why does my A string sound flat?

[mandolin breeze]

I own and have owned a decent number of very good, mid-price mandos over the yrs. and have noticed something and it's got me wondering. When I precisely tune via a tuner and then check the A with harmonics (D7 & A12) the A string sounds flat (notice it most on the A, but possibly the others too) If I want to be in harmonic tune with the D by increasing pitch slightly on the A, the tuner now of course reads A is sharp.

On certain tunes especially, if I don't tune harmonically you can really hear that the A sounds flat even though the tuner says no. I'm not talking tons here, just a noticeable small amount of wobble when checking the harmonics.

I find this to one degree or another on all of my mandos, they are all quality instruments as I mentioned, and I've had them in for tune ups from a great luthier, so I'm confident that they are setup as good as possible . . . so, I'm curious, what's going on?

[Mandoplumb]

A mandolin is so particular it could be any number of things causing that. It doesn't take much off to be way off. I had an Aria a few years ago that I had to make a saddle for the bridge that moved the D string forward more than a comp. Bridge normally does to make it tune right. A compensated bridge is really a compromise and sometimes it just doesn't work. This is where the fiddle has the advantage.

[jshane]

I am watching this thread with a lot of interest. I also have had similar - although not exactly the same-- issue with the a-string. And, when my strings age, ti is always the a-string that first looses the ability to intonate properly.

[Bertram Henze]

This is a well-known phenomenon to me. I always tune the D exact, and then slightly spread the others around it, ie. A 1 tick sharp, E 2 ticks sharp, G 1 tick flat. Then the fifths sound like a fiddler would do them technologically unaided, and most of the octave harmonics are correct, such as G2-A0, D2-E0, and especially G0-E3. I write that off to the old conflict of true vs equal temperament.

[Charlieshafer]

Welcome to the limitation of frets on a short scale instrument. Violinists, who have the same GDAE tuning, tune in fifths using the A as a base, and then working across, NOT using a tuner, but using their ears. What you find is that tuning in fifths the proper way gives you very slightly different pitches than using a tuner on each string. With frets, that ever-so-slight intonation becomes an issue somewhere, usually on the A string, for some reason. So, I do what the fiddlers do and either tune in fifths using my ear (and this will make some notes on the G a little wonky) or if I'm lazy and using a tuner, I tune each string to the fifth fret, which averages out the inconsistencies, as you're usually hovering around that fret anyway. Open strings will be ever so slightly off, but you never play that many open strings anyway.

[bbcee]

"This is a well-known phenomenon to me. I always tune the D exact, and then slightly spread the others around it, ie. A 1 tick sharp, E 2 ticks sharp, G 1 tick flat. Then the fifths sound like a fiddler would do them technologically unaided, and most of the octave harmonics are correct, such as G2-A0, D2-E0, and especially G0-E3. I write that off to the old conflict of true vs equal temperament. "

Ha. That would explain why the G always sounds better to me a touch flat. Very interesting.

[Tobin]

I'll chime in as another who hears the A as sounding sour and flat when going strictly by an electronic tuner. Like others, I tend to take the same approach I do on my fiddles. I will tune all the strings to the tuner first, but then use my ear to sweeten the tuning a bit. Going to perfect fifths by ear will present other problems for fretted note relationships at the 7th fret, so I don't take it quite that far. A compromise has to be made somewhere; such is the nature of a fretted instrument that doesn't use fan frets.

[greg_tsam]

440 A sounds sour to me. A well respected fiddler, who I played with for years, would occasionally play my mando. I'd check the tuning afterwards and it was always in tune except for the A which was a always 2 cents sharp.They tuned by ear and after 2 years I asked why. Their reply is they preferred a sweeter A.

I'd always used a tuner and never thought about that but it does sound better.

[ajm2qc03]

My primary instrument was guitar, before i got a mad case of the MAS. Something interesting in comparison, the B string on ALL guitars that I play ALWAYS gives me the most trouble. And just when i think I'm being hyperbolic, one of my buddies will be tuning their own guitars and then say "that damned B string!", so I know it's not just me!!!
The interesting comparison is that the B and A string are situated in similar positions, the second highest string with all other strings above and the trusty E below. I'm not sure if this is really picking up on anything or just a coincidence, interesting to me none the less. I taught myself by ear and the teacher of the lessons I did take further encouraged me to continue learning by ear, so I can hear the dissonance. I just don't have the knowledge in theory and acoustics/harmonics to know what in the world is going on!
Great thread-definitely had one of those moments like "That happens to YOU TOOOOO?!"

[Carl Robin]

Thanks everyone for discussing this topic ! I have read about it in the past, in other discussions, and did not ever perceive that as a relevant issue. It seemed theoretical, academic. In the last year or so, though, I have been noticing that something subtle was a little off. I wondered if it was the fault of my instrument. Now I realize that making the A string "sweeter" or just slightly sharp solves it. Hooray ! An easy answer.

[UsuallyPickin]

I set my bridges by matching the open , twelfth fret and harmonic to my best tuner. I do this using the outer E and G strings leaving the middle six loose. That brings my instruments close enough to not be a bother with equal temperament. If I had perfect pitch that probably would not be the case. But I don't and I figure most of any audience won't either. So that's how I roll. R/

[Willie Poole]

Every mandolin that I have played has this problem, I do like Tobin said, I tune them open to a tuner and then adjust the 5th fret note on the A strings which is a D to the open D string, I have never seen a mandolin that intonated correctly at every fret on the A strings, I know some people have said theirs is spot on every where they check it but I wonder how good their ear actually is...The G, D and E strings always seem to be perfect but that dreaded A string will drive you crazy....

Willie

[Drew Egerton]

Agreed. A on the mandolin, B on the guitar. Impossible. :crying:

[pheffernan]

Agreed. A on the mandolin, B on the guitar. Impossible. :crying:

Is it an issue related to the biggest unwound string? If so, are there fewer issues with flatwound (like Thomastik-Infeld) or flattop (such as D'Addario EFT74) strings that have a wound A string?

[Bertram Henze]

Is it an issue related to the biggest unwound string? If so, are there fewer issues with flatwound (like Thomastik-Infeld) or flattop (such as D'Addario EFT74) strings that have a wound A string?

My contribution is based on OM experience. My A strings are wound.

[James Rankine]

Is it an issue related to the biggest unwound string? If so, are there fewer issues with flatwound (like Thomastik-Infeld) or flattop (such as D'Addario EFT74) strings that have a wound A string?

One of the luthier's on this site (Sunburst I think) posted a very elegant answer to why the A string on the mandolin and the B string on the guitar (or G if unwound like an electric) suffer the most with tuning issues when I asked the same question a while ago. It is to do with it being the thickest string, not just unwound but thicker than the core of the wound strings as well. We tend to thick of the wound strings as being thick but in actual fact the core is thinner than the thickest unwound string. I can't quite remember the physics around the explanation.

[Tobin]

It's a common complaint for the 3rd string on a banjo too. It's right at the point where you could go with a large unwound string or a small wound string. Most sets are unwound, for better volume or whatever. But it will drive you crazy trying to get it to play in tune.

But the thing is, that's sort of a different issue. That's more for the fretted notes. This issue with the A strings on a mandolin is more about just the open tuning. Even though the A may be "perfect" according to a tuner, it will often sound sour when checked by ear to a perfect fifth interval of D-A or A-E. This is not about the string being wound or unwound, it's about the limitations and compromises of 12-tone equal temperament, along with the limitations of frets. We could tune a mandolin to perfect fifths like a fiddle, but it would sound terrible when any fretted notes are played, since we can't sweeten notes on the fly like a fiddle player can do. So we have to sweeten it with the open tuning and hope that we can find a good compromise on the fretted notes where no combination is too sour.

Everybody will hear it a little differently, and adjust the compromise to suit their playing style or aural preference.

[pops1]

No matter how hard I try my A strings end up a little sharp. Final tuning is done by ear until they sound the same and warmer. If they are off (E too) then it is bright, not warm.

[Polecat]

In the days before electronic tuners, I noticed this phenomenon too - if I tuned the mandolin to perfect fifths using the first and second harmonics on adjacent strings (D7/A12 and so on), then played a G major "Cowboy chord" (0023), the B on the A string always sounded unacceptably sharp (I hope that is comprehensible!). I went over to tuning entirely by ear, playing the adjacent strings until they sounded "right", then checking by playing the G chord (0023), the A power chord (2200) and D (2002). For some reason, I've found that the (or at least my) ear is especially sensitive to intonation issues on major 12th intervals (open G against B on the A string and open D against F# on the E string), and obviously the A power chord lets one check the octaves. I still tune that way, except in live situations when I don't want to test the audience's patience, a digital tuner is then a useful aid. I think it is important to use one's ears as much as possible rather than relying on electronic aids. If a digital device tells you that you are in tune but your ears tell you otherwise, trust your ears - you are playing for them, not the device.

[Charlieshafer]

If we want to get all technical, and why not, I first started getting into the temperament issue (equal vs. well) when I was talking to a button box builder/tuner (Peter Hyde from Australia) years back who said he started experimenting with Kellner tuning, which was an attempt to replicate Bach's well temperament, vs. equal temperament. The issue is near and dear to harpsichord players, as equal tuning on them sound pretty lame. Bach worked on well temperament to make thing sound more natural. Peter stated that when he tuned the boxes to Kellner tuning, they just sang when playing with fiddles. After listening to an equal tempered box play with a fiddle, then a Kellner tuned one, the difference was really amazing. The tones just matched beautifully. That's the problem with any fixed-interval system, keyboards or frets. The difference between the tones is never exactly 100 cents, as in equal temperament, but varies up and down by a few cents. Here are two articles which might clarify things, or might be so dense that you give up reading, but either way, the phenomenon has been debated for centuries.

Article 1, (http://www.hpschd.nu/index.html?nav/nav-4.html&t/welcome.html&http://www.hpschd.nu/tech/tmp/kellner.html) the easiest to read.

Article 2, (http://www.eunomios.org/contrib/francis1/francis1.html) which gets really technical

It's a great topic if study, until you realize that there's not much you can do other than to tune by ear and be done with it...

[Ivan Kelsall]

This problem is likely to happen with most fretted instruments. Frets are NOT accurately placed,they are a very close compromise to the exact positions that they should be. Trying to tune to a very accurate source such as an electronic tuner,on an inaccurately fretted instrument, (this is all 'relative' of course) will never get you there. That's something i learned early on in my banjo playing (i used & still use a tuning fork for that), I'd tune the 3rd G string & then,fretting the G string,tune the B string,then the 1st D string & then the 4th D string, & lastly the 5th string to the 1st string fretted at the 5th fret. After doing that,i'd play 'say' a G chord at the 5th fret & listen to the individual notes. If any of the notes sounded a tad sharp or flat,i'd adjust the tuning.
It was all compromise. Geoff Stelling even went so far as to fit a ''compensated'' nut to his banjos in an effort to overcome this problem,but such a small comensation wasn't enough.

On mandolin,i tune each course to a tuner,then check them string to string across the fingerboard. The G to D & D to A work ok,but the E strings are always a tiny bit flat,so i tune 'em up to the A string at the 7th fret & it's fine,
Ivan;)

[mcbrinitzer]

Thanks all. I was so happy to find this thread. Thiught I was going crazy!

[Folkmusician.com]

There comes that time when your sense of pitch develops to the point where you can hear the issues with fretted instruments. From then on, it will never be the same, and every fretted instrument will sound slightly out of tune no matter what you do.

Fresh strings, properly set intonation and sweetened tunings all help, but you partly just have to ignore it. :)

[lflngpicker]

There comes that time when your sense of pitch develops to the point where you can hear the issues with fretted instruments. From then on, it will never be the same, and every fretted instrument will sound slightly out of tune no matter what you do.

Fresh strings, properly set intonation and sweetened tunings all help, but you partly just have to ignore it. :)

Robert! I agree! All of the above. The developed ear, as music theory studies can ruin songwriting in college, will make it frustrating to notice pitch issues. The A strings, from a purely anecdotal perspective, tend to be most problematic. Thanks!

[Bertram Henze]

I was so happy to find this thread. Thiught I was going crazy!

Most of it is maths. Not far from craziness for some, but you can't escape nature.

[mcbrinitzer]

I have played guitar for decades. As I think about it, I probably sweeten the tuning a bit without even thinking about it, or my ears have grown to accept the slight dissonance. Is it more exaggerated on a shorter scale instrument?

[Tom Wright]

Apparently the complaint here is mainly about tempered tuning, although there is also a tendency for people to prefer a higher A, like 442. Mixed in with these issues may be that the A shows a large pitch drift after plucking. so you have to compromise between attack and continuing note. If you tune for the attack, the A sounds low as it rings.

If you look for in-tune octaves and chords, the fifths will not bother you when actually playing. Given that ensuring all the A's agree is more important than pleasing fifths, tempered tuning is essential for sweet chords. I always go to the comparison between an open string and the 5th-fret octave above, but also the 2nd-fret A on the G and open A above, as well as the C's and E's.

It is more appropriate for the fiddlers to play in tune with the tempered instruments than the other way, because they can adjust and you can't. You're playing chords, too.

Tune for the chords and octaves and the fifths will be fine---trust the tuner for the fifths and your ear for the chords and octaves.

[mandolin breeze]

Absolutely fascinating replies, there's more to this picture than first meets the eye that's for sure. I guess even if we managed to get our mando in "perfect" tune, it wouldn't stay there long anyway . . . it's a mandolin! For the tunes that I play that have some good bends in them, forget it, it's out of tune guaranteed. Gotta love it!

I noticed that when I switched from guitar to the mando as my regular instrument, my "ear" noticeably improved with all that extra tuning . . . so it's not all bad I guess. ;)