Extended fretboards are they a nuisance?

[julyboy]

I have seen mandolins with these extended fretboards almost all the way down to the picking zone. I do not see a real need for them with most playing but if I am wrong please correct me. My concern was that I had seen a gentleman playing one and I kept hearing a clacking noise and thought to myself he must be hitting that useless extended fretboard. Why does he not just cut it off. Any info or advice to help me understand why some mandolins have this long of a fret board would be appreciated.

[DataNick]

Covered ad-nauseum on this site: these threads are good for info, happy reading!

Florida Extension Mandolin Cafe (https://www.google.com/?ion=1&espv=2#q=Florida+Extension+site%3Amandolincafe.com )

[Mike001]

I've never understood them either and I've never seen anyone play up there. I know I'm going to be corrected because I'm sure somebody does....but what percentage of players? It has to be less than one percent. To me they're not attractive, serve no purpose (to most players), and then there's the whole clicking issue. The one that really gets me is the scooped fretboard with the phony frets.

[fentonjames]

well, a ton of people saw them off or whittle 'em down, so....

[AlanN]

And many just leave them be. Wayne Benson says it adds zing! to the E string. I agree.

[DataNick]

This was the most recent discussion; some of the classical guys chimed in per its usage in that genre

Florida Use It Or Lose It (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?122179-Florida-Use-It-Or-Lose-It)

[Astro]

Yes.

Unless scooped. Then they are handy to attach pick guards and dont get in the way.

[julyboy]

Yes.

Unless scooped. Then they are handy to attach pick guards and dont get in the way.

What is a scooped fret board?

[LongBlackVeil]

I've never had any trouble with them. I guess it's just the way I pick. I don't put my pick too deep into the strings, I don't think you're really supposed to, at least that's the way I was taught. But plenty of people play much better than me and DO have a problem with the extension, so I wouldn't go as far as to say it's bad technique. Just like many people would say planting is bad technique but I think they'd have a problem saying that with a straight face in front of Steffey while he's playing.

Luckily there are lots of options today, so you gotta find out what works for you

No need for a scoop for me, so it looks good and it's a non issue. Win win as far as I'm concerned. That's just what works for me though

[DavidKOS]

I have seen mandolins with these extended fretboards almost all the way down to the picking zone. I do not see a real need for them with most playing but if I am wrong please correct me.


I've never understood them either and I've never seen anyone play up there. I know I'm going to be corrected because I'm sure somebody does....but what percentage of players?


This was the most recent discussion; some of the classical guys chimed in per its usage in that genre

Florida Use It Or Lose It (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?122179-Florida-Use-It-Or-Lose-It)

I'm one of those "classical guys". Yes, us non-Bluegrass mandolin players that play a lot of Italian and Classical mandolin actually DO use the notes on the fingerboard extension. Yes we are in the minority.

Yes, many folks with F style mandolins remove or alter the extension as they often pick "sul tasto" or near the fingerboard all the time with rather large thick picks.

But the F mandolin was designed as a classical mandolin, hence the extended fingerboard.

[Dave Hanson]

I have heard it said that Dave Appollon used every fret on his mandolin and he did play Gibsons with the extended fretboard.

Dave H

[Astro]

What is a scooped fret board?

Scooped means the wood of the extension has been carved down about half thickness and there are no frets. So it is not intended to be fretted over. You can strum over it (often the area of the "sweet spot" tonewise) and it doesn't buzz. You can fret the upper notes with no fear of the extension causing buzzing. It keeps the traditional look of the extension without the problems. Many come with scooped extensions from the builder. Personally, I like the appearance of the scooped extension AND the no extension. I have a mando with each. The traditional full thickness extension (AKA "florida") with frets often does get in my way but there are plenty of players that prefer having it.

[bbaker2050]

I do not like them-even if they're scooped.

[pheffernan]

Any info or advice to help me understand why some mandolins have this long of a fret board would be appreciated.

The iconic F5 mandolin had one. Some players prefer to honor tradition. Others depart from tradition in favor of improved playability. As in your truss rod thread, it seems to me that you're looking for definitive answers to relative questions. The only way that you'll know whether a truss rod is needed or an extension is a nuisance is ultimately through firsthand experience.

[Barry Wilson]

Floridectomy major here

[George R. Lane]

Long live the dreaded black tongue. :)):)):))

[LongBlackVeil]

I have heard it said that Dave Appollon used every fret on his mandolin and he did play Gibsons with the extended fretboard.

Dave H

Yeah but he cheated! He usually Removed one fret

[Beanzy]

I wouldn't buy anything other than a 'hacker' level mandolin without a fully functional one giving me at least 24 frets.
It would be like buying a Ferrari & putting it on a leash so it can never go far from the garage.

[onassis]

I like the look of them, but I've scooped mine to avoid the click. Personally, you could remove every fret above #17 and it wouldn't affect my playing one whit.

[DavidKOS]

I like the look of them, but I've scooped mine to avoid the click. Personally, you could remove every fret above #17 and it wouldn't affect my playing one whit.

That's cool - but you certainly are not playing certain genres of music where those notes are welcome.;) However most music is played in the range you mention.

I love reading the reasoning and choices you guys with the F style mandolins make. Being in the minority of non-F players myself, I really have no idea what everyone else does and it's interesting to find out.

[Dave Hanson]

Yeah but he cheated! He usually Removed one fret
Forgot about that.

Dave H

[onassis]

I love reading the reasoning and choices you guys with the F style mandolins make. Being in the minority of non-F players myself, I really have no idea what everyone else does and it's interesting to find out.

:) And I'm on the other side. I like reading about you fellas who play other styles. I always wonder how anyone can get any usable sound out of the E course above the 17th fret, but I guess it probably is a lot easier with a sharp-pointed pick.

[DavidKOS]

:) And I'm on the other side. I like reading about you fellas who play other styles. I always wonder how anyone can get any usable sound out of the E course above the 17th fret, but I guess it probably is a lot easier with a sharp-pointed pick.

The pick shape may have less to do with it than where the "sweet spot" is perceived to be on various instruments and what is considered a "good tone" in different genres.

For me, the "sweet spot" is somewhat closer to the bridge than for many BG players, who play "sul tasto" (near the fingerboard) almost all the time for a warm tone. It's a bit more bell-like tone color well suited to bowlback and European flatback style mandolins.

I often wonder if in a BG situation, the mandolin players have looked for a warmer tone as a contrast to the 5 string Scruggs style banjo, which is very bright and bell-like in tone color, thus the mandolinists play sul tasto.

Add that to the volume needed to be heard over the banjo and fiddle and it's no wonder guys use big picks and have some pick click!

[Tobin]

I often wonder if in a BG situation, the mandolin players have looked for a warmer tone as a contrast to the 5 string Scruggs style banjo, which is very bright and bell-like in tone color, thus the mandolinists play sul tasto.

Add that to the volume needed to be heard over the banjo and fiddle and it's no wonder guys use big picks and have some pick click!
Well, the original bluegrass mandolin player, Bill Monroe, played pretty close to the bridge. Some might even argue that the "real" bluegrass mandolin sound is not a warm tone at all. It is very sharp and tinny like Bill did it. In bluegrass, where the banjo and mandolin would not normally be playing on top of each other, it's OK for them to have similar tone colors. Each instrument gets its own space to play a lead while the others back off.

Playing closer to the fingerboard, or sul tasto if we insist on using classical/Italian terminology, is more of a modern mandolin style in bluegrass. It does have the advantage of more volume, yes, and I think it helps round out the sound of tremolo when played on double-stops. It makes tremolo sound more like a thrumming motor. I think there's also a lot more harmonic response in that range as well (which would make sense if it's in the 24th fret area). It's just an "interesting" sound that provides a sweeter tonal response and takes more advantage of a mandolin's voice in particular situations.

[DavidKOS]

Well, the original bluegrass mandolin player, Bill Monroe, played pretty close to the bridge. Some might even argue that the "real" bluegrass mandolin sound is not a warm tone at all. It is very sharp and tinny like Bill did it.
..........

Playing closer to the fingerboard, or sul tasto if we insist on using classical/Italian terminology, is more of a modern mandolin style in bluegrass. It does have the advantage of more volume, yes, and I think it helps round out the sound of tremolo when played on double-stops. It makes tremolo sound more like a thrumming motor. I think there's also a lot more harmonic response in that range as well (which would make sense if it's in the 24th fret area). It's just an "interesting" sound that provides a sweeter tonal response and takes more advantage of a mandolin's voice in particular situations.

Thanks for an interesting answer.

Now I know why I like Monroe's sound better than most "modern" players' tone!

[Capt. E]

Am I correct that of those players who actually use the extended E and A strings primarily for high notes on a chord? I have seen a few players (I believe Chris Thile is one) go way way up on the e sting and get a big cheer. It does seem to have its uses.

[red7flag]

When playing banjo. The rule of thumb is closer to the nut, closer to the bridge. Toward the end of the fret board, the hands come together. The intent when up the fretboard is to round out the tone. The mandolin being a little critter, to me sounds a bit brittle down near the bridge, which has its place. Toward the freiboard adds fullness of tone, at least on the mandolin. I really like Tobin's post. He really got it right.

[Stephen Cagle]

My custom Ratliff was built without the extension. Does create pick click! I do like the look but I like the sound more without click, click👍😁

[Jim Hudson]

Very interesting. I play without amplification a lot and use heavy picks and play near the fretboard to get the volume to be heard, but didn't consider it a "modern" mandolin sound until just now. You guys are good! Love the perspectives offered here by all different kinds of mandolinists. We are fortunate to play an instrument with such wide application and "sassy" nature.

[J Mangio]

It's a non issue for me, I pick just passed the last fret of the board that has the Florida.

[Tobin]

Very interesting. I play without amplification a lot and use heavy picks and play near the fretboard to get the volume to be heard, but didn't consider it a "modern" mandolin sound until just now.

Before anyone gets the wrong idea and thinks that this is gospel, I was just using that example to show that playing over the extension area isn't necessarily an across-the-board thing for bluegrass. Part of Monroe's signature sound (aside from playing a Loar) was that he picked very, very close to the bridge. I've never studied the subject in-depth, but I'm led to believe that most mandolin players in that time period did. It was just how it was done in the days of mandolin orchestras and the next few decades. Probably as a result of mandolin methods being based on the classical Italian-styles that David plays. Mandolins were built with those extensions to reach high notes in classical music, and I doubt many people gave it the thought that we give it today. But at any rate, picking close to the bridge was the mandolin sound, and it worked well for Bill.

Were there mandolin players who played further towards the middle of the string length back then? Probably. But it wasn't something that I'm aware of as being taught except for cases where the music called for it (again, classical).

It is the more modern players in the bluegrass world who have taken to playing over the extension, as they strive for a tone that's less twangy. And when I say "modern", I mean the last 30 years or so. I consider it a more modern technique, and a more modern sound, since it's distinctly different than how Bill did it. And let's face it: Bill's playing defined the bluegrass mandolin sound from the start. His early imitators didn't differ much from him in that regard.

But I'm not saying that people necessarily play over the extension to sound modern. Or that playing over the extension can't sound authentic in bluegrass. The modern-versus-original thing was just my attempt to say that not all bluegrass players pick over the extension.

[Ky Slim]

I'm one of those "classical guys". Yes, us non-Bluegrass mandolin players that play a lot of Italian and Classical mandolin actually DO use the notes on the fingerboard extension. Yes we are in the minority.


Questions for DavidKOS or anyone who might know and thanks ahead of time:

When notes are played on the extensions are the strings pressed down and fretted with a fingernail? And, Does the mandolin you are holding in your Avatar have the same number of frets as an extended F style? Are the frets on the extension of that mandolin as small (narrow) as those on an F - Style?

Thanks

[LongBlackVeil]

I think one benefit of playing over the fretboard is that the strings have a bit more give up there. The closer you get to the bridge the more stiff they are. For me at least, it makes faster tunes more difficult, though I'm sure I could get used to it

I've always thought a mark of a fine mandolin was one that sounded clear up the neck at all frets

[DataNick]

...Part of Monroe's signature sound (aside from playing a Loar) was that he picked very, very close to the bridge... But at any rate, picking close to the bridge was the mandolin sound, and it worked well for Bill...


Tobin,

I don't mean to be a contrarian here but I can't remember personally seeing any footage of Bill Monroe picking close to the bridge. In fact, IIRC, almost all the video I've seen has him picking right over the florida as in the video below. Check out the closeup of him starting at 59 seconds in.

I also would describe Monroe's sound as varying in tonal color slightly based on picks, strings he was using, etc. but distinctive to him. Sometimes he can sound very full and mid-rangey, other times sharp. But AFAIK, his picking at least from the video footage I've seen was closer to the fingerboard than not.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrivWXrZgJs

[DavidKOS]

Questions for DavidKOS or anyone who might know and thanks ahead of time:

When notes are played on the extensions are the strings pressed down and fretted with a fingernail? And, Does the mandolin you are holding in your Avatar have the same number of frets as an extended F style? Are the frets on the extension of that mandolin as small (narrow) as those on an F - Style?

Thanks

I have used a fingernail for hitting notes, even used the fingernail passed the fingerboard for a special effect!

Normally though those notes are just fretted with the fingertip like any others on the neck.

My 2nd mandolin, a Suzuki Calace-style copy, had the full fretting.

And no, the Vietnamese mandolin in my avatar does not have all the frets (same size as usual frets), nor do my others, which is why I have a new mandolin on order with over 27 frets.


I think one benefit of playing over the fretboard is that the strings have a bit more give up there. The closer you get to the bridge the more stiff they are. For me at least, it makes faster tunes more difficult, though I'm sure I could get used to it

I've always thought a mark of a fine mandolin was one that sounded clear up the neck at all frets

I think that the stiffer string section nearer the bridge is actually easier to play fast on, as the strings do not move around in as wide an arc and it's easier to pick with smaller movements.

[DavidKOS]

Tobin,

I don't mean to be a contrarian here but I can't remember personally seeing any footage of Bill Monroe picking close to the bridge. In fact, IIRC, almost all the video I've seen has him picking right over the florida as in the video below.]

he seems to be right over the extension much of the time - but no pick click!

[Tobin]

Tobin,

I don't mean to be a contrarian here but I can't remember personally seeing any footage of Bill Monroe picking close to the bridge.

Watch what he does at the 1:20 mark in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB26S7cj3n0). When he gets going fast, he moves in towards the bridge. Here's a screenshot:

146178

It's funny, actually. In many cases, he does play over the extension. Although with his fingers in the way, it often looks like he's well over the extension, when his actual pick is just barely over the tip of it. But the fact that he liked to choke up on the bridge when he needed speed is always something that jumped out at me when watching him play.

I notice myself drifting towards the bridge sometimes when I get going fast. It is indeed easier to pick faster there, since the strings deflect less. But my tone goes to hell.

[DavidKOS]

I think that the stiffer string section nearer the bridge is actually easier to play fast on, as the strings do not move around in as wide an arc and it's easier to pick with smaller movements.


Watch what he does at the 1:20 mark in this video. When he gets going fast, he moves in towards the bridge. ....... the fact that he liked to choke up on the bridge when he needed speed is always something that jumped out at me when watching him play.

I notice myself drifting towards the bridge sometimes when I get going fast. It is indeed easier to pick faster there, since the strings deflect less. But my tone goes to hell.

No, the tone doesn't go to hell, it merely changes!

Interesting you noticed that detail of BM's playing. Very cool observation!