What sounds like a Loar?

[JKA]

What modern mandolin sounds like a Loar? Assuming I had a healthy budget of around $20k (or less) and wanted something that sounded as close as possible to a Loar, what should I be looking at?

Keith

[almeriastrings]

Your first problem is that not all Loars sound the same....

[JKA]

Your first problem is that not all Loars sound the same....

I guessed that as soon as I hit the post button...! Ok, what about most typically Loar sounding...if that's doable?

[mrmando]

A Wiens? A Minarovic? A Gibson Master Model?

[Lord of the Badgers]

Quite - which Loar are we talking about? Where did you hear it? Youtube? Played by that Thile chap (or other known example player)?

Or did you get to play one in a familiar room where you play your normal mandolin? Where you can really hear how it sounds with your own technique?

Not being awkward, I just think you need to try as many real world mandolins as possible...

[Demetrius]

Yes all Loars sound different, but! The part of them that we all chase after is still the same. There is a certain quality in a Loar that no matter which one I've played, It has it!
Some are louder, some have more bass, some have more highs, some even have a lot
more sustain. One the other hand they all have that core sound a lot of builders and a lot
of players are chasing after. So when someone asks what mandolin sounds like a Loar?
I don't think it's fair responding with well "which one"? We all know "which one" because
it's every one. They've all got that Loar sound.
Just like with a seasoned musical band! They have a bunch of different songs, but when
when it comes down to it most have an over all sound that make them unique.
For example. If I posted an ad asking, what band sounds like Nickel Creek..
Would any one respond with which one? No... People would start listing of
Bands, if any- who have a resemblance to that core sound of Nickel Creek.

Builders are influenced by Loars, and many are chasing that core sound.
So asking which builder is getting close to that seems like a really good
question to, because there is enough of us who want to know the answer to
that too...

[BrianWilliam]

If you had that kind of budget, why wouldn't you buy a plane ticket to "Nash-vile" to try out a loar and some modern copies?

[fscotte]

Red Diamonds.

[Glassweb]

when we talk about the "Loar tone" we're really talking about the Gibson tone as well. it's not like a Gilchrist F4 (great as they are) sounds much like a Gibson F4. what Gibson achieved before, during and after the Loar era will never be equalled.

but back to the question at hand... i'd have to say the most Loar-like mandolins i've played have been some Derrington era Master Models and especially the Distressed Master Models... there's my 2 cents...

[Demetrius]

I agree, I had a prototype Gibson DMM and it had a lot of that sound going on.
Not sure why I sold it... Stupid

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

Hmm-I would say some Loars sound like a Loar!!!

But for real, I've played Red Spruce topped Kimble's, Gil's, Duff's, Randy Wood's, Gibson MM's that I've felt were "Loar like" which, to me, is a traditional, narrow sound with lots of mids, smooth highs and not too much bass. And I tend to feel those are mandolins that you can really hit hard without breaking up. They don't tend to be very loud and tend to be quite dry without a ton of overtones swirling around. They have a strong core tone. I've always felt small frets, a flat board and a narrow neck contribute to that sound as well. This is all just my opinion of course.

[Willie Poole]

All Loars don`t sound alike is true but one thing is that when I hear a mandolin being played I can tell if it is a Loar about 95% of the time...The other 5% means they need a set up...

My vote goes for a Randy Wood F- model...

[red7flag]

The three modern instruments that I have played (I owned a Stanley and RSDMM) that came closest to the Loar sound was one of three Red Diamonds that were at his IBMA table, two Stanleys F5, one my own and the best, one in white at his SPGBMA table (what got me to get Chris to make mine, what a beast) and one RSDMM that I owned and sold (as good as that instrument was, it was not right for me, neck was a bit too narrow).

[JKA]

Yes all Loars sound different, but! The part of them that we all chase after is still the same. There is a certain quality in a Loar that no matter which one I've played, It has it!
Some are louder, some have more bass, some have more highs, some even have a lot
more sustain. One the other hand they all have that core sound a lot of builders and a lot
of players are chasing after. So when someone asks what mandolin sounds like a Loar?
I don't think it's fair responding with well "which one"? We all know "which one" because
it's every one. They've all got that Loar sound.
Just like with a seasoned musical band! They have a bunch of different songs, but when
when it comes down to it most have an over all sound that make them unique.
For example. If I posted an ad asking, what band sounds like Nickel Creek..
Would any one respond with which one? No... People would start listing of
Bands, if any- who have a resemblance to that core sound of Nickel Creek.

Builders are influenced by Loars, and many are chasing that core sound.
So asking which builder is getting close to that seems like a really good
question to, because there is enough of us who want to know the answer to
that too...

Thanks for that. That's exactly what I wanted to ask but you've put it much more eloquently than I could have done.

It's an academic question really as I have two great mandolins (NF5s and Flatty Festival) which I intend keeping as I love the sound of both. Was just wondering...

[goose 2]

My vote is also for the Derrington era Master Modes. I have owned a few and have owned one of the DMM prototypes for 12 years now. Never parting with it. Next choice would be a Red Diamond. Those vintage and replica series ones that I have played are very special.

[9lbShellhamer]

Red Diamond, Gibson MM... although I haven't played a Loar personally so what do I know? Not much. :) I'm personally more concerned with playing a mando who's tone I personally love, regardless of make/model and finding which "tool" fits my needs the best in the moment.

[JeffD]

What modern mandolin sounds like a Loar? Assuming I had a healthy budget of around $20k (or less) and wanted something that sounded as close as possible to a Loar, what should I be looking at?

I believe there are more than a few modern makers whose mandolins sound every bit as good as a Loar, but different, and perhaps in some cases better. But because of how we rigged the game, with the Loar sound being the center of the target, one can only get as close as possible.

Its just the same in the violin world, where that Strad sound is the defined center of the target. People wrack their brains to figure out how Antonio did it. The truth is that all he did was make a darn fine instrument; the musical culture coalesced around the Strad sound to make it iconic.

But this is a digression. There are good answers to the actual question posed.

[carleshicks]

I've only played about 6 Loars so I'm not an expert, but in my opinion the Derrington era Master Models ( I haven't played a Harvey era yet ) posses it as well as the one red diamond that I've played. Gil's, Dudenbostel's, duff's and quite a few other builders produce some absolutely amazing instruments, but they don't push air the same as a Loar.

[Ken Waltham]

Yes all Loars sound different, but! The part of them that we all chase after is still the same. There is a certain quality in a Loar that no matter which one I've played, It has it!
Some are louder, some have more bass, some have more highs, some even have a lot
more sustain. One the other hand they all have that core sound a lot of builders and a lot
of players are chasing after. So when someone asks what mandolin sounds like a Loar?
I don't think it's fair responding with well "which one"? We all know "which one" because
it's every one. They've all got that Loar sound.
Just like with a seasoned musical band! They have a bunch of different songs, but when
when it comes down to it most have an over all sound that make them unique.
For example. If I posted an ad asking, what band sounds like Nickel Creek..
Would any one respond with which one? No... People would start listing of
Bands, if any- who have a resemblance to that core sound of Nickel Creek.

Builders are influenced by Loars, and many are chasing that core sound.
So asking which builder is getting close to that seems like a really good
question to, because there is enough of us who want to know the answer to
that too...
This quote has the most merit I've seen in a long time. I have a long and constant exposure to Loars over the last 20 years, and, fact is, they do sound the same. At the VERY least, a lot more similar than different. My own personal experience in owning 12 Loars now, and an unsigned, is that they are most definitely family, in the same way that we are more similar to our siblings... as a rule.. than we are different. It does not matter if we are talking Virzi or not, they are still the same. Differences that appear are really like splitting hairs.
As an aside.. there are no bad ones. These discourses always make me smile. Trust me on that.. they are all good. I just bought one that had been universally panned as "quiet.. weak.. tight.", all the usual bad comments. One 10 minute visit at my luthier's, and I walked out with a totally different instrument, and now, 4 months later, it is as good as any I've had.
I've told this story before. but here goes again... Back years ago, I had a sidebound July 9 F5, and a Feb 18, 1924 F5 at the same time. The July 9 was just my total fave.. I felt I knew it's sound anywhere, I played and gigged with it all the time, we were joined at the hip, so to speak.
I went down to Lynn Dudenbostel's to stay for a few days, and we had sort of a Loar Fest there one evening. We did a blind test, where one guy played the different Loars, and we had our backs turned. Do you know.. none of us.. especially me.. could even tell their own instrument. So, which one sounds most like a Loar??
To my ear, none, but, that's just me. You can get SOME of it, perhaps from a MM, or other, but, only a marginal amount. Age is the factor that cannot be duplicated.

[barry]

Ken Waltham said:
"I went down to Lynn Dudenbostel's to stay for a few days, and we had sort of a Loar Fest there one evening. We did a blind test, where one guy played the different Loars, and we had our backs turned. Do you know.. none of us.. especially me.. could even tell their own instrument. So, which one sounds most like a Loar??
To my ear, none, but, that's just me. You can get SOME of it, perhaps from a MM, or other, but, only a marginal amount. Age is the factor that cannot be duplicated.[/QUOTE]"




I completely believe this. They all "sound" like Loars. The "sound" of various Loars has less individual variation than their "feel". If you were to play each instrument, yourself, blindfolded, you would be much more likely to identify each one by their response.

[Ken Waltham]

Ken Waltham said:
"I went down to Lynn Dudenbostel's to stay for a few days, and we had sort of a Loar Fest there one evening. We did a blind test, where one guy played the different Loars, and we had our backs turned. Do you know.. none of us.. especially me.. could even tell their own instrument. So, which one sounds most like a Loar??
To my ear, none, but, that's just me. You can get SOME of it, perhaps from a MM, or other, but, only a marginal amount. Age is the factor that cannot be duplicated."




I completely believe this. They all "sound" like Loars. The "sound" of various Loars has less individual variation than their "feel". If you were to play each instrument, yourself, blindfolded, you would be much more likely to identify each one by their response.[/QUOTE]

Agree completely. And.. if you had them all set up by a very competent luthier, like Steve Gilchrist.. even that factor would greatly diminish.

[John Adrihan]

Hmm-I would say some Loars sound like a Loar!!!

But for real, I've played Red Spruce topped Kimble's, Gil's, Duff's, Randy Wood's, Gibson MM's that I've felt were "Loar like" which, to me, is a traditional, narrow sound with lots of mids, smooth highs and not too much bass. And I tend to feel those are mandolins that you can really hit hard without breaking up. They don't tend to be very loud and tend to be quite dry without a ton of overtones swirling around. They have a strong core tone. I've always felt small frets, a flat board and a narrow neck contribute to that sound as well. This is all just my opinion of course.

Wait a minute, I thought that Loars were bassy? That's something that makes them stand out?

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Fortunately - to my ears - no.

[Wayne Shelton]

Don Macrostie who builds the Red Diamonds has worked at reproducing the sound of the Loar era instruments. He took 3 specific well-known mandolins and studied them in detail to try and obtain their specific sounds. Those 3 mandolins were the 1922 "Crusher" owned by David Grisman, the1924 Loar owned by John Reischman, and the 1925 Fern owned by Bobby Osborne. He then made 6 copies of each of those 3. Those 18 mandolins became the "replica series". I believe that those may be pretty close to the original intruments.

[JKA]

Just before this post comes it it's natural end, I'd like to thank everyone for their contribution. It's particularly great to hear from Loar owners and have found all the comments really useful
Cheers

[Billy Packard]

Just before this post comes it it's natural end, I'd like to thank everyone for their contribution. It's particularly great to hear from Loar owners and have found all the comments really useful
Cheers

Gryphon Strings has a Gilchrist #173 I played for a long nice spell last tuesday and it has a very Loar like sound.

[barry]

Wait a minute, I thought that Loars were bassy? That's something that makes them stand out?


No. Loars stand out in the mix due to the density of their midrange. The real magic to them is how well the bass and treble balance with the mids. It takes the same amount of effort to draw equal sound from the instrument across the strings, as well as up and down the neck.
And, as Ken Waltham stated, they sound old.

[Andrew B. Carlson]

I've played JR's Loar a couple times. New ones that were close were a Gilchrist, a Red Diamond and a Stanley. My memory is fuzzy on the Stanley, but the Red Diamond I played was excellent, although a little more open sounding than the Loar. But it really made me want to try a Loar replica Red Diamond.

[Willie Poole]

To my ears the Loars do not all sound the same, I played two that just didn`t have it, yes it could have been the way they were set up, could have been the strings (old and worn), different brand, could have been the different picks, one had a virzi and that didn`t sound like anything worth a huge amount of money....

[Jeff Mando]

To my ears the Loars do not all sound the same, I played two that just didn`t have it, ....... and that didn`t sound like anything worth a huge amount of money....

Kinda like the antique car business -- there is no such thing as an inexpensive Duesenberg......makes ya wonder, "are they all really THAT great?"

Tony Rice is one of my favorite guitar players and his old Martin is well known, but often in articles about his guitar, they start with, "well it's not the loudest Herringbone ever made..........." As if to say there are better ones out there, but it seems to have served him well! :grin:

[JAK]

If you listen to the CD "Tone POETS" (not Tone POEMS) you will get an idea of how one Loar sounds different in the hands of different world class players who play one mandolin, David Grisman's 1922 Loar. So, not only do all Loars sound different, one Loar sounds different, depending on who plays it.

[mandroid]

+1 with #2... I doubt even All of them sound Identical to Each Other By Now, (or back Then)

[JKA]

J, many thanks for that appraise...I think it's really cool that you get it. Appreciate it

Keith

[Jim Garber]

The biggest problem I found was not spending quite enough time playing one. It is hard to really get a sense of them with the owner hovering around you and their value makes me so nervous that I hand it back after maybe of minute or two of playing. My best experience which opened my eyes was playing one at Retrofret when the folks there just handed it to me and I sat on the couch playing it for about 30 minutes. I got to hear the subtleties of the tone and started hearing things I had not heard in my 40+ years of playing. OTOH I have played some of the abovementioned mandolins that have that flavor and I could be quite happy with those.

[Jim Hilburn]

Fergus played some Compton on his radio show this morning and I assume it was the Gil, but that was way in the Loar ballpark to my ear.

[Timbofood]

I initially thought this was going to be something entirely different from the direction it's taken. This type of discussion keeps me interested in the whole of mandolin properties!
The fact that "we" are pretty much in agreement about "no two are alike" is such an interesting statement. It really speaks to the innate properties of wooden construction (boats and so many other things fall under that flag for me) and the builder getting what they think they "want" out of a build.
I'm watching this one folks, maybe not with popcorn but sure as shootin' with a beverage!

[FLATROCK HILL]

The fact that "we" are pretty much in agreement about "no two are alike" is such an interesting statement. It really speaks to the innate properties of wooden construction (boats and so many other things fall under that flag for me) and the builder getting what they think they "want" out of a build.

This short clip from Carter Vintage:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h_CdTa-2-U illustrates pretty well what you say Timothy. Chris Thile's comparison and contrasting of two Gibson Loars (of the same date), and his commentary about how they differ from other Loars is fascinating. If I understand him correctly, these two particular examples are not particularly loud ("Blow your head off") or strong on the bottom end, yet they have an 'elegant' quality that he really seems to enjoy.

It's all mostly over my head. What I do take away from this assessment, is that while there may be some common thread to the 'Loar sound' there is quite a variation within the entire tapestry.

[Timbofood]

This short clip from Carter Vintage:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h_CdTa-2-U illustrates pretty well what you say Timothy. Chris Thile's comparison and contrasting of two Gibson Loars (of the same date), and his commentary about how they differ from other Loars is fascinating. If I understand him correctly, these two particular examples are not particularly loud ("Blow your head off") or strong on the bottom end, yet they have an 'elegant' quality that he really seems to enjoy.

It's all mostly over my head. What I do take away from this assessment, is that while there may be some common thread to the 'Loar sound' there is quite a variation within the entire tapestry.

Yep, with the abundance of well crafted, inspired builders today the offerings are myriad! Given a budget of the OP's statement anyone wh has read my comments about a certain builder knows who's getting my business and why. The fine tuning in what "Tonal Colour" any one specifically wishes can be addressed my many builders. "It's what they do" comes to mind for me. Probably more brilliance in how to get what one person wants out of an instrument today is, thanks to Lloyd Loar, Richard Schneider, D'Angelico, D'Aquisto, Monteleone, Gilchrist, Dudenbostel, Halsey, Macrostie, Weins, ad nauseum...
These literati of the school of mandolin lutherie are (all I've met, limited as I am) so incredibly generous with their time to find the right amalgam of design to player personality and technique it would be hard to not find the "sound that fits YOU" given some time and patience. Writing about it simply takes away from the search. As a very talented musician said to me once after we had beaten each other up over some trivial point, " Now, let's play some music!"

[bobrem]

Don Macrostie who builds the Red Diamonds has worked at reproducing the sound of the Loar era instruments. He took 3 specific well-known mandolins and studied them in detail to try and obtain their specific sounds. Those 3 mandolins were the 1922 "Crusher" owned by David Grisman, the1924 Loar owned by John Reischman, and the 1925 Fern owned by Bobby Osborne. He then made 6 copies of each of those 3. Those 18 mandolins became the "replica series". I believe that those may be pretty close to the original intruments.

I was once at John Reischman's place and did a blind tasting of his Loar, his Red Diamond and his Heiden. He played all three with my back turned and I was able to correctly guess each one correctly. His Red Diamond was as close to his 1924 Loar as anything I've heard. Some time later, I was at Dusty Strings in Seattle and saw a Red Diamond, #137, for sale. I played every F in the store and to my ears it was by far the best, so I bought it. Unknown to me at the time, the consignee was David Grisman. John's Red Diamond is currently owned by a friend of mine and I regularly get the chance to play it as well as mine. I am lucky to have two fine Red Diamonds that are "Loarish" at my disposal. Here's a sound sample of #137 in my ham-handed style (best with headphones). It sounds more Loarish when played by JR, of course.


https://youtu.be/_Znqugd04UE

[Andrew B. Carlson]

I was once at John Reischman's place and did a blind tasting of his Loar, his Red Diamond and his Heiden. He played all three with my back turned and I was able to correctly guess each one correctly. His Red Diamond was as close to his 1924 Loar as anything I've heard. Some time later, I was at Dusty Strings in Seattle and saw a Red Diamond, #137, for sale. I played every F in the store and to my ears it was by far the best, so I bought it. Unknown to me at the time, the consignee was David Grisman. John's Red Diamond is currently owned by a friend of mine and I regularly get the chance to play it as well as mine. I am lucky to have two fine Red Diamonds that are "Loarish" at my disposal. Here's a sound sample of #137 in my ham-handed style (best with headphones). It sounds more Loarish when played by JR, of course.


https://youtu.be/_Znqugd04UE

That's the same RD I was talking about. One of the best sounding mandolins I've played folks!(check it out. NFI. Just a really good mando! (http://www.myhresmusic.com/featured/Red-Diamond-Mandolin-Grisman-f-style-137-acoustic-edmonton/Red-Diamond-Mandolin-Grisman-f-style-137-acoustic-edmonton.html) )

[JKA]

I was once at John Reischman's place and did a blind tasting of his Loar, his Red Diamond and his Heiden. He played all three with my back turned and I was able to correctly guess each one correctly. His Red Diamond was as close to his 1924 Loar as anything I've heard. Some time later, I was at Dusty Strings in Seattle and saw a Red Diamond, #137, for sale. I played every F in the store and to my ears it was by far the best, so I bought it. Unknown to me at the time, the consignee was David Grisman. John's Red Diamond is currently owned by a friend of mine and I regularly get the chance to play it as well as mine. I am lucky to have two fine Red Diamonds that are "Loarish" at my disposal. Here's a sound sample of #137 in my ham-handed style (best with headphones). It sounds more Loarish when played by JR, of course.


https://youtu.be/_Znqugd04UE

Bob
Thank you for taking the time to post this. Beautifully filmed and played. Sure sounds exquisite to my ears. I've never come across Red Diamonds (being relatively new to the mandolin world) but I'll investigate further.
Keith

[BrianWilliam]

Not exactly "ham handed" Bob. You sound good!

I never noticed the scooped extension with frets before. Curious....

[bobrem]

Not exactly "ham handed" Bob. You sound good!

I never noticed the scooped extension with frets before. Curious....

I learned about scooping and replacing the frets from Herschel Sizemore. He thought it was interesting that the fretboard looks untouched when view from a distance, so I tried it. I had it done to RD #137 and also have it on another mandolin.

[Timbofood]

Sounds great!
One thing that constantly gets under my skin is the way so many people trim string ends! All the care and time taken to do a beautiful inlay pattern, exquisite finish and so forth then, ragged tails on string ends.
Just a pet peeve, it's not that hard to get them neat and tidy. But, I digress.

[Loudloar]

The biggest problem I found was not spending quite enough time playing one. It is hard to really get a sense of them with the owner hovering around you and their value makes me so nervous that I hand it back after maybe of minute or two of playing. My best experience which opened my eyes was playing one at Retrofret when the folks there just handed it to me and I sat on the couch playing it for about 30 minutes. I got to hear the subtleties of the tone and started hearing things I had not heard in my 40+ years of playing.

A huge AMEN on your comment, Jim Garber. In addition, playing it in a band setting can reveal an entirely different dimension, partly because you're inclined to play differently when competing with other instruments, and partly because it shows how the instrument can cut through the sound of a band. For instance, I've had compliments on how great my mandolin sounded when I'm playing backup and barely touching the strings. So obviously the tone is coming through in a very pleasing way.

Steve

[JKA]

I was once at John Reischman's place and did a blind tasting of his Loar, his Red Diamond and his Heiden. He played all three with my back turned and I was able to correctly guess each one correctly. His Red Diamond was as close to his 1924 Loar as anything I've heard. Some time later, I was at Dusty Strings in Seattle and saw a Red Diamond, #137, for sale. I played every F in the store and to my ears it was by far the best, so I bought it. Unknown to me at the time, the consignee was David Grisman. John's Red Diamond is currently owned by a friend of mine and I regularly get the chance to play it as well as mine. I am lucky to have two fine Red Diamonds that are "Loarish" at my disposal. Here's a sound sample of #137 in my ham-handed style (best with headphones). It sounds more Loarish when played by JR, of course.


https://youtu.be/_Znqugd04UE

Bob
I noticed this mandolin for sale on Reverb. Is it still for sale? If so could you PM me?
Keith

[fscotte]

Well I think if the OP wants a Loarish mando, he should be looking into Red Diamonds. Give Don a visit in Athens, Ohio, he lives on an old back country road and builds mandos in what looks like an old barn. Nicest fella in the world.

[JKA]

Well I think if the OP wants a Loarish mando, he should be looking into Red Diamonds. Give Don a visit in Athens, Ohio, he lives on an old back country road and builds mandos in what looks like an old barn. Nicest fella in the world.

Wish I could but as I live the other side of the pond it's unlikely to happen. Limited choice over here. I'm very lucky to own two stunning mandolins but it's still great fun exploring all the possible options. Come November I'll have a little cash to play with so we'll see what happens...

[Luna Pick]

I played a Stan Miller last week. Best mandolin I've ever played, next to John R.'s. Simply amazing in every respect, and very Loar-like.

[DataNick]

I played a Stan Miller last week. Best mandolin I've ever played, next to John R.'s. Simply amazing in every respect, and very Loar-like.

I've played a few...they were all exceptional mandolins. I don't know about the Loar thing because I've never played one, but Miller mandolins are the soup du jour among my NoCal mando buddies...YMMV

[banjoboy]

Not to brag, but....Michael Cleveland played my Hester and thought that it played, felt, and sounded like David McLaughlin's Loar. Gail has been fortunate enough to obtain Loar parts, take measurements of Loars, etc. I think she pretty much has it going on.

[bobrem]

I saw John Reischman perform last night. He played a new tune on his Loar called the Red Diamond Blues "about a mandolin I used to own." Sellers remorse, perhaps? His Red Diamond, one of the six original JR replica models, is now owned by a mutual friend. The tune will be out on a new JR and the Jaybirds album currently in progress.

[Ken Waltham]

Just a gentle reiteration... what did he sell?? The Loar?? No, because nothing really sounds like them.
sorry, that's just how it is, I sincerely believe it's the age, it changes the wood on a cellular level. Only time will tell with the others...

[Spruce]

What modern mandolin sounds like a Loar?

What modern mandolin projects like a Loar?
That's key to the whole deal....



...I sincerely believe it's the age, it changes the wood on a cellular level. Only time will tell with the others...

I'm with ya...
...I'd kill to hear some of the mandolins that have been built in the past 20 years or so 80 years from now...

Hell, a lot of them have had a good deal of banging on them already, and sound really good--and yes, Loar-like...
This one comes to mind:

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee22/e_stamp/13177457_10153766048578068_2627107437007766649_n_z ps0bwlsvyh.jpg (http://s231.photobucket.com/user/e_stamp/media/13177457_10153766048578068_2627107437007766649_n_z ps0bwlsvyh.jpg.html)

[J.Sloan]

Spruce.....is that Caleb's mandolin... The Sullivan F5?

[Ken Waltham]

Yeah, I am not suggesting that the Loars are magical or anything.. I believe builders today are more than capable of constructing a mandolin that is probably superior, ( but does not have that idiosyncratic charm,and the wonderful less than perfect appearance) but, they simply do not sound like Loars. They can sort of get some of it, but, not for a minute at this point do they "have it" like a 1923 F5.

[Spruce]

Spruce.....is that Caleb's mandolin... The Sullivan F5?

Yep...



(...and the wonderful less than perfect appearance)

:)



They can sort of get some of it, but, not for a minute at this point do they "have it" like a 1923 F5.

I think quite a few of the modern makers are actually trying to expand upon the Loar sound as opposed to replicating it. Steve G. comes to mind...
John M. another...
Both very knowledgable about Loars, and both (I think) trying to do things a little differently...more emphasis on the bass, for instance.

I played a Red Diamond at IBMA about 10 years ago that had "that" Loarish midrange thing happening in spades...very impressive.

[JKA]

Perhaps the answer is...no modern mandolin sounds like a Loar because Mr. Loar did not build them. Perhaps one day people will ask the question: what modern mandolin sounds like a Derrington? I'm sure the replies will be just as interesting, informative and stimulating as per the current thread

[Ken Waltham]

Perhaps the answer is...no modern mandolin sounds like a Loar because Mr. Loar did not build them. Perhaps one day people will ask the question: what modern mandolin sounds like a Derrington? I'm sure the replies will be just as interesting, informative and stimulating as per the current thread

Probably...
Just on another tack, it's always interesting to me how they got it so right, right out of the gate.
Another whole topic!

[JAK]

Some experts have stated that Mr. Loar DIDN'T BUILD THEM, he was the acoustical engineer, not hands on. Over a two year period (1922 - 1924) there may have been different builders building different Gibson mandolins signed by Lloyd Loar; you'd probably have to have been there in the Gibson factory to really know, unless there are records to bring that to light. But yes, time and legend makes those rare Gibson Mandolins the holy grail. John R. told me he sold his Red Diamond Replica to fund a recent CD he has out. I spent 9 hours listening to his Red Diamond while attending one of his mando workshops. To me that mando had more punch and presence than his Loar, but no, it didn't sound the same.

[JKA]

Probably...
Just on another tack, it's always interesting to me how they got it so right, right out of the gate.
Another whole topic!

That's an interesting observation and reminds me of Messers Fender, Carson, Fullerton and Tavares and their design classics that again, right from the off remain (for the most) in their original carnation...Adolph Sax another...anymore?

[Richard Mott]

That's an interesting observation and reminds me of Messers Fender, Carson, Fullerton and Tavares and their design classics that again, right from the off remain (for the most) in their original carnation...Adolph Sax another...anymore?

Les Paul? And the 1929 Martin OMs? Professor Porsche ...

[Rheatown]

I thought about Red Diamond, Heiden, Dude and Gil, but decided to go with this one. I even considered the Loars at Carter Vintage that Chris Thile compared as an investment, but I wanted an instrument I would not worry about playing every day.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?120277-Anybody-the-owner-of-this-Ellis-from-Fiddler-s-Green&highlight=Rheatown

I have an F-5G that sounds just as good, but it does not play as easily.

[JKA]

I thought about Red Diamond, Heiden, Dude and Gil, but decided to go with this one. I even considered the Loars at Carter Vintage that Chris Thile compared as an investment, but I wanted an instrument I would not worry about playing every day.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?120277-Anybody-the-owner-of-this-Ellis-from-Fiddler-s-Green&highlight=Rheatown

I have an F-5G that sounds just as good, but it does not play as easily.

Lovely mandolin. There's something about an Ellis F5 that makes the heart beat a little faster. I am almost convinced however, that the one for me (and future generations) would be a CD signed MM...I suspect these mandolins will become as prized as Loars one day.

[barry]

Lovely mandolin. There's something about an Ellis F5 that makes the heart beat a little faster. I am almost convinced however, that the one for me (and future generations) would be a CD signed MM...I suspect these mandolins will become as prized as Loars one day.


Not a chance. The future market will view them for what they are. They were the first attempt to, more accurately, resurrect the original Loar specs. They will be the mandolin equivalent of the Dan Smith Stratocasters.

[fscotte]

Monteleone removed the back from one loar because it was too stiff. Took off some wood and reattached it.

I guess that loar sounded crappy enough to have its back removed.

[Jeff Mando]

Les Paul? And the 1929 Martin OMs? Professor Porsche ...

Most of us would argue the ultimate Les Paul came several years after the original with the introduction of PAF humbuckers and the tunematic bridge and stop tailpiece -- rather the the original with the P-90's and the weird trapeze tailpiece with the strings going underneath it........

[mandroid]

Zen .. one hand Clapping..

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Monteleone removed the back from one loar because it was too stiff. Took off some wood and reattached it.

I guess that loar sounded crappy enough to have its back removed.

That would be Mike Marshall's mandolin. I doubt it was crappy, possibly too bright to sound modern. According to Tony Williamson, it sounded fine prio to that surgery and even before the deverzification. And Mike bought it after all, although he owned a fine Monteleone GA at that time. Anyhow, I played that mando several times, it sure is wonderful now.

[Ken Waltham]

That would be Mike Marshall's mandolin. I doubt it was crappy, possibly too bright to sound modern. According to Tony Williamson, it sounded fine prio to that surgery and even before the deverzification. And Mike bought it after all, although he owned a fine Monteleone GA at that time. Anyhow, I played that mando several times, it sure is wonderful now.

What you are looking at there is the equivalent of "hippy sanding" and I sincerely doubt that would happen today. Live and learn.

[carleshicks]

I am almost convinced however, that the one for me (and future generations) would be a CD signed MM...I suspect these mandolins will become as prized as Loars one day.

There are a few for sale right now, Gruhn has one
Here http://guitars.com/inventory/mf8488-2001-gibson-f-5-master-model

And Carters has an ultra rare 2002 Fern master model
Here http://www.cartervintage.com/mandopage/gibsonmandolins/gibsonmandolins.html

[almeriastrings]

Perhaps the answer is...no modern mandolin sounds like a Loar because Mr. Loar did not build them.

Mr. Loar did not build the Loars, either.....

They were factory instruments.

He did sign the labels.

[stevedenver]

Mr. Loar did not build the Loars, either.....

They were factory instruments.

He did sign the labels.

And of course, Les didnt build or design what we know as a les paul,even the '52.

[almeriastrings]

More interesting is what the level of personal inspection really was... we just don't know. Were there any rejects at all? Any he refused to sign? Or did he bulk sign labels without even seeing the individual instruments?

We may never know.

[BradKlein]

It's worth noting that Gibson's premiere mandolins didn't change the day Charlie Derrington stopped signing the labels. There was continuity and Derrington continued to be involved while Danny Roberts was signing. It's NOT the same as Lloyd Loar signing labels almost to the day he was fired from Gibson. I can't easily supply all the details. You'll need to go to (formerly Big) Joe Vest for that.


There are a few for sale right now, Gruhn has one
Here http://guitars.com/inventory/mf8488-2001-gibson-f-5-master-model

And Carters has an ultra rare 2002 Fern master model
Here http://www.cartervintage.com/mandopage/gibsonmandolins/gibsonmandolins.html

[Winfield]

Chris Hillman playing his Red Diamond. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw6d2p7Eyxk

[Andrew B. Carlson]

Here's JR playing his Red Diamond. Sounds pretty good to me.

GORd4ek_AvA

[f5joe]

JR could play anything and it would sound good. That RD sounds great ........ but not like a Loar to my ear. Not trying to be difficult, just my thought.

Thanks for the post Andrew.

[re simmers]

Visited Gruhns last week. I played 2 Loars. I also played a 2003 Derrington Master Model. $12,000. Extremely close in every way - tone, volume, response and playability. If I had the cash I would have it.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Visited Gruhns last week. I played 2 Loars. I also played a 2003 Derrington Master Model. $12,000. Extremely close in every way - tone, volume, response and playability. If I had the cash I would have it.

You played the 2008 Gilchrist also, by any chance?

[re simmers]

Yes I did. That Gil is exceptional too, but I liked the Derrington MM better.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Yes I did. That Gil is exceptional too, but I liked the Derrington MM better.

How would you describe the differences?

[re simmers]

The chop is bigger and louder. It had more volume on the A & E strings without sounding tinny.
Both played great. The workmanship in the Gil was more impressive - can't explain. Gilchrist builds a beautiful instrument.

[kymandolin29]

Red Diamonds.

the red diamond bobby Osborne model...they are crushers...I played several of them at Monroe camp once and the john reishman models Osborne all the way

[carleshicks]

Yes I did. That Gil is exceptional too, but I liked the Derrington MM better.

I think that statement would make Mr. Derrington very proud. This month marks ten years years since his passing. Hard to believe that much time has passed.

[AlanN]

I think that statement would make Mr. Derrington very proud. This month marks ten years years since his passing. Hard to believe that much time has passed.

CD is missed every day. I have a piece of hardware on my mandolin crafted by him, which is cherished.

[PVia]

Hi folks...here's a recording I made playing the Bach Gm Adagio on my Red Diamond Vintage F.

A lovely instrument with very Loar-like qualities...hope you enjoy and also hope it lends a reference point for those seeking a baseline as to what these instruments sound like.

https://soundcloud.com/paul-viapiano/5-24-16-rd-gm-adagio

[JKA]

Hi folks...here's a recording I made playing the Bach Gm Adagio on my Red Diamond Vintage F.

A lovely instrument with very Loar-like qualities...hope you enjoy and also hope it lends a reference point for those seeking a baseline as to what these instruments sound like.

https://soundcloud.com/paul-viapiano/5-24-16-rd-gm-adagio

Paul, beautifully played and the tone of your RD is up there with the best I've ever heard. You are obviously staggeringly talented ( acknowledging the hours of practice that's gone into this piece) and a true musician. I'd be happy to listen to a full CD of this. Thank you for the post...what a treat

[carleshicks]

Hi folks...here's a recording I made playing the Bach Gm Adagio on my Red Diamond Vintage F.

A lovely instrument with very Loar-like qualities...hope you enjoy and also hope it lends a reference point for those seeking a baseline as to what these instruments sound like.

https://soundcloud.com/paul-viapiano/5-24-16-rd-gm-adagio

Paul, that was absolutely phenomenal. That red diamond is a killer mando and your playing is exceptional. I would love to have an entire album of you playing Bach on mandolin and maybe a few mandolin guitar duets.

Thank you.

[BradKlein]

Very nice performance! Would you care to share your recording set up? Is that the natural ambiance of the room, or did you add analog or digital reverb to the finished recording?



Hi folks...here's a recording I made playing the Bach Gm Adagio on my Red Diamond Vintage F.

A lovely instrument with very Loar-like qualities...hope you enjoy and also hope it lends a reference point for those seeking a baseline as to what these instruments sound like.

https://soundcloud.com/paul-viapiano/5-24-16-rd-gm-adagio

[PVia]

Thanks, everyone...

The recording setup is a pair of Neumann U89 mics directly into an Apogee Quartet interface, recorded into Logic Pro X. Mics are about 10" apart from each other facing the instrument, just like a set of ears would hear it. The instrument is generally 12-18" away from the mics. I use a touch of digital reverb, but no compression or EQ.

I usually play several takes all the way through, listen back and see what isn't sounding the way I want it to, maybe a note not ringing or I can tell that it sounds like I'm struggling with a transition, etc and I go back and try to smooth that out with some practice. I'll go back and do another take or two, and am usually satisfied at that point.

I generally don't punch in to fix things, but if I've played a good take of a 4-5 minute piece and I fluff a note on the last bar, I will definitely go in and repair that.




Very nice performance! Would you care to share your recording set up? Is that the natural ambiance of the room, or did you add analog or digital reverb to the finished recording?

[mandroid]

93 years ago did St Lloyd sign everything made in that shop at that time?

[Bob Bass]

It seems that Loar signed F5 mandolins, H5 mandolas, K5 mandocellos (guitar-bodied), and L5 guitars, but not the TL tenor lutes (A style mandola size body w/f holes & 24 fret banjo neck), or any banjos, or round-hole mandolin family instruments or round hole guitars.