View Full Version : Not a Mandolin...But WHAT IS IT?
It is SMALL--13.5" long (total), 5" across. Very well made (not a toy). Friction tuning pegs. Well machined tailpiece. Bone(?) nut and bridge. Here are some pictures. Any help identifying it and how to tune it is greatly appreciated.
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fentonjames
Dec-10-2016, 9:32pm
some sort of pocket mandolin?
F-2 Dave
Dec-10-2016, 10:27pm
It's cute.
Bill Snyder
Dec-10-2016, 10:50pm
Miniature Jumping Flea.
multidon
Dec-11-2016, 8:07am
Measure the gauge of the strings on it with a digital caliper, and also measure the scale length (10 inches or so, I guess?), then use a string tension calculator to find out what tunings would give you a reasonable string tension, probably leaning towards the light side (15-17 pounds per string?). Zeroing in on the proper tuning might give you a clue as to the intended purpose.
Not a uke. Metal strings and not re-entrant. That is, the bottom string is thicker than the rest, not thinner. My guesses (and to be clear, just guesses, nothing more) are as follows. If the tuning ends up cgda, a miniature octave tenor guitar. If it ends up gdae, a pocket travel 4 string mandolin. If it ends up in any other tuning, your guess is as good as mine.
Bill Cameron
Dec-11-2016, 10:12am
I'm thinking, Mexican origin? Seems like you might see this as the smallest instrument in a strolling orchestra...but I cant find any pictures. Must not be using the right Search terms.
allenhopkins
Dec-11-2016, 1:38pm
Never seen a uke with floating bridge. There are a variety of small four-string instruments in Latin America, but I can't find one with a mandolin-esque body shape, plus floating bridge and tailpiece.
If it's not a one-of, ID eludes me.
Agreed Allen. Not a uke (loop end steel strings). It IS a mystery and many of my "expert" musico friends haven't figured it out yet. But we're having fun. Check out the book matching on the back.
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FLATROCK HILL
Dec-11-2016, 3:28pm
That last pic, the one with your hand holding it, adds even more to the mystery for me. I know you said it was SMALL and you gave the dimensions and I expected it was small, but... This is a much smaller instrument than I imagined (or you have ginormous hands)!
Never seen a mariachi band strolling around with anything like that.
fentonjames
Dec-11-2016, 4:09pm
1/2 sized mandolin, for wee lil tykes. why not? they make 3/4, 1/2, and 1/4 sized violins to learn on...
Jim Garber
Dec-11-2016, 5:16pm
A luthier can make whatever he/she or his/her customer wants. I would say it is some sort of hybrid instrument tho it could be tuned like a piccolo/soprano mandolin and tuned CGDA (a fourth above a mandolin). Like Allen, I thought it might be a soprano version of a Venezuelan quatro but those are usually uke/guitar-shaped.
multidon
Dec-11-2016, 5:20pm
Is that walnut?
I am now thinking it is an attempt at a 4 string travel/practice mandolin tuned gdae. Or, perhaps a 4 string version of a sopranolin like Weber's 8 string, tuned cgda an octave above a mandola. I am further guessing this is not a commercial product but from a single builder or small shop. Looks like pretty nice workmanship. You will need to figure out the string diameters, as I stated in my previous post, and the tensions with various turnings before you can play it. I am betting, what very it is, it is designed to be tuned in 5ths.
LadysSolo
Dec-11-2016, 6:08pm
Jim, I was thinking Venezuelan cuatro also. If so, they are fun instruments......
My friends in another thread have concluded it is a Portuguese machete...tuned d'-g-b-d". Precursor to the ukelele but steel strings. Looking for another example...but it seems possible...
multidon
Dec-11-2016, 10:49pm
Not buying the machete conclusion. Any that I have seen pictures of were invariably guitar shaped.
And the (re)search continues! I'm finding it a bit amazing that this is not settled...yet.
Jim Garber
Dec-12-2016, 11:02am
Not buying the machete conclusion. Any that I have seen pictures of were invariably guitar shaped.
Hmmm... Don, this machete is in the Metropolitan Museum collection (I love these and have talked to my luthier friend about making me one):
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And here is another example:
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I don't think that shape would necessarily be the ultimate clue but I would think more what kind of strings, how they would be tuned, and the way they transmit sound, i.e., the tailpiece and the bridge arrangement. And you can't really go by what strings are on it at this moment. It is possible that whoever had it may not have known what it was either or maybe used a different than standard tuning. For instance, these days many uke players do not use re-entrant tuning.
I think also what is throwing us off is the hybrid quality of this. Yes, wooden ukes generally do not have floating bridges but banjo ukes do. Weymann, for one, made what they called a lead banjo which was a four string banjo with small head and scale length of about 15". It could be played with nylon/gut strings as a uke or with steel as a piccolo banjo.
I still think this was made either as a mandolin for a child or else as a piccolo banjo tuned a fourth higher than a mandolin. Also, tho it does look well-made, the top is coarse grained and the ornamentation is pretty simple, which makes me think that is was a child's instrument.
Clem: can you tell us what the scale length is?
Jim/All: The scale length is 7 7/8". AND the red striping on the top is inlaid, not painted. Also, radiused fingerboard. If it is a child's instrument, it is a pretty serious one.
Jim Garber
Dec-12-2016, 1:55pm
Jim/All: The scale length is 7 7/8". AND the red striping on the top is inlaid, not painted. Also, radiused fingerboard. If it is a child's instrument, it is a pretty serious one.
Wow, that is a seriously short scale. The piccolo or soprano mandolin I have has a scale length of 10.5". A sopranino uke has 12" scale length and sopranissimo or pocket uke has an 11" scale length.
Another theory is that that is a sales sample to show the luthier's capability tho not sure that makes much sense. I can't imagine what tuning that short scale would be meant for or that the intonation would be accurate at that super-short scale length. I would say that this is not a standard anything.
At least it is bigger than the Cornell Nano-Guitar (http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/07/worlds-smallest-silicon-mechanical-devices-are-made-cornell)!
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allenhopkins
Dec-13-2016, 12:46am
Don't like the "machete" hypothesis; again, haven't seen one of those with a floating bridge and tailpiece.
Could well be a "one-of" made for a mandolinist who wanted a piccolo/practice/travel/child's instrument, sorta a Weber Sweet Pea type of mando family member.
Jess L.
Dec-14-2016, 1:51am
... you can't really go by what strings are on it at this moment ...
I'm inclined to agree, especially since the strings are inconsistently wound onto the pegs. Look closely at the 2nd string peg and the 1st string peg (enhanced pic below). The 2nd string is wound backwards compared to the 1st string. Not a 'normal' configuration among most musicians, I'd say, unless there was some extenuating circumstance... maybe they wanted to avoid having the 2nd string cross directly on top of the 1st string peg, which seems to be happening over on the other side where it looks like the 3rd string crosses over top of the 4th string post.
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multidon
Dec-14-2016, 8:57am
The more I think about this, the more I wonder if it was made to be played. Perhaps it was only meant to be decorative?
Or perhaps it was made as a novelty item? Or, if it is able to be played in some fashion, maybe made as a prop for a professional musician and/or showman? I can recall, as a child, seeing a show where a trumpet player did various musical tricks, such as playing three trumpets at once in three part harmony, and at one point in his show he produced an impossibly small trumpet from inside his coat and proceeded to play it. Perhaps this was a similar prop for a similar type of show, only a string player.
I think that if you spent some time with a string calculator you could come up with a set that would give you something that would play, after a fashion. I guess it doesn't really matter what it originally was. You could make it whatever you please, within what the laws of physics allow. I would just try not to stress it too much, keep the tensions as low as possible under the circumstances.
Just on a lark, I went over to Graham McDonald's string calculator and, using a standard 10-38 mandolin string set, on that impossibly small scale length, you end up with 5-5 1/2 pounds of tension on each string. Way to floppy to play. But I wonder, if you took that same set and tuned it up to cgda, an octave above standard mandola tuning, would it be playable like that? Further research is needed. But that would be a place to start.
One thing that hasn't been discussed is an examination of the interior. Is the top braced at all? What about the back. Does the interior construction lead one to believe it was designed to take strings under tension? Ifit was designed as a decorator piece, there would be no need to go to the trouble of putting bracing in. So lack of bracing means it probably is not a musical instrument meant to be played. If there is bracing, then it probably is meant to be played.
Jim says not to go by the strings that are on it. But the strings on it look very old, and corroded. To my eyes perhaps even old enough to be original. And they do not look like real musical strings to my eye, but just some sort of twisted wire. And it's hard to see in the photos, but to me it looks like at least some of the strings are semi permanently attached to the top of the tailpiece via some kind of clip or staple. That all sounds like decorator piece to me.
The more I think about this, the more I wonder if it was made to be played. Perhaps it was only meant to be decorative?
Or perhaps it was made as a novelty item? Or, if it is able to be played in some fashion, maybe made as a prop for a professional musician and/or showman? I can recall, as a child, seeing a show where a trumpet player did various musical tricks, such as playing three trumpets at once in three part harmony, and at one point in his show he produced an impossibly small trumpet from inside his coat and proceeded to play it. Perhaps this was a similar prop for a similar type of show, only a string player.
I think that if you spent some time with a string calculator you could come up with a set that would give you something that would play, after a fashion. I guess it doesn't really matter what it originally was. You could make it whatever you please, within what the laws of physics allow. I would just try not to stress it too much, keep the tensions as low as possible under the circumstances.
Just on a lark, I went over to Graham McDonald's string calculator and, using a standard 10-38 mandolin string set, on that impossibly small scale length, you end up with 5-5 1/2 pounds of tension on each string. Way to floppy to play. But I wonder, if you took that same set and tuned it up to cgda, an octave above standard mandola tuning, would it be playable like that? Further research is needed. But that would be a place to start.
One thing that hasn't been discussed is an examination of the interior. Is the top braced at all? What about the back. Does the interior construction lead one to believe it was designed to take strings under tension? Ifit was designed as a decorator piece, there would be no need to go to the trouble of putting bracing in. So lack of bracing means it probably is not a musical instrument meant to be played. If there is bracing, then it probably is meant to be played.
Jim says not to go by the strings that are on it. But the strings on it look very old, and corroded. To my eyes perhaps even old enough to be original. And they do not look like real musical strings to my eye, but just some sort of twisted wire. And it's hard to see in the photos, but to me it looks like at least some of the strings are semi permanently attached to the top of the tailpiece via some kind of clip or staple. That all sounds like decorator piece to me.
The top and back are both fully braced--top has at least two (one just past the end of the fingerboard and the other under the bridge area; two on the back-one visible through the sound hole and one across the lower bout). The strings are not permanently attached in any way and are "real musical strings" (but very old). See images below. I do agree that the peg winding is not "professional" but I don't think that sheds light on the issues at hand.
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allenhopkins
Dec-14-2016, 6:22pm
With that tailpiece, it was obviously designed for loop-end steel strings; no way to tie nylon/gut strings on, no way to accommodate ball-ends either.
From what I can see, mandolin-family, based on several design elements. Arched fretboard is a bit more of a puzzle; not unheard-of, for sure, but not common in "folk" mandolins.
multidon
Dec-14-2016, 9:42pm
The top and back are both fully braced--top has at least two (one just past the end of the fingerboard and the other under the bridge area; two on the back-one visible through the sound hole and one across the lower bout). The strings are not permanently attached in any way and are "real musical strings" (but very old). See images below. I do agree that the peg winding is not "professional" but I don't think that sheds light on the issues at hand.
Well then, that being the case, you don't have anything to lose by trying some light gauge mandolin strings on it, and see what you get. You could start with mandolin tuning, but you will find it too floppy to be playable. then just sneak the tension up a bit at a time, until you get a playable note. Then see what notes you have. I bet cgda would work, a 4th above mandolin, when using mandolin strings. What do I have to go on? Absolutely nothing! But my guess is as good as anyone else's at this point. If this thing was mine, that's how I would proceed. YMMV.
What a kick it would be at a gig to put away your regular axe, pull this out from under your coat, and start wailing' on it!
I'm going to go with piccolo mandolele or
sopranino mandolele. It would be tuned GDAE, and be small like a uke.
Or it was a poor man's mandolin; the builder saved on wood and strings...?
I'm inclined to agree, especially since the strings are inconsistently wound onto the pegs. Look closely at the 2nd string peg and the 1st string peg (enhanced pic below). The 2nd string is wound backwards compared to the 1st string. Not a 'normal' configuration among most musicians, I'd say, unless there was some extenuating circumstance... maybe they wanted to avoid having the 2nd string cross directly on top of the 1st string peg, which seems to be happening over on the other side where it looks like the 3rd string crosses over top of the 4th string post.
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While there is no consistence, I had a friend with a Flamenco guitar with violin tuners that would wind the two E's backwards. It kept them straighter thru the nut and was easier tuning.
Mark Gunter
Mar-20-2017, 11:27am
I would think it's a custom one-off child's instrument or a decorative instrument, maybe used in a comedic minstrel show, as previously suggested. Why so well made? Probably a requirement of the customer - or perhaps something a luthier required of his apprentice.
You may never have an answer, but it's a fun conversation piece that elicits plenty of conjecture!
MikeEdgerton
Mar-20-2017, 12:13pm
The tailpiece is pretty impressive. It had to be a one off. It almost looks like a violin player wanted something to use a plectrum on instead of a bow. It looks pretty serious.
Steve Ostrander
Mar-20-2017, 12:40pm
Obviously it's a Schmergel Mini-Devastator.
allenhopkins
Mar-20-2017, 2:57pm
Obviously it's a Schmergel Mini-Devastator.
Sacrilege!!
dhergert
Mar-20-2017, 3:07pm
Obviously it's a Schmergel Mini-Devastator.
No, those have 5 strings (four long and one short) and a skin or plastic head.
:mandosmiley:
allenhopkins
Mar-20-2017, 9:16pm
No, those have 5 strings (four long and one short) and a skin or plastic head.
Heresy!!
Petrus
Mar-20-2017, 10:55pm
Not buying the machete conclusion. Any that I have seen pictures of were invariably guitar shaped.
Yep, I had one briefly. It had a tendency to go sharp.
JackCO
Mar-23-2017, 1:56pm
Yep, I had one briefly. It had a tendency to go sharp.
Nice one :))
Jim Garber
Mar-23-2017, 2:13pm
Yeah, but it had a good chop and was a nice axe. :)
Mark Miller
Mar-24-2017, 3:30pm
Late comer to this thread. Nothing to add, except, holy c@#$ this is one strange story. Seems like someone put serious work and care into this, but why? Is it an alien artifact? My tinfoil hat must be around here somewhere....
ollaimh
Mar-28-2017, 8:41pm
i am with the portuguese connection but probably azori, the azori lutheirs often made round body instruments that were made with guitar shaped bodies on the mainland. i once had one like that but twice the size. i sold it to a portuguese friend. the label said it was made in the azores..
bratsche
Mar-29-2017, 12:21pm
It is cute. But a 7 7/8" scale? I don't know how it could be anything but a child's instrument, or a miniature meant for display. I would think it humanly impossible for an adult to play anything that small. Heck, I have trouble with a 13" scale mandolin (but then, I can't fathom how people can type with their thumbs on a 5" phone screen, either. I'd have to use my pinkies, and even then would probably accidentally type double-letters!)
bratsche
JeffD
Mar-29-2017, 12:33pm
I see this theory has been posited. I think it really might be a piccolo mandolin. The most beautiful example of which I found Joseph Cleary makes over at Campanella (http://www.campanellastrings.com/piccolo-mandolin/). MAS indeed.
tonydxn
Apr-05-2017, 2:40pm
I'm very late to this party but here's my two penny-worth. My first mandolin was a Portuguese one I bought in a pawn-shop in London around 1970 (it sounded fantastic). I've been fascinated with Portuguese instruments ever since. This has several typically Portuguese features. First, the bone bridge which stands up on two feet. Second, the hefty tailpiece with pointed posts, held on by a single big knurled screw. Third, no binding and the purfling inset from the edge of the soundboard. Fourth, a very thick radiused fingerboard. So, for my money, it couldn't be anything but Portuguese. Sorry I can't answer the OP's question, 'What is it?' but I do know the Portuguese have all kinds of instruments which are unique to them.