Affordable 10 string mandolin/mandola?

[Don Dv]

Hello. While lurking around, I learned that an affordable mandolin is somewhere in the $100 - $200 range, and going for much less depends on what one is willing to put up with as far as low quality/problems, etc.

But I have not been able to find an affordable 10 string mandolin/mandola, it seems all discussions revolve around high end instruments, handmade and ordered direct from well respected luthiers, ranging between $3,000 - $10,000 or more.

Even with a realistic price range between $500 - $1,000, I still can't seem to locate one.

Since I think a mandolin I might like to buy for the price is probably the Eastman MD504 or the MD505, where could I find a 10 string mandolin/mandola of similar quality and price? Obviously the intent is to get a good instrument for as little money as possible.

Thanks for listening.

P.S. I play several other instruments, but not the mandolin just yet.

[MikeEdgerton]

There are a whole lot of inexpensive 10-stringed instruments around. You may not find one listed as a mandola or mandolin.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR11.TRC1.A0.H0.X10-string.TRS0&_nkw=10-string&_sacat=0


https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dmi&field-keywords=10-string+cuatro&rh=n%3A11091801%2Ck%3A10-string+cuatro

[Don Dv]

Thanks for your comment, I suppose expanding the search to all 10 string hits might help, though I was hoping for known sellers I guess.

I am certainly willing to pay more than the price of a cuatro in that amazon search.

[MikeEdgerton]

You can tune it the way you want to as long as the scale length is close. The 10-stringed mandolin is not a real popular instrument in the US. If you're looking for one that is inexpensive chances are it will be sold in a country outside the US. People here convert guitars and other instruments all the time in an attempt to get the lesser available mandolin family instruments for less money than a custom built instrument.

[MikeEdgerton]

Reverb.com will pop up an occasional 10-string Citern as well. To my knowledge there are no inexpensive 10 string mandolins or mandolas being imported into the US. There are plenty of inexpensive mandolin family instruments with 8 strings.

[Don Dv]

Wouldn't a converted instrument would have the fret tuning all wrong, or at least not very accurate?

Plus the issues of string tension on the neck, etc.

If an international seller is reputable enough, I would be willing to go that route, within a reasonable price, for a 10 string mandola.

I found one for just over $700 posted, but it was sold out of course. By inexpensive I don't mean cheap, I mean, not top of the line or even near it.

[MikeEdgerton]

Wouldn't a converted instrument would have the fret tuning all wrong, or at least not very accurate?

Plus the issues of string tension on the neck, etc.....

Not necessarily.

One company that is mentioned now and again in the UK is https://www.hobgoblin.com/. They import instruments for their market. Their house brand is Ashbury. I don't know if they will have 10-string mandolas or not. You might check out the site.

[Jes Woodland]

One company that is mentioned now and again in the UK is https://www.hobgoblin.com/. They import instruments for their market. Their house brand is Ashbury. I don't know if they will have 10-string mandolas or not. You might check out the site.
Hobgoblin have a 10 string Ashbury Pacific Cittern...ref:GR34016.....for £529. I've used
Hobgoblin for many years and always found Pete,Mannie and their staff very helpful!

[multidon]

Too bad you didn't scoop up the Moon 10 string that was at Elderly a while back. It sat unsold for a few months before it finally went. 725 dollars if memory serves. They still have a 10 string Moon cittern for 900 dollars and I don't understand why it's still there. I played it and it is sweet but scale is a bit long for me. Moon lists his price for an entry level mandolin at 795 pounds, not sure what making it a 10 string would add.

[pheffernan]

Even with a realistic price range between $500 - $1,000, I still can't seem to locate one.

If I were looking for a ten-string in that price range, I'd jump on the Moon cittern on consignment at Elderly:

http://www.elderly.com/instruments/mandolin-family/moon-cittern-recent.htm

[multidon]

Ha ha Patrick, great minds think alike!

[Jim Garber]

IMHO the main problem with 10 string instruments is determining the proper scale length. If you use a standard the mandolin scale the lower C course is too loose. If you use a longer scale the upper E course is too tight and you break strings. Some luthiers have used multiple scale lengths with slanted frets and that seems to work. Unlikely that you will will find a bargain 10 string tho. Custom shops make them but I don't know of any factories that do.

10 strings are pretty popular in choro music and you might be able to buy one from one of those makers at a semi-reasonable price. You can reach some on the Bandolim Eye Candy page (http://www.mandolincafe.com/archives/builders/bandolim.html).

[Jim Garber]

There are a whole lot of inexpensive 10-stringed instruments around. You may not find one listed as a mandola or mandolin.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR11.TRC1.A0.H0.X10-string.TRS0&_nkw=10-string&_sacat=0
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dmi&field-keywords=10-string+cuatro&rh=n%3A11091801%2Ck%3A10-string+cuatro

I thought of cuatros too but the scale length would work better for a cittern-voiced instrument since it is usually about 20 inches scale.

[pheffernan]

Ha ha Patick, great minds think alike!

The few, the proud . . . the enablers. :))

[Don Dv]

I love the sound of citterns, but in comparing the sound of citterns on youtube with the sound of true 10 string mandolin/mandola (whatever that means), I notice that there is a distinct sound difference, and I tend to prefer the more aggressive, biting dark sound of an instrument like what Hamilton de Holanda and similar performers play, than the more gentle cittern sound.

As far as size, I don't want an instrument that is too big, though I must admit I am partial to the darker sound of the instrument de Holanda plays. I play the viola, so I guess that is one reason. From the other discussions I gather 15 inches or so is about right for a 10 string?

As far as custom shops, are there any that sell anything in the $1,000 and under range? Even $1,000 is really more than I wish to spend, I am just trying to keep an open mind concerning pricing.

[Jim Garber]

Maybe you can settle for a mandola for that lower sound? Like this Trinity College mandola (http://www.sagamusic.com/products/product-details.aspx?item=TM-275) in your price range?

I am not sure of his pricing but Dudu Maia plays a 10-string bandolim by Pedro Santos (http://pedrosantos.com.br/portfolio_page/bandolins/). I have a feeling it is above $1000 but you can check...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmX-Ce-357A

[Don Dv]

Maybe you can settle for a mandola for that lower sound?

If you are trying to convince me not to get a 10 string, showing me that video is not going to help. :mandosmiley:

As far as a plain mandola, since I have never seen one in person, this is what I need to know : can one put down all 4 fingers on the fingerboard simultaneously, without straining yourself, like you would on a violin or viola, say on the A string like this: A0, B1, C2, D3, E4?

If this is not possible, then maybe the instrument is too big for what I might want (immediate transfer from violin/viola left hand technique). Since I also play cello, I know I can handle the size, but I am not sure that would be my preference.

[allenhopkins]

IMHO the main problem with 10 string instruments is determining the proper scale length. If you use a standard the mandolin scale the lower C course is too loose. If you use a longer scale the upper E course is too tight and you break strings. Some luthiers have used multiple scale lengths with slanted frets and that seems to work. Unlikely that you will will find a bargain 10 string tho. Custom shops make them but I don't know of any factories that do.

I had a ten-string mandolin/dola built for me by Bernie Lehmann here in Rochester; "fanned" frets and fairly extremely slanted nut and bridge. Scale lengths range from 14 inches on the E string to 16.5 inches on the C string. A beautiful instrument, and I use it quite a lot, but definitely is a "compromise" in terms of the voices of a mandolin vs. a mandola.

147339

By the way, cost me about $4K, plus a Cedar Creek case.

[Ted Eschliman]

I think Thomas Flood may have retired from building budget priced instruments, but he built me a decent (under $1K) 10-string awhile ago. Hate to get anyone's hopes up, because I haven't heard from the Las Vegas art teacher in five years, and I'm not even sure how to get a hold of him. Note the links listed below and on the Cafe Builders Resource page are no longer active.

Thomas Flood 10-string

http://jazzmando.com/images/Floodtone10_top.jpg (http://jazzmando.com/thomas_flood_10-string.shtml)

[MikeEdgerton]

I believe he retired. He sold off all his spare parts in the classifieds last year.

[Jim Garber]

If you are trying to convince me not to get a 10 string, showing me that video is not going to help. :mandosmiley:

As far as a plain mandola, since I have never seen one in person, this is what I need to know : can one put down all 4 fingers on the fingerboard simultaneously, without straining yourself, like you would on a violin or viola, say on the A string like this: A0, B1, C2, D3, E4?

If this is not possible, then maybe the instrument is too big for what I might want (immediate transfer from violin/viola left hand technique). Since I also play cello, I know I can handle the size, but I am not sure that would be my preference.

The main problem is your budget. 10-strings are generally custom instruments and unless you find a budding luthier who wants to try his hand at one you prob need to up your budget.

I think most CGDA mandolas would be fine for a viola-size instrument.

[Marty Jacobson]

Nobody has mentioned a Waldzither yet. They are cheap, and often have 9 strings so you can sort of get that 10-string vibe. My Bohm is tuned GDAEB but FCGDA works better.

[David Houchens]

170284

This needs a little work. Haven't looked at it in a long time. To be honest, I'm not totally sure what to call it.

[Seter]

Looks like a bandurria, 12 strings tuned in 4ths.

[stinkoman20xx]

I sent you a PM on one that is under $400.

[Don Dv]

I sent you a PM on one that is under $400.

Odd, I never saw your message. I just checked my user settings, all normal, I should have been notified of a PM, hmm.

Currently I am thinking Brazil, maybe. Online prices at least seem very reasonable, the issue would be finding a trusted seller, then having it shipped to the USA.

It seems 1k buys a lot of mandolin in Brazil, though now I can afford a little more than when I originally created this topic.

[Jim Garber]

Don Dv: that poster sent you that PM almost a year ago.

Good luck on the bandolim from Brazil. I actually saw one by Rozini. That is a budget brand and probably will have solid top and laminated back and sides. I have a cavaquinho of that brand and it is decent.

Here is the Rozini Holanda model (http://rozinibrazil.com/en/nossosprodutos/bandolim-hamilton-holanda-10-strings/).

178574

[Ranger Bob]

I just bought a 10 string Weber Yellowstone f style mandola. Seller said it had been dropped and that the top had sinkage when using 10 strings. Didn’t look that bad to me in the photos so, after consulting with Bruce I bought it. Sent it to Bruce for a “once over.” After new frets, new bridge and a few cosmetic touch ups got it back. Looks and sounds fantastic. Bruce said to build it today would cost somebody $10K. He estimated it’s current value for insurance purposes at $7K. So I wound up with a $7K instrument for a fraction of that, including repair and tweaks. I am much pleased.

[Jim Garber]

Ranger Bob: can you post some photos or even a recording. I don’t know if I ever saw a 10-string Weber. Also, what is the scale length?

[Ranger Bob]

178636178637178638178639178640178641

OK Jim,
A little more back story: When I talked to Bruce he said it is normal to have a little top leveling, especially with a 10 stringer. He put a new bridge on it. It had the original "S" base which he doesn't use anymore and put on an offset top. The new bridge base has a little wider footprint which helps to reduce the perception of (or actual) top leveling. The tuners are Waverly guitar singles modified to fit. Allen TP. Scale is 17". The .12's 1st course was what Bruce had intended. I find they are OK for a D but are at breaking point tuned to E. So, I am experimenting with maybe a lighter 1st course to tune to E. Meantime, having it tuned to D is more like my cittern tuning and I'm working well with it. Posting these pics has tested the limits of my technical skills. When I recover I will try to post an sound clip. See? I couldn't even get the pictured turned correctly! BTW, Bruce said he only made 3 of these.

[Ranger Bob]

I forgot to add that Bruce also put on a new nut and planed and re-fretted. The fret board work wasn't necessary right now but the truss rod was maxed out and it would have been needed sooner rather than later. He also smoothed out the speed neck which had some roughness.

[Jim Garber]

Strange to have a .012 tuned to E for a 17" scale. D'Addario J74 has .011 as E strings and the scale is usually under 14". I woul go much lighter I would think.

BTW what exactly is an "offset top"?

[Ranger Bob]

Offset bridge top/saddle.

[Ranger Bob]

Strange to have a .012 tuned to E for a 17" scale. D'Addario J74 has .011 as E strings and the scale is usually under 14". I woul go much lighter I would think.

BTW what exactly is an "offset top"?

Exactly about the .12. I am going to try .10 and .09 just to see how they work.

[Explorer]

I have some bad news.

A plain steel string will break fairly quickly when tuned to G#4 at a scale length of 25.5". if the string is thicker, it is stronger, but needs more tension to get to pitch. If the string is thinner, it requires less tension, but will break at around that pitch.

A plain steel string will break at a pitch of D#5 at a scale length of 17", for the same reasons.

You need a maximum scale length of around 15" to get comfortably to E5. You are a few inches longer than that, so D5 is pretty much your highest pitch if you expect strings to last at all.

Sorry!

[ollaimh]

Maybe you can settle for a mandola for that lower sound? Like this Trinity College mandola (http://www.sagamusic.com/products/product-details.aspx?item=TM-275) in your price range?

I am not sure of his pricing but Dudu Maia plays a 10-string bandolim by Pedro Santos (http://pedrosantos.com.br/portfolio_page/bandolins/). I have a feeling it is above $1000 but you can check...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmX-Ce-357A

i love jacob do bandolin. i had a cassette years ago then flound a cd and a few years ago found a book of tabs for that cd. gotta learn a few.

[ollaimh]

there is a relatively insexpensive short scale cittern in the classifieds now--not mine-- by our long term friend nick appollonio from maine.

[Ranger Bob]

I have some bad news.

A plain steel string will break fairly quickly when tuned to G#4 at a scale length of 25.5". if the string is thicker, it is stronger, but needs more tension to get to pitch. If the string is thinner, it requires less tension, but will break at around that pitch.

A plain steel string will break at a pitch of D#5 at a scale length of 17", for the same reasons.

You need a maximum scale length of around 15" to get comfortably to E5. You are a few inches longer than that, so D5 is pretty much your highest pitch if you expect strings to last at all.

Sorry!

Thanks. I agree. Bruce was able to get .12's to work with E5 but, broke some in the process. I have found that D5 works just fine and is close to the tuning I used for my cittern. So, I am making some adjustments and I will keep the 1st course tuned to D5.

[Don Dv]

Don Dv: that poster sent you that PM almost a year ago.


Yes, unfortunately I only saw it very recently, so I was surprised about not catching it sooner.



Good luck on the bandolim from Brazil. I actually saw one by Rozini. That is a budget brand and probably will have solid top and laminated back and sides. I have a cavaquinho of that brand and it is decent.

Here is the Rozini Holanda model (http://rozinibrazil.com/en/nossosprodutos/bandolim-hamilton-holanda-10-strings/).

178574

Apparently they do not sell direct, I guess they have some of the same concerns I have, about reliability or something.

Maybe I need to post a separate topic concerning buying from Brazil.

[Jaco Emmanuel]

Am I too late to this thread?

I'm currently hunting hard for a 10-stringer

[Jim Garber]

You are only about 3-1/2 years late.

BTW I wonder about this thing for a conversion to 10-string, 5 course instrument. Scale is 15”. https://goldtonemusicgroup.com/goldtone/instruments/f-12

Though nut width is 1-7/8”… though you would not have to find hardware.

207235

[JeffD]

Never too late. :)

Like anything else, quality and cost are going to be related.

The 10 string covers my mandola needs easier than schlepping both mandolin and mandola everywhere, and switching back and forth, and all that.

I finally settled on a Girouard 10 string fan fret instrument. The issues related to the fan frets are not difficult. Within a day or to it was second nature. I had more problem making the transition to having a new bottom as I had been associating "bottom" with G string for so long. But even that goes away with practice.

There are lots of threads regarding 10 string instruments, and the advantages of fan fret, and they are worth finding.

[Explorer]

I wonder about this thing for a conversion to 10-string, 5 course instrument. Scale is 15”. https://goldtonemusicgroup.com/goldtone/instruments/f-12

Somebody did manage it.

207239

Details in the following topic.

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/threads/163316-Don%E2%80%99t-shoot-me-Need-Gold-Tone-F12-Mod-advice

[JeffD]

The obvious benefit of a fan fret for a ten string is that you have multiple scale lengths. So on the deep end you have a true mandola feeling, scale length, fret spacing. And on the high end you have a true mandolin feeling, scale length, fret spacing. The bottom isn't too floppy, and the top isn't to tight. And, of course, every string in between. It all feels and sounds like a family. Different pitch but similar enough tones. And that feel.

I started my five course adventure in the electric world. I was jonesing for a five string electric and got a Fender FM60E SB. And I do love playing it, But getting the sound and feeling of the bottom string right has been a challenge. I am sure once I get the string gauge right it will be great, but that is what moved me in the fan fret direction when I wanted five courses in the acoustic world.

My aha moment was meeting Allen Hopkins at a festival and noodling with his Lehmann fan fret 10 string. I was intimidated by expected problems with fingering, but to my surprise it was easy to get used to and actually felt good.

[Tom Wright]

No one in the U.S. makes a low-priced 10-string. Tom Buchanan in England makes a good one for less than $1500. I have three, and the third one is really good. It records well and is popular for folk dances.