Flat wound life?

[Paul Busman]

I've had flat wound strings on two acoustic mandolins, one electric, and a tenor banjo.
They've been on there for over a year and to my ear they still sound good and they stay in tune well. What's the average lifetime for flat wound strings? When I played standard strings, I'd definitely hear them going dull, and new ones sounded really bright. The flat wound strings never sounded super bright-- already broken in.

[MediumMando5722]

I've used them on electric bass and on my jazz guitar, but I don't like them.

My thought was they never go dead because they were that way from the beginning.

[samlyman]

Flatwound strings last longer for me as well. I use them on my National RM1 because they make the instrument sound warmer. The decrease in volume is not an issue for me. I also have used them on my Mid-Missouri mando and they sounded great on that for fiddle tunes.

Clifton Park - my dad was born there and I was born in Schenectady. If you are ever in Scotia stop into Payette Music Traders and say hi to my brother Alan who owns the store.

[Shelagh Moore]

I'll often get a year out of them if the mandolin is lightly played. My National has flatwounds and is used a lot... but I usually still get around six months life there.

[foldedpath]

The trouble with keeping strings on for a year -- any strings, not just flat wound -- is intonation shift, due to differential stretching and micro dents from fret contact.

You get your best intonation with a brand new string that is consistent from one end to the other. After a month, or a few months (depending on how often you play), the string is stretched and dented more on one side of the 12th fret than the other, and the intonation starts to go sour. Most of us just don't hit that many notes above the 12th fret. A string can't intonate well, when one half of the metal material doesn't match the other half because it's been stretched and dented.

This happens with all strings, the effect is just hidden a bit more with flatwounds because the upper harmonics aren't as prominent. You don't get the "sour" sound as early as you do with brighter strings, but the fundamental pitch will still be off when checked with an electronic tuner. I think this is what tends to confuse the issue with longevity of flat wounds vs. bronze wound strings. The darker tone tends to hide intonation issues.

[sblock]

The trouble with keeping strings on for a year -- any strings, not just flat wound -- is intonation shift, due to differential stretching and micro dents from fret contact.

You get your best intonation with a brand new string that is consistent from one end to the other. After a month, or a few months (depending on how often you play), the string is stretched and dented more on one side of the 12th fret than the other, and the intonation starts to go sour. Most of us just don't hit that many notes above the 12th fret. A string can't intonate well, when one half of the metal material doesn't match the other half because it's been stretched and dented.

This happens with all strings, the effect is just hidden a bit more with flatwounds because the upper harmonics aren't as prominent. You don't get the "sour" sound as early as you do with brighter strings, but the fundamental pitch will still be off when checked with an electronic tuner. I think this is what tends to confuse the issue with longevity of flat wounds vs. bronze wound strings. The darker tone tends to hide intonation issues.

+1 Finally, a correct explanation about the real science behind string longevity! Those who claim to get several years' life out of their mandolin strings, regardless of the type, seem to be OK with the inevitable intonation problems that come along with these. Perhaps their ears are not as sensitive, or their brains are more tolerant of such issues? I've jammed with folks who can't seem to tune their mandolins to within much better than a quarter-tone, so these same folks are probably oblivious to problems with intonation due to old strings. The advent of the electronic tuner has helped a lot with getting them in tune, but it doesn't do a thing for poor intonation. Strings do not last for years. Not if you want them to sound at pitch, that is. But not everybody cares about that, so there you are...

[David L]

String life is dependent on many things: type of frets, force of playing, amount of playing, acidity of the players hands, etc. That said, flat-wounds last three to five times as long as regular strings.

[foldedpath]

String life is dependent on many things: type of frets, force of playing, amount of playing, acidity of the players hands, etc. That said, flat-wounds last three to five times as long as regular strings.

Not true for intonation. Flat wounds don't get a magic exemption against stretching and fret contact that degrades intonation at the same rate as bronze-wound strings.

[Polecat]

String life is dependent on many things: type of frets, force of playing, amount of playing, acidity of the players hands, etc. That said, flat-wounds last three to five times as long as regular strings.

+1 (with slight reservations)

If I string a mandolin with, for example, J74s and play that instrument exclusively, I kill them in about 2 weeks. With flat-wounds (Thomastik or Fisoma), it takes about a month. I am not of the "flat-wounds sound dead from the get go" school - it is more the change of tone than the intonation issue that prompts me to restring. Coated round-wounds (Elixir, EXP) also last a little over a month before the coating starts to break down and they become unpleasant to play - when that happens, the loss of brilliance happens seemingly overnight.

[colorado_al]

So many variables, including humidity, acidity, instrument setup, amount of play time on the strings, if they are de-tuned between sessions, and more. On my instruments, Flat wounds last longer than round wounds by about 2x. I change them about every 6-8 weeks. If I could afford it, I would change them monthly. I generally change the unwound strings every 2-3 weeks. I think that Flatwounds resist fretwear a bit better than round wounds, due to a larger string surface area in contact with the frets. I think the hardness of the stainless steel vs bronze helps resit wear also. I have very low action setups, so string stretch is not as rapid as with higher action setup. I'm also able to lower the action a bit with flatwounds vs roundwounds. However, all strings lose their elasticity over time, just from being under tension. I would suggest that you keep a set of new strings in your case and when you are having trouble staying in tune, or start to notice intonation issues, change them out. There is no way to tell from the other side of the internet, if your strings are wearing out or not, but my guess is that they are, if you haven't changed them in a while. I'm always pleasantly surprised at how wonderful my mandolin sounds after a string change. While I'm sensitive to intonation issues, the change as the strings wear is gradual, and one day to the next, they sound about the same. When you go from worn out strings to new, the change is dramatic. As I said, if I could afford it, I would change more often. If you are one of those "acid hands" folks, coated bronze or stainless strings will last you longer, but they will still stretch and get fretwear. I'll try to take some pictures of my flatwounds strings before I change them out to show the fretwear.

[Tavy]

For me the wound strings on a FW74 set will last me 6 months easily - that's played every day.

The plain strings are a different issue - they wear out just as fast as any other brand - but of course single plain strings are cheap :)

[colorado_al]

Not true for intonation. Flat wounds don't get a magic exemption against stretching and fret contact that degrades intonation at the same rate as bronze-wound strings.

I think that they wear more slowly from fret contact, due to increased surface area contact with frets and harder winding material. Also, the string tension is lower so the inner core does not stretch as fast. They are still subject to the same type of forces, but their composition allows them to resist wear better than phosphor bronze strings.

149777149778

Think about the point of contact between a roundwound string and the fretwire. Smaller diameter round winding on round fret, which results in one or 2 point contacts (or possiblly a few more points of contact with wider frets). On a flat wound string, much more of the surface area of the string is in contact with the fretwire, distributing the load and wear. Also, with the difference in tension, especially on the G course, it takes more force to fret the roundwound string vs flatwound, resulting in more wear of the winding, and more stretching of the internal core wire. Add in the increased hardness of the stainless winding, and flatwounds simply last longer.

Roundwound - more force on smaller surface area on softer material = more wear. Higher string tension causes faster core stretch and fatigue.
Flatwound - lower force on larger surface area on harder material = less wear. Lower string tension causes slower core stretch and fatigue.

[mandobassman]

I've been using the same set of FW-74's for about 18 months now. They still sound great. Usually I've changed them by now, but they still sound good. Since I started using the FW-74's I've been averaging 12-16 months.

[sblock]

For the reasons stated concisely and clearly by colorado_al, (only slightly!) lower-tension flatwounds that have a harder winding material and offer a slightly greater fret contact area have the potential to last longer. They can last for about twice as long, in fact. Or even three times as long. But not for years! Not unless you play with a very light touch, that is, and not as frequently as most of us. And coated strings can also last a bit longer, too. Body chemistry also plays a role in string lifetime. Some folks have to change strings more often than others.

[foldedpath]

I think that they wear more slowly from fret contact, due to increased surface area contact with frets and harder winding material. Also, the string tension is lower so the inner core does not stretch as fast. They are still subject to the same type of forces, but their composition allows them to resist wear better than phosphor bronze strings.

I remain skeptical that there is a "get out of intonation jail free" card for flat wounds due to material or construction. If anything, having more of the string material in contact with the frets will cause a larger fret ding on the string.

I'm not 100% sure about this, but I suspect it's the fret contact that causes most of the damage to intonation, along with pick wear (see below) and not so much the stretching. Notice how long fiddle players go before string change? It may be partly due to the much higher cost of violin strings, and also the way they can compensate with small finger adjustments. But I think the main reason is that they're not damaging the strings nearly as much with finger pressure on the fretboard, compared to fret dings on a mandolin string.

Fiddlers are also not damaging a contact point on the string at the other side of the 12th fret, where we're constantly hitting it with a flatpick. Whether you use flats or roundwound, there's no getting around that differential wear from pick contact.

[colorado_al]

I remain skeptical that there is a "get out of intonation jail free" card for flat wounds due to material or construction. If anything, having more of the string material in contact with the frets will cause a larger fret ding on the string.

I'm not 100% sure about this, but I suspect it's the fret contact that causes most of the damage to intonation, along with pick wear (see below) and not so much the stretching. Notice how long fiddle players go before string change? It may be partly due to the much higher cost of violin strings, and also the way they can compensate with small finger adjustments. But I think the main reason is that they're not damaging the strings nearly as much with finger pressure on the fretboard, compared to fret dings on a mandolin string.

Fiddlers are also not damaging a contact point on the string at the other side of the 12th fret, where we're constantly hitting it with a flatpick. Whether you use flats or roundwound, there's no getting around that differential wear from pick contact.

I appreciate your skepticism. That's what makes for good discussion, and good science.
In my mind, there is no "get out of intonation jail free" issue. The larger surface contact area and lower force that flatwounds require, coupled with the harder winding material reduce wear of the winding, which I think is the main driver of string wear on wound strings. In addition, the density of the flatwound winding will cause the variation to be lower as the string wears. On a roundwound string, the winding density varies considerably from the edge of the winding to the middle. On flatwound strings it does not vary. The string shape on a round wound string changes more dramatically from fret wear, compared to the original string shape, and more quickly.
As I said, the strings are subject to the same forces, though lower tension flatwound strings have lower force applied. In addition, flatwound strings distribute that lower force over a larger surface area and are made of a harder material. Due to those 3 factors, the material wears slower.
Flatwounds still wear due to the same, albeit lower, forces applied to roundwound strings. They just do it more slowly. This allows their intonation to stay more consistent over a longer period of time.

Whether you like the sound from roundwounds or flatwounds better, is another issue altogether.

[Polecat]

Flat wound strings certainly do eventually fail to intonate correctly, as I have found if I am too lazy, or too much of a skinflint to change them in time. Whether they are more robust in this regard than round-wounds I couldn't say, as a loss of brilliance (which I attribute to a mixture of metal fatigue and corrosion) is generally my motivation for changing strings. The strings I use only have the E string as plain wire (I tried the D'Addario FW74s but didn't like them), and I have the impression that it is of a slightly softer steel than standard "bluegrass" E strings; on occasion I have substituted GHS 0.012" strings when I've broken an E string - the GHSs are louder and feel as if they are under higher tension, which I believe is physically impossible if they are tuned the same as the european strings.

[mandobassman]

I remain skeptical that there is a "get out of intonation jail free" card for flat wounds due to material or construction. If anything, having more of the string material in contact with the frets will cause a larger fret ding on the string.

Certainly flatwound strings are not impervious to intonation issues. That's the only reason I ever change them. However, I used roundwound strings for many years before switching to flatwounds about 19 years ago and the biggest difference I have noticed between the two types is the degree in which the windings wear from the frets. I would notice large divits in the round windings within a few months whereas the flat windings barely show any wear on the windings after more than a year. I think that's why intonation is not as much of a factor with flatwound as it is with roundwound. Plus, I believe that bronze is softer that stainless steel, which would make it wear faster.

I have always felt that the main reason for flatwound longevity is the fact that there is no space between the windings where skin old normally build up and kill string life.

This is just my opinion and not necessarily based on fact.

[mandroid]

The same Newtone Nickel round wound strings I had on my Hodson D'jangolin when I got it, are still doing fine ,

Its the plain Ones I've replaced, the E's obviously when they broke..

[mandobassman]

I have attached a photo of one the G strings from my backup mandolin. These strings were the previous set I had on my main mandolin and were about a year old when they were switched to this mando. It's hard to capture detail with a phone camera but it's pretty clear that there is no wear from the frets on these strings. Even on 2 mandolins in over a year there is almost no wear.

[foldedpath]

I have attached a photo of one the G strings from my backup mandolin. These strings were the previous set I had on my main mandolin and were about a year old when they were switched to this mando. It's hard to capture detail with a phone camera but it's pretty clear that there is no wear from the frets on these strings. Even on 2 mandolins in over a year there is almost no wear.

The kind of wear that affects intonation isn't going to be seen on a photo like that (you'd need to get a LOT closer, into field microscope territory). And of course you can't see differential stretching that deforms the metal. The acid test would be setting up your mandolin for as close to perfect intonation as you can get with new strings. Then check the intonation with a good electronic tuner after a month, six months, or a year.

Anyone who isn't seeing an intonation drift on an electronic tuner after a year, probably isn't playing the mandolin very often. Or the mandolin itself isn't capable of being set up with good intonation in the first place. That does tend to muddy the waters a bit.
;)

[colorado_al]

The kind of wear that affects intonation isn't going to be seen on a photo like that (you'd need to get a LOT closer, into field microscope territory). And of course you can't see differential stretching that deforms the metal. The acid test would be setting up your mandolin for as close to perfect intonation as you can get with new strings. Then check the intonation with a good electronic tuner after a month, six months, or a year.

Anyone who isn't seeing an intonation drift on an electronic tuner after a year, probably isn't playing the mandolin very often. Or the mandolin itself isn't capable of being set up with good intonation in the first place. That does tend to muddy the waters a bit.
;)
I love the idea of a testable problem.
I think a great test would be to string a mandolin with a combination of flatwound and roundwound strings. G and D courses get one of each. Then play the hell out of it for a month or 2 and compare. Certainly would not recommend this on your stage instrument, but practice mando would be great for it!

[mandobassman]

I love the idea of a testable problem.
I think a great test would be to string a mandolin with a combination of flatwound and roundwound strings. G and D courses get one of each. Then play the hell out of it for a month or 2 and compare. Certainly would not recommend this on your stage instrument, but practice mando would be great for it!

That's brilliant! I just might try it. I'm picking up another mandolin this Saturday. Maybe I'll conduct this experiment with my old beater. And take cleaner photos with my good camera equipment at home. (I'm still at work and only have my phone camera available).

[lenf12]

I'm at about a year with the D'A EFW-74s and they still sound great and the intonation is "pretty good", though not "exactly perfect". On a 100 year old F-4 with a (perhaps) Loar era adjustable bridge, pretty good is good enough for me. And remember that the G strings on the EFW's are .036" so I would have to alter the (perhaps) Loar era bridge to get the intonation spot on.

The last strings I used on this mandolin were D'A EFT-74s. phos/bronze 0.039" round wound strings that were "flattened" by grinding them. Even the EFTs seem to last me longer, than the EJ-74 or EJ-75s and I never noticed an intonation problem until about the 6 month mark. In search of a different voice for this '16 F-4 mandolin, the stainless EFW-74s are just what I wanted to hear and I'm very happy with the change and their 1 year+ longevity.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[Paul Busman]

Flatwound strings last longer for me as well. I use them on my National RM1 because they make the instrument sound warmer. The decrease in volume is not an issue for me. I also have used them on my Mid-Missouri mando and they sounded great on that for fiddle tunes.

Clifton Park - my dad was born there and I was born in Schenectady. If you are ever in Scotia stop into Payette Music Traders and say hi to my brother Alan who owns the store.

Been there and met Alan who's a nice guy with a nice store. Alas, we just moved down to Maryland!

Back to the strings-- I play mainly Irish tunes and rarely go up the neck very far, particularly on the wound strings so intonation up the neck isn't a real problem for me.

[dhergert]

The D'A EFTs have last a long time for me on my F9 also.

Due to non-standard tuning, I use a custom set made up of course #4 and #3 from the EFTs and plain strings in custom gauges for course #2 and #1. The EFTs do come with a wound 2nd course which I don't use.

These strings are going on 4 years old now and they still sound and feel great. I clean them obsessively after each playing session.

-- Don


... Even the EFTs seem to last me longer, than the EJ-74 or EJ-75s and I never noticed an intonation problem until about the 6 month mark. ...

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[sblock]

No, sorry, but I do not believe that D'Addario EFT's last 4 years with regular playing. Six months seems more like it. And cleaning them obsessively is not the issue. The problem is that the metal fatigues and wears differentially along the string length, leading to intonation problems when fretted. Of course, some folks seem to be oblivious to this, I guess.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I always thought that my 3 / 4/ 5 / 6 month old strings sounded good - until i put a new set on & then i realised just how poor they sounded. You possibly don't get the same drop off in tone on a banjo that you get on a mandolin,but new strings always amazed me.

The only strings that did sound excellent after 8 months,was the first set of DR MD11's that i put on my Weber. They sounded so good from the off that i kept them on until the colour of the strings behind the bridge was coal black. They still sounded terrific.The bright trebles had lost their edge & the whole string set was wonderfully balanced,
Ivan;)

[Paul Busman]

The trouble with keeping strings on for a year -- any strings, not just flat wound -- is intonation shift, due to differential stretching and micro dents from fret contact.

You get your best intonation with a brand new string that is consistent from one end to the other. After a month, or a few months (depending on how often you play), the string is stretched and dented more on one side of the 12th fret than the other, and the intonation starts to go sour.

I'm not quite sure I get this. The string is stretched between the nut (or post) and bridge (or tailpiece). Why would part of it be more stretched than another? If you stretch a rubber band between your two hands, the whole thing stretches evenly- why is a mandolin string any different?

I can see how micro dents in strings would be different parts of a string. The parts over the lower frets would naturally get more of these since they contact the frets more than the upper parts. Are you saying that due to the dents the string needs to be fretted with more pressure, or that the dents change the vibrating mass of the string? In either case, the change would seem to be pretty tiny.

How exactly would you go about checking intonation, BTW?

[foldedpath]

I'm not quite sure I get this. The string is stretched between the nut (or post) and bridge (or tailpiece). Why would part of it be more stretched than another? If you stretch a rubber band between your two hands, the whole thing stretches evenly- why is a mandolin string any different?

It's because most of us here don't play many (or any) notes above the 12th fret. All the stretching happens between the nut and the 12th fret, where we press the strings down behind the frets.

If we only played like some electric guitar players do, very lightly touching the string to the top of the fret, it might not be as bad. But on a mandolin it can take some pressure to get a clean note, and that slightly stretches the string behind the fret, where you're pressing it down on the fretboard. It's just a minuscule impact on the string, but you do it over and over. How many individual notes do you play in a month?

All of this (for most of us) happens on just 1/2 the string length; the area below the 12th fret. The other half of the string is virgin territory, except for the zone where you're whacking it with a flatpick, which causes yet another discontinuity in the metal that doesn't happen on the other side of the 12th fret.


How exactly would you go about checking intonation, BTW?

First you get the mandolin in near-as-dammit intonation with bridge position adjustment as usual. We'll assume the frets are correctly placed, the action isn't too high, the bridge is compensated, and all the other usual adjustments for good intonation. We'll also assume a good electronic tuner with a display method that can show small enough variance in pitch (i.e. not necessarily what you'd use at a jam). The only clip-on tuners I'd use for this would be a Peterson StroboClip or a TC Polytune, and that's still not ideal because they don't show variation in cents (100th's) of pitch. A bench strobe tuner would be better. That's what your local tech would use when setting up intonation on a fretted instrument.

Put on a new set of strings because this can only be done with new strings. Tune the strings to pitch. Hit a harmonic on the 12th fret on every pair of strings, and compare it to the fretted note at the 12th fret. It should match or be very, very close. That's what we'd all consider decent intonation with new strings.

Now, use the electronic tuner to check the pitch of fretted notes on the 5th to 7th frets on all four string courses. This is the area where intonation problems will show up the most, due to the compromise between frets, string height, and a 12TET tuning system. The notes should still be pretty close to dead on, with new strings. Write down exactly how many cents in pitch they're NOT dead on, which is why it would be better to use a bench tuner that can show variation in cents.

Okay, you're done for now. Play the snot out of your mandolin for a month, six months, or a year. Then run that last test again. Use the tuner to check how much the 12th fret harmonic varies from the fretted 12th note on each string, and check those notes in the 5th to 7th fret area. Compare the drift to what you measured with new strings.

This is just visual confirmation (on the tuner) of what we all hear anyway with new vs. old strings. But because we're good at fooling ourselves without objective data, and we're all terrible at remembering what things sound like in the past, and frankly we all hate changing strings anyway... it might help drive home the point.
:)

[sblock]

I'm not quite sure I get this. The string is stretched between the nut (or post) and bridge (or tailpiece). Why would part of it be more stretched than another? If you stretch a rubber band between your two hands, the whole thing stretches evenly- why is a mandolin string any different?

I can see how micro dents in strings would be different parts of a string. The parts over the lower frets would naturally get more of these since they contact the frets more than the upper parts. Are you saying that due to the dents the string needs to be fretted with more pressure, or that the dents change the vibrating mass of the string? In either case, the change would seem to be pretty tiny.

How exactly would you go about checking intonation, BTW?

I'll try to explain. First, it has nothing to do with the mass, unless you've REALLY worn the string at the fret. Second, it has nothing to do with the tension, either. As you correctly pointed out, this is the same throughout the length of the string. It has to do with the stiffness: the elasticity of the string becomes nonuniform over its length, because it gets slightly stretched in the places where it's fretted, due to the micro-working of the metal material that takes place as it is ever-so-slightly BENT around the position of the fret. The same is true of the zone where the pick contacts and deforms the string, which -- if you look at high-speed films -- bends the string right at the contact point by quite a bit. You don't see this change by just looking at the string, because it looks the same (you'd need a special microscope to detect any micro-working of metal). And please understand that these are not "dents" -- nothing has been indented, and the string width is invariant. They are the result of making repeated bends. As a consequence, the local mechanical properties (mainly, the stiffness) become altered in these small regions. Because the frequency of vibration is proportional to the (square root of the) stiffness, this changes, ever so slightly, the pitch of the note. How much pitch change depends on how much of the "worked" metal material is fretted at a given time. So you develop intonation problems as you go up and down the neck. You also find that the pitch gets "wonky" -- the string goes flat for a moment after it's hit, and then slowly comes up to the final pitch. So notes tend to sound a little flat for an instant. This settling time takes much longer with old strings than with new ones. It can be really annoying if you are playing fast notes, which all come out sounding flat.

Corrosion can also enhance the ageing process, but this is a separate issue not being considered here.

All strings age. Some age more slowly than others. But strings that are never fretted, like in an Autoharp or zither, can truly last for years. But mandolin and guitar strings?! Not so much!!

You can check the intonation with any good tuner. First tune the open string carefully. Then fret the string in various places and see what the tuner says. Write it down (it will not be perfect; usually, it will be a number of cents off). These difference values will slowly change over time as the string ages, getting farther off pitch! And it will get harder and harder for the tuner to "grab" a given note, because the pitch will wander more (longer settling). You can also hear it if you know what to listen for, but this takes good ear training.

[Polecat]

How exactly would you go about checking intonation, BTW?

I find ears a pretty good tool (there is some talk of the brain also being involved, but in my particular case, this is debatable;)). Play "cowboy chords" (Gmaj=0023, Dmaj=2002, Amaj=2240, Emaj=4620 etc.) and see how they sound - for some reason, chords with major 10ths in them sound most out of tune to me when something's wrong, and I believe this is also generally the case. Failing that, you could use an electronic tuner - tune the instrument as per normal, then try fretting notes and check them against the tuner. Intonation is never perfect, even with new strings, as a good quality tuner will demonstrate, so it would be necessary to know what the "normal deviation" is. As I say, I prefer ears.

[Paul Busman]

Thanks for the excellent and informative responses. This makes more sense now.

[dhergert]

It's your right to not believe, and I do appreciate your research and explanations.

I was mostly talking about the strings not being dead, but these strings are also still doing well related to intonation so I'll respectfully stand by my statement there.

I guess I'd interject that there are lots of other mandolin variables, equal or more important than string winding indentations, that contribute to good or bad intonation. But that's probably fuel for another discussion.

For me the proof is what it sounds like.

:mandosmiley:

-- Don


No, sorry, but I do not believe that D'Addario EFT's last 4 years with regular playing. Six months seems more like it. And cleaning them obsessively is not the issue. The problem is that the metal fatigues and wears differentially along the string length, leading to intonation problems when fretted. Of course, some folks seem to be oblivious to this, I guess.

[Shelagh Moore]

For me the proof is what it sounds like.

+1

[Paul Busman]

Hey, here's a money saving idea... when the strings start to sound "off", take them off the mandolin and put them back on with the tailpiece end at the head. That way you'd have fresh, unfretted string up top. :whistling:

[Mandoplumb]

Many years ago before computers were in every house I run into a man that made banjos. He said that Gibson banjo fingerboards were wrong because they were figured out before computers so they couldn't be as accurate ( that statement in itself is wrong).he had worked the scale out to some ridiculous tolerance, some like 0.00001 or something. I asked how wide was a pencil mark, you could vary more than that from one side of the mark to the other. Some of the statements in this thread fall into the same category IMHO. There comes a point when the d### strings won't tune usually first detected because they won't twin but with a well made string it is several months in my experience. If it'll tune I'll play them, I know some people's body chemistry kills strings but I don't have that problem I scrap them when the intonation goes.

[lenf12]

There comes a point when the d### strings won't tune usually first detected because they won't twin but with a well made string it is several months in my experience. If it'll tune I'll play them, I know some people's body chemistry kills strings but I don't have that problem I scrap them when the intonation goes.

That's my attitude as well. At a certain point in our "relationship" with a particular mandolin, you go through a period of trying to convince yourself that it still sounds ok 4 or 6 months after the last string change, That's the signal that it is time to change strings again. If you're questioning it, it's time...

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[sblock]

It's your right to not believe, and I do appreciate your research and explanations.

I was mostly talking about the strings not being dead, but these strings are also still doing well related to intonation so I'll respectfully stand by my statement there.

I guess I'd interject that there are lots of other mandolin variables, equal or more important than string winding indentations, that contribute to good or bad intonation. But that's probably fuel for another discussion.

For me the proof is what it sounds like.

:mandosmiley:

-- Don

I think that I'm in substantial agreement with you: if YOU happen to think your mandolin strings are still OK after more than 4 years of regular playing, and are well satisfied with both their tone and intonation, then you have no reason to change them. From your perspective, that would be a complete waste of time and money, in fact.

My only point would be that not everyone hears the same things, and not everyone is equally sensitive to the sound of old, dead strings with poor intonation -- which is, I think we all agree, exactly what happens when strings age excessively. We may be quibbling about how long it takes, but not about the end result, I think!

I have a strong suspicion that you happen to be someone who is much more tolerant of intonation and tuning irregularities than some of the rest of us. Because most of us don't think mandolin strings -- even flat-wounds or flat-tops -- last over 4 years with regular playing. That's a plain fact. And there is nothing "wrong" with that. But I can hear my strings starting to going off after several months, and it's easy for me to tell. Or with hard playing, after several weeks. And sometimes, just one bluegrass festival will do it! :)

Anyway, consider yourself lucky: because the sound of your years-old strings doesn't bother you, you save money on purchasing strings. But you must have a hell of a time tuning in a jam with those old things.