Recognize this as a logo?

[Interstellar cartographer]

Hello,

I am wondering if anyone knows if this inlay on the headstock of a roundback mandolin is a logo, or if it just decorative. I am trying to determine what maker or brand it might be.

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Thanks!

[MikeEdgerton]

It's a decoration. Post a picture of the entire mandolin, there is a chance that someone might be able to identify who made it.

[FLATROCK HILL]

usb port?

[Interstellar cartographer]

It's a decoration. Post a picture of the entire mandolin, there is a chance that someone might be able to identify who made it.

I've got some other pics of details, unfortunately I don't have any images of the whole thing right now. Let me know if these help, they show some of the inlay and the pickguard art detail.

Any ideas of what brand this might be?

Thanks for your help!
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[MikeEdgerton]

All of that trim was sold through jobbers to many builders. Without seeing the whole thing the best guess is that it was built by Lyon and Healy in Chicago because Lyon and Healy built a ton of these. Beyond that, if you've got a picture of the whole thing there's a chance someone will be able to identify it.

I can tell you that tailpiece was made by Waverly.

[Interstellar cartographer]

Ive got some pics of the whole mandolin now. Any ideas on the brand? Lyon and Healy?144578144579

[Mark Gunter]

Very nice looking bowlback you have there.

[Interstellar cartographer]

Thanks Mark! I'm trying to learn a little more about it, like who the maker would be and maybe even the model.

[Mark Gunter]

Yes, and Mike Edgerton has been responding to this thread, he and several others here know a lot about vintage mandolins. I can't tell you anything much about it except that it looks like a nice one. Generally speaking, more ribs in back signify better quality; that and the nice appointments all around make for a very attractive bowlback in my book as long as it is playable with a good action. Even the best of these things is rarely worth a great deal of money, but a nice one makes for an enjoyable instrument, depending what type of music you wish to play on it. Maybe someone knowledgeable about the makers will give you some more info, patience is a virtue they say :)

[MikeEdgerton]

I was hoping Jim Garber would jump in with a catalog page.

[brunello97]

Very nice looking bowlback you have there.

I know that's right.

A lot of things about this seem quite unique, from the edge and soundhole binding to the compensated bridge to the fb inlay to the body shape itself. Barring a ideal catalog page, I'm not feeling the L+H vibe out of this one, particularly from the bowl shape itself, but they are the obvious suspects. The headstock is reminiscent of that used by L+H for their Washburns, etc.

It is a very good looking mandolin....

Mick

[randfixer]

Whoa, it looks like I just bought the same mandolin. It looks identical. Spruce top, rosewood neck and it looks like mahogany bowl and a Ebony fret board. The "tattoo" looks the same. Here are my pics. Let me know what you find out please. 144637

Now that I have looked closer they may be the same builder but different model. Yours has more ribs and a wider nicer inlay. Also, the headstock is shaped differently. Anyway, if anyone knows the maker or identity please let me know. Thanks. The "newbie"

[Mark Gunter]

Hi randfixer, welcome to the forum! I don't see the similarities, other than both being neapolitan style mandolins. Believe me, there were a lot more of your mandolin's style made, than the one the OP has there. I own one very similar to yours, have no idea who made it, mine is a MarkStern brand marketed by the Joseph Stern company from the very late 1800's to very early 1900's. It's a run-of-the-mill bowlback that I have, but I like it a lot.

[Interstellar cartographer]

Thanks guys! Would love to know more about this instrument. I picked it up not too long ago, and don't know anything about it. Other than old, it would be great to get an idea of what years it could have been built. I looked inside it, as with many other stringed instruments you can get see dates, serial numbers, etc. in this it just looks like a dark or black mesh or cloth. Whoever had it before either took good care of it, or had it set up to play it. The strings are fairly new and it plays well all the way up the neck. Nice action. The only issue I'm seeing in it is the missing inlay piece on the fretboard. Any ideas where I might find a replacement piece?

[fentonjames]

randfixer, you don't have the same mandolin as intersteller cartographer. count the number of pieces that makes up the bowl. yours is nice, but ic's is nicer. the more pieces, the nicer the mandolin (generally).

[Mark Gunter]

The only issue I'm seeing in it is the missing inlay piece on the fretboard. Any ideas where I might find a replacement piece?

All I saw missing is one dot from the twelfth fret. Search for mother-of-pearl fret markers. You can find numerous sources, including the popular luthier supply companies like www.stewmac.com

Check this page: http://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and_Supplies/Inlay_and_Pearl/
Determine the size you need, and then I'd suggest ordering several (they're inexpensive) so that when you get them you can try to choose one that fits in best with the old ones already on the instrument. These are products of nature, and vary in color a bit.

[Interstellar cartographer]

Thanks for the link, Mark, I'll check it out. Appreciate the help!

[MikeEdgerton]

OK, I'm going to jump in. I think the OP's mandolin is a Harmony made in Chicago. I was hoping to see a catalog page. You probably won't find a replacement piece of pearl but you will find the blanks and tools so you could cut one out. Try making a tracing using a paper and a pencil then cut a piece of cardboard to use as a template to trace it on some abalam or pearl. If you're not comfortable doing the pearl cutting get a cardboard template made and there are a few folks you can send it to to get it cut.

[Interstellar cartographer]

Thanks Mike! So it's a Harmony, or most likely a Harmony? What attributes make you think so? Any idea it's age? And thanks for the advice on the inlay. I think I could cut a piece myself. Is there a special glue you would recommend to install it? Or any other tips? Sorry for all the questions, but I really appreciate the help.

[MikeEdgerton]

Thanks Mike! So it's a Harmony, or most likely a Harmony? What attributes make you think so? Any idea it's age? And thanks for the advice on the inlay. I think I could cut a piece myself. Is there a special glue you would recommend to install it? Or any other tips? Sorry for all the questions, but I really appreciate the help.

I suspect your mandolin was built by Harmony because of the top inlay around the sound hole and top. It's very similar to later inlay and binding used on some branded Harmony instruments. The real problem with identifying these unbranded instruments made for the trade by many manufacturers is that they all bought from the same suppliers and jobbers. The tailpiece on your mandolin was made by Waverly. That same tailpiece was manufactured from the early 1900's well into the 1960's, maybe 70's. It was used by every major manufacturer. Harmony is an educated guess and barring a catalog page, it's my guess. Later unbranded instruments were easier to identify because they all adopted their own shapes and features. The age is after 1900 and before 1920.

[MikeEdgerton]

KW9tiZOpupUAs far as doing your own inlay goes there are some sources that will get you pointed in the right direction. Check out this video for starters.

[Interstellar cartographer]

Thanks a lot for the info, Mike and Mark! I really appreciate your understanding on the background on these instruments. And for the tips on inlay work. If this bowl back is roughly 100 years old (if I'm reading that last post correctly) someone cared for it really well.

[MikeEdgerton]

It probably sat in a case in a closet or under a bed. When these appear in really great shape generally they were rarely played.

[Interstellar cartographer]

That's too bad. Someone must have gotten back into playing this one, or at least wanted to have it ready. It's got newish strings, the neck is straight and the action is nice. Reminds me of when my grandfather was getting on in years, he asked me for strings for his violin and bass, so I got them for him and had the bows rehaired. Made him really pleased.

[Jim Garber]

I had a very similar mandolin like the OP's in basket case condition.Someone gave it to me after to had been sat on or dropped. The inlay on the pickguard was wood marquetry. I would also guess L&H due to the shape of the headstock and the shape of the pickguard. OTOH there is nothing conclusive only the guess that it was made for wholesale for stores to put their own label in. No catalog pics of this one.

[Mark Gunter]

Mike, the reason I offered a link to specific stewmac page is that the missing piece of inlay is a fretboard dot - I think it is very likely you can find the dot in correct or very, very close size. ;) At any rate, I've done some of this and that would be my approach first, find a dot in correct size, buy extras, choose one of closest match and glue it in.

To glue it in, many luthiers use many methods: CA glue (super glue), wood glue, hide glue. On such a small dot it doesn't matter much IMO which adhesive you use, as long as it is one you are comfortable with. If the dot varies slightly in size, you can slightly enlarge the hole, or if it is a shade small you can fill any gaps by varying means. There are dozens of tutorials on the internet to help you with this, and there are some really good luthiers here in the builders' section who can advise you.

Finally, you may expect the inlay to be bit proud of the surface and you may need to carefully scrape and sand it after installation. This would be the trickiest part of the process, obviously you wouldn't want to damage or sand a puddle into the fretboard.

Best of luck with your project!

[Mark Gunter]

Oops, it's a diamond shape, sorry :redface:

[Paul Hostetter]

I am trying to determine what maker or brand it might be.

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The headstock shape is quite identical to many seen on Lyon and Healy's higher-end Washburn mandolins from the late 1880s up until around 1912 or so.

http://www.lutherie.net/Washburn.bowlback.style.235.ad.1912.jpg

This is from Hubert Pleisjier's fine Washburn book (http://www.amazon.com/Washburn-Prewar-Instrument-Styles-Pleijsier/dp/157424227X/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1458527857&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=hubert+pleisjier+Washburn).

That type of marquetry is also very evident on the fancier mandolins L&H produced in that same epoch. This one is mine:

http://www.lutherie.net/Washburn.bowlback.1813.jpg

Your little headstock inlay is one of many similar ones that can be seen on mandolins of the period. Not a logo, just a decoration.

[Interstellar cartographer]

Thanks for your post, Jim. Sounds like the overall consensus is that's it's made sometime between 1900 and 1920, most likely in the Chicago area? Could be a Harmony or a L&H and was made to be resold under a store label. Too bad about the similar one you had, Jim, that got crushed. Any chance you've still got it and would part with the piece of inlay I'm missing? Sounds to me like it's already gone though.... But I have to ask, you know....

[Interstellar cartographer]

Thanks for your post and image from the Washburn book, Paul. I think you're right about the headstock shape. It seems near identical and mine also has the metal plate on the back, but mine is plain, no decoration really. Thanks for posting a pic of yours, too! I like the way the fretboard curves and hangs over the sound hole. The trim looks a little different. So does the inlay on the fretboard and the tailpiece. But the bridge looks identical.

[Paul Hostetter]

If you check Pleisjier's book, you'll see there are pages of minor variations on that mandolin, from very plain to very fancy, and they represent only a small part of L&H's ever-changing production over decades.

Because of the compensation, your bridge looks custom made and not identical.

Filling in that little square of pearl at the 12th fret should be extremely simple to do.

[Interstellar cartographer]

Thanks Paul. I see what you are saying now about the bridge. I'll get some inlay from Stewmac and replace that missing piece.

This might be a "in the eye of the beholder" type question, but what would a value range for a playable mandolin like this one be? I was thinking somewhere around $400. Am I thinking correctly for this model?

[MikeEdgerton]

Nice bowlbacks fail to sell weekly on eBay for much less than that unfortunately. If you could get that much for it do a happy dance.

[Interstellar cartographer]

Nice bowlbacks fail to sell weekly on eBay for much less than that unfortunately. If you could get that much for it do a happy dance.

I hear that, Mike. But I wouldn't want to sell it on EBay. I was asking more about the value of the instrument, not an auction price.

[MikeEdgerton]

The selling price is the value. It's not going to be worth more than it will sell for. eBay is the real time market place. To think it's worth more than they sell for is to ignore reality. Unfortunately very few bowlbacks bring higher prices. There are a few branded models that will bring higher prices.

[randfixer]

Hi randfixer, welcome to the forum! I don't see the similarities, other than both being neapolitan style mandolins. Believe me, there were a lot more of your mandolin's style made, than the one the OP has there. I own one very similar to yours, have no idea who made it, mine is a MarkStern brand marketed by the Joseph Stern company from the very late 1800's to very early 1900's. It's a run-of-the-mill bowlback that I have, but I like it a lot. Thanks Mark for welcoming me. Yes, I did more research on the bowl back mandolin you saw posted by me. Lot of them out there. I cleaned her up, polished the brass tuners, everything was there and in great condition. Wow! What a nice mellow sound. Just what I'm looking for. I'm a flat pick style guitarist by training but I've always wanted to try a Mandolin. Got a cheap one that didn't hold my interest too long, though I did pick up some training. Almost couldn't put this one down today. I noticed your videos, great job playing. I'll post one real soon when I get my scales located better. I have a loop pedal for my acoustic that I just found out is not working though new and I was going to jam to a backup track. So now I have to post a solo and I'm not that complete yet, though close. Most of what I want to do is follow my own turnarounds which I compose on the guitar so they will just be basic G,C,and D runs. Look for a video soon. Thanks again for having me, all you folks. Actually, I can be found at "Yamaha Folk" a public group on Facebook. Later...

[Mark Gunter]

Hello again randfixer, thank you for sharing and you are very welcome! I invite you to join the newbies group here, we can continue a discussion there - we're pretty off-topic for this particular thread, but if you will introduce yourself to the general topics forum or to the newbies social group, I know you will get a very big welcome here. Thanks again for sharing.

[MikeEdgerton]

I wish the second picture in this (https://reverb.com/news/take-a-photo-tour-of-the-1904-harmony-instrument-factory?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=rn151022_content-harmonytour&_aid=newsletter) tour was a little clearer.

[Paul Hostetter]

I wish the second picture in this (https://reverb.com/news/take-a-photo-tour-of-the-1904-harmony-instrument-factory?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=rn151022_content-harmonytour&_aid=newsletter) tour was a little clearer.

Check your regular email, Mike.

[MikeEdgerton]

That is clearer, although I still can't get it as large as I'd like. The headstocks on the mandolins under the bench look familiar :)

[MikeEdgerton]

By the way, I still suspect it's a Harmony. That back plate shape on the headstock is the same as a known Supertone. I know Harmony built a V shaped headstock and this plate matches that. The L&H examples in Hubert's book are different as far as I can see and the picture posted of the Harmony factory in the link above appears to show a similar headstock shape on the mandolins under construction. Like any other unbranded bowlback it's largely conjecture when trying to identify them. You kind of long for the OS inlaid on the pickguard.

[EdHanrahan]

Just a possibly-faulty observation:
It's difficult to be sure, but the wood grain of the OP's abutting "barrel staves" suggest that there are only half as many sections as they appear to be. That is, each actual section has an inlay down the middle making it look like twice as many sections, maybe 25 instead of an actual 13 or so. On the good side, the whole back, unlike some, seems to be sanded round so it's a rather classy execution of the illusion. But still a nice-looking instrument!

[Jess L.]

Just a possibly-faulty observation:
It's difficult to be sure, but the wood grain of the OP's abutting "barrel staves" suggest that there are only half as many sections as they appear to be. That is, each actual section has an inlay down the middle making it look like twice as many sections, maybe 25 instead of an actual 13 or so. ...

Good call, it does look that way.


... On the good side, the whole back, unlike some, seems to be sanded round so it's a rather classy execution of the illusion. But still a nice-looking instrument!

Agree :)

[Paul Hostetter]

Just a possibly-faulty observation:
It's difficult to be sure, but the wood grain of the OP's abutting "barrel staves" suggest that there are only half as many sections as they appear to be. That is, each actual section has an inlay down the middle making it look like twice as many sections, maybe 25 instead of an actual 13 or so.

You mean this?:

http://www.lutherie.net/washburn.bowlback.staves.jpg

Not the case, though I see why you think so. I've seen too many mandolins like this, and know that each stave is separate. The color match between some of the pairs is accidental. They just picked up the next one off the pile and put it on the form—this was a production shop, after all. Assembling and gluing up a simple bowl would be much more difficult to do if they'd done it as you suspect, and getting a smooth curve would also be much more difficult. Peel the paper off the inside one and you'll see what I mean.