String height on Oscar Scmidt 12-string bowlback

[Moon]

Hello,
I recently purchased (on eBay) a mandriola. It is lovely, sounds incredible, looks beautiful.

Only problem is I have to press pretty hard for a clean note. The string height increases up the neck, but on most instruments I've adjusted, I could lower the bridge. This Oscar Schmidt has a very low (and unusual) bridge.

See photos. Is there anything can be done, or do I just do finger exercises to increase my strength? I'm developing callouses as the first several sessions playing tire my fingertips up...

Thanks as usual!🎸

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[RodCH]

I think you should contact a luthier. Looks like there is a neck reset in your future. Sorry.

[Moon]

Neck reset? It's 100+ years old. It's gone this long without getting altered. I was thinking a minor adjustment, not taking the old thing apart.

Nah, not doing that. Couldn't afford it anyway. It sounds beautiful, I guess I'll just develop stronger fingers!

[Jeff Mando]

Looks like pretty high action, unfortunately. The cheapo solutions are shaving (sanding) the bridge down (from the bottom side), using a lower tuning, using lighter gauged strings, and yes, develop stronger fingers!

[Jim Garber]

Neck reset? It's 100+ years old. It's gone this long without getting altered. I was thinking a minor adjustment, not taking the old thing apart.

Very common with old bowlbacks. I would not say that it went this long without getting altered. It changed over time probably due to adverse weather conditions (heat and dryness) and strings that were too heavy. The other possible thing to do is to have a new and thicker fretboard made and shim up the bridge but this will cost money or time. If you ca play it with that action, good luck to you.

[allenhopkins]

Neck reset? It's 100+ years old. It's gone this long without getting altered. I was thinking a minor adjustment, not taking the old thing apart. Nah, not doing that. Couldn't afford it anyway. It sounds beautiful, I guess I'll just develop stronger fingers!

Well, if you don't do that, you're going to have to put up with what you have. Bridge height could be lowered somewhat, by sanding the base down, but doubt you could get acceptable action that way; yours is 'way too high.

Mandriolas, with their 12 strings, put even more string tension on the neck and top than regular mandolins. Many bowl-backs have comparatively fragile neck joints, susceptible to being pulled forward by the strings.

You've already had some complications getting your instrument strung with proper gauges. Also, you've had problems with the octave strings not intonating in tune, and if you have to stretch the strings that far to get them down on the frets, your problems are exacerbated. Remember, I advised fretting with a light touch to minimize the discrepancies between the heavier and lighter strings when fretted? You can't possibly use a light touch when you have to mash down the strings that far to the fretboard.

I'd de-tune the strings at least a full tone -- G to F, etc. -- to slacken the tension and make fretting a bit easier. Instrument won't project as well, but it'll be more playable. Triple-string courses are harder to fret anyway, and triple courses and high action are a lethal combination.

At least take the mandriola to a repair tech and get an estimate on a neck re-set. Might not cost as much as you fear, and it really is the only good answer to your problem.

[Tavy]

Hard to tell from those photos, but by the same the action increases dramatically in the first few frets I would suspect the neck is no longer straight?

So either the string tensions are too high and it's bowing the neck (these need *very* light strings to cope with 12 of them - 9-32 gauges would be good), or the neck and/or fretboard are no longer straight.

I would be inclined to rule out a neck reset on the grounds that I doubt anyone knows how that model was constructed and whether it's even possible. Levelling or shimming or replacing the fretboard might fix things, but the repair person would have to have the instrument in person to tell for sure.

HTH, John.

[Moon]

Thanks for the suggestions. It's certainly playable! I'm not going to do anything drastic to it. I am using .09-.32's on it, it's strung GDAE all the way across (no octave strings) and the neck is straight.
My fingers don't spend a lot of time way down by the sound hole anyway, ... I'll just develop a good grip.

Maybe it'll come in handy when I use it to chokehold someone for messing with it... ;-)

[brunello97]

My dos centavos: i don't think it is a neck issue, but a top issue. The side detail photo looks like the top is caving in a bit north of the soundhole--a pretty common problem with bowlbacks from my experience, due to age, overstringing or just bad design as mis amigos have noted.

Martin, Vinaccia and Embergher all added a stiffener plate between the neck block and northernmost top brace to help counteract this. Why this wasn't SOP for all builders, I don't know. Embergher added some braces E and W of the soundhole (on some examples at least) to obvious little effect on the sound quality. If it is good enough for Martin, Vinaccia and Embergher...well. I add these to my bowlbacks as a precautionary measure before problems arise and recommend it wholeheartedly.

Our friend (accessible here), Jake 'the Snake' Wildwood would be the man to contact even if he is a full continent away from Wyoming. He's a chiropractor with odd neck resets. My guess is that OS was using a dovetail neckjoint which would make such radical surgery much more accessible. (I'd still add the Martin / Embergher belts and suspenders.) IIRC he's performed John 11:1-44 on a few OS mandolins by now.

The fretboard shim seems like the most expedient solution, though without the top stiffening described above you are playing roulette Russe. I've been there with a couple Washburns and they are muy mucho stouter than OS. If you dig it, take the time and dinero to get it working right. Call Jake.

Jake has turned more than a few sow's ears into silk purses as we have all been witness too. I dream of the day Jim Garber and I can sit back and buy Jake and John M a sequence of beers (ales?) and let them swap licks on their repair stories while we smile and nod.

I've never really gotten the appeal of these 12 strings but I dig people who have.

Mick

[Jeff Mando]

A quickie test you can do without sanding the bridge, is replace the bridge temporarily with something less "tall" and retune, checking the action for playability. With guitars I use something like a Bic pen which is hexagonal and won't roll, but a pencil will work fine. A match stick will work to check the action, also. Something like drill bits might work. Dowel sticks. You get the idea and it costs nothing to try. If you find that the action improves drastically, you can sand the bridge to that same height, or if you don't want to destroy the original bridge, buy a $5 bridge on eBay. I'm a cheapskate and somewhat agree with the "it's a 100 years old and no need to mess with it philosophy". Just get it up and running. No need to spend "neck set" type money. Of course, following that philosophy myself, means I own a lot a wallhangers, but they are pretty wallhangers!!! :mandosmiley:

[Capt. E]

I have had a good number of old bowl-backs pass through my hands and have yet to find one where the string height is comfortable. Neck bow is common as well from being stored with full string tension for decade after decade. My opinion is that the standard for string-height 100 years ago was higher than is acceptable these days. Another problem is that the tuning standard might not be 440. Modern Baroque pitch is 415, Chorton pitch is 466, Classical pitch is 430, etc., to illustrate some possibilities.
You seem to have a good example with a straight neck etc. Lowering the bridge may be difficult as it looks pretty low already in your photos. You might think about just getting a replacement and fitting it, keeping the original as is.