View Full Version : Using Cello as a stand up bass ?
Astro
Mar-27-2016, 10:19am
Crazy question but I like the size and look of cello and can find one at a reasonable price. I dont want to play cello as it will just take too long for this old dog to learn that new trick. And I mostly play folk rock/americana indie stuff. But is there any reason why one couldn't just do bass runs on it to take the place of a stand up bass ? Yeah, I'm looking for an excuse to buy one. Please talk me out of it.
Don Grieser
Mar-27-2016, 10:23am
Cello works great for Norman and Nancy Blake in their music. I love that sound.
pheffernan
Mar-27-2016, 11:00am
It works for Joe Kwon in the Avett Brothers!
foldedpath
Mar-27-2016, 12:19pm
I've seen a cello used (both plucked and bowed) in a few non-Bluegrass settings like fiddler Natalie MacMaster's band, and the Alasdair Fraser and Natalie Hass duo. It sounded great in that context.
I think the big question is whether you're planning on using standard cello CGDA tuning or EADG like a bass? Cello tuning will require learning cello-specific fingering with lots of hand motion to cover the fifths at that scale length.
If you tune it in EADG you'll have fingering closer to an electric bass guitar, but you'll probably need heavier than standard cello gauge strings so they're not floppy when tuned down. The acoustic volume won't be as loud as a standup bass either. You're just not pushing as much air with a shorter scale, smaller soundboard, and smaller airmass in the body at that lower pitch range. It should be fine in EADG for playing alone at home, or if amplified at a gig. I'm not sure it would work well in an acoustic jam, where you need to be heard without amplification.
Every so often I think about picking up an inexpensive cello just to have in the house. I never followed through, because I don't want to learn cello fingering, and the idea of tuning it down in fourths seemed like a poor compromise. I did once own a 3/4 double bass years ago, just as a fun instrument to have around the house (I'm not a bass player). There's nothing like that deep boom and growl you get when pulling off the side of a fat string. So for me it's a full bass or nuthin'. Your mileage may
vary.
Did I talk you out of it yet? :)
MikeEdgerton
Mar-27-2016, 12:23pm
I've owned one for years, it's never been out of the bag.
JeffD
Mar-27-2016, 12:35pm
We have three cello players in our musical community. One or more of them can be counted on be in attendance at any given party or jam session. Its wonderful
Dave Hicks
Mar-27-2016, 12:44pm
Rhiannon Giddens had a standup bass and a standup cello in her band as of last fall.
D.H.
foldedpath
Mar-27-2016, 12:45pm
We have three cello players in our musical community. One or more of them can be counted on be in attendance at any given party or jam session. Its wonderful
But they're "real" cello players, right? Cello trained, cello fingering. I don't think that's what the OP is interested in (I could be wrong).
JH Murray
Mar-27-2016, 12:49pm
The cello is sometimes called a 'church bass' as it often played the bass part in church orchestras.
JeffD
Mar-27-2016, 12:49pm
Well one is a real orchestral cello player. The other two just kind of picked it up, extrapolating from fiddle, or whatever.
I think if a real cello player spends an hour with you, and you have a good ear, you are off to the races.
Charlieshafer
Mar-27-2016, 1:34pm
Yeah, I'm one of the "real" cello players, all potty trained, or whatever that training was. Yes, you can, and the way to get a little more bang for the buck if you go pizzicato, or plucked, is to take advantage of the shorter scale length by trying to move quickly and pluck some chords. So that's a plus. The downers? Lack of that big low end, and sheer volume. If you're in a band that plays on stage, you'll need some close-micing. Gotta run out, but I have some decent videos of great pizzicato cello kicking around. The current master is Rushed Eggleston from his Crooked Still days, and then on his own. Natalie Haas, mentioned earlier,mis working on some strange high-speed flying pizzicato stuff, nit quite yet ready for prime time (she says, but it already sounds great). Anyway, short story is it's a lot more versatile than a bass just due to scale length and string thickness, but the low end is lacking big time, along with volume.
T.D.Nydn
Mar-27-2016, 1:39pm
How can you say anything negative about a cello? They are really on pitch with the human ear, like a guitar is,,they are used in rock and are really good for metal also....
Charlieshafer
Mar-27-2016, 1:53pm
Here's a quick one while everyone's slow to leave here...
Ben Sollee, using it in a way you might not think of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg_Yxgk8Tsg
I don't think a cello and a church bass are the same instrument. The church bass, as I understand it, is usually somewhat unique nonstandard size folkie instrument, sometimes called an American bass viol, made and used in New England in the 1800s. Compared to a cello, which has a standard shape and size, or at least more standard than a folkie instrument.
Charlieshafer
Mar-27-2016, 1:55pm
Still waiting, so here's this, at a workshop for our youth symphony:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWgTQGIg_sU
allenhopkins
Mar-27-2016, 1:58pm
Cello used to be a common bass voice in country dance bands in our area. back in the 19th century. Before the electric bass guitar came on in the 1950's, cello had obvious advantages in terms of portability, cost, etc. From what I can tell, these "band" celli were usually played with a bow, rather than pizzicato. However, they were generally relegated to the role of playing what we would call "bass parts," not used melodically -- root notes of chords, simple runs, that kinda thing.
I used to work with an electric bassist that doubled on cello, played it on a few songs -- generally simple bass lines, sometimes harmonies. It's a nice sound, IHMO.
Matt Harris
Mar-27-2016, 2:35pm
Nathaniel Smith (a real cellist) fills the bass role for Sarah Jarosz. Sounds great. He does a great variety of things, but this one is a good example of bass-like playing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzapgZI5SEc
Phil Vinyard
Mar-27-2016, 2:36pm
I'm another real potty trained 'cellist. My take on it is a 'cello is no substitute for a bass, and a bass is no substitute for a 'cello. Each has it's own contribution. I still have my 'cello but never found it very satisfying in a bluegrass or old time jam. You don't have the contrast because you are in the same pitch range as the guitars, and you don't have near the volume of a bass. That doesn't mean there isn't a place for it in Bluegrass--it's just not going to be a one for one substitute for a bass.
Now, the one real advantage of a 'cello is the tuning is in fifths and the notes lie in the same relationship as a mandolin. It's not hard to switch between the two. Playing a bass tuned in fourths drives me nuts, so I tend to re-tune them in fifths and then I don't have to think about it when I am playing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMcFqihOQFo
foldedpath
Mar-27-2016, 2:41pm
How can you say anything negative about a cello? They are really on pitch with the human ear, like a guitar is,,they are used in rock and are really good for metal also....
I would never say anything negative about a cello, except for the idea of using it to substitute for a standup bass (see thread title) by tuning it down in fourths to the range of a bass. I just don't think that's going to work well without amplification. And a lot of experimenting with expensive string gauges to reach that pitch range. Maybe the OP has something else in mind.
I would never say anything negative about a cello, except for the idea of using it to substitute for a standup bass (see thread title) by tuning it down in fourths to the range of a bass. I just don't think that's going to work well without amplification. And a lot of experimenting with expensive string gauges to reach that pitch range. Maybe the OP has something else in mind.
I had wondered as well if the OP was thinking of tuning down and decided because it was not said, he wasn't. I chose to assume playing it with fingers as a sort of Baritone. That said it is a nice voice to add to a recording , but not enough lower than a Guitar ( 2 whole steps) for me to consider it a Bass replacement. I think an electric bass is still the best inexpensive and portable substitute for an Upright Bass. However I may have gotten CAS just reading this thread.
I have played with a cello player subbing for a bass and it worked well. I also know a jazz bass player who has tuned his bass in 5ths tuning and said he would never go back. He says it so much easier and the rest of the family(cello etc.) is in 5ths. Just another take to confuse the situation. We use 1/4 size or 1/2 size bass to make it easier to carry, it fits in the seat of a car like a person.
Just for clarification, I don't know enough to know what I mean. I guess originally I thought of just using cello tuning and my finger memory on mandolin to try to pluck out some bass lines without bow. But it does look to be an easy conversion to bass tunings, only requiring bass strings and amplification. I was going to have to amplify no matter what so that is not really a concern to me. I was just going to use it to add color to my hack recordings and maybe for novelty effect in our band. I think I would fare better with cello tuning BUT if I converted, then our banjo player (who is an excellent bass man) could jump in on it too when he wanted.
Yeah, mostly I just think its a beautiful instrument. Always wanted one even though I doubt I could ever get good enough on it to play it as intended. I just wondered how hard it would be to pluck out the bass lines and if it would sound good. And there appears to be a nice one for sale locally for pretty cheap.
Beanzy
Mar-27-2016, 4:41pm
Have a listen to Leyla McCalla to see what's possible; https://soundcloud.com/leylamccalla
multidon
Mar-27-2016, 4:57pm
I have heard of this conversion being done, and always wanted to find a cheap cello to try it on. All you have to do, from what I have read, is use Fender 9050L SS flat wound electric bass strings, tuned just like a bass. Full size cello scale length is about 28 inches, so not too far off from a 30 inch short scale bass. You might have to enlarge the nut and bridge grooves and maybe the tuning peg holes. That's it. Those who have tried it report good results.
RustyPickup
Mar-27-2016, 5:04pm
I have played with a cello player subbing for a bass and it worked well. I also know a jazz bass player who has tuned his bass in 5ths tuning and said he would never go back. He says it so much easier and the rest of the family(cello etc.) is in 5ths. Just another take to confuse the situation. We use 1/4 size or 1/2 size bass to make it easier to carry, it fits in the seat of a car like a person.
Interesting post and interesting comments. Just in passing -- and I do not mean to distract from the original post -- but Pops1's comment above about a jazz guy tuning his bass is 5ths is also intriguing ... For a bass, does anyone think you'd need to change string gauges to do so? Or would regular bass strings work (and should we go "up" or "down?" Thanks!
Interesting post and interesting comments. Just in passing -- and I do not mean to distract from the original post -- but Pops1's comment above about a jazz guy tuning his bass is 5ths is also intriguing ... For a bass, does anyone think you'd need to change string gauges to do so? Or would regular bass strings work (and should we go "up" or "down?" Thanks!
Rusty, he was playing in a classical concert with my daughter, and if I remember, and it's a big if, he was tuned like a cello, so dropped to C below the E and he had different gauge strings. I don't remember what it was about his bass that prompted me to talk to him, something he made for an endpin to change the angle for more comfort I believe. Said it took him a year to make the change playing in 5ths, but it was well worth it and he is loving it, it is so much simpler he said.
Franc Homier Lieu
Mar-27-2016, 6:32pm
This is a nice example of cello as bass:
http://youtu.be/4-v1CKP4khE
DavidKOS
Mar-27-2016, 6:43pm
Here's the set of strings for tuning a cello EADG:
http://www.orchestral.daddario.com/OrchestralProductDetail.Page?ActiveID=4495&productid=168&sid=480a744b-fa4f-48aa-b271-656133362a27
Helicore Fourths-Tuning Cello 4/4 Scale Medium Tension Set
Best of luck.
JH Murray
Mar-27-2016, 7:09pm
Sorry if this derails the conversation, but in the Frank Fairfield video, what is Tom Marion playing? It looks like an octave mandolin or is it a mandocello, and I think it said Godin on the headstock?
Jim Garber
Mar-27-2016, 7:50pm
The Plank Road String Band, a hot old time string band from years ago had an excellent cello player, James Michael Kott, who played it mostly plucked. You can hear them here (http://fieldrecorder.bandcamp.com/album/frc-306-the-plank-road-string-band-recordings-from-the-collection-of-al-tharp).
Dennis Havlena loves to tinker with all sorts of instruments. He converted a 1/2-sized cello to bass tuning (http://dennishavlena.com/cellobas.htm) using Fender flatwound elecrtic bass strings.
Finally, this guy put Aquila Thundergut uke bass strings on a 1/2-size cello:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7B_M4b4oOY
peliot
Mar-28-2016, 12:36pm
Another (former) cellist here - I don't think a cello makes a useful substitute for a bass. Not to say you shouldn't play it, particularly if you can add some bowed sustained notes to back up the mando leads (if you don't have a fiddle). But the reason I say it isn't a useful subsitute is because of the range of the instrument. A cello sits right in the same range as a guitar and banjo (the low E on a guitar is two steps above the low C on the cello), so if you are plucking it, I think it will blend in with the guitar or banjo and not really add anything. A real bass is an octave lower which stands out much better because it is the only instrument playing down there and provides that nice oomph.
Charlieshafer
Mar-28-2016, 12:43pm
The Plank Road String Band, a hot old time string band from years ago had an excellent cello player, James Michael Kott, who played it mostly plucked. You can hear them here (http://fieldrecorder.bandcamp.com/album/frc-306-the-plank-road-string-band-recordings-from-the-collection-of-al-tharp).
James Kott, a true original. Thanks for remembering him, Jim. He's Rushed Eggleston's first real hero, and was a key player in the nuttiness down in Galax during those times. He used to play the cello with a strap, while riding a skateboard, busking for change. The tune "Fall On My Knees" from that recording really shows the pizzicato he used, fast, furious, and more than a little wild. A true unsung hero for us odd-ball cello guys, and a general inspiration for those times.
j. condino
Mar-28-2016, 12:53pm
The cello is not a bass, they don't call it a bass, it is never going to be a bass, stop thinking of it as a bass.
Sure, there are a few exceptionally skilled and talented individuals who use one to modestly cover the low end, but for the average musician, you will spend a bunch of $$$ and at best wind up a novelty. Spend the same amount of money and time on a 3/4 upright bass and it will change your life; you'll have more friends than you ever imagined and people you never met will call you up and offer good $$$ for you to gig 3 or 4 times a week, every week of the year. It is the number one thing most average musicians can do to radically increase their visibility and gigging potential. Mandolins are cool, upright basses are a game changer!
DavidKOS
Mar-28-2016, 1:17pm
The cello is not a bass, they don't call it a bass, it is never going to be a bass, stop thinking of it as a bass.
Well the cello does function as a bass in much chamber music. What we call "the bass" is actually a contrabass, playing the same written bass lines as a cello but functioning to double the bassline an octave down - hence the other name "double bass".
Yes a cello does not have the full low end of the contrabass, but it IS a bass instrument.
wiki - "The instrument is a part of the standard orchestra and is the bass voice of the string quartet,"
Then there is the use of the cello as the standard bass (along with keyboard) of the basso continuo.
My son (17) is an outstanding cello player. He also plays viola & violin (classical). He's tried my Fender bass (sorry, not an upright) but can't get over the 4th tuning.
One thing to note (and I hear daily) is that one of these instruments played pizzicato (plucked) will not be a loud as when it is bowed. Can make for some interesting textures but might be louid enough (as others have noted) when strictly played pizzicato.
DavidKOS
Mar-28-2016, 1:26pm
My son (17) is an outstanding cello player. He also plays viola & violin (classical). He's tried my Fender bass (sorry, not an upright) but can't get over the 4th tuning.
.
There are string sets to tune the electric in 5ths.
Miltown
Mar-28-2016, 1:51pm
Have a listen to Leyla McCalla to see what's possible; https://soundcloud.com/leylamccalla
Yes, indeed. Leyla McCalla is amazing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xexRixbxdR0
And the album that song is from is one of my favorites of recent years. I'm eagerly awaiting her next one.
SincereCorgi
Mar-28-2016, 2:07pm
I agree with the people who think cello sounds great in small string groups- the bowed cello parts on the early Cheap Suits recordings, for instance, have got that scrape and whumpf you don't get from a traditional plucked bass. It will get you stern looks from the genre police, though. You'll get more mileage out of an actual bass.
DavidKOS
Mar-28-2016, 2:19pm
I agree with the people who think cello sounds great in small string groups- the bowed cello parts on the early Cheap Suits recordings, for instance, have got that scrape and whumpf you don't get from a traditional plucked bass. It will get you stern looks from the genre police, though. You'll get more mileage out of an actual bass.
You should hear Stu Brotman "scrape and woof" on the string bass, usually in Klezmer.
Jim Garber
Mar-28-2016, 2:42pm
I actually played bass in an old time string band years ago in which one of the fiddlers was a pro cellist. We played in string band contest in New York and one of the tunes we played was a blues/raggy one called "Jackson Stomp." For that one I switched over to banjo mandolin and the fiddler played bass lines on her cello.
Here is the original:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-BqHli5sc8
BTW the East Texas Serenaders actually used a cellist as the bassist in their band back in the 1920s or so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4gJDd5Pc4w
fatt-dad
Mar-28-2016, 4:51pm
Interesting thread!
f-d
Franc Homier Lieu
Mar-28-2016, 5:19pm
Sorry if this derails the conversation, but in the Frank Fairfield video, what is Tom Marion playing? It looks like an octave mandolin or is it a mandocello, and I think it said Godin on the headstock?
It does say Godin! And when viewing the video on full screen, I can see Godin through the f-hole as well. It looks like a Godin 5th Avenue archtop that has been converted to, well I guess it could be an octave. Could also be a mandocello. The lowest course has pretty heavy strings on it.
The script on the headstock does not look like the standard Godin script. Looks like whoever converted the guitar decided to keep the Godin name.
He makes that Eastman sound pretty durn good later in the session.
Richard Eskite
Mar-29-2016, 9:24am
One of my favorite duos is Natalie Haas and Alistair Frazier. If she isn't fulfilling the bass role, she'll do till a real bass player comes along.
Elliot Luber
Mar-29-2016, 7:44pm
I knew the late Percy Heath, who played a smaller Cello-like bass later in his life when he suffered from arthritis.
SincereCorgi
Mar-30-2016, 4:11pm
You should hear Stu Brotman "scrape and woof" on the string bass, usually in Klezmer.
I looooove bowed bass, but the tone of a cello is a little sweeter. I wish both were a lot more common, but they're never coming back from endangered status. It's just so, so much easier and cheaper to learn a plucked electric bass.
Charlieshafer
Mar-30-2016, 7:46pm
I looooove bowed bass, but the tone of a cello is a little sweeter. I wish both were a lot more common, but they're never coming back from endangered status. It's just so, so much easier and cheaper to learn a plucked electric bass.
Fortunately, that's not always the case. Jayme Stone's bassist, Joe Phillips, is sensational. Mr. Sun has Ethan Jodziewicz is pretty darn amazing as well, Punch Bros. Paul Kowert, are all incredibly talented, and all use a lot of bow. The common denominator is that they're all young, and refugees from classical conservatory training. I know Joe and Paul will play classical whenever they get the chance. I bet you'll see more and more young killer bassists, just as Crooked Still's Rushed Eggleston or Tristan Clarridge got a lot of younger conservatory cellists thinking about new ways to look at the instrument they were playing.
Charlieshafer
Mar-30-2016, 7:54pm
They're more likely to be playing this sort of stuff, though
Haas Kowert Tice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM6egg_YJ0Q
catmandu2
Mar-30-2016, 8:15pm
For pure, corporeal music, bass is it - a very powerful instument, yet capable of subtlety as well (particularly played arco). I love to listen to Joelle Leandre's excursions, in particular. . Very emotional and expressive.
One night I was bull-fiddling to Bonnie Rideout's "Harlaw" compilation, and (that night) was inspired to begin transcribing/rendering many of the pieces (on bass). I love the pure, somber tone of the instrument rendering this beautiful, plaintive, yet powerful music.
My favorite insttument.
SincereCorgi
Mar-31-2016, 1:10pm
I bet you'll see more and more young killer bassists, just as Crooked Still's Rushed Eggleston or Tristan Clarridge got a lot of younger conservatory cellists thinking about new ways to look at the instrument they were playing...
One can hope–#it's weird how, like, there are two late night talk shows with tubas in the band now, and I never would have believed that if somebody had prognosticated it fifteen years ago.
Charlieshafer
Apr-02-2016, 10:59am
Or, just in case you wanted to get into bluegrass cello bowing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2M0_Rc8Qr8
Johnny60
Apr-02-2016, 11:37am
The Ronstadt Generations band (Michael J Ronstadt and his two sons) use a cello. One of the sons plays cello in every song, ranging from bowed to plucked. He's a great player and even does fiddle tunes on it!
zedmando
Apr-03-2016, 1:08am
Ever heard a cello & flute do a duet?
that can sound very cool...
John Adrihan
Apr-03-2016, 7:39am
I might look into this.... a used cello 100 bucks, some rubber strings, a very portable thumper to bring to a jam instead of lugging the big bass around. beats a wash tub any how.
John L
Apr-03-2016, 8:07am
Check out Oyster Band. Not sure what tuning he uses, but Chopper uses a cello as bass. Standing up with a long peg.
foldedpath
Apr-03-2016, 10:54am
I might look into this.... a used cello 100 bucks, some rubber strings, a very portable thumper to bring to a jam instead of lugging the big bass around. beats a wash tub any how.
Well, if you tune it down to EADG with rubber strings, we're back to the problem of whether anyone will hear it in a typical acoustic jam, especially if it's a cheap cello with a plywood top. It's just not designed to be driven that way, at that pitch.
All the situations mentioned in this thread where a cello is used in a band are amplified. That's where it can work, although personally I still think a cello is best played as a cello (both pizz and arco) in a setting like the Alasdair Fraser and Natalie Haas duo.
If you want an acoustic bass sound at a jam without lugging a big bass around, and if you can get the group to accept amplification, I think a better bet is a Kala U-Bass -- one of those little ukulele things with rubber strings and a pickup. Then get a compact battery-powered bass amp. That combo is more portable than carrying a cello in a gig bag. And it will sound like a bass.
:)
Richard Eskite
Apr-03-2016, 11:01am
They're more likely to be playing this sort of stuff, though
Haas Kowert Tice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM6egg_YJ0Q
That's Natalie's sister, Brittany. She's pretty great, too. I saw her and Darol Anger playing together in Cape Breton a couple of years ago. Natalie was there, too.
EdHanrahan
Apr-03-2016, 11:41am
Michael G. Ronstadt (Linda R's nephew) plays cello both as bass, on country/rockabilly stuff, as well as bowed... beautifully. IIRC, he went to Julliard for... you know, that training. I've seen him live twice in VERY small venues, but couldn't find a bass-ish YouTube to add here.
He plays in a folkish duo, and with his dad in Ronstadt Generations. We've spoken but I assumed that he was in standard cello tuning.
ombudsman
Apr-11-2016, 3:02pm
Interesting post and interesting comments. Just in passing -- and I do not mean to distract from the original post -- but Pops1's comment above about a jazz guy tuning his bass is 5ths is also intriguing ... For a bass, does anyone think you'd need to change string gauges to do so? Or would regular bass strings work (and should we go "up" or "down?" Thanks!
The range is greater and different strings are required. There are several variations of fifths tuning, covered on this page. Red Mitchell was a great jazz bassist who switched to this tuning and used it for a lot of his career.
http://www.lemurmusic.com/Spirocore-Bass-Red-Mitchell-5ths-Tuning/products/320/
ombudsman
Apr-11-2016, 3:07pm
As others have said, cello as the bass instrument in a group can be very cool. Ron Carter, Ray Brown, and Fred Katz have made a lot of good jazz recordings using cello. It will never sound like an acoustic double bass, not just because of the lows but also because of the difference in midrange and attack. I suppose a tricked out cello could get close to a dark, not too natural, obviously amplified upright bass sound, but it would be a lot of trouble and expense for something unlikely to beat a U bass.
Charlieshafer
Apr-11-2016, 6:56pm
To use the cello as a substitute bass properly, you really do need to use the bow to get the snap and growl that you can get with a double bass without the bow. It's just a quieter instrument. Something like this is a wild and wooly example, but it gives you an idea of what I'm talking about. More genteel versions would be by Natalie Haas, Tristan Clarridge and Maria DiMeglio of Harpeth Rising.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlyaXJvaT2w
Perry Babasin
Apr-12-2016, 3:51pm
My Dad was a pioneer of Jazz Pizzicato cello in the 50s and he did tune to fourths... This is a fun old TV show from the LA area. The intro is very silly but the band is pretty cool! PS, I think Chris Thile took stage-face lessons from my Dad!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEg1Hw4tzXc