View Full Version : Leap of faith
With all the threads out there asking which mandolin should I buy, I've come to the conclusion it really comes down to luck in many ways. When I was looking to upgrade to the $1000-1500 range used, I never found one even in my SF Bay Area that has a pretty decent mandolin marketplace. Yes, I could try new Kentucky mandos, and even MT Collings, but try to find an MT for $1500. I also found a Pava, but not the base model, and a Girourd, all new, but not any of the Weber, Ratcliff, Rigel, etc. A styles that met my budget.
I ended up buying a Silverangel that showed up in the classifieds, based mostly on the affordability. Pretty much everyone likes their mandolin in this price range. Very few post how their Weber or anything else sucks.
That I am overjoyed with my purchase is really just luck, and I really don't and may never know if I'd like a Weber, vintage Gibson, Ratliff, or Northfield better. Chances are I'll never get them in one place to try.
I can only be glad that the quality level is so high, most any of them probably would have made me happy.
If I understand you, you are saying getting something in our price range that we do like is luck, because the variables between and among makes and models, and that it doesn't matter anyway because we have a tendency to like and defend what we bought whatever it is. So get what you can afford, as it doesn't matter anyway.
I think that is what you mean anyways. My bad if I got it wrong.
In the price range you mention there are many good choices. Not that it is impossible to go wrong, but it is kind of difficult. I think the more we play and listen and play and listen to these eight string wonders, the more we develop personal preferences as to playability and feel, tone and responsiveness, etc. Above an entry level price, its more about how a mandolin meets up with our preferences, and not as much whether its good or bad or better or worse.
And once purchased, often enough, the actual mandolin in our actual hands, well... our preferences can go through some rapid evolution. Things we hadn't considered before, or changing, (hopefully improving) our technique over time and our preferences hadn't caught up but this new mandolin matches better what we want to be as a player. And like that.
Yea there is a tendency to want to believe we chose wisely and so our own feelings get biased and we like and defend whatever we bought. But I think that tendency is small in comparison to the experience of a mandolin we bought because of availability - budget - lack of impulse control :) but that we find fits us in ways we had not previously considered.
My over caffeinated thoughts anyway.
Bertram Henze
Nov-06-2016, 2:16pm
Leaps of faith often turn out to be good decisions, not just with mandolins. Wasting time with hesitation that yields no further data is always worse than that.
fernmando
Nov-06-2016, 5:25pm
There are those who believe that you can "play your tone" into an instrument if it has a minimal amount of promise to begin with. In other words, you grow together. I firmly believe that. As to the Silverangel, you simply cannot go wrong at your specified price point.
Roscoe Morgan
belbein
Nov-06-2016, 7:43pm
Leaps of faith often turn out to be good decisions, not just with mandolins. Wasting time with hesitation that yields no further data is always worse than that.
Except that, due deliberation sometimes DOES give further data. The difference between "time-wasting hesitation" and "due deliberation" is, I suggest, largely a matter of what the ex post facto result turns out to be. I could give you all kinds of examples for sports, war, politics, and various other areas, but will spare you.
I used to say that I had excellent gut instincts, until I became aware of the comparative results (in the context of hiring staff, where I batted about .500). Once I paid attention to the results, it turned out that as many of my intuitive "leaps of faith" turned out not-incredibly-great, as turned out well. It's true that some of my intuitive epiphanies have been truly awesome ... but some of my intuitive judgments couldn't have been more wrong.
I think we remember the good guesses and congratulate ourselves and dis-remember the bad choices, and then conclude that our "gut" is excellent. (Though I find, by the way, that spouses are great at reminding one about the true batting average...)
Jim Garber
Nov-06-2016, 8:25pm
I lucked out over the years buy buying multiple instruments and then selling off the ones that didn't quite fit with what I wanted. More like a catch a release thing. Certainly it is luck buying something sight-unseen but in my case I cast a very wide net and then culled out the ones that I like. I have been doing this for over 4 decades. It works for me!
Bertram Henze
Nov-07-2016, 1:35am
The difference between "time-wasting hesitation" and "due deliberation" is, I suggest, largely a matter of what the ex post facto result turns out to be.
There is an important difference in about what information is needed:
- is it about properties of the item you'd buy or not? Or...
- is it about yourself and what you really want deep down in your heart?
You can run out of data with the former and be forced to take the plunge to find out more, but you'll never run out of data with the latter (often, I have taken to quiet deliberation to "let the fit pass" and buy nothing - and was glad I did so later).
almeriastrings
Nov-07-2016, 2:10am
It is not really 'luck' as such that sees certain mandolins consistently recommended here for their quality and value, whether they are a beginner's model KM-150, or higher specified instruments from other builders and manufacturers. Neither is it 'luck' that Silverangel mandolins are fine instruments in their own right, and are highly respected. That is down to the fact they are hand-built by a skilled and experienced luthier using very high grade materials. So - it would be 'luck' if you just found a mandolin, any mandolin, priced at say $1200 on Ebay and simply purchased it at random, regardless of what it was (it might be an over-priced, gaudy MK), but not 'luck' if you had narrowed things down already to certain builders and models that were known to be top performers in their price bracket. As to the general premise that it is hard to go wrong with a Silverangel, Collings or higher end Kentucky, Pava, Weber (etc.), that's generally confirmed by multiple user reports.
The Silverangel's are great mandolins, so while the others do have different voicings, whether one can class them as "better" or "worse" is pretty much entirely down to personal taste and preferences.
Ivan Kelsall
Nov-07-2016, 3:20am
I can't remember exactly who the person was,but i think it was a well known golfer. He hit a superb shot & somebody remarked that it was a ''lucky shot''. His reply was ''it seems the more i practice,the 'luckier'' i get''.. You can apply that situation to any good luthier (IMHO). The more they build & perfect their skills,the higher quality they atain - ''luck'' doesn't come into it,except maybe that you like the instrument = it suits your taste re. sound & playability.
Almeria has it right. If it had just been 'any' mandolin & not one by such a good luthier,then maybe you might not have been so 'lucky'. Right now,we're all 'lucky' - we have ranges of mandolins to suit all players of all standards at many price levels. I think somebody on here mentioned that maybe we're in the ''Golden era'' of mandolin building - it seems like it to me when i see some of the awesome mandolins available. What's not so awesome is my inability to buy 'em all !!!,:(
Ivan;)
I guess if I put it succinctly, the average Joe will never get the six or so brands he's considering in one place at one time,so you pay your money and take your chances.
But chances are you will like what you get, kind of like buying Swiss chocolate, whatever brand you buy will be good.
Mandoplumb
Nov-07-2016, 6:16am
It is said here over and over playing the instrument is the only sure fire way to judge it. My first mandolin was an Aria Pro 2 that cost me $400. It really was an upgrade because I had been playing several years on my dads " homemade" mandolin while I lived at home, anyway I got to a point where I could spend about $1000 for a upgrade if I sold the Aria.this was before the Internet and I traveled miles from home when I got information on a mandolin in that price range to check out. The problem was I had a very good Aria so I had to find a very good whatever to be an upgrade. I played several $1000 instruments that would be downgrading from my $400 Aria. Now I know that there are more mandolins being made by good PAC rim manufacturers and individual builders now than in the 70's but still the dollars you spend are not the sole factor in upgrading if you consider an upgrade to be a better playing better sounding mandolin
belbein
Nov-07-2016, 7:19am
I lucked out over the years buy buying multiple instruments and then selling off the ones that didn't quite fit with what I wanted. More like a catch a release thing. Certainly it is luck buying something sight-unseen but in my case I cast a very wide net and then culled out the ones that I like. I have been doing this for over 4 decades. It works for me!
I'm pretty good with the "catch" part regarding musical instruments. Not so good with the "release."
belbein
Nov-07-2016, 7:21am
There is an important difference in about what information is needed:
- is it about properties of the item you'd buy or not? Or...
- is it about yourself and what you really want deep down in your heart?
You can run out of data with the former and be forced to take the plunge to find out more, but you'll never run out of data with the latter (often, I have taken to quiet deliberation to "let the fit pass" and buy nothing - and was glad I did so later).
Completely agree in theory. In practice ... really difficult to distinguish. Though having to figure out how to explain why I need another mandolin does act as a rationalizing factor.
Austin Bob
Nov-07-2016, 8:41am
In the mandolin world, it is often difficult to play all the instruments available, especially in the used market.
The same is true if you request a new build. Sure, the last build may have been great, but all instruments are different, and the next one, for whatever reason, may not sound the way you like.
There's a lot of folks who will only buy an instrument after they've played it, but I did the same as you and bought mine sight unseen (new) from TMS. I got a great mandolin as well, but I was willing to return it and eat the shipping cost if needed. I had three days to sit in the same room I normally practice in, and play it as much as I wanted without worrying about anyone looking over my shoulder, or listening to me as I tested the intonation for the 12th time as it settled in.
I would buy my next mandolin, new or used, sight unseen as well. But I would make sure I had the return policy from the seller in writing, and I would also make sure that I would not be liable for return shipping if the instrument had a major defect that the seller did not disclose.
I'm glad you got a keeper. We are lucky in that there are a lot of great mandolins out there, which was not the case 30 years ago when I started playing.
Mandoplumb
Nov-07-2016, 8:42am
Completely agree in theory. In practice ... really difficult to distinguish. Though having to figure out how to explain why I need another mandolin does act as a rationalizing factor.
Why do I need another mandolin? Because it's there!
red7flag
Nov-07-2016, 9:08am
I am a real believer in the gut feeling. I have had logic and analysis fail me, but my gut feelings never do. The problem is that they require patience. More often than not when I am indecisive, I will try to think it out, usually with disastrous results. For me , when I am not sure, I need to do more looking. Applied to instruments, I really need to try them out, when possible. if I am stuck between two, then it I best for me to hold off. Not being a patient person by nature, holding off is not easy. My gut answers have worked best in both instruments and relationships. As an instrument involves a relationship, I guess this makes sense. Leaps of faith, work when a level of trust is established. This works well when I commission an instrument from a quality builder that I trust. I would not apply leaps of faith to lower level instruments where quality can be questionable.
michaelcj
Nov-07-2016, 9:11am
When your "try it out options" are limited by location sometimes a bit of luck does enter the equation.
When I decided to upgrade [from a "the loar"] I had a similar $$ limit to the OP.
I decided to limit my search to the classifieds here on the forum…. and focused on an A model.
The "Luck" for me came with a particular seller who shared the same profession, was open to phone conversations, and was certainly far beyond me as a mandolin player. Trust is a cool thing.
Ended up with a 20 year old Ratliff RA5 in mint condition at the lower edge of my stated price range.
Teamed up with my 1919 Gibson A2, and Clark Octave, my MAS is in complete remission.
Though having to figure out how to explain why I need another mandolin does act as a rationalizing factor.
I can't even explain why I need the first mandolin. It seems, in terms of real need, as ridiculous as the second one.
Mark Gunter
Nov-08-2016, 11:41pm
Right now,we're all 'lucky' - we have ranges of mandolins to suit all players of all standards at many price levels. I think somebody on here mentioned that maybe we're in the ''Golden era'' of mandolin building
Hear hear! +1
Mark Gunter
Nov-08-2016, 11:46pm
Why do I need another mandolin? Because it's there!
151053
Ivan Kelsall
Nov-09-2016, 3:05am
From red7flag - "I am a real believer in the gut feeling..". Me too Tony !. That's what i had about my 'larger than standard' Lebeda. When i first got it (used),it was as tight as a drum & more than a bit unresponsive. My 'gut feeling' was that here was a mandolin that really needed playing in to get it sounding it's best. Over the first several months i played the a** off it & it began to sound very much better. However,it wasn't until i tried the DR MD11 strings that i now use on it,that it really did sound terrific. As i say,it's larger & also 3/4 lb heavier than my Weber or Ellis & really needs a powerful string to 'drive' it. In the long term,my faith in it's paid off,
Ivan;)