Screwed Ceccherini bowlback mando

[plinkey]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-rare-vintage-Italian-bowlback-CECCERINI-mandolin-cased-in-playing-order/162003009266?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D20140328180637%26meid%3Db726878700354aabb51 c9d0813cbe12a%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D10%2 6sd%3D322039278844

That brass screw Ceccherini mandolin model (eBay UK) is perhaps not common for the maker, but here and there one can see them. I am not aware of any other vintage bb mando builders who would have decorated their instruments with a multitude of screws. Therefore, I guess that feature might also authenticate the maker. In addition, the tuning machines are commonly Ceccherini, and their faceplates do not conceal completely the headstock tuner cutouts which is a flaw seen in his mandolins provisioned with that particular tuner model.

The bridge is probably not original to the mandolin, and a couple of top sound vents is also an odd feature for Ceccherini, as far as I can tell. It is possible the maker did a little one-off experiment with those, or perhaps later on in the mandolin's life someone though they would enhance the tone by adding those ventholes in the Calace style. In retrospect, the soundboard cracks in the area of the bridge and the sound vents would suggest that cutting those holes might have not been the best idea. I also believe that Ceccherini would have provisioned the ventholes with finishing grommets, if he did those holes himself, although over the years such grommets often loosen and become lost.

Even those folks who are fans of Ceccherini may not find this particular screwed up mandolin very appealing to their eye, yet collectors are often attracted to uncommon features, therefore that mandolin might end up selling for a pretty penny.

144519

144520

[brunello97]

It may be that the bridge can be adjusted to bring the action to a playable level. Enough material there to work with. I hope it is not the neck that is out. Strange patterns of seams / repaired cracks on the top. Almost looks like a rectangular piece of material was spliced in. The price is still in the attractive range, but I wouldn't venture much more for this one without a good hands-on inspection.

Mick

[derbex]

Those are a bit mad, a steam punk mandolin from the steam age! I would quite like it, but the 'slight bow to the neck' put me off, well that and the fact that I don't need another mandolin.

[plinkey]

[QUOTE=derbex;1480347] I would quite like it, but the 'slight bow to the neck' put me off,

If the fretboard (FB) relief is truly "slight", then fret dressing or a partial refret can solve that. If it's more than "slight", then shim would do it. Either way, your countryman Tavy can address those problems very nicely.;)
I'd worry more about the health of the neck-body joint. Because of that "typical" (sic) Ceccherini brass flange over the joint, one can not see any small/moderate separations in it if they were present.

In addition, one would have to ensure that the soundboard at the bridge/sound vents has not caved in. Those kinds of problems may require removal of the top, and that now starts to get expensive.

Another issue is that one of the tuner pegs shafts (a trunnion really) protruding thru the faceplate looks like it was damaged or splayed. A defective tuner of that type poses a serious restoration problem, and our good friend Tavy, who has developed advance expertise in the Ceccherini tuning machines, knows that better than most.;)

[Bruce Clausen]

Interesting label. Ser. no. is 3001: first instrument of a new series? And Alban Voigt's name has been crossed out and replaced with a rubber stamp that must have read Beare & Son.

Along with the screws, the fingerboard extension is unusual on these.

[plinkey]

Interesting label. Ser. no. is 3001: first instrument of a new series?

Good point, entirely possible that this particular mandolin was a progenitor of the screwed up line of instruments. If that could be proven to be the case, the mandolin value would probably increase some.

Beare and Son's London shop goes back to 1865. Could have they taken over Voigt's business and stock ? I do not know when Voigt ceased their operations.

[Tavy]

[QUOTE=derbex;1480347] I would quite like it, but the 'slight bow to the neck' put me off,

If the fretboard (FB) relief is truly "slight", then fret dressing or a partial refret can solve that. If it's more than "slight", then shim would do it. Either way, your countryman Tavy can address those problems very nicely.;)

Heavens, I might have to start paying royalties to plinkey at this rate :)

Actually, I was rather hoping no one would notice this one so I could pick it up as a curiosity for 50p - it's sort of interesting, but I can't say I particularly like it that much. The serial number is interesting... I've seen numbers in the 2000's before, but not that high. It does certainly look like the first of a new series, but how you would prove that is another thing!

[plinkey]

[QUOTE=plinkey;1480359]

Heavens, I might have to start paying royalties to plinkey at this rate :)

Actually, I was rather hoping no one would notice this one so I could pick it up as a curiosity for 50p - it's sort of interesting, but I can't say I particularly like it that much.

John, do not worry about royalties now....some day you'll treat me to your locally brewed suds.;)
BTW, that mandolin is not my cuppa tea either, besides, I am not particularly fond of the Ceccherini "system" to start with.

I see the same thing as Brunello: a wide soundboard splice starting just south of the sound vents, and then going all the way to the tail.

[brunello97]

This has me scratching my head. I'm not sure we haven't seen this one before. I have a couple dozen Ceccherinis in my files but the only one that has the boiler plate screws also has a similar pattern of top cracks. Same unlined holes, FB inlays and scratchplate design fwtw. I've got a shot of the label, but unfortunately can't read the SN on it.

Our friend, Martin, keeps a good eye on these so I hope he'll join the conversation.

Some sublimely beautiful Ceccherinis out there to my eye, but I won't distract the discussion of this one by posting them here now.

Mick

[plinkey]

I'll be......that looks like the same mandolin sans the bridge ?????

[Jim Garber]

I have that one in my files also. Sold on eBay December of 2014. That would make sense since it was restored and then put up for sale again.

BTW Marc Silber has this same model with the small brass screws on his web site here (http://www.marcsilbermusic.com/inventory/db-pages/desc.asp?instid=1886). He has had it for sale for a few years now, at least since 2007 at a high price.

[Bruce Clausen]

Thanks for that, Jim. Marc's looks very much like the ebay mandolin, but is numbered 2331. So 3001 isn't a new model; maybe the numbering restarted at 3000 when Beare took over the line.

In between came the fanciest Ceccherini of them all, no. 2459:

144686144685

It's been posted for years about three-quarters of the way down this page, with a detailed description:

http://www.music-treasures.com/mandolin.htm

Seems no longer to be for sale, though.

The ebay auction has now ended. Did anyone here get it?

[tonydxn]

Yes, I got it. I'll report back when it arrives (unless it's too embarrassing).

[LadysSolo]

Wow! I love the back on #2459, but the front is a bit excessive for my tastes.

[derbex]

At the risk of Tavy blushing, he's just cleaned up and sorted out the intonation on my Ceccherini and I am very pleased with the result, between his wizardry and the new Dogal strings it just sings :)

[tonydxn]

So, the screwed-up Ceccherini has arrived. My first impression on taking it out of its case was, it's a very heavy mandolin. It turns out that the head and neck are not the usual rosewood-veneered pine job. They are a single piece of solid rosewood, which I have never seen before. I don't know if that's because it's rare, or because usually I deal with more modest instruments. I was very impressed with the sound of the Ceccherini on Tavy's web site - this one sounds similar - very rich which lots of sustain.
Issues:
One tuner cog has been replaced with one that doesn't quite fit properly. It's a bit rickety but it's working, so I'm not going to worry about it too much.
The neck bow - putting a short straightedge over frets 1 to 9 there is a gap in the middle of 0.3mm; the neck joint also seems to have moved a little but feels solid with no visible cracks or gaps. The bow over the whole length of the fretboard is 0.75mm - a pity, but liveable with - certainly not bad enough to start messing about with the fabric of the instrument. Anyway, I should be able to improve the situation. Judging by the wear in the fingerboard (wood), the mandolin has been played a lot. The frets have been dressed, probably more than once, but the zero fret has been left alone, with the result that the strings are now 1mm above fret 1. I reckon if I file down the zero fret so that the strings are where they should be, it will make the mandolin much more playable without having to lower the bridge much or causing any problems at the top end of the fretboard.
Soundboard: still intact - it has not been patched. It has some fine cracks, which are a bit narrow to splint, so someone has filled them with glue. The line running across the soundboard by the holes is not a join, it's a crease or indentation, presumably caused by the bridge somehow (what was it doing there?) I can't see if the cracks have been cleated because of the second soundboard (which goes right down to the end block) but I don't suppose for one moment that they have been. There is a little sinking near those two holes, but not too much. (About those holes - there was a Puglisi on eBay recently that had similar holes. They are also very common on German mandolins from the 20's and 30's. They were supposed to improve the bass notes. Maybe some Italian makers tried them but never ran with it.)
The bridge is horrible - a really rough nasty one that would disgrace even the cheapest mandolin.

I didn't buy this mandolin to play it myself (I am not much of a player). I bought it to sort out its issues and sell it on. Jobs I will have to do: lower zero fret, cleat the cracks (which I think I should be able to do with the aid of magnets) and make a new bridge which looks like one of Ceccherini's.

Thanks for all your comments, references and background info. Most useful for me. If anyone has any questions, I'll do my best to answer.

[Martin Jonas]

So, the screwed-up Ceccherini has arrived. My first impression on taking it out of its case was, it's a very heavy mandolin. It turns out that the head and neck are not the usual rosewood-veneered pine job. They are a single piece of solid rosewood, which I have never seen before.

That's unusual I would say -- I have owned and seen a fair number of Ceccherinis although none of the higher levels of decoration. The "normal" ones are distinctly light instruments which is part of why they are so resonant.

Martin

[brunello97]

That's unusual I would say.....Martin

That's what I know. Solid rosewood neck? Unusual to my experience as well.

I'd love to see some more, in-depth photos of the instrument, Tony, once you get settled and start working with it.

Mick

[plinkey]

Derbex, that is good to know.........Tavy sure knows his stuff.:mandosmiley:
Incidentally, how far did you have to move the bridge "south" in order to get the G course to intone right, and were the string tensioning hooks possibly impeding such adjustment ?
Have you been able to retain the original metal nut/0-fret on your Ceccherini mandolin ?

[Tavy]

Derbex, that is good to know.........Tavy sure knows his stuff.:mandosmiley:
Incidentally, how far did you have to move the bridge "south" in order to get the G course to intone right, and were the string tensioning hooks possibly impeding such adjustment ?
Have you been able to retain the original metal nut/0-fret on your Ceccherini mandolin ?

I spent more time than I care to admit trying to get the metal nut to intonate, in the end I had to admit defeat and put in a bone one. Derbex's instrument is very similar to that one of yours I ended up doing the same. Others, as you know I've been able to get the metal nut sorted - I thought I had that sussed out well enough by now, but it appears not all Ceccherini are created equally in this respect.

With regard to the bridge, it needed to go some way south of the mark on the top in order to intonate reasonably well, it didn't clash with the string-tensioners though as there was a reasonable distance between them. So different from yours in that respect.

One other trait it shared with yours - the strings are right down on the headstock face, limiting how much you can reasonably move the nut forward without causing other issues. As ever it's a case of finding the best compromise you can.

[plinkey]

As ever it's a case of finding the best compromise you can.

Indeed. Then, when we also consider the difficulties we've had with the Ceccherini tuning machines, one could understand why my enthusiasm towards that maker is pretty low at this point.

[derbex]

One of my tuners has become very stiff, I think something must have been dislodged in the post as I don't remember it being that bad.

[plinkey]

Tavy will help you with that problem.
In the interim, I'd suggest that you do not force the tuner if you feel very high resistance to it. I suppose you'd need to remove the tuning machine and try to identify what the cause of binding is. Alas, if you have the Ceccherini's simple/common encased tuners like in the screwed up mandolin in the picture above, they do not lend themselves to disassembly and easy servicing.

[Tavy]

One of my tuners has become very stiff, I think something must have been dislodged in the post as I don't remember it being that bad.

Oh :(

The tuners weren't ever removed (or unstrung for that matter here) here so they should be the same, however:

* That doesn't preclude the possibility of some dirt getting somewhere unfortunate, in which case removing them and giving them a good squirt with your favourite PTFE based lube should fix things.
* Sometimes tuners can get into "unfortunate" juxtapositions of worm and pinion positions which are stiffer than all other positions... not normally an issue unless that stiff spot happens to coincide with "in tune".


Alas, if you have the Ceccherini's simple/common encased tuners like in the screwed up mandolin in the picture above, they do not lend themselves to disassembly and easy servicing.

At least some small amount of disassembly is possible with them - generally I would much rather have those enclosed tuners than the usual Neapolitan open-back and rivet-together ones, which are basically junk if there's a problem :(

[houseworker]

The serial number may simply be by chance. Ceccherini mandolin #304 had a (printed) label showing Beare & Sons of 34 Rathbone Place, London, England and Toronto, Canada as the sole wholesale agents

[plinkey]

Oh :(

At least some small amount of disassembly is possible with them - generally I would much rather have those enclosed tuners than the usual Neapolitan open-back and rivet-together ones, which are basically junk if there's a problem :(

As far as I can remember now, a problem I had with my first Ceccherini, which was provisioned with their "standard" tuning machines, was that the pegs could not be removed because the peg cog trunnion end was splayed into the retaining plate. That, in addition to the rather universal practice of not being able to remove the tuner worm gear shafts from the tuner face plate, meant that even the access for cleaning was hindered, let alone being able to attempt some gear adjustments.

As far as Ceccherini top of the line 8-in-1 tuning machine goes, you know the problems there. Yes, one could take it apart, but putting it back together was a problem because of seldom seen ill-fitting/misaligned tuner components. Moreover, the tuning button shafts binding in their bearing blocks was yet another serious defect.

[tonydxn]

Here are some more shots of the screwy Ceccherini ~o)

[plinkey]

Here are some more shots of the screwy Ceccherini ~o)

Your screwed up Ceccherini seems to be in a very good condition.:)

[tonydxn]

I decided to count the screws, just for the record. There are 197, including the ones which are actually working for their living. You can see why Umberto did not do this with all his mandolins.