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Karen Kay
May-26-2005, 8:48pm
I don't know anything about 1920's-30's Martin mandolins. #I know there have been threads on this subject before but I can't remember much of the details. #
How do they play & sound? How do they #compare to old Gibson A's? Any advice? (pro or con)#
Thanks,
KK

Eugene
May-26-2005, 9:28pm
Can I assume you're discussing the archtop series: styles 15, 2-15, 20, 2-20, and 2-30? #All were made with quality spruce and maple, often sportng very attractive figure, and all resulted from some of the best, most consistent craftsmanship to have originated in an American mass producer (Martin). #Personally, I don't think the f-holed models (those with the prefix 2) were very successful. #They seem too thin-toned for my taste and the top plate often seems to crack or collapse between bridge and tailpiece. #However, the oval-holed models (15, 20, and 30) were mighty tasty. #If they had appeared a few years earlier, I think they might have been very popular with the mandolin orchestra crowd. #I am very lucky in being friendly with the owner of one of only two Martin style 30 mandolins produced (I doubt the second survives; if you find it, please let me know in enough time to procure a loan). #The style 30 must be the most neatly crafted, aesthetic and graceful production mandolin I've ever seen (including anything I've seen of pre-depression Gibsons). #Mmmm...

Paul Hostetter
May-26-2005, 10:07pm
With a couple of exceptions, like this Style 2-30:

http://www.lutherie.net/martin.2-30.jpg

...Martin used the shorter 13" scale most associated with Neapolitan mandolins, which gives both the flat and arched mandolins a commonality. I have a few Martins, a style 15 which I love (it's carved, oval-hole maple and spruce), but it's no match for a Gibson in terms of volume. Very sweet.

Interestingly, the flatbacked Martins with the cranked tops like this A model:

http://www.lutherie.net/martin.a.mandolin.jpg

...really punch through. I find them in ensemble situations to be noticeably louder than any of the Gibsons. Not as complex a sound, but volume and penetration to spare. Still the 13" scale.

I also have a Martin Style D flatback, and its sound is really rather dainty. It's like the eggshell version of the beefier A above, even though it's made in the same molds. Maybe all the abalone fru-fru is killing the sound.

Bob A
May-26-2005, 11:09pm
Martin made bowlbacks as well, of course, but their heyday was pretty much over by the 20s-30s. Still, they are generally fine instruments and ridiculously underpriced for the quality of construction and sound.

keithd
May-26-2005, 11:54pm
I have a 1949 style 2-15. It's a lovely instrument, with a really nice neck profile too, and the fit and finish are flawless. But I'd have to agree with all the above comments about the tone; I've sadly had to put it aside for a teens Gibson A. I have seen a Martin style B played at Irish sessions that could be heard just fine though.

keithd
May-27-2005, 12:00am
My photo didn't load...let's try this again:

keithd
May-27-2005, 12:03am
Here's another that shows the interesting, violin-like bridge design on the
2-15 and 2-30 series Martins:

Eugene
May-27-2005, 7:25am
I also have a Martin Style D flatback, and its sound is really rather dainty. It's like the eggshell version of the beefier A above, even though it's made in the same molds. Maybe all the abalone fru-fru is killing the sound.
Are you sure it's a D? ...Do you know how rare they are? ...And wow! Martin logged only seven style D mandolins.

For all the consistency of Martin craftsmanship, their instruments were still made of wood which is an organic and inherently inconsistent raw material. Every once in a while, there will be a sonic clunker. I love Martin mandolins. My main mandolin is a one-of-a-kind 1908 bowlback with tone and volume that I find heavenly, but I once owned a 1915 style 2 that was simply too thin-voiced and trebly with no bass.

neal
May-27-2005, 9:20am
As we're on Martin, a few more questions...The koa they used- the earlier ones seem a bit flamier, anyone know why? I've heard it was because the koa trees used later were younger, I don't know about tree growth. Second, how would one describe the sound between a Martin AK (koa), a Martin B with Brazilian rosewood/spruce, and a Martin A with mahogany/spruce?

Third, are the 20-40's Martin A's built the same as a 70's? The woods are the same, they look the same. Are they pretty much the same?

Don't you just love a flamey koa? The later ones I've seen just look sorta like mahogany.

Paul Hostetter
May-27-2005, 11:42am
Neal - I think the Martin A's have barely changed at all over the years. I liked the gears and the cases on earlier ones better.

Eugene - it's a Style C, vintage 1919. Years ago (pre-Mike Longworth) Jon Lundberg had me convinced it was a style D because he said the D had abalone and the C had colored marquetry, which was the case later on. In my era of production however, the C still had abalone. That early bit of info remains in my head because I don’t think about it often. Here are some photos I just took of it this morning:

http://www.lutherie.net/martin.style.c.back.jpg

http://www.lutherie.net/martin.style.c.front.jpg

Paul Hostetter
May-27-2005, 11:44am
Here are some of my Style 15 from 1935:

http://www.lutherie.net/martin.style.15.front.jpg
http://www.lutherie.net/martin.style.15.back.jpg

I played for years with an Italian mandolinist named Riccardo Tunzi who had one the very first two Style 15s ever made. He bought it from Sherman and Clay in SF in 1929, new. It had an ebony pickguard and binding.

Paul Hostetter
May-27-2005, 11:46am
Here are the backs of the headstocks of the two. Same outline. Sure wish you could buy these gears today.

http://www.lutherie.net/martin.style.15.hdstck.back.jpg
http://www.lutherie.net/martin.style.c.hdstck.back.jpg

keithd
May-27-2005, 11:52am
Paul,

Thanks for the photos. You have a stunning collection. Any chance of a little show and tell at Lark Camp this summer?

Keith

Paul Hostetter
May-27-2005, 12:06pm
I have thought of bringing more than one mandolin to Lark, but we camp and only have a small station wagon with a roof rack. Robin's got two different santouris and her little accordion, and all I've been able to bring is a guitar, the laouto, a mandolin, and maybe one other thing. Last year I brought a fiddle to sell (turned out to be a good move) and so I probably won't be able to do more this year. Same car! If I can borrow a larger vehicle maybe I can schlep more stuff! This year I'll have some of Sheri Mignano's new Italian tune books though, plus asst'd other swag.

keithd
May-27-2005, 12:31pm
Thanks again Paul for sharing this stuff online here. I never tire of this stuff! Wish I knew about your work when I lived in SC, so many years ago now...

Eugene
May-27-2005, 12:47pm
Neal - I think the Martin A's have barely changed at all over the years. I liked the gears and the cases on earlier ones better.
The biggest difference was that the very early A styles were backed in Brazilian rosewood.

Thanks for the shots of your C, Paul. Word of a potential D got me quite worked up.

For the curious, there are a number of Martins posted in the "Post a Picture of your Bowlback" topic.

Paul Hostetter
May-27-2005, 1:16pm
Hope your heart rate has returned to normal, Eugene. Sorry for the scare!

The Style B was made into the 40s and it was always rosewood. I have found these items much closer to the mahogany As in tone and oomph than my Style C (had one in not long ago). So I’m not sure the real difference is in the wood choice so much as some other detail of manufacture, such as top thickness.

I have a neighbor who has a Style AK - all koa - which is a fantastic mandolin. The basic difference between the AK and the BK was the same as between Martin's correspondent guitars at that time, the 18K and the 28K. The lower models used plainer wood, and generally sounded better. Figure in koa usually, if not always, confers a liability on the tone when it's used for a top. I wish more people used plain koa for instruments. It looks at least as nice as walnut and it’s fine-sounding stuff.

neal
May-27-2005, 3:33pm
Paul, What's a BK? And, like everyone else, I suppose I should look for less figured on the top, but they look so durn nice when they're flamey. Thanks.

Bob DeVellis
May-27-2005, 3:41pm
Neal - Style B, koa (hence, BK).

Paul Hostetter
May-27-2005, 4:29pm
Thanks - my post above was inadvertently misleading: "...a neighbor who has a Style AK - all koa," as if the A and K stood for All and Koa. Duh, sorry. It's A (the model) + koa, and the B (the model + koa. The difference between the As and Bs is degree of decoration and basic materials. Like styles 18 and 28 in the guitars.

neal
May-27-2005, 8:49pm
That's where I was confused. I know the A stands for,well, an A style, but was unaware that they made a B style with koa. Any pics of one? And did it have a spruce top, or was it all koa?

My limited experience was the B was an A style with Brazilian rosewood and spruce and a little more ornamentation, not much but a little more and had the cool headstock and closed tuners. Any more info, please share, I find these to be very interesting.

And Paul, I really like your style 15, that's a beaut. Kinda like the L&H.

Paul Hostetter
May-27-2005, 9:19pm
The Style 15 is a lot like an L&H. More than it's like any Gibson.

Style B was rosewood and spruce, nice binding and details unless it was a BK, in which case it was all koa instead. The only BK photos I can think of are in the Longworth book. Try Google images?

cgwilsonjr
May-28-2005, 9:53am
Interseting thread. I've only played one Martin mandolin, the one I own (1977 A). It's a sweet and pleasant mandolin and a nice strummer. Not powerful but very good.

hillwilliam
May-29-2005, 3:18am
Here's my old Martin koa:

1925 AK (http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?folder_id=1292137)

Karen Kay
May-29-2005, 8:58am
Great pic's guys. #I've learned a lot reading your responses. #I know some (& that is a very relative term) about old Gibson's so I'm just expanding my mando-horizons (which is making my husband nervous...I think he has recently hidden the checkbook & credit cards)
Any body know much about 20's-30's Strad-o-lin's, Recording King or Studio King? #
KK

prayerbone
May-29-2005, 2:33pm
hi,by chance i notices this martin for sale in the uk after reading this thread..i thought i'd post a pic(havent got anything to do with the store)its going for £1,399 at hanks in london...1931 ak??its different thought u'd like to see it..same as ur friend's paul??..aj

neal
May-29-2005, 3:57pm
Hillwilliam and prayerbone, that's what I'm talking about when I mention the flame in the koa. Just plain good looking. Thanks for the pics.

Karen, start another topic about those strads, you'll get a lot of responses, much more than here. Lot's of folks here have them, and they certainly do have a cult following for that old-timey sound.

Karen Kay
May-29-2005, 5:48pm
Neal ~
OK - I'll take your advice.
Thanks -
KK

Brian KC
May-30-2005, 10:30am
Do all Martin A style mando's have a 13" scale? At some point , did they not make them with a more standard scale, i.e., 13 and 3/4" or 13 and 7/8"?
Thanks

Brian KC

Eugene
May-30-2005, 11:02am
I think (but am not entirely certain) that the A syles persisted at ca. 13" throughout...but 13 3/4" or 13 7/8" is not "more standard," only more recent.

Paul Hostetter
May-30-2005, 5:03pm
All Martin mandolins, whether bowlbacks, flatbacks or carved, had the short scale typical of violins and Neapolitan mandolins, which is right about 13". The official exceptions are the scarce ones with f-holes that have the prefix 2-. There were relatively few of these ever made, but the 2-15, 2-20 and 2-30 series had the longer Gibson scale of 13-7/8", which for some reason Mike Longworth identified as 13-3/4" in his book. Put them face-to-face with a Gibson and the nut and the bridge are right on. Simply put, it’s one fret longer than the Neapolitan scale. Most of the 2-series carved mandolins were in the simple pear-shaped style 15.

There are some anomalies not in Longworth’s book, such as a sprinkling of oval-hole 2-20s and 2-30s with the long scale. And short-scale 15s and 20s with f-holes.

Gibson introduced that longer scale, with its higher tension and greater brilliance. It was their innovation and for a long time they were the only ones who used it. It's considered normal now only because it’s been copied so much. Martin didn’t use it much.

Paul Hostetter
May-31-2005, 3:12am
PS: the Martin AK, the simpler of the two koa flatbacks, usually looked like this:

http://www.lutherie.net/martin.ak.mandolin.jpg

Sometimes it came in fancier koa.

John McKernan
Nov-07-2013, 12:43pm
Can I assume you're discussing the archtop series: styles 15, 2-15, 20, 2-20, and 2-30? #All were made with quality spruce and maple, often sportng very attractive figure, and all resulted from some of the best, most consistent craftsmanship to have originated in an American mass producer (Martin). #Personally, I don't think the f-holed models (those with the prefix 2) were very successful. #They seem too thin-toned for my taste and the top plate often seems to crack or collapse between bridge and tailpiece. #However, the oval-holed models (15, 20, and 30) were mighty tasty. #If they had appeared a few years earlier, I think they might have been very popular with the mandolin orchestra crowd. #I am very lucky in being friendly with the owner of one of only two Martin style 30 mandolins produced (I doubt the second survives; if you find it, please let me know in enough time to procure a loan). #The style 30 must be the most neatly crafted, aesthetic and graceful production mandolin I've ever seen (including anything I've seen of pre-depression Gibsons). #Mmmm...

I own a 1942 Martin 2-30 series. I love it. It's great to play, and I love the tone. It's not really loud enough for bluegrass, though. It really can't stand up to a banjo.

brunello97
Nov-07-2013, 6:53pm
John, you can't just tempt us with that. You have to post some pictures.

That's sort of the rule around here.....;)

Mick

CES
Aug-18-2016, 11:22am
Reviving an oldie here, but have a Martin style A being delivered today, and am curious as to the recommended string gauge for these. Do I need to go J62 like on my flatiron 1N (that my daughter took to college, hence the Martin purchase), or can I go a little beefier. I'm heading to google next, but figured I'd ask while I was here.

Thanks in advance for your help!

fifths
Aug-18-2016, 12:44pm
CES,
On my '29 style B, I've found lighter strings feel and intonate better, also I don't worry as much about the structural integrity. Currently running Elixir Nanoweb lights .10-.34
I would love to hear about what other well-liked options are out there in the light string world..
Also another Martin question: do the Mid-MO cases really fit these mandos?

CES
Aug-18-2016, 1:09pm
Thanks, fifths. Can't comment on the case question, but will update you on what mine arrives in and how well it fits, hopefully tonight!

bbcee
Aug-19-2016, 3:10am
@CES, I think the rule of thumb with these older 13" scale instruments is to string 'em lightly in order to prevent undue stress from string tension.

I've had good luck with Martin Lights (10-34) on my old gals, but I notice the G's get dull and boomy pretty fast. I'm waiting delivery on Cleartone 10-34's to see if they last longer.

* Geez, I just noticed how old this post was!!

CES
Aug-19-2016, 7:14pm
Bbcee, thanks! That was my suspicion, and if no one had answered would have been the choice. Yeah, this one's an oldie!

Fifths, still awaiting arrival. USPS is taking their time...

CES
Aug-23-2016, 2:18pm
Fifths, the hard shell case that came with my style A is unmarked, but unmistakenly 1970s. Not sure if it's a Martin case or not, but it does appear to be made with shorter scale mandolins in mind, and is of reasonable quality. Sorry I don't have any better info for you (though I seem to recall reading in another thread that Mike Dulak's cases fit and you've ordered one)...