Two Master Models or One Gil?

[JAK]

Generalizing that a pre-owned Gibson Master Model F5 (think Charlie Derrington signed) is going for around 11K, and a pre-owned Gilchrist F5 is going for around 22K, would you rather have two Master Models or one Gilchrist?

[samlyman]

None of the above, just one Collings MF5V Deluxe. Sounds even better to my ears...

Whatever you do - play before buying. All instruments vary, even high-end ones.

Best wishes whatever you choose! Just remember, you cannot buy love, happiness or health - or - radically improve your playing with a more expensive instrument.

[sgarrity]

I wouldn't pay much more than $18k for a used Gil F5. But to answer your question....both are equally fine mandolins. Maybe get a MM and a Gil Model 1 for the best of both worlds! :mandosmiley:

[AlanN]

or - radically improve your playing with a more expensive instrument.

Jeez, now you tell me....

[darrylicshon]

Well being i've had a problem with buying too many instruments, ofcourse i would buy one master and maybe two others at around $5-6k lots of great mandolins at that price used , then i get three

[yankees1]

One Ellis F5 and go on a cruise !

[T.D.Nydn]

Money can't buy you love...but it can come darn close!...I'll take the two mastermodels myself...

[DataNick]

Why have 2 of the same model mandolin?...That's what I'm trying to understand about your hypothetical situation.

I'd lean towards a Master Model and a McClanahan F5...YMMV

[f5joe]

Master Models are going for a good bit more than $11k.

[Denny Gies]

I'm sorta with samlyman, I just want my one Randy Wood.

[8strings]

I would acquire a Gilchrist mandolin (and I have), rather than spending a number of weeks on a cramped cruise liner, if that is the difference between a lower cost mandolin and the price of this vacation. The Gilchrist will give you pleasure for years on end, whilst the memories of the cruise will be somewhat fleeting. That is not to say that Ellis mandolins are in any way inferior instruments.

[Phil Goodson]

MM + Duff + Cruise

[Jeff Mando]

Best wishes whatever you choose! Just remember, you cannot ............radically improve your playing with a more expensive instrument.

You can, however, play just as poorly, but have much nicer tone...............:whistling:

[re simmers]

In July I played a 2003 Derrington Master Model at $12,500 that I liked better than the $22,000 Gil - both at Gruhn's. To me, the MM played easier and had more volume and more of that bell tone. That's the only time i ever played those models.

[grassrootphilosopher]

I played a couple of DMM (which go for more than 13 k - probably -; I think that a MM is indeed around 12 k). A used Gil is ... maybe ... around 17 k. I played a couple from different years (late 70ies, early 90ies and two from arould 2000).

The DMMs were very similar in feel and tone. I found that they lacked a little bit of something. To paraphrase, it felt like you had to peel off something in order to get "the real tone". That sort of kept me from really liking the DMMs. I played a Harvey period varnished Fern that was different in a good way.

The Gils were interesting. They had their similarities. But there was a wide variation from the early Gil up to the 2000s Gils. I would also put different prices on instruments from different periods. While the early Gil was nice ("The Gilchrist" logo) it was neither as complex and as powerful as later Gils. The early 90ies Gils were very nice yet compared to contemporary builders (Ellis etc.) they were on par yet not above them. The 2000 Gils were from a different breed. They were very powerful and complex (some might say that they were too heavy on the bass, but that´s a matter of taste).

Which would I like...? Maybe a post 2000 Gil A-5 (for around 14 k) and a ... well I don´t know.

[grassrootphilosopher]

None of the above, just one Collings MF5V Deluxe. Sounds even better to my ears...

Best wishes ...you cannot ...radically improve your playing with a more expensive instrument.

I beg to differ. While I think it has nothing to do with being "expensive", more expensive instruments are generally better as a rule of thumb. Is a Collings better than an Eastman? Most would agree it is. Will the better instrument increase your playing abilities? While the car will not the driver make it is for certain that a driver drives more easily with a better vehicle. When I "upgraded" an instrument (most significantly noticed when I changed from my first guitar to my 90 Martin D-16M and then to my vintage Southerner Jumbo) my playing kicked up twenty notches or so...

So as a rule I would say: Buy the best instrument you can afford to play the best you can.

[Ivan Kelsall]

If i had say $20k to spare (£15,300 UK),i'd be visiting as many 'good' mandolin stores as i could manage, & playing as many mandolins as i could of ALL price ranges & makes. Only then would / could i make a choice.

There are so many terrific builders building today, that actually choosing just one mandolin is something of a task & i wouldn't rule out any of them until i'd played one of their instruments. Also - we have such mandolins as those produced by Northfield,not mega-buck mandolins,but certainly instruments to be take very seriously.

I only wish that i was lucky enough to have such a task in front of me & the cash to back it up !,:(
Ivan;)

[Teak]

I would choose neither set but put that $22k into savings so that I don't have to eat cat food during retirement. :popcorn:

I can see professionals spending a ton of money on a very good instrument since that is their "bulldozer" for producing income, but for my average skills I get by fine with my $650 and $2,600 mandolins.

If it is truly a choice that you are considering (I doubt that you would buy two of the same model), I would suggest spending only $11k on one Master Model and saving the other $11k.

[9lbShellhamer]

$22k to spend on Mandolins... Can buy a lot of wood and wire.


1. Gibson F5 Custom from TMS
2. Collings MT2
3. Heiden A5
4. Pava Player Oval Hole
5. Ellis A5.
6. Kentucky KM150

A mix of the new and used market could buy all of these for $22k.


Personally, If I had unlimited funds I'd probably just want the nicest F I could get, the nicest A I could get, the nicest oval hole I could get, and a good beater to camp with.

[JeffD]

So as a rule I would say: Buy the best instrument you can afford to .

This is what I think. The differences between the two DMMs is likely to be minimal and I don't see a whole lot of reason for owning both. The Gil is likely to be amazing.

Now a signed Loar worth 150,000 or more, that's a different story. I would rather not have that, just because of the immense responsibility - both fiscally and historically. In that case I would take the money and go a little crazy.

Still, I like to get mandolins that are different from each other, different feel, different sound, different applications, etc. So I would not buy two DMMs anyway.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

John, Gibson and Gilchrist approaches are very different - generally speaking. I'd expect Gibsons to sound brighter with more mid range. Gils on the other hand are very loud, more bassy (some may say "tubby" or "boomy", others "woody") and "modern" sounding, especially the earlier Gils. (As opposed to the screaming - high lonesome - e-string of Monroe's Loar.)
Most of these earlier mandos were not at all intended to sound like old Loar F5s, and they don't. They are Steve Gilchrist's own idea of what a mandolin should sound like, and what modern players might prefer. (A lot of those mandos have x-bracing.) Ronnie McCoury's (# 128 1981) seems to be a favorite among enthusiasts.
As for Steve's latest mandos, he wrote the following (in a private email; BTW Steve is a super nice fellow and shares a lot of his knowledge):

"For a long time I was building an X braced sound I had developed back in the 80's with more emphasis on the bottom end response. Mike's #536 is a good example of the // braced sound that I have worked hard on developing more recently. This sound has more emphasis on the mid-range frequencies and produces more "crunch", projection and clarity but still retains good bass response.
It takes a little longer to develop and play-in, but when doing so produces more of the sound I think Monroe's July 9 would have had live. A lot of Mike's sound is Mike of course, but he does mention in conversations that he is hearing more and more the sound of old #73987 the more he beats on it ;)."

Myself, I've made my choice (as of yet) and own 4 Gibson F5s (2000, 2005, 2009 and a very old one), all quite different from each other. And I played quite a few Gilchrists (# 500 ex-Compton included). But that was before Mike Compton's # 536, which may have started a new Gilchrist era.

John, if you care for a loud mando with a good bottom end, go for a Gilchrist. He is the best there is today, I think. For generally brighter Gibson sound, go for a Gibson or any of those, who strive to get close to the Loar sound and feel, such as Duff, Hogan, Kemnitzer, Vessel, Wiens and certainly others.

Happy MAS,
Hendrik

[DataNick]

Excellent informative post Henry!

[Canoedad]

Ok so, fourteen Master Models or one Loar?
:)

[Ron McMillan]

One Ellis F5 and anything but a cruise.

[yankees1]

One Ellis F5 and anything but a cruise. You jut haven't been on the right cruise !

[FLATROCK HILL]

John, if you care for a loud mando with a good bottom end, go for a Gilchrist. He is the best there is today, I think. For generally brighter Gibson sound, go for a Gibson or any of those, who strive to get close to the Loar sound and feel, such as Duff, Hogan, Kemnitzer, Vessel, Wiens and certainly others.

Thanks Henry Eagle. I love to hear (read) your opinions about Loar and other top quality mandolins.
As a non-expert, I would like to offer my opinion, or at least my impression re your comment above.

I personally would not include Paul Duff along with those other builders chasing specifically after the Loar sound. I think that in the beginning, like most any of these builders, Paul was striving to build a Loar-like F5. While the other builders you mentioned (definitely Wiens) may still be chasing the Loar sound, I think the more recent Duff mandolins are modeled more after Gilchrist.

I don't know this of course; it is just my opinion.

Clark

[JAK]

Interesting information. But, how many of you have ACTUALLY PLAYED A GILCHRIST and compared it directly with a Gibson Master Model?

[sgarrity]

I've owned both. Stellar instruments in every way. Do you want a mandolin made by a single artisan who is arguably the greatest mandolin luthier of our time when you consider quality and output. Or do you want a mandolin made by a small team of skilled craftsmen from an iconic American company who essentially created the mandolin as we know it today. As with any builder, some may be "better" than others depending on the tone you're after.

[Phil Goodson]

...
I personally would not include Paul Duff along with those other builders chasing specifically after the Loar sound. I think that in the beginning, like most any of these builders, Paul was striving to build a Loar-like F5. While the other builders you mentioned (definitely Wiens) may still be chasing the Loar sound, I think the more recent Duff mandolins are modeled more after Gilchrist.

I don't know this of course; it is just my opinion.

Clark

I totally agree with this. My Duff is my all time favorite mandolin and sounds fairly Gil-like (complex overtones). My Distressed Master Model is very 'Gibson' sounding (focused, not as many overtones) and I like it a lot, but VERY different from the Duff.

I've compared Gils and MMs at Carter Vintage and to my ear they sound very different (although I like both).

[goose 2]

At on point I owned a Gil model 5, an '02 MM, and an '03. DMM. After a bit it was down to the MM and the DMM and now for the last 10 years, the DMM. I love the craftsmanship of Gilchrist mandolins but the sound that I love comes from a good MM. No other mandolin that I have ever owned or played gives me that powerful and satisfying tone. No other mandolin gives you that ball peen hammer striking a railroad tie clarity across the fretboard like the MMs do. I owned two for a long time but you only realy need one. Pick the one you love most and then buy an old Martin.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Philpool - "....(although I like both).". That's the sticking point right there !. Just how do you choose if you like both but have the cash for only one ?. For me,that would be a real dilemma. Suppose i loved the sound of both a really good Gibson & a good Gil.,the thing that would swing it for me,all other things being equal,would be the Gibson name & it's long association with Bluegrass via a certain W.S.Monroe. I've made no secret of it on here,that IMHO,the Gibson name is synonymous with Bluegrass as far as mandolins & banjos go & if i could find a good Gibson mandolin over here ie. a Sam Bush or Goldrush model,i'd be very hard put not to have a sniff !,
Ivan;)

[Hendrik Ahrend]

I totally agree with this. My Duff is my all time favorite mandolin and sounds fairly Gil-like (complex overtones). My Distressed Master Model is very 'Gibson' sounding (focused, not as many overtones) and I like it a lot, but VERY different from the Duff.

I've compared Gils and MMs at Carter Vintage and to my ear they sound very different (although I like both).

Very interesting, Phil. I had kind of an opposite experience. I compared an older Duff to my Loar F5, and - although x-braced - it came surprisingly close, way closer than several Gils I tried. But I'd be glad to admit that Paul is not going after the Loar sound anymore, even though the recent Duffs look more loarish than the earlier ones. Trying only one Duff may not be enough after all. (One witness is no witness.)
Can't wait to play more recent Duffs and recent Gils.
All older Gils I tried, Mark Stoffel's among them, had a tubby sound with a lot of bass, not so much "complex overtones" - to my ear. What Chris Thile finds in the Loar sound he called "so much high end information", which I translate to "complex overtones". You may not agree, though. Heck, it's a wide subject - and a lot of fun.

[Demetrius]

Just buy one of these and call it a day...
149884
149885

[lukmanohnz]

$22k to spend on Mandolins... Can buy a lot of wood and wire.


1. Gibson F5 Custom from TMS
2. Collings MT2
3. Heiden A5
4. Pava Player Oval Hole
5. Ellis A5.
6. Kentucky KM150

A mix of the new and used market could buy all of these for $22k.


Personally, If I had unlimited funds I'd probably just want the nicest F I could get, the nicest A I could get, the nicest oval hole I could get, and a good beater to camp with.
I went down the path of multiple instruments in the first two decades of my guitar-playing life, but have reverted to the path of one instrument per type (one six string steel, one electric, one bass, one mandolin) and focusing on finding that one instrument that speaks to me. But as Troy says, $22K is a generous budget. I'd probably get the best A5 I could find and use the balance of funds to get a Lawrence Smart mandola.

[JAK]

Like Goose 2 wrote, I too have found that the Master Models I've played have a distinct sound that is very pleasing; rich, round, full, bell-like tone that is specific to these mandolins. Haven't played a Gil, so can't compare to a MM.

[jimbob]

MM and $ 10-12K in my pocket would be my choice.

[9lbShellhamer]

I've owned both. Stellar instruments in every way. Do you want a mandolin made by a single artisan who is arguably the greatest mandolin luthier of our time when you consider quality and output. Or do you want a mandolin made by a small team of skilled craftsmen from an iconic American company who essentially created the mandolin as we know it today. As with any builder, some may be "better" than others depending on the tone you're after.

How would you compare your Heiden A to the Gil's you've played? Specifically pertaining to overtones and trebles.

[DataNick]

How would you compare your Heiden A to the Gil's you've played? Specifically pertaining to overtones and trebles.

Well, he kept the Heiden A and sold the Gil F5...having played several Gils and Shaun's Heiden, I think I know why...YMMV ;)

[Don Grieser]

Well, he kept the Heiden A and sold the Gil F5.

I did the same thing.

[Mark Seale]

Interesting information. But, how many of you have ACTUALLY PLAYED A GILCHRIST and compared it directly with a Gibson Master Model?

I've owned both and still own the Gil. The MM was a stellar instrument, the Gil is another level altogether. The Gil has needed a bunch of playing and heavier strings than when I got it, but it continues to knock my socks off every time I take it out of the case. I also have a Monteleone style B that is every bit the equal of the Gil, but very different. But, that's what suits my ear and my hands.

[almeriastrings]

I think at this level (and this merely my own personal opinion, of course) but it all comes down to preferences and also individual variability between instruments.Let's face it - all of these are top tier instruments.

My own preferences, having played all of those named here (except a Duff, which I have not encountered yet), were that the two that appealed most were a Heiden (Heritage model) and an Ellis. I found myself liking these above anything else... there was an X-braced Gilchrist that was nice... but I still preferred the other two. Others might find completely the opposite.

[Mark Seale]

I think at this level (and this merely my own personal opinion, of course) but it all comes down to preferences and also individual variability between instruments.Let's face it - all of these are top tier instruments.

My own preferences, having played all of those named here (except a Duff, which I have not encountered yet), were that the two that appealed most were a Heiden (Heritage model) and an Ellis. I found myself liking these above anything else... there was an X-braced Gilchrist that was nice... but I still preferred the other two. Others might find completely the opposite.

Agreed. When I bought the Monteleone I also played a Heiden A that had a tremendous sound, but I couldn't quite get comfortable with the neck size/shape. From a sound standpoint, it had all the goods, but every time I picked it up the first thing I noticed was how it fit my left hand. My take was it was different enough that I wouldn't easily adjust to it, but man did it sing.

[sgarrity]

Well, he kept the Heiden A and sold the Gil F5...having played several Gils and Shaun's Heiden, I think I know why...YMMV ;)

I've bought and sold A LOT of mandolins but the Heiden A5 has stayed for 8 years now. It just fits me. I'm bonded to it. It's the last mandolin my grandparents heard me play when they were still with us and I played it at their funerals. There are so many practice hours and jams reflected in the nicks, dings, and pick marks. just opening the case brings back so many memories of friends, family, fun, and good music. I just can't imagine parting with it. And it helps that it's one of the finest mandolins I've ever had the pleasure of playing, much less owning. I am tired of the frets though. I prefer flat boards but the Heiden is radiused and Michael feels strongly that the radiused bridge imparts a certain amount of its tonal character. So I think it's going in for some smaller frets at some point.

With that being said, I'd take back the Gil F5 or the MM in a heartbeat. Both were great mandolins. But I found out during their time with me that that was just too much $$$ tied up in mandolins for me. I was also recovering from a "traumatic nerve event" in my left hand at the time and wasn't able to play as well or as much as I was previously. That Gil was a bluegrass beast. Cut like crazy in a jam. The Heiden rides the fence between traditional and modern tones. Not too fundamental but not too many overtones. Throw in my Kimble F5 and I've got all the wires and wood I need! :mandosmiley:

[JAK]

Enjoyed your video playing the Kimble Shaun. Do you ever entertain the idea of getting another Gilchrist?

[JAK]

Four (4) Gilchrists in the classifieds now; selling to get two Gibson MMs?

[sgarrity]

The one Gil that REALLY caught my attention was Charlie Derrington's old F5 Classical model. That mandolin was the perfect blend of big, fat tone that still had focus and power. I actually thought about selling/trading the Heiden for that one. But I knew I'd be mad at myself forever if I did. If I bought another Gil or MM something I currently own would have to be sold and I'm at a place where I really enjoy what I have. But MAS can be a funny thing. Never say never....:grin:

[re simmers]

Look at the classified ads - wow! If you have any MAS symptoms at all, don't look unless you have some cash.

[Andrew B. Carlson]

This is admittedly a hard choice for me. But it made me wonder..... what have the MM prices been doing on the second hand market? Gil's are down just a tad, but what about the Gibbys doing?

[Mando-Mauler]

Hey John, I have! I own a 1979 Gil and have compared it with a couple of Gibson Master models. My F5 Gilchrist is not as loud or strident as later models but has a "dark" sort of tone I really like. It is nothing like Gibbos of around the same period. I like them both. Tonality and sound is personal thing, what you may favour another may not. Just look at the responses to this thread: there are lots of different personal favourites. My favourite beater & gig mando is a rough $750 ugly thing made from an ancient cello. It rings and sings and sounds the best of all my more than 20 mandolins.

[JAK]

If memory serves me right there was a Gibson MM (used) last month that the Music Emporium had for a little over 10K. It sold fast!

[carleshicks]

I would say the Derrington Era Master Models have an average selling price of $12,500. I have seen some that sell (as far as I know ) for as much as $14,500 and some as low as $10,000. I think that is pretty consistent over the past 3 years. In my opinion I wouldn't sell mine for that.

[red7flag]

According to the Gibson website, new MMs list price for $18,000, yet I have not seen any for sale. Has anyone seen a new MM for sale and for how much, please?

[kudzugypsy]

I can agree with most of the posters that these are very 2 different mandos...on many levels. I have played both and have owned a Gil since 2008 (original owner) - that mando went from one of the brightest i'd ever played to one of the meatiest in a matter of a few years - it is amazing how its changed. I was talking to Hugh Hansen the other day about it since he was at Gruhns during the era they were Steve's distributor and he said they all were like that from those batches. verrrrry powerful instruments - you can hardly overdrive these mandos. they could be....almost too "thick and heavy" though (not muddy or woofy - still clear) - it can be a slow response to the player where a brighter more mid-range instrument like a MM will be quicker where the notes really jump out. "pop" may be the word i'm looking for - its something a player would sense vs what you would hear from the instrument.

Let's not dismiss the fact that with both of these you are paying a premium for that headstock logo vs comparable instruments

[JAK]

The Mandolin Store recently had a new Gibson MM for sale, listed at $18,299.00. It sold, but the pics and info are still on their website.