A versus F Style Mandolin for Bluegrass playing

[Michael Donnel]

I have read a few wiki pages and so forth on the A and F style mandolins. The physical differences are obvious. I have never owned or played one, only guitar, so for playing Bluegrass I am sure the A style works just fine with the only difference in the vibrancy of the sound. So if you compare mandolins to guitars the F-Style would be more like a cutaway guitar allowing for playing further on the neck? I also know that while a F style is great the A styles give more bang for the buck. What are some great A styles in a solid body with a fairly decent setup out of the box? Something $500 or less. Thank you

[MikeEdgerton]

You'd be hard pressed to tell the difference in sounds between an A and an F made by the same builder in a blind test. The big difference is the built in strap hanger on the F. The differences are the aesthetics. The cutaway guitar comparison doesn't hold. You won't gain anything on the F over the A on how easy it is to get to the top reaches of the neck.

If you're looking for solid wood A styles I'm partial to the Kentucky models but Eastman makes a decent mandolin as well. You'll get some more answers shortly from the entire community. Welcome to the Cafe.

[JeffD]

There should be no difference in the vibrancy of the sound. There is no sound difference attributable to the shape A or F. Or, another way to say it, the differences between two As or two Fs could be greater than the difference between an A or an F style body.

I see you play guitar. One rule of thumb that is generally true enough is that a mandolin costs about twice as much as a guitar of comparable quality. There are always exceptions of course, but that is a good way to set your expectations. In other words, you know from experience what you can get in a $250 guitar - that is about the quality to expect, give or take, in a $500 mandolin.

I will now relinquish the thread to those recommending the mandolins like the ones they have purchased. :)

Seriously, there are a bunch of threads on recommendations for first time mandolins that you can search for, with all kinds of folks weighing in.


Welcome to our obsession.

[FLATROCK HILL]

I have read a few wiki pages and so forth on the A and F style mandolins. The physical differences are obvious. I have never owned or played one, only guitar, so for playing Bluegrass I am sure the A style works just fine with the only difference in the vibrancy of the sound. So if you compare mandolins to guitars the F-Style would be more like a cutaway guitar allowing for playing further on the neck? I also know that while a F style is great the A styles give more bang for the buck. What are some great A styles in a solid body with a fairly decent setup out of the box? Something $500 or less. Thank you

Hi Michael... I see your question is your first post. Welcome!
My best advice is for you to use the 'search' or 'advanced search' functions on this site. By inputting different key words, you will find enough discussion about your topic to keep you reading for a long, long time. I hope that doesn't sound like some sort of impolite answer. It's not meant to be.
Good luck with your search. And good luck finding a definitive answer to your question(s)! :)

[Ron McMillan]

Michael, what many people take forever to realise (it only took me a few years :) ) is that the body of an F model is internally almost identical to that of an A. The scroll and the other spiky bits are only add-ons to the outside of what is effectively an A model body. They are solid, therefore add zero to the internal volume (volume as in cubic inches/cubic centimetres) and have absolutely no effect on the other kind of volume (loudness).

[sblock]

A5 models and F5 models differ in aesthetics and appointments; they do not differ in sound. Not one bit -- and that is the consensus of practically all the experts. If you are starting out and budget-limited, therefore, always start with an A model to maximize the sound quality for your money.

At the $500 price point -- new -- there are several halfway decent PacRim A5 models to choose from (f-holes, solid top), including offerings from Kentucky (KM150, KM250), The Loar (LM220, LM400), and Eastman (MD305) -- and more. My advice would be to buy something from trusted mandolin dealer with a solid reputation on the Mandolin Cafe (see the ads on the MC home page for several of these!) who will set up this mandolin for you, because a professional-level set-up is absolutely paramount for the mandolin. Avoid buying anything from big box music stores, even if their prices are a bit lower, because they have a poor track record when it comes to set-ups, and most of their in-house technicians know only about guitars, not mandolins.

Or you can buy used, and stretch your dollar even farther! Check out the MC classifieds; there are A5 models for sale there all the time, and many are in your price range, including slightly better models from Kentucky, The Loar, Eastman, etc. than those available new. But be sure to set aside $150 or so for a set-up, because it might need it.

[Denny Gies]

Listen to Mike.

[Br1ck]

Be advised that some bluegrass players you might be jamming with will believe you don't have the right instrument if you show up with an A style. Not your problem really. Kind of like playing jazz on a Tele. No good reason not to.

[Folkmusician.com]

What are some great A styles in a solid body with a fairly decent setup out of the box? Something $500 or less. Thank you

$500 is enough to get you a nice A style Mandolin.

The main Choices will be Kentucky, The Loar and Eastman.

Specific models under $500:
Eastman 305
Kentucky KM-150
The Loar LM-220

Setup out of the box. If you mean from the factory, no mandolins have good setup until you get into the high-end ($2000 starting price) instruments that are sold in the country they are made. Even the best instruments don't like sea voyages and warehouses. This can expose the mandolin to months of harsh conditions. Instruments sit in warehouses while container loads are consolidated, then 3 weeks at sea, then get stuck at docks, then to another warehouse. Setups (especially fret work), do not survive this very well. We tend to get imports 4-6 months after they are made. Minimal setup is done before they go to dealers. In other words, dealers receive instruments that have a good deal of issues that need to be resolved. There are only a handful of imports that receive anything past the most basic setups at the US warehouses before going to dealers. These still need more work as well.

Point being, there are no sub $500 mandolins that will not need setup work. You typically have the option of getting the mandolin from a discounted source and handling the setup after you receive it, or paying more and getting it from a dealer that does the work.

[Mark Wilson]

What are some great A styles in a solid body with a fairly decent setup out of the box? Something $500 or less. Thank youSolid body or hollow body made out of solid wood?

[mcgroup53]

Sorry, but there is a difference between an A and F body sound. The F has more mass due to the scroll and points, which does create a stiffer top and in general a meatier sound than an A. That said, A's are almost always a better choice in your price range since the extra cost of the scroll, headstock, binding, etc., have little to do with the sound in instruments at that level. Buy an A. All the cool kids like Joe Walsh are doing it!

[Br1ck]

If you can stand to wait, The Mandolin Store and others will have factory blems available at very attractive prices. Best bang for the buck in a new instrument, and flaws will be very minor.

Other than that, used instruments show up when people like me upgrade. I sold an Eastman MD 505 recently for $450.

Nice Eastman just posted today in classifieds.

[Phil Goodson]

Michael, what many people take forever to realise (it only took me a few years :) ) is that the body of an F model is internally almost identical to that of an A. The scroll and the other spiky bits are only add-ons to the outside of what is effectively an A model body. They are solid, therefore add zero to the internal volume (volume as in cubic inches/cubic centimetres) and have absolutely no effect on the other kind of volume (loudness).

I agree with your overall assessment of sound, but, to be accurate, although points are solid, most scroll designs are semi-solid and do add a small (probably negligible) bit of air volume to the inside.

[JAK]

Hans Brentrup once told me that, "F models have more authority."

[Tom Sanderson]

Sorry, but there is a difference between an A and F body sound. The F has more mass due to the scroll and points, which does create a stiffer top and in general a meatier sound than an A.


I totally agree

[REH1966]

If you are looking at going used, don't rule out pawn shops either. I was able to get a KM150 for a really good price. Still had to pay to have it set up but combined I still think I came out very well. As to A style over F, I have no idea about which is better. I still haven't learned to play mine. And yes I do want to get an F at some point.

[Northwest Steve]

There are some terrific players that play A style mandolins and they sound great.

[dhergert]

I have read a few wiki pages and so forth on the A and F style mandolins. The physical differences are obvious. I have never owned or played one, only guitar, so for playing Bluegrass I am sure the A style works just fine with the only difference in the vibrancy of the sound. So if you compare mandolins to guitars the F-Style would be more like a cutaway guitar allowing for playing further on the neck? I also know that while a F style is great the A styles give more bang for the buck. What are some great A styles in a solid body with a fairly decent setup out of the box? Something $500 or less. Thank you

You probably have seen it as you look around here in the Café forums... The elephant in the room is this thread:

$199.00 solid F style mandolin (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?126826-199-00-solid-F-style-mandolin)


The problem I have with a wholesale recommendation of this is that the MKLFSTB mandolins which are discussed in this "$199.00..." thread can be quite a handful -- they are restocks, which may mean any level of mostly visual flaws may be present, but more importantly they consistently require significant setup work to get them playing properly.

In particular, the three of these mandolins that I've ordered, as well as some mentioned in that thread by other buyers, have arrived with high frets above fret 12 and so there is an expectation that they really need fret leveling and fret dressing as a part of their setup.

That happens to be something I'm good at so it hasn't been a big issue for me, but not everyone is ready to do this kind of detailed setup work -- this work really isn't a job for most people who are brand new to the mandolin world.

What I can say is that after having had a detailed setup -- including nut filing for string height and string positioning; including bridge adjustment for height, seating, groove location, groove depth and intonation; including fret leveling and fret dressing; including installing new strings; including adjusting the truss rod and tightening all the screws; and including general cleanup and going over the instrument with a fine tooth comb -- these mandolins do tend to sound very good. But it can be a whole lot of work to get to that point.


What I would really feel safe making a wholesale recommendation about is what others here have suggested: there are some extremely reliable vendors, supporters of the Café, who not only sell new mandolins but who also do an extremely detailed setup on them before the mandolins go out their door. At least one of these vendors has contributed to this particular discussion thread with some very helpful, extremely objective thoughts. So in my mind, the safest recommendation would be to talk with this kind of vendor.

-- Don

[Paul Hird]

Tim O'Brien comes to mind.

[Matt Long]

I lurked these forums and classifieds for a while hunting--like you--for a good, affordable mandolin. I'd inherited my great-grandmother's teens-era Vega bowlback, played a few tunes and some Bach on it, and even with the high notes way out of tune I still got the bug (and I don't mean tater bug :) ) I do want to give a huge thanks to all of you folks who make these forums awesome. I learned a ton of useful info.

What I ended up getting was not at all what I expected. I'd checked some prices for Kentuckys on Amazon at one point but didn't want to buy from them because of the setup issue. One Sunday morning I had an email from them that a new Kentucky KM-900 was on sale for around $650. That's about $300-$350 off from the normal price, so I jumped on it.

The first one I received had a tailpiece so crooked that the E string was coming out the side instead of the top. I sent it back and got another one a few days later that was great. I found a luthier in my area--Jim Pensen in Arlington, TX (nfi)--who did a fantastic job setting it up. It now sounds amazing and plays like a dream. Jim told me I could have paid Gibson 5x the price for a mandolin that sounds about the same. It is an A style. I had already tried decent F-styles at stores and I honestly could not tell a difference in sound quality between those and comparable A-styles, just the different appearance and where you hang the strap.

All that to say, while you're shopping around, you might put that Kentucky 900 in your Amazon wishlist just in case they drop the price again. I've seen a few other folks on here who have landed that exact same deal recently. In their creepy Big Brother way, if Amazon knows you've been looking at an item, they'll let you know when it goes on sale. Not sure how often this particular sale happens, though, so it would probably involve some waiting. Maybe a lot of waiting...

Like Robert Fear said, you would definitely need to get one set up by a luthier if it comes from a chain store, which adds another $40-80 to the price. Before mine was set up, the action felt like a $75 guitar I used to torture myself with in high school :) But it's a steal if you can snag it that cheap.

If you don't have any luthiers/shops you can get to, then I'd say buy something from one of the folks on this forum. The three models Robert Fear recommended all get good reviews, and you know you'll get a winner with a great setup if you buy from him or one of the sellers on this site. There's also a lot of eye candy in the classifieds, and some nice A models that get down in your price range.

Good luck and happy hunting!

--Matt

[Joe Mendel]

There isn't a lot of difference in sound between A & F, a good one of either shape will sound good, maybe a little different, but good.

[Tom Sanderson]

There isn't a lot of difference in sound between A & F, a good one of either shape will sound good, maybe a little different, but good.

I agree. I say have the best of both worlds and get one of each :grin:

[fernmando]

Jimmy Bryant ate everybody's lunch with a Tele in the early 50s :)

[fernmando]

Be advised that some bluegrass players you might be jamming with will believe you don't have the right instrument if you show up with an A style. Not your problem really. Kind of like playing jazz on a Tele. No good reason not to.

Jimmy Bryant ate everybody's lunch with a Tele in the early 50s :)

[9lbShellhamer]

No difference in sound.

Great entry level A's are:

Eastman 305
Kentucky 160 or 150

Enjoy!

[fatt-dad]

yeah, as long as it's made from solid wood, arch-top, hand carved, spruce over maple, and a neck joint at the 15th fret - i.e., x-5, I'd agree no difference between the a- or f-model.

The oval hole Gibson A-models sound a whole lot different than the F5 Gibson's in the bluegrass scene!

f-d

[Glassweb]

Hans Brentrup once told me that, "F models have more authority."

i generally agree with Hans on that... well put.

[Bill McCall]

Learn to play the hell out of the instrument and it won't matter.what type of body it is. Carlo Aonzo can rip Rollin in my Sweet Baby's Arms on his bowl back. I can only dream.

[mtucker]

I'm in the camp that there is a slight difference in sound. A's seem a bit thinner to me in the lower register than F's which seem to have a more solid fundamental.

[grassrootphilosopher]

My Strad-O-Lin (f-hole [cross brace?]) A-model mandolin blows any F-model mandolin of the same value out of the water. Don´t even think of anything different. My Strad-O-Lin blows many higher dollar instruments out of the water as well. I fondly think of a jam session when a former IBMA official came all across the campground to find out what powerful F-style mandolin I was playing. I still remember the eyes he made when he saw me on my Strad.

On another note: Would you think the only Lloyd Loar A-5 has a "different" (especially less) sound than a Lloyd Loar F-5? ;)

I guess it depends much on the individual instrument and on the maker.

[T.D.Nydn]

Be advised that some bluegrass players you might be jamming with will believe you don't have the right instrument if you show up with an A style. Not your problem really. Kind of like playing jazz on a Tele. No good reason not to.

Mike Stern,,guitarist for Miles Davis(r.i.p.),,played a Tele,,it was given to him by Roy Bucanon..

[CES]

KM 500/505 often pop up around 500 as well. New they're a bit more now, but used within budget. Note that the classifieds allow for you to place want ads as well.

If you're primarily interested in BG stick with an arched top f hole model. If not, flattops like Flatiron 1N, Big Muddy/mid Mo often even more bang for your buck...

[JeffD]

yeah, as long as it's made from solid wood, arch-top, hand carved, spruce over maple, and a neck joint at the 15th fret - i.e., x-5, I'd agree no difference between the a- or f-model.

The oval hole Gibson A-models sound a whole lot different than the F5 Gibson's in the bluegrass scene!

f-d

And, most importantly, has the same kind of holes, i.e. one of them is not an oval hole while the other has ff holes.

Any difference between the sound of an f body and an a body is attributable to so many other things, as f-d describes. In otherwise identical construction, the difference is about the same magnitude as the difference between any two identically made mandolins, which, if any is slight. (And due to individual aspects of the wood and what the luthier did to accommodate them.)

[allenhopkins]

Differences among individual mandolins, especially from different makers, are so distinct, that they overwhelmingly outweigh any generic differences between A-model and F-model mandolins.

The major acoustic difference, if you're talking about solid wood mandolins with a hand-carved spruce top, is between f-hole and oval-hole instruments. That is where you can generally hear an across-the-board systematic variation in sound.

I would challenge anyone to listen blindfolded to a dozen mandolins and accurately identify, by sound alone, which were f-hole F-models, and which were f-hole A-models. I may be wrong here, but I second JeffD's post above, that it's f-hole vs. oval-hole, not presence or absence of the scroll and body points.

[pops1]

To add to what Allen said I doubt you could listen to an F model oval and an A model oval and tell the difference blindfolded either.

[Spruce]

I'm in the camp that there is a slight difference in sound. A's seem a bit thinner to me in the lower register than F's which seem to have a more solid fundamental.

There is no way that anyone could pick out #74003 in a blind listening test with a dozen other Loars...
There is no way that anyone could pick out Tim O'Brian's Nugget in a blind listening test with a dozen other Nugget F5s....
There is no way that anyone could pick out a good A5L in a blind listening test with a dozen other Gibson F5s...
There is no way that anyone could pick out "Ella" (a fine-sounding A model) in a blind listening test with a dozen other John Sullivan F5s...

We oughta just do this sometime, and put this thing to rest...
Wintergrass maybe?

[Dale Ludewig]

I agree completely with Spruce, Allen, etc. No difference between F and A, if constructed the same, at least no more than between two different A's if constructed the same, nor the same for F's. A small sample, but I've blind tested my own built mandolins (played by someone else), and I can't hear the difference myself.

[mandroid]

Yup, Has All the same Notes, on the fingerboard.

[Tom Sanderson]

There is no way that anyone could pick out Tim O'Brian's Nugget in a blind listening test with a dozen other Nugget F5s....


I have owned several Nuggets (two F5, three A, one 2 point, & two Collings/Nugget TOB) plus many other brands (around 30). I have played on many for long enough to get a good feel for the instrument. (probably more than 50 Nuggets, plus many others including several Gibson Loar signed F5s) . I can hear and feel a difference between an F5 and an A5. It is very subtle and I doubt if I could hear a difference in a blind listening test. It's a responsiveness and sound that I can feel and hear while playing them. Every time this subject comes up, I wonder how many of those who say there is no difference between them have really played enough of each to know for sure. I'm not saying that I know more than others on this fourm, but I know what I have personally experienced. I have been playing mandolin for over 40 years.

[JeffD]

Every time this subject comes up, I wonder how many of those who say there is no difference between them have really played enough of each to know for sure. .

I don't think there is a "for sure" that everyone will agree on. :)

My experience, and I have played a fair number of f and a models, is that no two mandolins are the same or play the same, but I have yet to be able to attribute differences to the shape of the body. The few times I did, I soon found or was shown an example that contradicted my conclusions.

Not so with the difference between f holes and oval holes, where over and over again certain characteristics of the sound were shared with the f holes I have played and other characteristics with the oval holes, with very few exceptions.

[dwc]

...

Every time this subject comes up, I wonder how many of those who say there is no difference between them have really played enough of each to know for sure. I'm not saying that I know more than others on this fourm, but I know what I have personally experienced. I have been playing mandolin for over 40 years.

I have been thinking about the question of A5 vs F5 quite a bit because I genuinely prefer the A5 shape and aesthetic, but I wonder what, if anything, I am losing (or gaining in tone). I haven't played nearly enough mandolins to say conclusively that an A5 built by X will sound nearly identical (within normal instrument variation) to an F5.

The problem is the test. A fair (but certainly not perfect) test would look something like this:
1) A panel of 35 who will listen to a single mandolinst play the same tune on a variety of mandolins and try to determine without visual reference which are A5 and which are F5.
2) A collection of mandolins from a a variety of builders, say 5 Kentucky KM 900s, 5 Kentucky KM 1500s, 5 Flatiron A5s, 5 Flatiron F5s, 5 Gibson A5Ls, 5 Gibson F5Ls, 5 Collings Mts, 5 Collings MFs, 5 Ellis A5s, and 5 Ellis F5s.

The problem is getting 35 test subjects and 50 mandolins in one place, but it would be a tremendous help to have solid data on whether over 25 A5s and 25 F5s, some people could tell the difference most of the time.

I would be happy to loan my Ellis A5 to the cause.

[DataNick]

There is no way that anyone could pick out #74003 in a blind listening test with a dozen other Loars...
There is no way that anyone could pick out Tim O'Brian's Nugget in a blind listening test with a dozen other Nugget F5s....
There is no way that anyone could pick out a good A5L in a blind listening test with a dozen other Gibson F5s...
There is no way that anyone could pick out "Ella" (a fine-sounding A model) in a blind listening test with a dozen other John Sullivan F5s...

We oughta just do this sometime, and put this thing to rest...
Wintergrass maybe?

You schedule it Spruce and I'll be there, at the very least to be a fly on the wall...but would be happy to see if anybody could tell the difference in my hacking on any batch of mandos...LOL!

[JeffD]

Be advised that some bluegrass players you might be jamming with will believe you don't have the right instrument if you show up with an A style.

It does happen now and again. Sheeesh, its not like you showed up with an accordion, like Bill Monroe's girlfriend.

My fantasy, and I would love to see one of the ace bluegrassers around here do this, is to show up to a jam with a flat back, like a Big Muddy or something, or a bowl back, and get the "hairy eye" from the other players. Then when you get to your break, just tear up the pea patch in a way so authoritative that nobody can argue with you meaningfully. Then when someone says something between songs, casually mention, with a big grin, something like this mandolin really sings out "dudnnit?"

[yankees1]

F more sexier , it will attract more women !

[Mandoplumb]

I have owned several Nuggets (two F5, three A, one 2 point, & two Collings/Nugget TOB) plus many other brands (around 30). I have played on many for long enough to get a good feel for the instrument. (probably more than 50 Nuggets, plus many others including several Gibson Loar signed F5s) . I can hear and feel a difference between an F5 and an A5. It is very subtle and I doubt if I could hear a difference in a blind listening test. It's a responsiveness and sound that I can feel and hear while playing them. Every time this subject comes up, I wonder how many of those who say there is no difference between them have really played enough of each to know for sure. I'm not saying that I know more than others on this fourm, but
I know what I have personally experienced. I have been playing mandolin for over 40 years.

If you can't hear the difference in a blind test, you aren't " hearing" the difference playing. You are being led astray by your preconceived bias. That's why there are double blind studies, to weed out the biases.

[sblock]

If you can't hear the difference in a blind test, you aren't " hearing" the difference playing. You are being led astray by your preconceived bias. That's why there are double blind studies, to weed out the biases.

+1 on that. If you can't hear it in a blind test, then you can't HEAR it. You are being influenced by other factors than sound!

[Spruce]

Every time this subject comes up, I wonder how many of those who say there is no difference between them have really played enough of each to know for sure.

Not me, I guess... ;)

[UsuallyPickin]

Well .... I am of the opinion the an A model and an F model do have a slightly different tone. But then any two instruments aren't likely to sound exactly alike anyway. I have an A and an F model from the same builder in the same period of time so the luthiers were likely the same and they were signed by the same factory foreman. They do sound somewhat different. Not a great deal but some. R/

[Bill McCall]

Interesting test idea, but quite hard to get very similar pairs of instruments, given the effects of different strings, picks, age and the differential rates of opening up of A's and F's, due to the slight stressing of the plates on F's on the scroll. Not to mention the uncontrolled ears of the listeners and the sound reflection necessary in the blind test.:whistling:

[sblock]

Well .... I am of the opinion the an A model and an F model do have a slightly different tone. But then any two instruments aren't likely to sound exactly alike anyway. I have an A and an F model from the same builder in the same period of time so the luthiers were likely the same and they were signed by the same factory foreman. They do sound somewhat different. Not a great deal but some. R/

Yes, but of course, your experience shows that any two mandolins sound a little different from one to the next, and NOT that there are any systematic, discernible differences between A5 and F5-models! Even two mandolins of the same model type from the same builder will tend to sound a little different! That's the nature of the beast.

The two points and scroll of an F5 have solid wood blocks inside them. The air cavity in an A5 is the same size and shape as the air cavity in an F5. The graduations of the parts of the top and back that actually vibrate the most, and the shape of the recurve, are very nearly identical. So there is very little reason, in principle, why an A5 and F5 should not sound just about the same. Yes, there is a small difference in the mass due to the extra weight of the points and scroll and headstock, but that mass is not closely associated with the parts that actually vibrate and produce sound (top, back, and air cavity), so its effect is negligible. Far more important are the mechanical characteristics of the moving parts of the top, back, and sides, and the size and shape of the air cavity. These depend on the tonewood properties and the thickness graduations. They do not depend on it being an A5 or F5 model.

Folks who claim to hear a systematic difference have not been challenged by blind tests, I'd wager. They'd have lost the bet, bigtime!

If Joe Walsh or Tim O'Brien showed up at a bluegrass jam with their A5 models, I very much doubt that the bluegrass police would have the nerve to shoo them away. (In an earlier era, it could have been Tut Taylor with his Griffith Loar A5, or Andy Statman with an A2Z snakehead). We give the bluegrass police too much power, anyway. Mandolin lives matter!! :mandosmiley:

[FLATROCK HILL]

The air cavity in an A5 is the same size and shape as the air cavity in an F5.

sblock, We (you) can argue about the subjective stuff all night long...whether or not an A5 sound is distinguishable from an F5 sound, but the blanket statement above is not true.

[sblock]

sblock, We (you) can argue about the subjective stuff all night long...whether or not an A5 sound is distinguishable from an F5 sound, but the blanket statement above [about the air cavity being the same] is not true.

Huh?! But on what basis do you claim it is untrue? What is your evidence for this? The two points and scroll of an F5 have wood blocks inside them, and therefore do not enlarge the air cavity (except for perhaps a very small amount). The rest of the body dimensions are exactly the same, if the A5 model correctly follows the design of the one-and-only prototype, namely, the famous Ms. Griffith Loar A5.

I agree with you that we may differ about subjective stuff, but this is -- as you correctly point out -- a factual matter. So what are your facts, I wonder, and how is it that they differ from mine?

[mandobassman]

Huh?! On what basis do you claim it is untrue? What is your evidence? The two points and scroll of an F5 have wood blocks inside them, and therefore do not enlarge the air cavity. The rest of the body dimensions are exactly the same, if the A5 model correctly follows the design of the one-and-only prototype, namely, the famous Ms. Griffith Loar A5.

I agree with you that we may differ about subjective stuff, but this is -- as you correctly point out -- a factual matter. So what are your facts, I wonder, and how is it that they differ from mine?

I would agree with Flatrock. Not all F5's have a solid scroll. I have seen several photos of mandolins with the backs removed for repairs and also photos of builds in progress and there are many that have open scrolls. I don't know how much difference the extra internal volume makes in tone, my guess is not much, but there are some where the scroll is not solid.

[sblock]

I would agree with Flatrock. Not all F5's have a solid scroll. I have seen several photos of mandolins with the backs removed for repairs and also photos of builds in progress and there are many that have open scrolls. I don't know how much difference the extra internal volume makes in tone, my guess is not much, but there are some where the scroll is not solid.

It is indeed true that not all F5's have a solid scroll. And beyond that, there is sometimes a narrow extension of the air chamber into an area under the scroll and distal from the neck joint, beyond the end of the scroll block. This is, however, a negligible change. I agree with your guess that this makes no significant difference in tone.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Huh?! But on what basis do you claim it is untrue? What is your evidence for this?

Several (too many according to my wife) F5 mandolins, a dental mirror and a flashlight.


So what are your facts, I wonder, and how is it that they differ from mine?

The F5s you have examined may very well have solid scrolls; mine do not. I do not claim that the scrolls on mine are completely hollow, only that the air cavities are not the "same size and shape" as an A5.

[tiltman]

But what about the "Gumby" A-5? The one with the "lump" scroll...
Can you hear a difference there?!?
:grin:
Kirk

[barney 59]

sblock, We (you) can argue about the subjective stuff all night long...whether or not an A5 sound is distinguishable from an F5 sound, but the blanket statement above is not true.

It most certainly can if the builder makes sure that it does. That isn't to say that across the board that that is true for all makers or all models but correct me if I'm wrong but I believe I read somewhere that that is an attribute of Red Diamonds for the air cavity of an A model to be equal to an F.

[sblock]

It's certainly true that not all F5's are identical internally, and that some (but not all) do have small "additional air pockets" located inside the scroll, in the area just beyond the scroll block. In some cases, the volume of this additional air pocket is, in fact, zero (i.e., the block occludes the entire space). In other cases, the extra volume may increase the size of the total air cavity by several percent (the block is narrower). So the air cavity of an F5 may, or may not, be identical to an A5. But when it differs, it only differs by a tiny amount. Is that enough to change the intrinsic tone of the instrument? And is this why you think F5's sound "different," despite what most luthiers tell us?

I'd love a chance to put those folks who claim to hear a tonal difference to the test, by playing them studio recordings of great mandolin players, and then asking them if the recording was made on an A5 or F5 model. The differences between individual playing styles, individual mandolins (regardless of the model), player string preferences, and so on, are so large compared to any possible small differences between an A5 and F5 that I seriously doubt that anyone -- however expert and however many years they've been playing! -- could score well on such a test.

[Ivan Kelsall]

IMHO - Either,or !. I wouldn't hesitate to use my Ellis "A" style in any context. In fact,this last weekend,if the weather over here hadn't been so bad,i was hoping to travel up to Lancaster UK to meet up with Jordan Ramsey & his band who were playing there. My Ellis "A" 'was ready to go' !. That one will hold it's own with any group of instruments used in Bluegrass music.

As has been mentioned,2 very well known Bluegrass mandolin players,Tim o'Brien & Joe Walsh use "A" styles on a regular basis.
IMHO (again), it's maybe only the fact that Bill Monroe used an "F" style, that makes so many Bluegrass players gravitate towards that style - they have the right ''look'' for the job. I know what i personally look for in the tone of a Bluegrass mandolin, & my Ellis has it in spades. One other great Bluegrass mandolin player isn't averse to using an "A" style when it suits him - Adam Steffey,
Ivan

https://youtu.be/NmIDP1B_rpc

[pheffernan]

The rest of the body dimensions are exactly the same, if the A5 model correctly follows the design of the one-and-only prototype, namely, the famous Ms. Griffith Loar A5.

I was informed by someone who would know that the Griffith Loar A5, built on the bones of a Gibson A-style, actually has a bigger sound chamber than an F5.

[FLATROCK HILL]

It's certainly true that not all F5's are identical internally, and that some (but not all) do have small "additional air pockets" located inside the scroll, in the area just beyond the scroll block. In some cases, the volume of this additional air pocket is, in fact, zero (i.e., the block occludes the entire space). In other cases, the extra volume may increase the size of the total air cavity by several percent (the block is narrower). So the air cavity of an F5 may, or may not, be identical to an A5. But when it differs, it only differs by a tiny amount. Is that enough to change the intrinsic tone of the instrument? And is this why you think F5's sound "different," despite what most luthiers tell us?

sblock: Were you directly responding to my post or with all of those with whom you differ? The bulk of that paragraph seems to be a logical continuation of our conversation. The last sentence however, questions a position that I haven't taken.

[dhergert]

This is a very interesting discussion...

I haven't weighed in on this mostly because I don't have enough experience with F and A style mandolins to really say. The longest period of in-hand experience that I've had with mandolins was with an inexpensive taterbug Suzuki from the 70s to about 2012 when I got my first F style (the F9).

What I can say after checking it out with mirror and flashlight is that both my moderately pricey 2002 F9 and my extremely inexpensive new MKLFSTB mandolins -- which both have solid maple back/sides, solid maple necks and solid spruce carved tops -- do have at least some hollow space in the scroll. How much I can't tell, but it is a big enough open space to at least add some resonance to the scroll structures themselves as upposed to having solid scrolls. Whether that contributes to a general tone or volume difference with A style mandolins, I really cannot say.

-- Don

[stevedenver]

oP
If your head isnt befuddled w all this A v F kerfluffle

1 you will get more mando per dollar spent with an A.
2imho, having both styles in high end makes, there is no difference in upper fret accesibility
3 mando is an acquired sensitivty compared to guitar, imho. Respectfully, it may be a year before you hear some mando tone subtleties.
4 with As, imho, the biggest thing to notice is that some have the neck meeting the body at the tenth fret, others at the 12th fret. I think the difference is important, not unlike a classical vs 14th fret guitar body.
5 if i had your budget, id be most aware of set up, playability and proper intonation.
6 search the forum for rob meldrums ebook on mando set up to become better informed on some mando quirks and details.
7 mandos of quality are a shock price wise compared to guitars. Really!
8 as predicted earlier, and about twice+ your budgeted amount, i love my rigel a. Easy to play, decent sound, stable and easy to keep in tune. It differs from the gibson as i have owned in sound, feel, and ease of play. Gibsons, have a certain lovely old funk. If not set up well, mandos can be finicky, uncomfortable, frustratingly unsweet sounding and at least out of tune. When operating well, they are sweet and full. They may be a shock to your fingers too.

The eastmans i have played seem to be superb value. Havent seen an eastman a though.

Good hunting

[sblock]

sblock: Were you directly responding to my post or with all of those with whom you differ? The bulk of that paragraph seems to be a logical continuation of our conversation. The last sentence however, questions a position that I haven't taken.

Sorry for any confusion, Flatrock -- I was responding to our conversation, and also to the greater conversation in the thread. No misattribution was intended!

[Spruce]

I was informed by someone who would know that the Griffith Loar A5, built on the bones of a Gibson A-style, actually has a bigger sound chamber than an F5.

:popcorn:

[Tom Sanderson]

I'd love a chance to put those folks who claim to hear a tonal difference to the test, by playing them studio recordings of great mandolin players, and then asking them if the recording was made on an A5 or F5 model. The differences between individual playing styles, individual mandolins (regardless of the model), player string preferences, and so on, are so large compared to any possible small differences between an A5 and F5 that I seriously doubt that anyone -- however expert and however many years they've been playing! -- could score well on such a test.

My point was that not so much a difference in tone.it's the response "I" can feel when playing the instrument, not from a listeners perspective. That's my observation.

[fscotte]

Despite the small chamber of air leading into the scroll of an F5, some mandos will undoubtably have variances in the neck and tailblocks, thus leading to different air chamber sizes even among A models.

For such a tiny instrument as the mando, any slight changes will have some kind of influence on the sound. Measuring those differences would be another matter. You can make small changes to the size of your fholes using tape. Even small deductions in the size creates a tonal change.

[allenhopkins]

Geez, how many other variables differentiate mandolins, besides presence or absence of scroll and points? And I'm only considering hand-carved, f-hole, raised-neck instruments, with spruce tops, maple sides and back:

1. Age
2. Playing history
3. Tone woods
4. Finish
5. Bracing configuration
6. Type of strings
6a. Age of strings
7. Type of bridge
8. Set-up
9. Type of pick used
10. Player attack and technique

Show me some way to make all these variables equal, between several A-models and several F-models, then schedule your blindfold test. I'll abide by the results without qualification, thus differentiating myself from at least one national candidate I could mention...

[JeffD]

My point was that not so much a difference in tone.it's the response "I" can feel when playing the instrument, not from a listeners perspective. That's my observation.

And that is a good point. It would make sense on the face of it that a different shape would feel different. Just taking one aspect: the way one puts the strap on an F scroll, versus however they chose to connect the strap on an A, is bound to affect the balance point and change how it feels.

And I could see this difference in feeling translate into a preference when shopping.

As you mention, this difference is not going to be noticeable to a listener.

[JeffD]

Lets try this from another angle (too much coffee this morning).

Any difference attributable to the size of the air space or anything else, Allen's list above, and length of neck, and neck joint glue, and whatever - could be incorporated into the build of the other style body. In other words I believe if you can discern an A body sound or an F body sound I am certain that a competent luthier could make an F body that sounds like an A to you and an A body that sounds like and F to you, because the difference has nothing to do with scroll and points.

[Spruce]

Show me some way to make all these variables equal, between several A-models and several F-models, then schedule your blindfold test.

Well, it's only one A5, but the general consensus is that it hangs right in there with it's scrolled brethren... ;)

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5717/30386191001_251c4e6a8d_z.jpg

[FLATROCK HILL]

Geez, how many other variables differentiate mandolins, besides presence or absence of scroll and points? And I'm only considering hand-carved, f-hole, raised-neck instruments, with spruce tops, maple sides and back:

1. Age
2. Playing history
3. Tone woods
4. Finish
5. Bracing configuration
6. Type of strings
6a. Age of strings
7. Type of bridge
8. Set-up
9. Type of pick used
10. Player attack and technique


Let us not forget:

11. Opened-up or closed
12. Awake or slumbering peacefully

[sblock]

Let us not forget:

11. Opened-up or closed
12. Awake or slumbering peacefully

Agent provocateur! Not going there... :disbelief:

[Spencer]

Geez, how many other variables differentiate mandolins, besides presence or absence of scroll and points? And I'm only considering hand-carved, f-hole, raised-neck instruments, with spruce tops, maple sides and back:

1. Age
2. Playing history
3. Tone woods
4. Finish
5. Bracing configuration
6. Type of strings
6a. Age of strings
7. Type of bridge
8. Set-up
9. Type of pick used
10. Player attack and technique

Show me some way to make all these variables equal, between several A-models and several F-models, then schedule your blindfold test. I'll abide by the results without qualification, thus differentiating myself from at least one national candidate I could mention...

I actually came pretty close to this when I got my last mandolin. There were 4 recently built mandolins in the shop, two A style two F style, the latter with the simple type of scroll, hollow, with the arch on the scroll extending into the body, same maker, shop, finish strings etc. etc. The builder and I both of us did a blind test/s and though it was a few years ago, I remember we could usually pick the F models from the A, though differences were pretty small, and as I recall in the lower tones/chop. We always picked the mandolin that I now own as the best (F-version), though I would have been happy with any of them. I have an A and an F of the same make, like them both, and they both work very nicely for bluegrass, but sound quite a bit different than other makes, in agreement with several posts above. Wasn't it Jethro that once said something like this to a student who kept asking about all the details, string, pick etc.? - "Well son, sometimes you just have to play the d----- thing."

Spencer

[Michael Donnel]

After spending a day in Louisville testing out mando I came away empty handed. Played a lot of mando and just could not find the right one. So I started the search on eBay and using the advice from the cafe here I set my sights on the Km-150 or KM-160. I found both on eBay and the 150 got away from me, but the KM-160 did not. So for $175 I picked up a used KM-160 as my first mando.

[Br1ck]

Now get the free e book from Rob Meldrum about setting your mandolin up. Even if you don't have any intention of doing it yourself, you will understand the process, and there is no reason you can't do it yourself.