Left Hand Technique / Muting the E-String

[Trym]

Hello all,

After simply reading through the threads for a while I've chosen to join this forum because I have a rather specific question for which I could find no answer.

I should state that I've been learning the mandolin by myself for about two years now, and while I didn't come across any bigger hurdles until now, I suspect a basic misunderstanding of left hand technique might cause my problem.

The problem in question is that I sometimes mute the lower E-String while fretting notes on the A-String. This especially happens when fretting with the ring finger or the pinky. As I've realized that my palm touches the string from below I've tried adjusting my hand position, which however lead to my thumb taking a very guitar-like position close to the back of the neck. While not immediately obstructive, I feel as if it should be possible to avoid that.

That's why I wanted to know whether anyone of you overcame a similar problem, and how one should tackle such. I'd find it especially interesting if there were fiddle tunes or etudes that feature crosspicking the A- and the E-String, as tackling by application helped with every other problem I've had yet.

Thanks in advance. :mandosmiley:

[Explorer]

After simply reading through the threads for a while I've chosen to join this forum because I have a rather specific question for which I could find no answer.

I suspect a basic misunderstanding of left hand technique might cause my problem.

The problem in question is that I sometimes mute the lower E-String while fretting notes on the A-String. This especially happens when fretting with the ring finger or the pinky. As I've realized that my palm touches the string from below I've tried adjusting my hand position, which however leads to my thumb taking a very guitar-like position close to the back of the neck.

While not immediately obstructive, I feel as if it should be possible to avoid that.

Any chord which requires a barre across two or more courses will also cause a shift of the thumb to the center of the back of the neck.

It might be possible to avoid that, but where did you get the idea that one *should* avoid that at all costs?

[michaelcj]

If you check out some of Tim O'Brien's playing and teaching you'll see that he "advocates" the thumb at the "back" of the neck position.

[Mark Gunter]

There is no one "right" way to play, including left hand position/fingering. The reasons I could give for this are varied, including 1) physiology, e.g. there are great differences in the size and other details of the hands and fingers of individuals, 2) personality and musicality, e.g., any player (and particularly self-taught ones) may choose for whatever reason to stray from the "norm" and produce unique musical qualities in so doing, etc. etc.

In general, most teachers and players in the Bluegrass, Folk, Country, Irish Trad and some other styles will prefer a more "fiddle/violin-like" style of the left hand, where the thumb does not belong behind the neck. But as has been pointed out already not all would agree. I'm no expert, only a lowly beginner myself, but I would think a relaxed style that allows for some shifting about as needed would be best. If your hand is small, or for some other reason you find that you must shift your hand to prevent deadening a string, then you'll learn to adjust well in order to play as you wish.

While the challenges that most of us face are not equal to those of Django Reinhardt, we all will find our own personal challenges in both right and left hand technique. Your challenges are as important to you as Django's were to him. By all means seek assistance, but in the end, you'll have to work out ways to play the mandolin. Remember to play the mandolin, and don't let the mandolin play you. All is fair in love and music.

[Trym]

Any chord which requires a barre across two or more courses will also cause a shift of the thumb to the center of the back of the neck.

It might be possible to avoid that, but where did you get the idea that one *should* avoid that at all costs?
I should've clarified that this happens while playing single notes, not while fingering chords. I assumed it would be better to reduce unnecessary hand movement as far as possible, especially since for certain melodies the change between hand positions does slow me down.


e.g., any player (and particularly self-taught ones) may choose for whatever reason to stray from the "norm" and produce unique musical qualities in so doing, etc. etc.
I should have been more clear about that, but the reason I wanted some input on this issue are the aforementioned "difficulties" it causes. While it is not majorly obstructive right now, and a forum certainly doesn't allow a fine analysis of technique, I still hoped someone might have some tips on how to improve in terms of hand positioning.

[Tom Wright]

You may have a mechanical issue with the string spacing at the nut. If the outer E is too close to the edge of the neck it will be hard to avoid damping it. I find I need at least 1/16" and prefer about 3/32" between the E string and the edge of fingerboard.

There are many threads on setting up action at the nut, and how to remove or move it. If the G pair is well inboard you could simply loosen the nut and move it slightly to improve E clearance.

[Ky Slim]

The problem in question is that I sometimes mute the lower E-String while fretting notes on the A-String. This especially happens when fretting with the ring finger or the pinky. Sounds like you have pinpointed the thing that needs work. Do you also mute the A string when playing the D string 7th with your pinky? Don't be afraid to make up your own excercises and go real slow until you can clean it up. As for fiddle tunes: maybe try Fire on the Mountain or Squirrel Hunters. Tunes in A or E where you can play the unison e-notes with your pinky or ring finger. Good Luck!


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[JeffD]

Without seeing your technique it is hard to visualize the problem, and all that may be contributing. How are you holding the instrument? For example, what ever you do the left hand should not carry any of the weight of the instrument. Do you play sitting or standing, with strap or without. Instrument at an angle.

I think at the absolute beginning it is important to "comply" with the generally accepted conventional wisdom as to hold and fretting and finger position etc., and work hard to make that work. But after a few years you have the direct experience that certain things are not working.

The hard part for me is figuring out which things are not working because my technique has departed from convention for whatever reason, and which things are not working because of specific individual physical reasons I cannot do it conventionally.

I know from my experience, whenever I have hit a plateau, where I just cannot seem to make any progress, I go back to the fundamentals of how to hold the instrument, how to hold the pick, how to fret the note, and all that, and clear up some of the unconventionalities I have accumulated. Almost immediately I start making progress again. Sometimes it has been dramatic.

I think it's because the advantages of certain conventions are not apparent until other bigger problems are solved.

Like you I am largely self taught and have had to bump into most of the sub-optimal habits on my own.

There are many videos with which to check your technique. My favorites are by Mike Marshall and by Peter Martin.

There are many great method books out there. I don't have enough experience to know which exercises from which method books would give you the specific kind of practice and eye opening experience you need. That is where a great teacher would be very very helpful. Like a doctor, prescribing the right etude to move you along most optimally.

[Beanzy]

I get the same issue on my narrow necked instruments. I worked through a lot of the issues of having large fingertips muting the adjacent string and pronounced creases when my fingers are curled to fret doing the same to the lowest e. But no matter how I tried to work around it, i was often muting the lowest e with the joint nearest the palm needed a wide necked mandolin with extra space on that side of the fretboard. It's no longer a problem with the right tool for the fit, but I still play them all, I just choose the instrument that is most appropriate for the tunes.

[JeffD]

Another thought I just had - Trym did you play guitar before you took up the mandolin? Because I wonder if being used to the string spacing of a guitar makes the mandolin just a little bit more non-intuitive to negotiate.

[Trym]

Sounds like you have pinpointed the thing that needs work. Do you also mute the A string when playing the D string 7th with your pinky? No, its exclusive to the E string, as I mute from below with a part of my palm close to my index finger.
Don't be afraid to make up your own excercises and go real slow until you can clean it up. As for fiddle tunes: maybe try Fire on the Mountain or Squirrel Hunters. Tunes in A or E where you can play the unison e-notes with your pinky or ring finger. Good Luck! I just realised the problem worsens while I play in A or E. I'll take that as a hint I shouldn't have neglected them totally. Also, the tunes you mentioned seem to address the problem quite well, so thanks a lot.


Another thought I just had - Trym did you play guitar before you took up the mandolin? Because I wonder if being used to the string spacing of a guitar makes the mandolin just a little bit more non-intuitive to negotiate. No, the mandolin was my first string instrument. I did however pick up a guitar now and then since.

[Bertram Henze]

A photo of your way of fretting the A course would be very helpful. I suspect a hand attitude issue that can be solved easily.

Try the following: index finger on E 2nd fret and ring finger on A 5th fret at the same time. Should be easy to do, and your palm should not even come near the E course. Now lift your index but leave everything else as it is - voila! I'll try to post a photo of this experiment later today.

[John Kelly]

I'd be inclined to go with what Tom says above as a possible source of your problem. If the outer (lower) E string is close to the edge of your fingerboard it is very easy to mute it with your fretting hand.

[Bertram Henze]

I'll try to post a photo of this experiment later today.

Just remembered that I can skip that, since it is already visible in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbjV-PlZj-0) between 1:33 and 2:10.

[Phil Goodson]

If no one has mentioned it, I would encourage you to be sure that you're approaching fingering more as a fiddle player would, rather than how you expect a guitar player to finger the notes.

Hold the mandolin tail against your chest or under your chin for a moment and fret a few notes and notice how your fingers are generally parallel with the strings (rather than across the strings) and that the fingertip is coming straight down on the string from above.

Then move the mandolin into correct playing position but still make your finger stay nearly parallel to the strings as before while you play the notes.
This can make a huge difference in how the fingers function over the strings and frets. This is especially true for former guitar players since their prior technique will be different.