Circa 1919 F5 Gibson?

[mujiir]

Just wondering what we actually have here... I was told Circa 1919 Gibson F5, but I am the all not knowing. :)

[Glassweb]

sorry to say it's not only a fake, it's a very bad attempt at a fake. steer clear! oh wait a minute... the tailpiece is actually a genuine Gibson tailpiece from that era. but that's all...

[jim simpson]

it qualifies for entrance into the hall of shame thread: Worst Scrolls

[Bill Snyder]

1919 F-5? Not only is this not a 1919 Gibson F-5 (no such thing) it is not a Gibson.

[MikeEdgerton]

The F5 wasn't introduced until the twenties. Beyond that, as stated above, it isn't a Gibson.

[michaelcj]

I'd be willing to bet that the builder wasn't trying to "create" a fake gibson, unlike the current seller who may be trying to pass it off as one… Some fella's [ Initial "S"] Try at making one for himself. And who knows what he had to work with… $$$, Tools, Experience, Knowlwdge????

At the time it was built a Gibson tailpiece may have been all he could get his hands on?

But he had a desire to try his hand, had a go at it and it looks like he may have played it quite a bit as well [from the looks of the fingerboard].

I say bravo to the builder, whoever he was…. and shame to the current seller if he is indeed trying to represent this as a Gibson. Shame doesn't apply to the OP if it came into his possession and he just doesn't know what he has.

[mrmando]

The F5 was introduced in 1922, so there's no such thing as a 1919 F5. This is a pretty crude copy. The tailpiece is worth a hundred bucks or so; the rest of it is firewood.

[William Smith]

Yep not a Gibson but would maybe be a good mandolin to learn on for someone, I learned on a homemade copy that was kinda crude.

[MikeEdgerton]

...At the time it was built a Gibson tailpiece may have been all he could get his hands on?...

He probably had to work to find that one. There were probably generic tailpieces readily available (Clam shell, etc.). That one had to come off an instrument.

[seg]

I kinda like it, got an earthy funky look to it. As mentioned earlier, looks like it's been played a lot. Have you played it?

[Jeff Mando]

Someone thought enough of it to buy a hardshell case for it. Might sound good....

[mujiir]

No one is trying to sell any kind of bogus anything here. This belongs to my neighbor lady (60+ years old). It was left to her by her father who played it in a band in the 1940s. So I know it's at least that old. It has a nice sound, which I'm sure would be even nicer if I knew how to tune it. Being a Gibson guitar guy, she asked me if I knew anything about it, and I thought I should ask folks that are in the know. But I hate to tell her some of what I read here... Thank you all for taking the time to respond. Be well.

[FLATROCK HILL]

No one is trying to sell any kind of bogus anything here. This belongs to my neighbor lady (60+ years old). It was left to her by her father who played it in a band in the 1940s. So I know it's at least that old. It has a nice sound, which I'm sure would be even nicer if I knew how to tune it. Being a Gibson guitar guy, she asked me if I knew anything about it, and I thought I should ask folks that are in the know. But I hate to tell her some of what I read here... Thank you all for taking the time to respond. Be well.

mujiir,

I understand why you'd be hesitant to tell your neighbor lady some of the responses you got here. I don't think anyone meant to say anything hurtful though.

You say your neighbor lady "asked me if I knew anything about it". I think if you'd have approached the issue here with that same question, the responses might have been a little more tempered.

You said in your first post "I was told Circa 1919 Gibson F5". Whoever told you that was wrong obviously, and that's why you got some of the blunt responses.

Probably the kindest and best way to relay the news to your neighbor would be to simply tell her what michaelcj said in post #6.

[Jeff Mando]

or you could say it is a handmade vintage F style mandolin with a Gibson tailpiece. nothing wrong with that.

[Timbofood]

Let's face it, responses you will get here(myself included) may seem a little harsh but, I really don't think anyone here is out to be hurtful, merely accurate.
The TP is Gibson, the rest is not. I have had to tell people they do not have what they think they have for years, it's not a fun job. All you can do is be honest. I like they way michalecj said it too, kindly and carefully. Worst one I had was a guy that came in with a fake Rolex, when I told him, he was crestfallen! He said "I could have bought a used Volvo for what I paid for that!" This was a very large strong man, I was not enjoying the conversation, to say the least. But, he visibly melted in front of me.
Hey, by the way, 60 is the new thirty so don't think that is an "old neighbor lady"!

[Jeff Mando]

Hey, by the way, 60 is the new thirty so don't think that is an "old neighbor lady"!

How come my 60 year old body feels like it's 80, most of the time? :crying:

To the OP, if you are new to mandolins, it takes a little time to get up to speed with the "thinking" here. Just as the Fender Stratocaster is probably the most copied guitar in the world, the Gibson F-5 mandolin is the most copied mandolin. Note, I said copied, not faked. Copies are fine. Some copies are beginners models and sell for a couple hundred dollars. Other copies are made by master craftsmen (luthiers) and the prices reflect that. Only when a copy has the Gibson name on it does it become a fake or counterfeit. And, technically, only when an instrument is offered for sale as such. This mandolin has an "S" on the peghead, probably referring to the person who built it, so I don't consider it a fake. I personally don't consider the Gibson tailpiece to be the "nameplate" or logo of the mandolin, but just of the tailpiece, itself. Just as people might put Gibson pickups in a Fender guitar, nobody thinks the guitar is now a Gibson.

[Timbofood]

Doggone it Jeff!
I blew my back out yesterday so, I hear you! Last night in back brace and muscle relaxant, today I can almost stand up without screaming so, Im on the mend!
And what you say is fair and accurate, it's more a tribute than copy. But, telling the truth, it's simply not the Gibson she thinks it is

[houseworker]

No one is trying to sell any kind of bogus anything here. This belongs to my neighbor lady (60+ years old). It was left to her by her father who played it in a band in the 1940s. So I know it's at least that old.

Let's start with the obvious. The case and strap are pretty much brand new.

There's no significant age in the tuners. The very contemporary plastic pearloid buttons have no handling marks whatever, and I doubt those tuners have been used much.

The veneer on the front of the headstock also looks new. Normally a headstock veneer will attract small scratches from the end of the strings but that one is absolutely unmarked.

The ivoroid binding round the headstock is of quite a different pattern to the rest of the instrument. It is top-bound with black 'purfling'.

The fingerboard has had some use, but there's no significant wear.

The frets are of modern profile. They have some wear, but like likely to be contemporary with the fingerboard.

There are no pick marks whatever on the top of the instrument, which looks to have been stained quite recently to give the appearance of age.

The Gibson tailpiece cover could quite conceivably date from 1919. Other than that, I think the rest of the instrument is modern, and that your "neighbour lady" is spinning you a yarn.

[Willie Poole]

What makes all of you think that the tail piece is even a real Gibson one, I have a few of them that say Gibson, they are not hard to find either....Why do I have them you ask? I bought them many years ago from a builder, whose name shall remain nameless, when he was getting too old to build any more mandolins, he built some of the best copies that I have ever seen...

Willie

[Jeff Mando]

hmmmmmmm, the plot thickens......maybe the sweet old lady is really Ma Barker and she's masterminding a ring of counterfeiters making ugly scroll F-5's........ugly flower pot inlay, too, now that you mention it!

just kidding, couldn't resist :))

[mujiir]

Actually, "This belongs to my neighbor lady (60+ years old)" But hell, I'm 62... So old is a relative term. Thanks for all the help folks. Happy mandoing. ;-)

[LadysSolo]

As I have said recently," when I was 12, 16 was old. When I was 16, 21 was old. When I was in my 20s, 40 was old. Now I am 61, and old is way back into the late 90s." But I agree, my brain is 18 but my body says, "Who are you kidding?!?" LOL!!

[mrmando]

Regarding the tone of the thread, many of these conversations involve an instrument that either is for sale or that the OP has recently purchased. There's a difference between an innocent misrepresentation and one that involves money.

If it really is from the '40s, there would be a little historical interest, because that's awfully early for an F5 copy (the earliest known such copy is from 1934). But as houseworker points out, parts of it are more recent than the '40s, so if it's that old, it's had significant work done. We'd need photographic or documentary evidence to establish its age.

No F5 player attaches the strap via the headstock scroll ... that'd be precarious at best. The strap represents an attempt to dress up the instrument ... it wasn't put there by a mandolin player.

[MikeEdgerton]

The tailpiece cover is real.

[mrmando]

Hard to fake the verdigris...

[Timbofood]

So Jesse McReynolds has used the "precarious" headstock attachment for some time in the past, I guess he's not really an F-5 player.
I can make pretty much anything old, verdigris can be done by those with some knowledge.
The real thing about this is simply it's not what the owner thinks, it's hers, not anyone else's. No reason to do more than rain on the parade, a tornado isn't necessary. It sounds to me like a friend is simply trying to get some information, plain and simple.

[mrmando]

So Jesse McReynolds has used the "precarious" headstock attachment for some time in the past, I guess he's not really an F-5 player.
Here's Jesse in 1962; the thong on the strap goes straight across the headstock below the highest pair of tuners. The headstock scroll is not involved. This is a holdover from earlier in his career, when he played an A style. At some later point he gave up and started using his scroll as a strap hanger like everyone else.
146809

[Timbofood]

I stand corrected.

[Bernie Daniel]

No one is trying to sell any kind of bogus anything here. This belongs to my neighbor lady (60+ years old). It was left to her by her father who played it in a band in the 1940s. So I know it's at least that old. It has a nice sound, which I'm sure would be even nicer if I knew how to tune it. Being a Gibson guitar guy, she asked me if I knew anything about it, and I thought I should ask folks that are in the know. But I hate to tell her some of what I read here... Thank you all for taking the time to respond. Be well.

I agree with you -- you said nothing at all that IMO should lead to some of the less then welcoming speculation that followed.

Here is the OP's original and first post on the Mandolin Cafe:


Just wondering what we actually have here... I was told Circa 1919 Gibson F5, but I am the all not knowing. :)

I don't understand what in this statement should trigger concerns about unethical sales or nominations for ugliest mandolin award?

[Bernie Daniel]

As I have said recently," when I was 12, 16 was old. When I was 16, 21 was old. When I was in my 20s, 40 was old. Now I am 61, and old is way back into the late 90s." But I agree, my brain is 18 but my body says, "Who are you kidding?!?" LOL!!

Truth.

[allenhopkins]

Yeah, let's stop impugning people's motives. Just a straightforward inquiry for information; no one trying to swindle anyone.

Does show issues related to "provenance" on some out-of-the-ordinary instruments, though. The owner, daughter of the guy who performed with the mandolin, had only recollection of what her father said about it. She took it to a "Gibson guitar guy" because the tailpiece cover said "Gibson" -- a name with which many non-musicians are familiar. Stories get attached to instruments that are passed along among family members and friends, and are presented as "fact" because "that's what Dad said."

We who fancy ourselves experts, can snicker a bit -- "You call that a Gibson?" -- but honestly, most of us, myself included, have offered opinions on the Cafe that better-informed people, or additional available information, have proved to be inaccurate. Whoever made this non-Gibson, someone played it for years, and someone may play it again. It's got a family history, and we can wonder where it came from, and who put it together.

Without assuming that the original question was related to any kind of scam.

[dhergert]

Being somewhat of a split personality between mando and banjo, I also sort of split my online time between here and Banjo Hangout. As most of you probably are aware, we have a lot more "Gibson-ish" copies of varying degree flowing through the banjo marketplace. In the case of banjos, somewhat due to their easy bolt-on construction, there are a fair amount of these copies or partial copies that are intentionally foisted in various online markets as original, enough so that many of the Banjo Hangout folks take it upon themselves to watch for this kind of thing. Banjo Hangout is one of a few pretty reliable sources of free banjo originality info, often used by "newby" people who are interested in verification of originality.

And like in this thread, with banjo verification it's really easy to get so involved in details that we forget the human faces behind the questions. Usually people try to be cordial, as people here also try, but sometimes feelings get hurt and it's too bad. And every once in a while in these Banjo Hangout threads, information provided isn't completely accurate, requiring a longer thread to hash out what is really true.

In my own experience in Banjo Hangout, I was recently surprised by some obviously original details that I had never seen in a banjo before. Realizing how many other variations there must be in true factory original banjos, I've personally decided to step-back instead of speak up when originality questions come up. But that's an accuracy based concern that pointed me to that decision...

I don't know what the solution to hurt feelings is. If someone comes here or to Banjo Hangout wanting to know what they have, sometimes the news is going to be good and sometimes it is going to be bad. For people providing information who have confidence that their accuracy is good, I still think this is a good and valuable service, and that unfortunately sometimes the truth hurts.

I know if I had an old, possibly valuable mando that I wanted to know the truth about, this is where I'd come.

-- Don

[Tobin]

I'm surprised no one has asked this yet: is there any sort of label or writing inside the body? You may need a mirror and flashlight to see all around in there. Whoever built this may have signed it or dated it somehow.