason most of us play multiple instruments and that being said our musical palate may be more diverse. Is there a mandolin culture? Maybe we should call it a Mandolin Cult.

[Bertram Henze]

Just my opinion. I think most people who play the mandolin it wasn't their first choice of instrument.
...
Maybe we should call it a Mandolin Cult.

I played other instruments before the mandolin, but they were other people's choices being thrust upon me. So my own first choice was indeed the mandolin.
And I'd call it a mandolin sanctuary.

[Dagger Gordon]

That's a great line of thought (and linguistics was part of my doctoral dissertation). That colonial effect had a sort of static effect as well among the colonists. "L'Algiers est la France" was the cry among French colonial ex-pats in Algeria when France "abandoned" them and granted independence. They (the colonials) believed were the only "true" French. I also read that when Scottish musicians wanted to revive the old traditional styles, they went to NOVA Scotia in Canada, because the "colonials" tended to hold fast to old ways, whereas the homelanders evolved in a more natural way. When I did French Renaissance music with a choir, I learned that Quebecois was closer to "old" French than modern Parisian. Very helpful post--thanks!

Actually in France I have run into a 'mandolin culture'. There is a group called the Melonious Quartet, led by Patrick Vaillant, who have a small international mandolin festival called Mandopolis, which I have played at. They call this "Le Front de Libération de la Mandoline".

Their website is not kept up to date very well, but gives you an idea.

http://www.mandopolis.org/

http://melonious.mandopolis.org/

[MandoAblyss]

They call this "Le Front de Libération de la Mandoline".

Vive le FLM!

[ProfChris]

A particularly interesting thread for me because I'm currently engaged in research into online communities from the perspective of legal philosophy (yes, I do know that we academics should get out more!). That project began through my involvement in ukulele playing and making, which showed me a complex group of sub-communities which does seem to coalesce into a wider ukulele community (subject to many of the caveats in this thread, the banjo ukers are really quite separate for example).

Doc, you might find it interesting, as a benchmark, to attend a ukulele festival. I had thought there were no purely mandolin festivals until the French one was mentioned, but there are dozens in the UK and probably hundreds in the US. It seems to me that there's a kind of player/participant culture at work, where those who purely want to play for their own pleasure band together in uke clubs (all playing the same chords in unison, and singing in unison), and then ganging together in bigger groups to hear the ukulele performers (and to recreate their unison club music) at festivals.

The mandolin looks different to me, though I only lurks on the edge of the culture. But I don't see beginner and moderately skilled mandolin players banding together in the same way. Part of this must be that the mandolin is rarely used for solo vocal accompaniment, whereas if you can play three chords on the uke and sing you have a performing act, if a short one :)

The reasons for this difference, and how they shape the culture, might be worth exploring. Someone mentioned harpists as gathering together, but I doubt they play en masse, so that might be the other end of the spectrum.

[SincereCorgi]

Doc, you might find it interesting, as a benchmark, to attend a ukulele festival. I had thought there were no purely mandolin festivals until the French one was mentioned, but there are dozens in the UK and probably hundreds in the US. It seems to me that there's a kind of player/participant culture at work, where those who purely want to play for their own pleasure band together in uke clubs (all playing the same chords in unison, and singing in unison), and then ganging together in bigger groups to hear the ukulele performers (and to recreate their unison club music) at festivals.

Ukuleles are 1) physically easier to play because of nylon strings and lower tension 2) so similar to guitar tuning that the chord voicings sound familiar and lend themselves better to recreating the sound of well-known songs 3) unintimidating, to the point where some consider them frivolous. I think it's the perfect instrument for the self-teachers of the age of YouTube and message boards.

Which, of course, makes me wonder how mandolin orchestras were ever a phenomenon at all. In my experience, most advanced mandolin players usually play a number of other instruments as well, often within a few well-defined genres. Mandolin players who only play mandolin are, at least around here, usually adult hobbyists who are more interested in the social aspects of playing. If there's any sense of community among mandolinists who play in particular genres like swing or blues, it's the camaraderie of sticking up for an oddball instrument in a culture where they get a lot of funny looks and dumb questions.

[J.Albert]

Question:
"Other than the common instrument, is there such a thing as the mandolin culture/community/society"

Answer:
Yer lookin' at it. Right here.

[Randi Gormley]

fwiw I think there is a (relatively) large and strictly mando-centric gathering in the US, by the way, or else the stuff I've heard about CMSA's yearly convention has been misconstrued...

I'm curious about another line of thought arising from the original question. Do people who live in more than one music genre as mandolinists find differences in themselves as they move from genre to genre? I'm thinking about music cultures, f'rinstance, where expected behavior is fairly well defined. Are mandolinists, or any musicians, chameleons? Does dedication to music create lines between disparate communities that otherwise wouldn't exist? -- barring general good manners and general humanity, of course.

I've attended a mandolin-family-specific workshop (Carlo Aonzo's Manhattan Mandolin Workshop) where we're all playing classical from sheet music when we're rehearsing or working on a piece. It's a lot like my band experience in high school, all focus, all music-driven, getting runs correctly, playing softly behind soloists ... but in the breaks, everybody sits back, relaxes a bit and suddenly there's a bluegrass run or an ITM jig. We're the same people, but our focus has changed. Does our mindset, I wonder? do we have a "classical" persona we put on just for that?

I also have attended ITM or folk workshops where mandolins are few and far between. There, you don't often see sheet music, people play however (although with the same focus and passion), drink is often flowing and the crowd can get rowdy. Do I become a different person to blend in?

[ProfChris]

Ukuleles are 1) physically easier to play because of nylon strings and lower tension 2) so similar to guitar tuning that the chord voicings sound familiar and lend themselves better to recreating the sound of well-known songs 3) unintimidating, to the point where some consider them frivolous. I think it's the perfect instrument for the self-teachers of the age of YouTube and message boards.

True to some extent, though playing open G, C and D chords on the mandolin is very little harder. So why is there no culture of three chord songs in G for voice and mandolin? And no culture of purely instrumental ukulele music until the last 10 years? I don't think these are down to the instrument, because at the level of performances to paying customers I don't see there to be a radically different level of musicianship.

This might be the kind of question which Doc would want to investigate.

[Gelsenbury]

Yes, I think there is a mandolin culture. As evidence, it has already been mentioned that many mandolinists cross over between genres for the love of playing mandolin. From my own experience, I can confirm that I have discovered music outside of my previous favourite genre (and in some cases changed my tastes permanently) simply because it had mandolin in it. And when we see someone play mandolin, we are interested in equipment and technique - regardless of genre. Some of this may come from our minority status: Seeing and hearing mandolins is unusual enough to attract attention and promote a sense of kinship. But it would be wrong to say that this minority status is the only reason for the mandolin culture. It just makes a unique mandolin culture easier to "imagine" as a community, if we extrapolate from Benedict Anderson's writing about nations.

Like other cultures, the mandolin culture has its symbols and values. The Mandolin Café sticker on my instrument case, my Mandolin Café baseball cap, the mandolin T-shirt I'm wearing - all of these signify the mandolin culture and my identification with it. They are about more than my liking of mandolins: They show it to the outside world, highlight it to kindred spirits, start conversations. The Mandolin Café is instrumental in spreading these symbols and promoting these connections.

Values are perhaps less obvious ... or too obvious. The mandolin is a great instrument and should be promoted. The instrument should be looked after and handled with care. Tremolo is worth learning but shouldn't be over-used. Not all of these are unique to mandolin culture; but values are cross-cultural and not meant to be unique.

Having said all of this about mandolin culture, of course I don't mean to say that genre cultures (e.g. in bluegrass or Irish) are less important. But I think there is evidence to suggest that a cross-cutting mandolin culture exists in the life-world of mandolin players.

[Jim Imhoff]

Randi,
That idea of persona will be important to my study, the way people think of themselves when they pick up the instrument. First, is it a step away from being a banker/teacher/engineer/barista... second, as you suggest is there a different sense of self (and place) when going as I do from jam to rehearsal? Appreciate the thoughts!

[Jim Imhoff]

jackofblack, would you care to elaborate, as many people posted thoughtful and critical comments that say "yes?"

[Bob Clark]

I believe a mandolin culture does exist, and I experience it when I encounter mandolinists in non-musical settings. When I travel with my mandolin and am on a train or in a train station, if another mandolinist notices it, I have found an instant companion and we have lots to talk about. The presence of my mandolin in its case was the only thing that identified me as a member of this clan, but that was enough to trigger an instant bond.

Likewise, when I am traveling without my mandolin, by plane for example, and I see someone carrying a mandolin case in an airport, I immediately introduce myself and we have instant grounds for enlivened conversation. Regardless of which genres we play, age differences or differences in other recognizable attributes, we are of a common clan.

I do not see the same degree of instant acceptance when I observe two guitarists awaiting a train or plane. I believe the difference is that guitars are fairly common, yet mandolins are an oddity. It is as if we are wearing a secret badge or know some secret handshake. The bond of the mandolin clan is immediate and relatively strong.

In my travels, I have encountered a number of mandolinists on account of one or the other of us carrying a mandolin case, or one or the other wearing a Mandolin Cafe hat (the Cafe really does promote this culture). I value these interactions. I believe they indicate the existence of a mandolin culture on one level or another.

[Mark Gunter]

So why is there no culture of three chord songs in G for voice and mandolin?

An assumption would be because the limited, higher registers of the mandolin are less suited to vocal accompaniment than ukelele, guitar or piano.

[Charles E.]

Um, it's called Bluegrass.

[Mark Gunter]

Um, it's called Bluegrass.

Uh, Charles, I haven't seen much Bluegrass with just mandolin and vocals - but then I'm a newbie. Most Bluegrass I've seen adds bass, banjo, fiddle and guitar. Not saying it isn't done solo with mandolin and voice, but I don't think that's the culture.

[Jim Imhoff]

Uh, Charles, I haven't seen much Bluegrass with just mandolin and vocals - but then I'm a newbie. Most Bluegrass I've seen adds bass, banjo, fiddle and guitar. Not saying it isn't done solo with mandolin and voice, but I don't think that's the culture.

Yes, Mark; I have seen Chris Thiele do a whole evening of just mando and vocals, but he is a rare artist. I have tried and it is unsatisfactory, even when my wife plays banjo with me. A guitar at least is needed to fill out the lower harmonic range.

[Dagger Gordon]

I had thought there were no purely mandolin festivals until the French one was mentioned.

Actually there was also another pretty big one in France called Mandolines De Lunel, which has featured many of the big names but looks to have stopped. Some good videos if you take a look.

http://www.mandolinesdelunel.com/2015/accueil/

https://www.facebook.com/mandolinesdelunel

[Bertram Henze]

Uh, Charles, I haven't seen much Bluegrass with just mandolin and vocals - but then I'm a newbie. Most Bluegrass I've seen adds bass, banjo, fiddle and guitar. Not saying it isn't done solo with mandolin and voice, but I don't think that's the culture.

Yeah, a culture like that cannot be defined by a single instrument existing on its own, but it can be by its unique role in a larger context, or by a variety of roles in different contexts. There is Mr Monroe, and there is Joe Dolce... :whistling:

Even Superman would be nothing without all the bad guys providing todos :cool:

[Petrus]

Ukuleles are 1) physically easier to play because of nylon strings and lower tension 2) so similar to guitar tuning that the chord voicings sound familiar and lend themselves better to recreating the sound of well-known songs 3) unintimidating, to the point where some consider them frivolous. I think it's the perfect instrument for the self-teachers of the age of YouTube and message boards.

I hear that I lot and I've tried several times to get into the uke and just haven't been able to do it. The reentrant tuning throws me off, and I can't seem to get those nylon strings to stay in tune. I usually end up "experimenting," first by wrestling the thing into familiar 5ths tuning, then trying to finagle metal strings onto it, then realizing I'm never going to make Jake Shimabukuru nervous and that I could just as well be playing one of my mandolins and thus endeth the endeavor.

So, I think the mandolin may be easier to play than the uke in some ways, which maybe contributes to the sense of "mandolin culture" as such. ( <-- Topic sentence) :grin:

I do play other instruments tuned in 5ths like the tenor banjo, tenor guitar, and of course other mandolin family instruments. These can be fun too, though it occasionally dawns on me that I'm not learning a whole lot of new tricks by doing this since they're all tuned similarly and I end up playing almost my same repertoire on all of them -- I mainly learn how to stretch those fingers. But there's something about four strings/courses (matching with four fingers) and 5ths tuning that makes sense to me (probably coming from a violin background.)

[Bob A]

Yes, Mark; I have seen Chris Thiele do a whole evening of just mando and vocals, but he is a rare artist. I have tried and it is unsatisfactory, even when my wife plays banjo with me. A guitar at least is needed to fill out the lower harmonic range.

If I may be permitted to continue with a de-railing here, I found a mandola for the very purpose of accompanying my daughter's vocals, some time ago. While I'm charmed by the instrument, I often think that it has achieved only limited use because its range is swamped by that of the guitar. That said, it bears most of the benefits of the mandolin: tuned in 5ths, easy portability, and of course obscurity.

[CarlM]

Yes, Mark; I have seen Chris Thiele do a whole evening of just mando and vocals, but he is a rare artist. I have tried and it is unsatisfactory, even when my wife plays banjo with me. A guitar at least is needed to fill out the lower harmonic range.

Bela and Abigail will also do a whole evening of just banjo and vocals. Also rare artists.

Charles Sawtelle is said to have expounded on that point once to Tim O'Brien stating that it is impossible to create beautiful music on an instrument with only highs and no midrange. Tim then proceeded to play an astounding, extraordinary, wonderful solo mandolin piece. He looked at Charles and said something like "Well, what about that?" Charles then responded "I rest my case."

[Jim Imhoff]

Bela and Abigail will also do a whole evening of just banjo and vocals. Also rare artists.

Charles Sawtelle is said to have expounded on that point once to Tim O'Brien stating that it is impossible to create beautiful music on an instrument with only highs and no midrange. Tim then proceeded to play an astounding, extraordinary, wonderful solo mandolin piece. He looked at Charles and said something like "Well, what about that?" Charles then responded "I rest my case."

I guess I will have to throw out all my recordings of the Bach violin partitas; damn, I thought the Ciaconna in d minor was the greatest solo piece ever composed. In all my years as a music educator and researcher, I have found that the rigidity of defined categories is both wrong (linguistically, neurobiologically, and epistemologically) and more a function of an individual's personality than anything to do with music, dog breeds, or pickup trucks. "There are only 2 kinds of people in the world: people who agree with me and people who are wrong."

[CarlM]

Just to be clear the story is tongue in cheek. Anyone who could respond that way to Tim O'Brien's best work is either asleep and not listening or in this case a profoundly good musician having fun at the expense of a friend who he played with for many years at the highest level.

[Drew Streip]

I'm late to the discussion, but I think there's an interesting chicken-and-egg element to your question, Doc:

What are the shared cultural elements before and after becoming a "Mandolin Player"?

I started out as a saxophone and guitar player. Actually, I started out as a kid interested in listening to (and wanting to create and re-create) music. Violin wasn't for me. So I became a sax player, and quickly moved to baritone sax -- which was its own phenomenon, as an 11-year-old with a life-size instrument.

Looking back, I realize that my obsession with mandolin and bari sax are similar: They're both instruments that elicit stares and questions ("Look how big/small that is! Can you believe he plays that?"). They both are critical additions to voicing common ensembles, yet there are relatively few "solo" performers, because they occupy a space outside the comfortable mid-range. They're both versatile -- neither is as pigeonholed as, say, the tenor sax is for jazz, or as the 12-string guitar is for wayward hair-metal ballads, or as the ukulele is for Hawaiian music and college girls trying to be quirky.

Then, of course, people subconsciously emulate other aspects (beyond the musical) of the their instrumental idols. Chris Thile is just barely older than me, so I like the way he dresses, and his stage presence. I like Paul Hoffman's beard and hard-rock aesthetic. I like Mike Marshall's goofy, academic, professorial appearance and approach to his instrument. Ditto John Reischman. They come across as worldly in a way that good ol' boy flatpickers don't. I've always loved South American culture; is it a coincidence, then, that Marshal and Reischman both have albums of Brazilian choros? Or am I destined to one day deserve and acquire a Lloyd Loar mandolin and spread music to the next generation?

Great discussion!

[Jim Imhoff]

Drew,
That's a useful line of thought for my study: how has joining this world/group/community changed the player's life? identity? social net, and so on. And the off-center range of both your instruments is surely a factor: it almost calls out to be in an ensemble, not as heavily soloistic as guitar or piano. Appreciate the thoughts.
Jim

[Jim Imhoff]

Of course, Carl--I wasn't really going to throw out my Bach partitas! I bet they both had a big laugh if that story really happened. But the rigid category thing was part of my dissertation years ago, and I learned the popular (and ancient Platonic) concept of a category being sharply defined by features (this color, that size, found in Australia and so on) does not hold up under careful linguistic analysis. I have run into a lot of "That's not bluegrass!" attitudes at jams, and I even know a guy who will sit his instrument down if you don't "play it the way Bill did." Just think of what is contained in the category of "Mandolin Music;" how would you give a simple rigid definition of that?

[Tom Haywood]

The use of language and particular words interests me. In this case, the word "culture" has acquired over time a fairly diverse set of meanings from the base verb "to cultivate", which is based in agriculture - tilling a field for crops. This diversity is causing me difficulty in understanding the OP's questions. I do understand that this exercise is in part an exploration of possible diverse approaches to the idea, which itself is not solidly framed. Merriam-Webster's definitions #5 b and d, having to do with beliefs, conventions, values and social practices of particular groups, seems to me to be what we are discussing. Definition 4 a, having to do with enlightenment and excellent taste, is very appealing, but 4 b could cause trouble by distinguishing between taste in fine arts and mere vocational and technical skills. There is some hint in responses that we are discussing definition 2: "the act of developing the intellectual and moral faculties especially by education". Based on definition 6, I placed a mandolin in a very large petri dish and nothing happened - no culture developed. We might all agree that this last definition is not what we are discussing - even that it's ridiculous, but at this point I think it is fair.

[Mark Gunter]

Based on definition 6, I placed a mandolin in a very large petri dish and nothing happened - no culture developed.

Perhaps you neglected to attach a ToneRite (sp?) to it.

[Jim Imhoff]

Tom, try a peachtree dish, they work every time. There should be some available in your town.
And yes, "beliefs, conventions, values and social practices of particular groups" is what I am getting at. Some people suggested community, but that ks used so commonly and loosely I did not think it would generate more than short few-word type answers. I am amazed at the volume and level of response. The use of language and words is part of my study too: you are using lexical references (dictionary); my work got me into pragmatics, meanings in context, with factors like setting, power relationships, tone, etc.

[ProfChris]

To power relationships you might want to add status, which seems to me related but not identical.

In the UK's ukulele 'culture' I see four groupings: players (the overwhelming majority), performers, organisers/facilitators of groups/events, and builders. There is a lot of overlap - I appear to belong to all four groups (!) - and they interact in ways which are quite different from what you would expect in, for example, a commercial context (even though some money is involved). There is a lot of cooperation and interaction, and also to some extent a gift economy going on. This definitely impacts on status within the culture, and probably has power effects too. It's quite different from guitar players, where the boundaries between these groupings are less permeable. Just as one example, at a ukulele festival the paid performers all spend time offstage interacting with the audience (who are 99% players), talking to them, teaching them playing tips, jamming with them, etc. But the performers also have conversations between themselves which are quite different in content.

I'd guess the mandolin, as a minority instrument with all the "oddball" perceptions explained by previous posters, might have something similar within its culture.

[Bren]

Most mandolin players I know are self-taught, whereas almost all the fiddlers I know took lessons, often from a young age.

That's the main cultural difference I can think of. I appreciate that a large proportion of guitarists are also self-taught.

Genre differences and boundaries are far more significant to non-players than players, in my experience.

[JeffD]

the instrument is really not that popular. Yes, that's me saying that. The relatively small size of the community makes for better neighbors. ... and somewhat lack of respect in the larger music world makes for a more coherent community.

Yes!

Nothing makes community like a common enemy. Us against the world.

Not enemies really, but that is the idea. Experiences we mandolinners, many/most of us, have had in common are:

Relative ignorance of the general public as to what that instrument is ("I see you brought your banjolukee today.")

Being the only mandolin or one of two mandolins at an event, in a sea of guitars and fiddles.

Music stores not having any mandolins, and/or a staff that knows next to nothing about them.

Of course there are exceptions to these experiences, but they are the exceptions that remind us of the rule. In an onstage interview at an open mike benefit concert - if the MC asks the musician "now what is that instrument that you brought today?", you can feel the general assumption that you brought something for show and tell and left your "real instrument" at home. And with reasonable confidence I know my mandolin compadres can relate to that.

[JeffD]

Another interesting point - well interesting to me - what are some of the common personality types that are drawn to the mandolin in the first place. Perhaps we make community because we recognize that in other mandolinners, maybe even not explicitly, and can relate because they are us are me.

I could suggest a list of personality types, but it would be a lot of hash and reification of my own prejudices about the superiority of the mandolin. :)

But there is something to this. For example - and I see this often enough - the two mandolinners at a general music event will very often find each other and chat a bit, like new found friends who discover they are from the same small town. Whereas I see lots and lots of guitar players who don't acknowledge each other beyond musical necessity. (Like watching each others left hand to learn the chords to the song.)

[Randi Gormley]

JeffD -- I think in a large enough crowd of mandolinners, you'll find the same personality types you'd find in a mixed musical group, just because they're musicians. If I'm one of two mandolins in a crowd of fiddles and other instruments, f'rinstance, I'll absolutely gravitate to the other mandolin and we'll do fine together. But if I'm in a roomful of mandolins, I've found that some people I like and some I don't care for, in a mild kind of way. I think maybe 'musician' may be at least as descriptive of personality as 'mandolin player' for sorting out 'my kind of people' from 'not my kind of people.' So, maybe, we're musicians first, mandolin players second and then whatever genre we prefer third?

[JeffD]

JeffD -- I think in a large enough crowd of mandolinners, you'll find the same personality types you'd find in a mixed musical group, ?

You may be right.

I go to few "mandolin events" so I haven't a lot of experience in a large crowd of mandolinners. (Its a hard concept to get my brain around. But yea, the principle of rarity. Enough mandolinners so that "they ain't nothing special". :)


So, maybe, we're musicians first, mandolin players second and then whatever genre we prefer third?

Nested communities, like Matryoshka dolls.

[catmandu2]

Yes, in my (college) town, and other college towns I've lived, mandolin (nor bluegrass) isn't a rarity at all. In fact, the mandolin is relatively common here - given the popularity of bluegrass, generally.

I do experience relative rarity with other instruments I play, such as wire harp and melodeon - don't know that I've seen any of these about here (nor there, for that matter). When I play hammered dulcimer, most (it seems) folks don't know what it is, and typically several inquire whether it's a cimbalom, which is a good guess and not entirely inaccurate.

[JeffD]

Yes, in my (college) town, and other college towns I've lived, mandolin (nor bluegrass) isn't a rarity at all. In fact, the mandolin is relatively common here - given the popularity of bluegrass, generally. .

Well we have likely had some equal and opposite experience. I have not found bluegrass of particular interest in college towns. If anything it is kind of denigrated, and local adherents are sheepish about admitting they like it. Most of the college towns I have visited are much more traditional fiddle tunes and dance and pockets of enthusiasm for otherwise arcane music and dance tradition.

But I suspect also this varies a lot geographically, and by size of institution, and the individual culture of the college itself.

I don't doubt you, just surprised to hear you say that.

[catmandu2]

Yea, i could be way off applying too broad a pattern - in Boulder, Ft Collins and Missoula, caint hardly throw a stick without hitting a mandolin player, and BG band. These may not be typical, among college towns..

*Btw, I too am surprised - here, BG is about as popular as rock and country in the clubs, it seems (well, not quite - nothing displaces 'rock' as preeminent in clubs). I'd thought BG was moving right up there, in terms of wide appeal...but I've no idea of popular trends - no fair means of assessing

Gotta quality above- I don't know of others more than one or two playing wire harp. Melodeon there's gotta be more than those I know - exemplified by the old folks who are selling them occasionally on CL - bought one over the summer in fact

Greg Boyd had a Corona on consignment a few years ago (and a duet-system Lachenal, so things DO turn up occasionally) - I didnt buy it, and Greg said he should keep it and learn how to play it - so hopefully there's at least one more button player here now : ) **ah now I remember - I recommended it to a mel.net-er who bought it.

[Jim Imhoff]

To all of you,
I opened this discussion because I am planning a qualitative study to compare and contrast a local bluegrass jam/class group with a classically oriented mandolin orchestra. Because the orchestra is strictly mandolin (with an occasional guitar part included) I started wondering about the bridge between the two groups as the instrument itself. The bluegrass group of course includes guitar, fiddle, banjo, and dobro players, but a well designed case study should have a well defined "case." I wondered if mandolin culture/community was just such a "case" or just people who happened to play the same instrument. I knew people who played one style exclusively, people who played in both groups (as I do) and people who played other styles such as swing, choro, and old time. On the surface, the mandolin appears to be a common factor, which got me thinking about a community or culture. I am amazed at the length and depth of the thread--I was expecting a few replies and mostly perfunctory YES/NO answers. Instead, I see serious thoughtful dialog(s) ranging from musical to sociological to commercial to linguistic! Before even starting my actual study (this was a preliminary survey, NOT the research itself) I have a wealth of questions to ask and themes to pursue. I will continue checking in to see what further trouble I have stirred up, but I most heartily appreciate the Mandolin Cafe managers and community for their careful and thoughtful response, and for our shared love of the instrument.
Doc James -- not a real doctor, I just play one on the mandolin.

[catmandu2]

Cool Doc - I'm a sociology/human ecology buff from school. Havent read much in the technical realm in years, but still curious! (I'm more an anthro-psych reader, to term broadly, now, to any extent that I read tech).

*Btw I'll have to go back and read the thread yet, and i'm sure it's been elucidated by all the fine folks here - but for me, mostly retired and all, the net is (a) culture, or e-culture, and FB and all that stuff. It's new world.. Thats at least one chapter in your book i'd think.

[catmandu2]

...
One serious question I need to ask first is this: Other than the common instrument, is there such a thing as the mandolin culture/community/society, or are there separate, unrelated social structures for bluegrass, classical, swing... and so on? ...

Hell if I know. Though I would think people/groups sort out by all mechanisms, including homogeneously among, both, types of instruments as well as types of music.. By what I observe online, both instrument type as well as music type tend to be discrete categories by which folks collect and communicate.

When I peruse online fora, I'm generally motivated by music-type, but I find myself amid mutliple instrument-type fora, but typically engaging in music-rather than instrument-related discussion (vis a vis - I don't even play mandolin anymore, yet find topics of various music-related disussion here ..

[SincereCorgi]

To all of you,
I opened this discussion because I am planning a qualitative study to compare and contrast a local bluegrass jam/class group with a classically oriented mandolin orchestra. Because the orchestra is strictly mandolin (with an occasional guitar part included) I started wondering about the bridge between the two groups as the instrument itself.

I don't know if you're going to get a very representative sample of typical mandolinists if you only look at these two groups. Classical mandolin is rare, classical mandolin orchestras are extremely rare, and by their very nature are going to be composed of mainly adult amateurs with a classical music education, lots of income, a desire to be a 'joiner', and spare time. They're probably also a lot more likely to see a 'mandolin culture' than mandolinists who usually play among other instruments.

[Charlieshafer]

I am amazed at the length and depth of the thread--I was expecting a few replies and mostly perfunctory YES/NO answers. Instead, I see serious thoughtful dialog(s) ranging from musical to sociological to commercial to linguistic!

I suppose this might be due to the lack of gainful employment by most of us musicians....Plenty o' free time to expound on, well, wherever the thread creeps to.

On the flip side, I do wonder if the mandolin attracts people who would like not to be considered "ordinary". As someone said about guitarists not being a cohesive group, perhaps there are just so many players, and so many guitars, they feel the need to line themselves up in some sort of pecking order. I'm not seeing that with all the mandolinists (or even multi-genre fiddlers) I know. Everyone seems pretty comfortable with the fact that we're as good as we are as individuals, and enjoy players better than us, and remember fondly the times when we were just starting out and making a mess of things. As far as the instruments, we admire the fantastic ones, and can barely afford the average (on average, which makes sense, that's why they're average.) Most of the mandolin players I know, even a lot of the pros, love the super-instruments, but know they have a car payment or college tuition due. It's a pretty relaxed culture, on the whole...

[Jim Imhoff]

I don't know if you're going to get a very representative sample of typical mandolinists if you only look at these two groups. Classical mandolin is rare, classical mandolin orchestras are extremely rare, and by their very nature are going to be composed of mainly adult amateurs with a classical music education, lots of income, a desire to be a 'joiner', and spare time. They're probably also a lot more likely to see a 'mandolin culture' than mandolinists who usually play among other instruments.
Maybe rare, but not so extremely rare; CMSA has a national listing of around 40. And That's just USA & Canada; a member of my group from Japan says there are numerous MO's in Tokyo alone, and of course many in Europe.
You are right about a representative/typical sample of mandolin player. But the population I am really looking at is (1) adults who participate in community music groups, and specifically (2) the people who play in these two local groups. The mandolin culture question was a preliminary survey, thinking about interviewing just one instrumental group (because the orchestra IS one instrument based). Again, my actual study will be different from the question I posed here, but the feedback will play an important part in developing and designing the research questions.

[Jim Bevan]

So, Doc James, post #99 asks: While your actual study will be different from the question you posed here, you did pose the question, and it's a simple one, which could be answered with a "yes" or a "no" -- were you able to reach a simple conclusion?

[Bill McCall]

maybe rare, but not so extremely rare

Really? OBA lists about 15 monthly jams, plus innumerable private jams in Portland alone. Multiply that across 50 states and innumerable towns and cities. I'm unaware of classical jams, but I may just be a bit uninformed in that area.

I also think the sociology of groups is well studied and examining the differences of similar, non musical groups may be enlightening, such as recreational bicycle riders and team racing clubs.

And finally, I'm still unsure how you design a study when you are a member of both studied groups. Part of the study will invariably reflect your own participation and belief systems.

[Al Trujillo]

Doc: I'm late to this discussion and I have not, nor will I read all the posts tonight. Intuitively I think of a 'culture' as being a group that thinks alike, and perhaps acts or dresses in similar fashion. Look no further than your local Harley-Davidson dealership for advanced studies! I own two HD 'Hogs' but I feel terribly uncomfortable dressing like a pirate, wearing the latest sleeveless t-shirt, etc. So I guess you can say that I am somewhat disabled because I like my bikes but I don't like the Borg-like mentality that may go along with owning one. Therefore, when it comes to my mandolin...I've yet to play with another mandolineer, I don't own a MC T-shirt or baseball cap (on sale today only by-the-way!). Same with fly fishing...I love my hobbies but I hate being pigeon-holed into a category, or 'culture'. I ride because I like it, I fly-fish because its easy to release them unharmed, and I play an mandolin because it keeps my mind busy. I certainly don't need the distraction of 'belonging' to a group to feel comfortable within my own skin. Thanks for the opportunity to post.

[Jim Imhoff]

[/QUOTE]And finally, I'm still unsure how you design a study when you are a member of both studied groups. Part of the study will invariably reflect your own participation and belief systems.[/QUOTE]
Yes on all counts, but there is also a growing body of research in community musical groups--I am part of that.
Certainly bluegrass jams are way more common than classical orchestras, but they do exist around the country and even more so around the world--Japan and Europe. OMO is one, in Hillsboro/Portland, and there are several in California and Washington, and many many in other nations. I played with 150 mandolins from orchestras all over the world in Philadelphia two months ago. And there are gatherings of people who play through chamber music for strings (I cover the Mozart cello parts on my Gibson K2). It's a matter of how you define rare, I guess; not really important to my central question.
You are right about the study design, but:
All ethnographic, phenomenological, and many case studies are done by people active and/or immersed in the culture. Yes, it will invariably reflect my own belief systems. The claim that quantitative-positivist research DIDN'T do so is a myth. There are steps to take to be "as objective as possible" but you are never really. The questions you ask, the terms you choose, the sample you select, even the statistical analysis--that fact that you are doing a study reflects personal philosophical and epistemological groundings. Somebody raised this question way earlier in the thread, but as I said I am overwhelmed with the volume and range of replies: YOU are number 100!

[mandowilli]

I have no idea what you people are talking about.

[Bertram Henze]

I have no idea what you people are talking about.

Hmmm, yes, there seem to be more "cultures":
- a culture of playing
- a culture of talking about playing
- a culture of talking about talking about playing
- ....
;)

[Gelsenbury]

I'm really pleased that someone is doing some research on mandolin culture. Perhaps I could draft a proposal for my side of the Atlantic too ... :)

[Dagger Gordon]

To give this a slightly different spin, some of us also play CBOM instruments at least as much as the mandolin itself, and I do sometimes feel a certain kinship with players of the bouzouki, the Cretan laouto,, the oud, the Afghan rubab, the Cuban laud etc etc.

What I'm getting at is that there are lots of instruments all over the world which are (in a sense) guitar-like, but in fact are probably closer to a variation of a mandolin or octave mandolin, especially when you consider the huge variety of different tunings people sometimes get into.
Even in the Celtic world alone there are a bunch of bouzouki and guitar tunings.

American guitarists and mandolinists such as David Lindley have long taken an interest in this kind of thing.
I'd not go so far as to say there is much of a culture or community involved with this, but I think there is at least a sense of 'fellow travellers'.

[Charlieshafer]

Really? OBA lists about 15 monthly jams, plus innumerable private jams in Portland alone. Multiply that across 50 states and innumerable towns and cities. I'm unaware of classical jams, but I may just be a bit uninformed in that area.


The poster was speaking specifically about classical mandolin orchestras in this case, so yeah, they're pretty rare! I know of one in Hadley, Mass., and one informal one that may be defunct in Connecticut. So they probably do average one per state at best. The appropriate contrast would be to compare that number with the number of informal but regularly meeting amateur classical string quartets. From baroque to modern composers, I bet there are about 30 of those in Connecticut alone, and my wife gets peppered with invites for more.

I know of about 8 classical guitar ensembles scattered about, but I'm not sure of how active they are. At any rate, mandolin orchestras are now small enough in number they're basically a sub-set of anything.

[Jim Imhoff]

I have no idea what you people are talking about.
That's OK, mandowilli. I am working with doctoral level music researchers, and we get caught up in jargon and lingo that has little to do with mandolin playing, but a lot to do with analyzing human behavior. It's stuff that is important to people who are interested in it, not to everyone. I don't talk about epistemology and phenomenology when I sit down to play, but I DO talk about these things when I supervise a student's doctoral dissertations. Sorry if I get carried away with research and philosophy in a site that is really designed for chat about the world's most perfect instrument. On the other hand, what I thought would be a short and obscure little post has got over a hundred replies. This clearly indicates a statistically significant propensity for critical thought with regard to the aesthetic, phenomenological, socio-semiotic, socio-cultural, epistemological, embodied-cognitive and writing skills of mandolin players. Who'd-a thunk??

[Jim Imhoff]

I know of about 8 classical guitar ensembles scattered about, but I'm not sure of how active they are. At any rate, mandolin orchestras are now small enough in number they're basically a sub-set of anything.
Okay, Okay, I yield. Mandolin Orchestras are rare; I guess it was the "extremely" that I questioned. And after my experience at Valley Forge CMSA I was all like "Wow, mandolin orchestras are all over the place!!" So, as we say in my native New Jersey, fuggetaboutit.
:mandosmiley:

[Jim Imhoff]

To give this a slightly different spin, some of us also play CBOM instruments at least as much as the mandolin itself, and I do sometimes feel a certain kinship with players of the bouzouki, the Cretan laouto,, the oud, the Afghan rubab, the Cuban laud etc etc.

What I'm getting at is that there are lots of instruments all over the world which are (in a sense) guitar-like, but in fact are probably closer to a variation of a mandolin or octave mandolin, especially when you consider the huge variety of different tunings people sometimes get into.
Even in the Celtic world alone there are a bunch of bouzouki and guitar tunings.

American guitarists and mandolinists such as David Lindley have long taken an interest in this kind of thing.
I'd not go so far as to say there is much of a culture or community involved with this, but I think there is at least a sense of 'fellow travellers'.

Good point--I play a Stuver F in m y bluegrass band, but a Gibson K2 mandocello in the orchestra; fiddle tunes on the Stiver, Bach and Mozart on the mandocello. Although recently I started working on Bach partitas on my Stiver.

[Mark Gunter]

Okay, Okay, I yield. Mandolin Orchestras are rare; I guess it was the "extremely" that I questioned. And after my experience at Valley Forge CMSA I was all like "Wow, mandolin orchestras are all over the place!!" So, as we say in my native New Jersey, fuggetaboutit.
:mandosmiley:

A case of "participant's bias" which has been alluded to in previous posts questioning your subjectivity. When you are part of a group participating in relatively rare or fringe activities, to have a meeting with 150 from around the world is a significant event, but bluegrass festivals, Star Trek conventions, vaping conventions have you beat hands down ;)

[foldedpath]

That's OK, mandowilli. I am working with doctoral level music researchers, and we get caught up in jargon and lingo that has little to do with mandolin playing, but a lot to do with analyzing human behavior. It's stuff that is important to people who are interested in it, not to everyone.

Speaking of academic studies, it would be fascinating to have an anthropologist's view of dominance hierarchies in a typical Irish trad pub session. Possibly someone familiar with primate behavior in the wild.

[JeffD]

To give this a slightly different spin, some of us also play CBOM instruments at least as much as the mandolin itself, and I do sometimes feel a certain kinship with players of the bouzouki, the Cretan laouto,, the oud, the Afghan rubab, the Cuban laud etc etc.


I see a Venn Diagram coming up. Wait for it....

[Bertram Henze]

Speaking of academic studies, it would be fascinating to have an anthropologist's view of dominance hierarchies in a typical Irish trad pub session. Possibly someone familiar with primate behavior in the wild.

Don't even try to get me started...~:>

[NursingDaBlues]

One serious question I need to ask first is this: Other than the common instrument, is there such a thing as the mandolin culture/community/society, or are there separate, unrelated social structures for bluegrass, classical, swing... and so on?

Well, yes and no.

First, the “no:“ It’s only coincidental that we play mandolins. Mandolin players as a whole are a very small group; so we tend to recognize other mandolin players as a unique kindred spirits. But that’s where the relationship probably ends. As a crude illustration, I owned a two-seater sports car in 1972; there weren’t many on the road, so invariably I would be acknowledged with a wave by other owners of the same make as we passed on the road. Trust me, as a long-haired hippie-type back then, I knew I had nothing in common with that sports car owners’ group other than a common make of car. More than likely, a classical mandolinist would have little in shared attitudes, practices, values, or goals (other than to be the best in their field) with, say, a jazz player, or a bluegrass player. A classical player may have high regard/respect for a player from another musical style; but it doesn’t mean that they would want to play in the same venues, explore the same musical history, or have the same social practices or conventions. Yes, there are some who successfully cross styles; but I’d say that they are few in number. Ordinarily, one has to immerse him/herself in a given style to be proficient in the nuances of that style.

Now, the “yes:” If there is a culture among mandolin players, it’s the perceived identity one attains through his/her mandolin or collection of mandolins. The Lloyd Loar owners; the Ellis owners; the ‘insert name here’ owners. If there is one common thread, it is the identity one assumes by name dropping what one owns or is looking to own. Rather using generic 'mandolin’ or 'mandocello,' you mention specific brands. I do the same in my conversations. It’s a natural thing to do. It indicates pride of possession. So, if any, there is a Gibson culture, a Collings culture, a custom mandolin culture, a vintage mandolin culture, et al. That’s where you see a set of shared attitudes, values, and goals.

Just my two-cents.

[Charlieshafer]

Speaking of academic studies, it would be fascinating to have an anthropologist's view of dominance hierarchies in a typical Irish trad pub session. Possibly someone familiar with primate behavior in the wild.

Ok, that's hysterical.

[LadysSolo]

I am late to this thread, but I play classical mandolin, and I also play in church, and for myself I play 60s-90s rock and roll while I sing (badly) with my instrument. The only mandolin "culture" I am a part of is the Café, there are no jams or anyone else I am aware of in this area.

[Petrus]

With the Cafe ball cap, there is also such a thing as "mandolin couture." :cool:

[Jim Imhoff]

With the Cafe ball cap, there is also such a thing as "mandolin couture." :cool:
But it ain't very haute.

[Jim Imhoff]

The only mandolin "culture" I am a part of is the Café, there are no jams or anyone else I am aware of in this area.
Where are you located?
Have you checked on Central Ohio Bluegrass Assoc, or CMSA (Classical)? I can't imagine there aren't some informal gatherings if you are looking for that. But nothing wrong with solo work!

[JeffD]

Even within the mandolin collecting subculture, there are different styles. Some play catch and release, and sell to buy. They eventually get to some really crazy nice mandolins, but I suspect they never stop looking. Think serial monogamy. Some try to amass one of every type of mandolin. A real collector type. Some try to fill up all the diverse needs of their different bands and gigs and need for spares and knockabouts. Some love a particular brand or model so much they just get more. Not a spare, really, more like a number one and another number one. Think devotion.

Me, I just fall in love and have intermittent impulse control. I am not sure I have a collection. Its more of an assemblage.

It is a mandolin subculture, in that we might kind of understand a guitar collector or a collector of euphoniums and lower brass, but we have more of an obsession with mandolins than with collecting.

[Jim Imhoff]

It is a mandolin subculture, in that we might kind of understand a guitar collector or a collector of euphoniums and lower brass, but we have more of an obsession with mandolins than with collecting.

I can't afford that; sold my Vega cylinder back mandocello and Gibson A so I could get the K2 cello. I also bought a $175 Ibanez mandolin for International travel so I didn't have to worry about customs thinking I had illegal wood or ivory. Hardly a collector! But I do know a guy in the orchestra who owns 4 or 5 mandocellos; he plays mandola in the orchestra.

[LadysSolo]

Doc, I am a member of CMSA, and the nearest jam I am aware of is almost 2 hours away. Kind of not really practical as it is on a Wed night and I am still working.......I live in NE Ohio, 2 1/2 to 3 hours to Columbus depending on where in Columbus, and 4 1/2 to 5 hours to Dayton/Cincinnati depending on where in those cities also.

[Jim Imhoff]

Doc, I am a member of CMSA, and the nearest jam I am aware of is almost 2 hours away. Kind of not really practical as it is on a Wed night and I am still working.......I live in NE Ohio, 2 1/2 to 3 hours to Columbus depending on where in Columbus, and 4 1/2 to 5 hours to Dayton/Cincinnati depending on where in those cities also.
That's sad. But...
If there are just 3 or 4 other people anywhere near you...or check at a local music store? Post a little note? I see craigslist community posts for people interested; I met my band's great fiddle player that way. Sometimes a local coffee shop or pub will host an open jam--maybe you can start one. Hope to see you at CMSA in Milwaukee!

[mando-len]

Doc
I think that is very interesting question. As a music lover and life long student of the mandolin , I find that I can separate mandolin crowd ( like many stringed instrument players) into different but related camps. One camp are the "instrument junkies, who's obsession with collecting their instruments often exceeds their abilities. Another camp are the "jaundraphytes" who obsess with one or two classifications of music styles and beat each other up over the "preservation" of those styles like specimens in a bottle. There are the" Jammers", who will accompany, fake, step on or noodle a tune with anybody anytime anywhere and after a bad night in the "pickers parking lot" swear never to return...until next week their dependency distorts there better judgment and return for another round (or 10). And finally...".musicians" who are...not perfect but practice, tune before playing, listen to others around them, know what they can (and more importantly cannot do) on their instrument and are more concerned about how it all sounds to the ears!

[Jim Imhoff]

One camp are the "instrument junkies, who's obsession with collecting their instruments often exceeds their abilities. Another camp are the "jaundraphytes" who obsess with one or two classifications of music styles and beat each other up over the "preservation" of those styles like specimens in a bottle.

Thanks mando-len, where did you get the term jaundraphytes? I love your taxonomy (not to be confused with taxidermy) of mandolin camps. I might be moving away from strictly mandolin players into a general comparison of a jam-class group and a mandolin orchestra, but it has been an interesting and very informative discussion.

[mandroid]

Leave a Petri dish open and see what develops..

[Jess L.]

Doc
I think that is very interesting question. As a music lover and life long student of the mandolin , I find that I can separate mandolin crowd ( like many stringed instrument players) into different but related camps. One camp are the "instrument junkies, who's obsession with collecting their instruments often exceeds their abilities. Another camp are the "jaundraphytes" who obsess with one or two classifications of music styles and beat each other up over the "preservation" of those styles like specimens in a bottle. There are the "Jammers", who will accompany, fake, step on or noodle a tune with anybody anytime anywhere and after a bad night in the "pickers parking lot" swear never to return...until next week their dependency distorts there better judgment and return for another round (or 10). And finally..."musicians" who are...not perfect but practice, tune before playing, listen to others around them, know what they can (and more importantly cannot do) on their instrument and are more concerned about how it all sounds to the ears!

(bold added)

:)) Lol! So true though. :) With some overlap between categories.

[chuck3]

I don't hang around with other mandolin players. I hang around with other musicians who need a mandolin player for their gigs.

I wouldn't mind hanging with other mando players but there aren't a lot around to do that with, compared with the number of other musicians in various genres who would like a mando to be part of the ensemble.

I do enjoy listening to mandolin in all different kinds of music, from bluegrass to classical to jazz. But as someone noted above - musicians who share a musical style are more likely to be of the same culture than musicians who happen to share an instrument. I'd say the same as a bass player, which is my other instrument.

[Jim Imhoff]

I don't hang around with other mandolin players. I hang around with other musicians who need a mandolin player for their gigs.

I wouldn't mind hanging with other mando players but there aren't a lot around to do that with, compared with the number of other musicians in various genres who would like a mando to be part of the ensemble.

I do enjoy listening to mandolin in all different kinds of music, from bluegrass to classical to jazz. But as someone noted above - musicians who share a musical style are more likely to be of the same culture than musicians who happen to share an instrument. I'd say the same as a bass player, which is my other instrument.

AGREED; I think the musician and musical genre bond seems to get more "votes" than a culture of the instrument itself. But there were some interesting points centered around "mandolin players" even in different styles.

[Tom Haywood]

And yes, "beliefs, conventions, values and social practices of particular groups" is what I am getting at.

There is something related to culture that I think comes from the unique nature of this instrument, as Scott mentioned earlier. Specifically, mandolins are really pretty expensive instruments to buy and are much less stable than probably most other music instruments. Most all buyers go through the same long process of determining which mandolin represents a good value for our available money at this point in our skill level, as well as what will work for us until we are ready to step up to a better one. Most of our instruments need set up adjustments from time to time when the weather changes, unlike e.g. guitars, and we need to find that rare person who knows how to do it. When something breaks, we need a specialist.

All of this requires that we seek out other mandolin owners to help inform our decisions as to what to buy, whether it needs a setup, and who can do the repair work. The community that develops from this does develop some shared beliefs, values, customs, and behaviors. We see it in all sorts of ways on the Cafe when someone asks a question and numerous replies give the same advice based on shared or similar beliefs and experience. When someone's advice is contrary to the standard offer, there is a recognized behavioral standard here of being courteous and polite, something that is valued due to its lack of existence on discussion sites about other instruments. I pay particular attention here to recommendations for appropriate expectations and behavior when dealing with a luthier, and especially when getting a mandolin specially made, and there seems to be a lot of agreement on this topic. I know other vendors and private sellers pay attention too to the expectations expressed here by buyers, so that certain trade customs have developed that are not strictly hard-nosed business customs.

Many of us seek out jam sessions where we can make contact with another mandolin player for the same purposes. I see a behavioral difference at jam sessions between guitar players and mandolin players. If a new guitar player shows up, the others generally pay little attention to him or her unless they are a super player or the guitar is something special. If a new mandolin player shows up, the other(s) show quite a lot of helpful attention and encouragement to the player regardless of the skill level or the brand. Having been treated this way, we pass it on to the next new player and a culture has developed.

[Bill Cameron]

That's a great line of thought (and linguistics was part of my doctoral dissertation). That colonial effect had a sort of static effect as well among the colonists. "L'Algiers est la France" was the cry among French colonial ex-pats in Algeria when France "abandoned" them and granted independence. They (the colonials) believed were the only "true" French. I also read that when Scottish musicians wanted to revive the old traditional styles, they went to NOVA Scotia in Canada, because the "colonials" tended to hold fast to old ways, whereas the homelanders evolved in a more natural way. When I did French Renaissance music with a choir, I learned that Quebecois was closer to "old" French than modern Parisian. Very helpful post--thanks!

I spend about half my time in Cape Breton, the part of Nova Scotia you are referring to. They read the history a bit differently, and the actual musical tradition there now supports their version of events. After major Scots immigration to CB in late 18th/early 19th century, the very strict Calvinist Presbyterian culture in 19th century Scotland prohibited fiddling, dancing, and god knows what else. Didnt happen in Cape Breton. That is why so much of the music was retained in Cape Breton and lost in Scotland, not some (I know you didnt mean to condescend, but...) "organic" evolution vs hidebound "colonials". In Cape Breton nowadays there is a huge Celtic music scene which includes (primarily) Scottish, Acadian and Irish elements and is a pressure-cooker of innovation, but also a scene where you can learn from very tradition-oriented players. One reason for that is that a filmmaker 40 years ago made a doc called "The Vanishing Cape Breton Fiddler" which put the whole music--fiddle and pipes-- community in a state of high dudgeon and they started organizing events to disprove the "vanishing" suggestion. Rather positive outcome.

I play mandolin at sessions all over Cape Breton, the instrument is not that uncommon but definitely seen as an adjunct and accompaniment to the fiddle--I am considered a bit weird for playing tunes not just chords, but everyone is very nice and I think they feel a bit sorry for my lack of fiddling skills. Lots of fiddlers play mandolin occasionally but it is a primary instrument for very few--I know one guy on the whole island and he is the fretted instrument specialist for a popular band, so needs mando, zouk, and guitar in every show...

[Dagger Gordon]

152970

Le front de liberation de la mandoline

[catmandu2]

There is something related to culture that I think comes from the unique nature of this instrument, as Scott mentioned earlier. Specifically, mandolins are really pretty expensive instruments to buy and are much less stable than probably most other music instruments. Most all buyers go through the same long process of determining which mandolin represents a good value for our available money at this point in our skill level, as well as what will work for us until we are ready to step up to a better one. Most of our instruments need set up adjustments from time to time when the weather changes, unlike e.g. guitars, and we need to find that rare person who knows how to do it. When something breaks, we need a specialist.
...

Interesting. In my experience, guitars require occasional truss-rod tweaks to correct for wood adjustments to environment: all that wood means greater vulnerability to climactic effects. Significantly less impact occurs in mandolins - in fact they are quite stable, relative to banjos, harps, woodwinds, strings, and all the other instruments I can think of (except perhaps brass-winds); short neck rarely requires adjustment, and common adjustable bridges (as opposed to fixed bridges on guitars) provide for quick and easy adjustment. But I would like to hear from those with contrary experience -

Wrt to "culture" - it's found wherever humans collect and communicate, to whatever extent or degree one cares to apply the term.

[JeffD]

AGREED; I think the musician and musical genre bond seems to get more "votes" than a culture of the instrument itself. But there were some interesting points centered around "mandolin players" even in different styles.

I am not sure.

I think, of the activities I am involved with, those I actively participate in are the stronger more immersive cultures I inhabit. I love music, but I love playing the mandolin more than I like any particular kind of music that I play on the mandolin. And if I go to a concert of music I am passionate about, it is likely that it does not feature the mandolin.

So in the musical genre cultures I am a passively (though passionately) entertained member. In the instrument culture I am an active participant. To me that is much more immersive.

But it is always dicey to generalize from personal experience.

[Lowlands Blue]

I love music, but I love playing the mandolin more than I like any particular kind of music that I play on the mandolin. And if I go to a concert of music I am passionate about, it is likely that it does not feature the mandolin.

A bit of topic, as I am not sure if I could add anything to the specific culture discussion, but I was just thinking yesterday that my passion for the instrument started with the sound of the instrument, and not the music that is generally played on it.
One of my favorite artists in The Netherlands uses a mando on some of his tracks which got me interested and motivated me to buy one. Only after that did I become obsessive about the genres of music where it is prominently featured.
The discovery of the mandolin gave me a new found love for music I did not listen to growing up, and also really made me grow as a musician.

[catmandu2]

The discovery of the mandolin gave me a new found love for music I did not listen to growing up, and also really made me grow as a musician.

Isn't that a beautiful thing. Musical instruments are such wonderful tools with which to probe the universe.

[Bertram Henze]

Musical instruments are such wonderful tools with which to probe the universe.

Largely agree - however, on some days I feel more probed than probing. I guess it's a two-way system, as usual.

[catmandu2]

Largely agree - however, on some days I feel more probed than probing. I guess it's a two-way system, as usual.

Absolutely. Don't forget - we are part of the universe ;)

[JeffD]

"Ouch! Hey buddy, watch it!"

[Jim Imhoff]

I spend about half my time in Cape Breton, the part of Nova Scotia you are referring to. They read the history a bit differently, and the actual musical tradition there now supports their version of events. After major Scots immigration to CB in late 18th/early 19th century, the very strict Calvinist Presbyterian culture in 19th century Scotland prohibited fiddling, dancing, and god knows what else. Didnt happen in Cape Breton. That is why so much of the music was retained in Cape Breton and lost in Scotland, not some (I know you didnt mean to condescend, but...) "organic" evolution vs hidebound "colonials".

Bill, Thanks for giving me a more local and detailed explanation. My information came from a linguistics and ethnomusical background, might be somebody's theoretical explanation of a phenomenon. Apart from this specific case (Nova Scotia) the colonial effect does influence language, particularly diction, and musical traditions, and sometimes, as in the case of French Colonials in Algiers, politics. By the way, wonderful memories of trips to NS when I lived near Canadian border, only disappointment I didn't see any whales. And a great source of music and musicians!

[Charlieshafer]

After major Scots immigration to CB in late 18th/early 19th century, the very strict Calvinist Presbyterian culture in 19th century Scotland prohibited fiddling, dancing, and god knows what else. Didnt happen in Cape Breton. That is why so much of the music was retained in Cape Breton and lost in Scotland, not some (I know you didnt mean to condescend, but...) "organic" evolution vs hidebound "colonials". .

While largely true, it is important to keep in mind that in Scotland, there was still a strong formal classical dance culture that kept the violin alive, and a huge number of fiddle tunes were originally pipe tunes, which was kept alive. Plus, you're talking an pretty interesting country in that there's a huge variation in what goes on in Glasgow or Edinburgh vs. the northern highlands and the islands. They don't exactly listen to what anyone says up there.

The other big difference in Cape Breton is the heavy reliance on the piano, not a necessity in Scotland. So, while each may try to claim their's is the "purest", well, good luck with absolutes in music.

[Bill Cameron]

While largely true, it is important to keep in mind that in Scotland, there was still a strong formal classical dance culture that kept the violin alive, and a huge number of fiddle tunes were originally pipe tunes, which was kept alive. Plus, you're talking an pretty interesting country in that there's a huge variation in what goes on in Glasgow or Edinburgh vs. the northern highlands and the islands. They don't exactly listen to what anyone says up there.

The other big difference in Cape Breton is the heavy reliance on the piano, not a necessity in Scotland. So, while each may try to claim their's is the "purest", well, good luck with absolutes in music.

The piano culture in Cape Breton was going to be my followup--since pianos became available in the early 20th century they became the primary accompaniment for fiddle tunes, and more than accompaniment--a very flashy style was developed, in fact. (It has been said that the most unique feature of Cape Breton fiddling is the piano playing). Because Cape Breton, like all Musical cultures, changes with the times according to available technology and the influence of certain innovators who figure out how to use the new elements. Nonetheless--and I'm not denying anything you said, Charlie, I'm not a historian or musicologist--there is music and playing styles existent in Cape Breton that are of interest to visiting Scots players who did in fact find tunes and Gaelic songs here that they hadnt heard in the motherland. but we're getting away from mando-talk.
Because there are certain similarities in timbre between mandolin and piano, --percussive string instruments--I regard the mandolin as a pocket piano...I will often follow the piano bass lines in a session if I dont know the tune. And occasionally when theres no piano, can substitute the mando in that way. But overall, the 3 session or performing-combo instruments you will always see in Cape Breton are fiddle, piano and guitar. Sadly, its not a mandolin culture, but fortunately, is open to contributions from players of pretty much anything, as long as they can keep up...bit of a devil-take-the-hindmost approach. But I like that.

[Astro]

Its the tuba culture that causes trouble. And when things get dicey, they hide in their case.

[Jim Imhoff]

I started this thread thinking about a case-study comparison of classical and bluegrass mandolin players, and I am amazed at the interest it spurred--approaching 150 comments. I have learned a lot, and will use some of this material in the paper I plan to write (I'll ask permission if I quote). The side-issue of musical cultures in post-colonial settings (here, mainly Cape Breton) is a topic for a whole different thread, wish I had more time to spend here. I have to refocus now on my original idea, which is a study involving a few local people. I will check in when I see a new post, but one thing is clear: mandolin players, at least the ones who check Mandolin Cafe, are a very interesting bunch of people--smart, thoughtful and articulate.
Does that constitute a culture? I know: "It depends on how you define culture". No further reply needed.