What's a Jazz mandolin?

[DHopkins]

I've been around mandolins for a few years now but something puzzles me: What constitutes a jazz mandolin. I notice that they're usually 2 point construction. Is that it?

Are you forced to wear a banjo around your neck for the rest of your life if you play bluegrass with a jazz mandolin?

People sell jazz mandolins but they never talk about sustain, tone or anything like that. It's just a jazz mandolin. :confused:

[Oliver A.]

http://i.imgur.com/pGqjKbx.jpg

[Martin Ohrt]

Well, of course I can speak for no one but me... so here are my two cents:

For me, a jazz mandolin has a sonorous, rich tone with lots of sustain. No aggressiveness, but a very full, warm and even tone all across the fretboard.
Listen to Don Stiernberg's Nugget, and you'll know what I mean.
Incidentally, this is also a two point... And I have to admit that I dream of a two point jazz mando, too - so you might be right, a "true" jazz mandolin has two points! ;)
OTOH, my Furch A5 has a very "jazzy" tone as described above - although I use bronze strings instead of flatwounds....

(Do you know Jesper Rübner-Petersen? He is a fine jazz mandolinist, and he plays a F5 which absolutely does not fulfill any of the "requirements" I stated above - but of course, it's a jazz mando, as he plays jazz on it! :D)

[DHopkins]

http://i.imgur.com/pGqjKbx.jpg

So, is that a jazz mandolin or a guitar with 8 strings. It looks like a guitar to me.

[John Soper]

Actually a "Jazz Mandolin" is anything you are playing when you play jazz!

[DavidKOS]

I've been around mandolins for a few years now but something puzzles me: What constitutes a jazz mandolin. I notice that they're usually 2 point construction. Is that it?
:

None of the usual mandolin buzzwords count when referring to ANY jazz instrument.

What constitutes a "jazz mandolin"?

Having a jazz musician play it. Bowl back, flat back, A, F, whatever....it about the feel of the player. If the player can play jazz, the instrument matters not.

[Jim Garber]

I agree with John and DavidKOS. There is really no such thing as a "jazz mandolin". In fact there is no such thing as a "classical mandolin" and the only reason that an F-5 is considered to be a bluegrass mandolin is that it is so closely associated with Mr. Monroe. Would that mean that if a bluegrass player played an oval A mandolin either that would make it a bluegrass mandolin or that that person would not be playing bluegrass music.

OTOH Don Stiernberg's Nugget is a jazz mandolin because he plays that kind of music. When I met him a couple of years ago he was part of a group for folks paying with the Chicago Symphony and that same Nugget became a classical mandolin.

I do understand the leaning of players toward a certain voicing that might appeal players of jazz. I would think the makers of such instruments would talk about sustain etc. as the OP did above.


People sell jazz mandolins but they never talk about sustain, tone or anything like that. It's just a jazz mandolin. :)

OTOH Ted E does a nice job exactly talking about what makes a mandolin good for playong jazz. Take a read at this article (http://jazzmando.com/paul_lestock.shtml) on the Paul Lestock's Jazzbo.

I do see some tongue-in-cheek comments in the OP.

[Marty Jacobson]

When I say "jazz mandolin", I mean a mandolin which has some of the characteristics of an archtop jazz box played clean through an amp. That means a combination of high articulation and note separation while also having a mellow and extremely balanced tone.
A bowlback might work for dixieland jazz, and while that is certainly jazz, I think most folks refer to a smaller subset when they say "jazz mandolin".

I built a nice mandolin for a player who wanted it for gypsy jazz, but I don't consider that instrument a "jazz mandolin". It's more like an old Gibson A with more acoustic power.

Also, a "jazz mandolin", as I use the term, may not be the loudest mandolin you've heard, and may not cut through the mix like a "banjo killer" or "cannon". It's intended to be used properly balanced with the ensemble by the recording or sound engineer (or by the other members of the ensemble balancing their dynamics appropriately), and the voicing biases sonority over sheer volume and cutting power.

I don't think there's any right or wrong here... I think we just need to explain ourselves when we use a term like this.

[Mandoplumb]

Are there jazz police watching like the Bluegrass police?

[dwc]

Are there jazz police watching like the Bluegrass police?

You have no idea.

[DavidKOS]

When I say "jazz mandolin", I mean a mandolin which has some of the characteristics of an archtop jazz box played clean through an amp. That means a combination of high articulation and note separation while also having a mellow and extremely balanced tone.
A bowlback might work for dixieland jazz, and while that is certainly jazz, I think most folks refer to a smaller subset when they say "jazz mandolin".

I built a nice mandolin for a player who wanted it for gypsy jazz, but I don't consider that instrument a "jazz mandolin". It's more like an old Gibson A with more acoustic power.

Also, a "jazz mandolin", as I use the term, may not be the loudest mandolin you've heard, and may not cut through the mix like a "banjo killer" or "cannon". It's intended to be used properly balanced with the ensemble by the recording or sound engineer (or by the other members of the ensemble balancing their dynamics appropriately), and the voicing biases sonority over sheer volume and cutting power.

I don't think there's any right or wrong here... I think we just need to explain ourselves when we use a term like this.

OK, I think you defined what you are looking for in a jazz mandolin.

But it is a very specific and for my taste way too narrow a definition of "jazz mandolin"...and there is no right or wrong....and I like the sound of what you describe, although I do not have any instruments that sound like that!

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Are there jazz police watching like the Bluegrass police?

Any and every genre has the ethnic police.

Ignore them and play.

[Ron McMillan]

Isaac Eicher is living proof that it's the player that makes a jazz mandolin. He makes his Ellis sweeter and jazzier than a jazzy thing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFaLjw7EMDE

[Magnus Geijer]

This is all very subjective, of course, but the number one property that makes me think jazz when I pick up a mandolin is single courses. If out-louding banjos isn't a requirement, I think the ability to do bends is worth the switch all on its own.

150369

[GuyIncognito]

Compared to my Kentucky KM-950, my Breedlove KO mandolin is perfect for jazz. It's an oval hole with an extended fingerboard so it's got wonderful sustain and sounds great for chords/comping, lots of warmth. The fingerboard is wider than most mandolins which makes it great for chord melody, plus big frets and a radius makes it very comfortable for playing high up or odd jazz chords.

[T.D.Nydn]

This is all very subjective, of course, but the number one property that makes me think jazz when I pick up a mandolin is single courses. If out-louding banjos isn't a requirement, I think the ability to do bends is worth the switch all on its own.

150369
This is a really interesting mandolin,,,I've never played a single course instrument,and I would actually like to...

[DavidKOS]

The fingerboard is wider than most mandolins which makes it great for chord melody, plus big frets and a radius makes it very comfortable for playing high up or odd jazz chords.

A wide neck can be a real plus for chord work.

[Pittsburgh Bill]

Phoenix Mandolins provides a good definition on their web site as to what they attempt to achieve in tone between their classic, jazz, and and bluegrass mandolins.

[JeffD]

When I think of a mandolin whose looks inspire jazz, I think of those Paris Swing mandolins emulating Selmer guitars.

But I think in general, any mandolin upon which jazz is played is a jazz mandolin. And the better the jazz being played on it, regardless of the type of mandolin, the less arguments you will get. :)

[allenhopkins]

One thing I'd suggest, is that it's more likely that a "jazz mandolin" -- basically, just an instrument that works well in a context where there are likely more wind and brass instruments, and drums, involved than in bluegrass, old-time, Celtic or folk -- will be a carved-top, f-hole instrument, rather than a flat-or-canted-top, oval-hole mandolin.

Also some likelihood that it will be amplified. You need a mandolin with a distinct voice that can blend with a jazz combo, rather than a bluegrass or old-time band, or an Irish session. Volume is a consideration, as is the percussive sound of the carved-top f-hole mandolin.

[Ivan Kelsall]

You can play Jazz on any mandolin = obvious. But - maybe mandolins designed more specifically to be used to pay Jazz,could have attributes peculiar to them,such as a more 'open, Guitar-like' sound with maybe more sustain & be more responsive to 'string bending'.
This recent addition to the Weber family is what i think of as being a very Jazz orientated mandolin design. For me,it has 'the look' & i'd bet it would sound superb in a Jazz context,
Ivan;)
150380 Photo courtesy of TAMCO UK

[DavidKOS]

Tell these early New Orleans jazz players that they have the "wrong" mandolin for jazz:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=132240&d=1427412577

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_AxS85U89X1w/Sn_6ahjFJWI/AAAAAAAABNo/meRrYhVtMCc/s1600/The+Invicibles+(2).jpg

[fatt-dad]

just take a regular mandolin, change the strings to flatwounds and get a pointed pick.

f-d

p.s., and something about technique.

[Martin Ohrt]

Tell these early New Orleans jazz players that they have the "wrong" mandolin for jazz:


Not only that - you also cannot use an open-back Banjo for jazz :))

David, I think we all agree that you can play anything on any mando (I used to believe that you couldn't play a bowl back standing up, until Carlo Aonzo proved me wrong ;) ). But the OP asked what is meant when sellers talk about "jazz mandolin", and I'm quite sure, that they normally do not mean vintage bowl-backs. :grin:

However, these are nice photos! I wonder if the guitar playing Roller Tichenor is somehow related to "our" Scott?

[farmerjones]

Y'know, I'm stumped!?!?! :confused:

I can't see how one can hang onto anything with *Jazz Hands*

:cool:

[DavidKOS]

But the OP asked what is meant when sellers talk about "jazz mandolin", and I'm quite sure, that they normally do not mean vintage bowl-backs. :grin:
?

I think you are right about the OP's question.

So I guess a jazz mandolin is any mandolin marketed as such?

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just take a regular mandolin, change the strings to flatwounds and get a pointed pick.

f-d

p.s., and something about technique.

I'll skip the flatwounds, but am with you on the pointed pick!

[mandroid]

Yea there is the Look... my David Hodson D'jangolin, Definitely does not have a Bluegrass look..

[Ted Eschliman]

I am of the same frame of mind that most any mandolin can be a jazz mandolin in the hands of the right player. It's not the instrument as much as the appropriate sound it creates for the context of the music, and this brings up a little music theory.

In folk/bluegrass, you have the purity of simple triadic harmonies. 3rds, 5ths, occasional 7ths, but rarely anything extended beyond that harmonically. You lean toward bright, piercing qualities for melodic brilliance and "chop" for percussiveness.

In jazz, you have #11, b13, m7b5 and a whole mess more of complex overtones in the harmony itself, so my aural goal in an instrument is to project the lower fundamentals of the string, warmth, so as not to add to or distract the inherent complexity in that "extended" harmonic vocabulary. This could be accomplished in a number of different ways, flatwound strings, round beveled picks, and above all, an instrument that yields less in presence or harsh harmonics. Because there are so many ways to accomplish this, I have a hard time pigeon-holing an instrument dedicated to this result. Even the way players fingers squeeze with their left or angle the pick with the right can achieve this.

Gypsy Jazzers have argued with me about this. They are in highly dynamic acoustic ensembles (like bluegrass), so they often power through with more piercing instruments than my ear likes. To each his own.

[DavidKOS]

.. This could be accomplished in a number of different ways, flatwound strings, round beveled picks, and above all, an instrument that yields less in presence or harsh harmonics. Because there are so many ways to accomplish this, I have a hard time pigeon-holing an instrument dedicated to this result........

Gypsy Jazzers have argued with me about this. They are in highly dynamic acoustic ensembles (like bluegrass), so they often power through with more piercing instruments than my ear likes. To each his own.

I seem to be on the other side, along with the Gypsy jazzers (which I play on guitar more than mandolin) - I prefer a colorful, bright, ringing mandolin tone in every musical style I play. But I like players to have unique personal tone colors so we don't all sound alike.

So for me, no flatwounds, rounded picks, etc. - each player can have their own tone, from smooth fat and warm to rich and bright, and even use a variety of tones by playing closer to the bridge or the neck as needed.

I need to sit down and record more mandolin jazz. I gig on jazz guitar so often I forget to use the mandolin for jazz playing.

[DavidKOS]

Yea there is the Look... my David Hodson D'jangolin, Definitely does not have a Bluegrass look..

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?120270-Macafferri-shaped-mandolins

Like these mandolins?

I find this very amusing! The whole concept of the Maccaferri/Selmer guitars borrowed from Italian mandolin design, so to re-borrow from the Selmer guitar to make a "Django" mandolin cracks me up!

But they are nice instruments.

http://www.lutherie.net/discussion2.html

"PH: There was a bend in the Selmer tops, similar to the fold, or "crank," across the top and behind the bridge, in the style of Neapolitan mandolins. Plus the lateral arch from the braces. The engineering of Selmers was close to Neapolitan mandolins, "

http://www.guitaraficionado.com/brand-of-gypsies-django-reinhardts-lifelong-affair-with-selmer-guitars.html

"The guitar used the steel strings of a mandolin, which were louder, brighter, and clearer sounding than gut strings. And like a mandolin, Maccaferri’s design featured a soundboard arched at the bridge and glued to the sides under pressure."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selmer_guitar

"The strings pass over a moveable bridge and are gathered at the tail, as on a mandolin. "

[Marty Jacobson]

[url]I find this very amusing! The whole concept of the Maccaferri/Selmer guitars borrowed from Italian mandolin design, so to re-borrow from the Selmer guitar to make a "Django" mandolin cracks me up!

This is pretty typical of how musical instruments are developed over time and across cultures.

[Timbofood]

I think it's really more "How you do it" as opposed as to what the instrument is then.
Which makes sense to me, face it, the F-5 was NOT designed for bluegrass music, it has simply become the benchmark.
Two Point models are a tip of the hat to Jethro Burns use of the cherry red example from Gibson.
I really like the look of the "Jazzbo Jones" in your ad Oliver, it's just flat COOL! It makes me want a silk suit, a pack of clove cigarettes and, a snifter of brandy!

[GuyIncognito]

If you record more mandolin jazz, I'll listen

[Martin Ohrt]

If you record more mandolin jazz, I'll listen

Me too!

[DataNick]

http://i.imgur.com/pGqjKbx.jpg

I just gotta say Mr. Oliver that this is one of the coolest mandolins I've ever seen; at least the way it's positioned in this ad.

Gotta give props also to Steve S. whose has built an Octave along these lines as I recall...

[Oliver A.]

Here's another version.

http://i.imgur.com/uRxIHBF.jpg

[DavidKOS]

This whole thread could be used as evidence for my hypothesis that the F Gibson (particularly the LL models) is a little archtop guitar with mandolin stringing.

[Verne Andru]

If you define the question from a historical point of view, Tiny Moore's Bigsby 5-string is probably one of the better known jazz mandolin sounds.

The now defunct Paris Swing had a series of acoustics modeled after the Selmer/Maccafari look:

150416

150417

150419

150418

The mando in my avatar is like the last one. I added the fingerrest and electronics so it works in most instances.

[Eric Foulke]

This whole thread could be used as evidence for my hypothesis that the F Gibson (particularly the LL models) is a little archtop guitar with mandolin stringing.

I think you might have that backwards, the original name of the company was the "Gibson Mandolin-Guitar Manufacturing Company"
The L-5 was a very large mandolin.

[Pete Martin]

There are so many "jazz" styles, that many mandolins would work. Use your ears and see if your sound compliments the ensemble. If it doesn't try a different mandolin.

[T.D.Nydn]

Weren't some of the Maccaferri guitars made out of plastic...

[DavidKOS]

Weren't some of the Maccaferri guitars made out of plastic...

Several models of Maccaferri guitars and ukuleles were made of plastic. They sound pretty good for plastic. I think the ukes were a much bigger seller than the guitars.

[Reid Morsi]

"Isaac Eicher is living proof that it's the player that makes a jazz mandolin. He makes his Ellis sweeter and jazzier than a jazzy thing."

Great video, I am not familiar with this guy but he can really play. Looks like he's picking a Heiden F-style to me. Which i'm sure is a great mandolin for any style/context of playing