A simple plea to all mando-sellers

[mcgroup53]

I am but a simple man, a man of taste and elegance without the means to acquire all that I desire. I devour mandolin ads and descriptions across the spectrum of professional and amateur sellers, all too often finding these bereft of essential information.

Henceforth, I call upon the mando vendors of the world to conform to a few invariable descriptors when describing an instrument for sale.

What species of spruce (or other tone woods) is used in the top?
What species of maple (or other tone woods) is used in the back and sides?
What is the width of the nut?
Is the fingerboard flat or radiused?
What size/gauge frets have been used on the fingerboard?
Of what composition are these frets?
Has the instrument a varnish or lacquer finish?
What modifications or repairs have been imposed on the instrument?
Describe in plain terms whether the instrument is loud or soft, warm or dry, deep or piercing?

These, I submit are the bare minimum. All too often, one or more of these descriptors are lacking in the seller's ad. And that create a serious disconnect between buyer and seller. We cannot always have a firsthand examination of an instrument before buying. But at least the seller could avoid the frippery of poetic language and subjective evaluation and stick to simple, fundamental observations about the instrument in question, right?

Anything I've missed here, guys?

[mrmando]

Mandolin owners frequently don't know a lot of these things.

[F-2 Dave]

Good luck.

[Pete Braccio]

Species of wood, composition and size of frets, and a universal description of sound quality? I don't think that most high end builders have the first two items and the last one is completely subjective.

[David Lewis]

I am but a simple man, a man of taste and elegance without the means to acquire all that I desire. I devour mandolin ads and descriptions across the spectrum of professional and amateur sellers, all too often finding these bereft of essential information. Henceforth, I call upon the mando vendors of the world to conform to a few invariable descriptors when describing an instrument for sale. What species of spruce (or other tone woods) is used in the top?


re mine? It's spruce. The other ones mahogany. That's all I know.
What species of maple (or other tone woods) is used in the back and sides? [/Quote]
See above

What is the width of the nut? On the website

Is the fingerboard flat or radiused? What size/gauge frets have been used on the fingerboard?
No idea

Of what composition are these frets? Has the instrument a varnish or lacquer finish?


Erm



What modifications or repairs have been imposed on the instrument?

New bridge!


Describe in plain terms whether the instrument is loud or soft, warm or dry, deep or piercing?

Erm

These, I submit are the bare minimum. All too often, one or more of these descriptors are lacking in the seller's ad. And that create a serious disconnect between buyer and seller. We cannot always have a firsthand examination of an instrument before buying. But at least the seller could avoid the frippery of poetic language and subjective evaluation and stick to simple, fundamental observations about the instrument in question, right? Anything I've missed here, guys?[/QUOTE]

How much is it?

[Emmett Marshall]

This is why I like to get a buyer/seller on the telephone with one another every time I purchase or sell a mandolin. In fact, I won't ever buy a mandolin from someone who won't speak with me and answer all my questions on the telephone. It's also a whole lot easier, faster, and more efficient than email.

[ukrobbiej]

Haven't the foggiest about my Weber Yellowstone octave- couldn't tell you whether it was Adirondack or Sitka. As for the species of maple- are you serious? Composition of frets?? Really!!! As for description of sound (a detailed one no less) who was it said that talking about music is like tasting architecture. Or something like that!!

Robbie

[nickster60]

My Weber is spruce and maple, from where and what kind I have no clue. It has a raduised finger board and has nice frets, how big and what kind I don't know. I do know I like the way it sounds. There are two schools of musicians, one plays it likes it and doesn't give much thought beyond, it is right for them. The other is concerned with every detail of materials and construction. You may miss out on a great instrument because it didn't have the details you were looking for. Who has picked up an instument that you expected to be dog and in fact it was a gem.

[Steve Ostrander]

Anything I've missed here, guys?

Asking price.

[MikeEdgerton]

What size/gauge frets have been used on the fingerboard?
Of what composition are these frets?

I'm pretty sure that most of us can't tell you that. I mean, if they tell you it's the best sounding mandolin they ever heard and it plays like butter, what else does one really need to know? :cool:

[AlanN]

I'm pretty sure that most of us can't tell you that. I mean, if they tell you it's the best sounding mandolin they ever heard and it plays like butter, what else does one really need to know? :cool:

that it peels paint
that it is a banjo-killer
that everyone who plays it loves it
that the sound keeps on coming, never breaks up

[sunburst]

...if they tell you it's the best sounding mandolin they ever heard and it plays like butter, what else does one really need to know?

Organic? Sweet cream or salted?

[Kevin Stueve]

I am but a simple man, a man of taste and elegance without the means to acquire all that I desire. I devour mandolin ads and descriptions across the spectrum of professional and amateur sellers, all too often finding these bereft of essential information.

Henceforth, I call upon the mando vendors of the world to conform to a few invariable descriptors when describing an instrument for sale.

What species of spruce (or other tone woods) is used in the top?
What species of maple (or other tone woods) is used in the back and sides?
What is the width of the nut?
Is the fingerboard flat or radiused?
What size/gauge frets have been used on the fingerboard?
Of what composition are these frets?
Has the instrument a varnish or lacquer finish?
What modifications or repairs have been imposed on the instrument?
Describe in plain terms whether the instrument is loud or soft, warm or dry, deep or piercing?

These, I submit are the bare minimum. All too often, one or more of these descriptors are lacking in the seller's ad. And that create a serious disconnect between buyer and seller. We cannot always have a firsthand examination of an instrument before buying. But at least the seller could avoid the frippery of poetic language and subjective evaluation and stick to simple, fundamental observations about the instrument in question, right?

Anything I've missed here, guys?

PRICE.
most frustrating thing in the world is a mando ad without a price.

[Rush Burkhardt]

Are the top, back and sides solid or laminate?
:popcorn:

[gtani7]

Anything I've missed here, guys?

You could also describe what pictures you want, and sound clips/videos. For pictures, 6 or 8 standard shots/angles of the instrument that capture the true color as best as you can, and recording, well, it would be reasonable to list strings and picks used and recommend using a decent quality condensor/ribbon/dynamic mike in a large room with not too many hard surfaces, e.g. audio technica at2020, rode NT-1a but the seller is going to use whatever they have, and compress/EQ/reverb it to sound "good" to the seller's ears.

i think the most important is to put as much info/pix/sound/video into the ad as you can, with (text) URL links for youtube/soundcloud or imgur/flickr photo album or whatever.

But there's sellers that try and provide all that info, especially for higher quality instruments, and i think most makers try to provide it, and there's sellers that don't

[Tobin]

I see there being a difference between a builder or retailer selling a new instrument, and a player selling a used instrument. I would expect a vendor or builder to list things like fret size and type, or grade/species of wood. But it's unrealistic for an average player to know all these details if they can't pull it off of the manufacturer's website.

And then, of course, these details may be important for higher-end models or custom models, where they aren't really going to be that important for lower-end mandolins. I guess it really comes down to a seller knowing what they are selling and who they are selling to, in order to determine what level of detail should be supplied. More information is obviously better, but I wouldn't fault a regular guy for not knowing what his frets are made of when he's selling a low-end The Loar model or something.

[Emmett Marshall]

I'm a smoker. (yes, yes, I know). And I made the mistake of not telling a couple buyers that a set of headphones and a mandolin case that I sold came from a home where cigarettes, cigars, pipes, etc had been used and thoroughly enjoyed by the occupants. As a result of my habits, I can not smell tobacco smoke very well. Well guess what? I had to apologize and accept two returns from people who are sensitive to any tobacco odors. This was a big pain for everybody. As a seller, I now make sure that any potential purchaser becomes aware that the item is coming from a smoking environment before any money changes hands. I think putting "comes from a smoking/non-smoking environment" is very helpful information to put in an ad, or to inform in some other way.

[Pittsburgh Bill]

Mandolin owners frequently don't know a lot of these things.

AND: I for one do not know the type of wood on my mandos, I do know if I like the tone of my different toys.But, I have no idea if the types of wood or the build is the primary factor determining tone.
I have one Mandolin with a laminate top that sounds very nice.When purchasing sight unseen ask for an approval period and return it if you don't think it meets your expectations.

[Jeff Mando]

It sure would make online buying easier!

[Capt. E]

Not really a "simple" plea. Difficult questions for many sellers

[Steve Sorensen]

My take on this is, when in doubt, ask. Pick up the phone and have a chat.

Steve

[AlanN]

I go back to something Jethro said (and I paraphrase):

I let the skilled craftsman do his thing. I just play them.

I can tell a prospective buyer the basics, but if they need details like wood species, fret dimensions, etc., I'm done. Heck, I didn't even know tuners my Gil came with, all I know is they work.

[Mike Arakelian]

I have two mandolins - one that was built for me by a known builder, and the other a 25 year old instrument that I recently bought. I can answer all of your questions on the custom mando because I was involved with the builder in selecting woods, frets, tuners, etc., etc. The other mando is no longer made, and I have much less information on specifics to address questions like the ones you posed. I think in some cases you may be asking for too much...IMO.

[Astro]

PRICE
PRICE
PRICE
Then all that other stuff.

[dschonbrun]

I am but a simple man, a man of taste and elegance without the means to acquire all that I desire. I devour mandolin ads and descriptions across the spectrum of professional and amateur sellers, all too often finding these bereft of essential information.

Henceforth, I call upon the mando vendors of the world to conform to a few invariable descriptors when describing an instrument for sale.

What species of spruce (or other tone woods) is used in the top?
What species of maple (or other tone woods) is used in the back and sides?
What is the width of the nut?
Is the fingerboard flat or radiused?
What size/gauge frets have been used on the fingerboard?
Of what composition are these frets?
Has the instrument a varnish or lacquer finish?
What modifications or repairs have been imposed on the instrument?
Describe in plain terms whether the instrument is loud or soft, warm or dry, deep or piercing?

These, I submit are the bare minimum. All too often, one or more of these descriptors are lacking in the seller's ad. And that create a serious disconnect between buyer and seller. We cannot always have a firsthand examination of an instrument before buying. But at least the seller could avoid the frippery of poetic language and subjective evaluation and stick to simple, fundamental observations about the instrument in question, right?

Anything I've missed here, guys?

David, you're a mando-obsessed and educated buyer looking for the same from the seller. It's a reasonable ask... but, not a resaonble expectation. Many pickers don't have the level of knowledge (or desire to know) on luthierie. For those of us who are highly detail oriented, engineering types, that love the details of Engelmann vs Sitka, flat vs. 7" radiused, vs compound... those sellers will include all the detail, but they occupy only a small percentage of the market.

[EdHanrahan]

... a mando-obsessed and educated buyer looking for the same from the seller.

That was my first thought.

Second thought:
- If the seller is mando-obsessed, they'll tell you much of this up front and gladly answer questions on the remainder.
- If they're not mando-obsessed (that is, don't have a clue), that provides possibly useful information on the seller.

(Why am I thinking Rogue and, even though I own one, Rover?)

[Spruce]

I am but a simple man, a man of taste and elegance without the means to acquire all that I desire. I devour mandolin ads and descriptions across the spectrum of professional and amateur sellers, all too often finding these bereft of essential information.

Henceforth, I call upon the mando vendors of the world to conform to a few invariable descriptors when describing an instrument for sale.

What species of spruce (or other tone woods) is used in the top?
What species of maple (or other tone woods) is used in the back and sides?
What is the width of the nut?
Is the fingerboard flat or radiused?
What size/gauge frets have been used on the fingerboard?
Of what composition are these frets?
Has the instrument a varnish or lacquer finish?
What modifications or repairs have been imposed on the instrument?
Describe in plain terms whether the instrument is loud or soft, warm or dry, deep or piercing?

These, I submit are the bare minimum. All too often, one or more of these descriptors are lacking in the seller's ad. And that create a serious disconnect between buyer and seller. We cannot always have a firsthand examination of an instrument before buying. But at least the seller could avoid the frippery of poetic language and subjective evaluation and stick to simple, fundamental observations about the instrument in question, right?

Anything I've missed here, guys?


Knock knock...

[Thumbler]

Frippery, that rub with not enough brass behind it. King Crimson's been charged with it's lyrical perpetration, though I've never heard it. # of strings can be useful.

[guitarpath]

A major mandolin-related pet-peave of mine is when someone advertises a mandolin as having a "spruce top". That tells me nothing. Is it sitka, European, or red spruce? I see this a lot in the mandolin world by both owners and builders. This convention absolutely does not exist in the acoustic guitar realm.

[Mark Wilson]

Anything I've missed here, guys?pictures and a price

[WW52]

A major mandolin-related pet-peave of mine is when someone advertises a mandolin as having a "spruce top". That tells me nothing. Is it sitka, European, or red spruce? I see this a lot in the mandolin world by both owners and builders. This convention absolutely does not exist in the acoustic guitar realm.

I've seen and heard quite a few discussions and debates regarding Sitka, red spruce, and Engleman guitar tops. Do an internet search on Sitka vs. Adirondack guitar tops.

[sunburst]

I've seen and heard quite a few discussions and debates regarding Sitka, red spruce, and Engleman guitar tops.

Me too...sigh...
As far as I'm concerned, "spruce top" should be enough info. I understand the whole marketing aspect of touting different species of spruce, and I realize that many people love to discus and argue the supposed characteristics of different spruce species, but the work of the builder is far more important to the sound of the instrument. As for the top material itself, the luthier works with the stiffness and density of the wood to get the sound he/she is after (after gaining enough experience to be able to exert some level of control over the sound). Perhaps sellers should disclose the specific gravity (density) and Young's modulus (stiffness) of the top wood rather than the species of spruce. That would be much better and more specific information.

As for the OP, as much as I have been entertained by reading past catalog descriptions from the late Stan Jay, I feel that some of his imitators can sure make it difficult for a potential buyer to discern any real information about an instrument for sale! Clear and concise can be the best thing sometimes. What info to state clearly and concisely? Just the basics, it seems to me. Not everyone wants the same details (like spruce species and fret material!). That can be covered when the potential buyer asks questions.

[WW52]

I am but a simple man, a man of taste and elegance without the means to acquire all that I desire. I devour mandolin ads and descriptions across the spectrum of professional and amateur sellers, all too often finding these bereft of essential information.

Henceforth, I call upon the mando vendors of the world to conform to a few invariable descriptors when describing an instrument for sale.

What species of spruce (or other tone woods) is used in the top?
What species of maple (or other tone woods) is used in the back and sides?
What is the width of the nut?
Is the fingerboard flat or radiused?
What size/gauge frets have been used on the fingerboard?
Of what composition are these frets?
Has the instrument a varnish or lacquer finish?
What modifications or repairs have been imposed on the instrument?
Describe in plain terms whether the instrument is loud or soft, warm or dry, deep or piercing?

These, I submit are the bare minimum. All too often, one or more of these descriptors are lacking in the seller's ad. And that create a serious disconnect between buyer and seller. We cannot always have a firsthand examination of an instrument before buying. But at least the seller could avoid the frippery of poetic language and subjective evaluation and stick to simple, fundamental observations about the instrument in question, right?

Anything I've missed here, guys?

Like you, I'd love to have all that info in an ad, but will never get it... and I don't expect it for the reasons others have mentioned. Like most everyone else I get my info from researching any sources I can find, including the café here and other websites, luthiers, books, and I'd even call any builders themselves if I was interested in one of their mandolins. That's the least any self respecting mandolin (or any other instrument) aficionado would be expected to do.

[CES]

I'm pretty sure that most of us can't tell you that. I mean, if they tell you it's the best sounding mandolin they ever heard and it plays like butter, what else does one really need to know? :cool:

That everyone who plays it says it sounds like it should cost thousands of dollars more!

[guitarpath]

I've seen and heard quite a few discussions and debates regarding Sitka, red spruce, and Engleman guitar tops. Do an internet search on Sitka vs. Adirondack guitar tops.

I think you may have misunderstood my point. I am very familiar with the sonic differences between sitka and red spruce in both guitars and mandolins. My point is that mandolin builders and sellers often describe mandolins as having a "spruce top", which is needlessly vague. Why not specify the species of spruce utilized? I certainly would want to know if a mandolin I am considering has a red spruce or sitka spruce top.

This vagueness seems to exist in the mandolin community. Seldom do I see a guitar advertised as having a "spruce top". The specific species is nearly always readily stated.

When I see a mandolin advertised as having a "spruce top", I usually assume that its sitka. This may or may not be accurate.

[Eddie Sheehy]

A pet peave and a pet rock walk into a bar...

[DataNick]

When I started reading this I though the OP was saying: "please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..." LOL!

[AlanN]

I've had some fun with this thread, but all should know that the OP is a well-respected writer, musico-guy and all-around mando boy from way back - Mandolin World News, Mandolin Magazine, others, I'm sure. Whatever his impetus for airing his views, he knows mandolins.

[dschonbrun]

Agree "spruce" is non specific, but it's better than "solid wood".

[WW52]

I think you may have misunderstood my point. I am very familiar with the sonic differences between sitka and red spruce in both guitars and mandolins. My point is that mandolin builders and sellers often describe mandolins as having a "spruce top", which is needlessly vague. Why not specify the species of spruce utilized? I certainly would want to know if a mandolin I am considering has a red spruce or sitka spruce top.
This vagueness seems to exist in the mandolin community. Seldom do I see a guitar advertised as having a "spruce top". The specific species is nearly always readily stated.


Sorry, I see what you're saying and agree, I have seen that numerous times in various places. But you got my curiosity up and a quick perusal of a several mandolin maker's sites ranging from lower (economical) to higher end instruments did specifically list the top woods in most cases:

The Loar: "AAA spruce" top on their LM-700 and "solid spruce" on others.
Eastman: listed "solid spruce" on lower models and Adirondack on their 814, 815 and 915 models
Kentucky: "finest American spruce" on the KM-1000 Master F; Adirondack on their KM-1050 Master F
Weber: Sitka or Red Spruce were listed, depending on the model.
Collings: Englemann or Adirondack.
Makers such as Ellis, Heiden, and Kimble listed all the woods they used.

I recall reading in a thread here a while back that the unknown spruce species used in the tops of some Asian mandolins were possibly a local Asian species of spruce utilized because of its convenience --or something to that extent.

[George R. Lane]

I am but a simple man, a man of taste and elegance without the means to acquire all that I desire. I devour mandolin ads and descriptions across the spectrum of professional and amateur sellers, all too often finding these bereft of essential information.

Henceforth, I call upon the mando vendors of the world to conform to a few invariable descriptors when describing an instrument for sale.

What species of spruce (or other tone woods) is used in the top?
What species of maple (or other tone woods) is used in the back and sides?
What is the width of the nut?
Is the fingerboard flat or radiused?
What size/gauge frets have been used on the fingerboard?
Of what composition are these frets?
Has the instrument a varnish or lacquer finish?
What modifications or repairs have been imposed on the instrument?
Describe in plain terms whether the instrument is loud or soft, warm or dry, deep or piercing?

These, I submit are the bare minimum. All too often, one or more of these descriptors are lacking in the seller's ad. And that create a serious disconnect between buyer and seller. We cannot always have a firsthand examination of an instrument before buying. But at least the seller could avoid the frippery of poetic language and subjective evaluation and stick to simple, fundamental observations about the instrument in question, right?

Anything I've missed here, guys?


My Weber Yellowstone;

Englemann
Quilted Maple
1 3/6"
10" radius
.080
Nickle/silver
Laquer
Replaced tailpiece with a James (gold), Installed ebony tuner buttons. McClung armrest.
Sound is warm with good sustain, but I can make it bark.
You didn't ask for this info. The color is Antique Tobacco burst as is the headstock overlay.

Thats' about it. I know all this because I picked out the woods with Bruce and I asked for a 1 3/16" width, with larger frets. A 10" radius is standard for a Weber.

Oh by the way, she is not for sale.

[LadysSolo]

I have mainly bowlbacks, and have no clue of the wood in the tops or backs, or what the frets are made out of. And if I ever DID know, if I did not write it down I would never remember. In fact, I have the makers in the pockets of the gig bags because otherwise, I might get them mixed up! However, I know how they all sound and what music I prefer to play on each of them. And as I started college (many years ago) as a music major, I am relatively sure I would describe the sound differently than someone without a music background. I agree with the OP that these things might be nice to know, but mainly "Has it been repaired," "Who is the maker" (so I can look up the answers I want,) and "how much and will you negotiate" are the main things I want to know.

[Tom Sanderson]

Everyone has their own style of buying and selling. We are not all looking for the same information. You could list a million things about what you are selling and still not satisfy everyone. If you are interested in something and the information that you want isn't in the ad, a simple email or phone call could answer your questions.

[Spruce]

A major mandolin-related pet-peave of mine is when someone advertises a mandolin as having a "spruce top". That tells me nothing. Is it sitka, European, or red spruce?

Then you would not be comfortable buying just about any vintage mandolin, as ID'ing spruce species in most is a crap shoot...
For instance, I wouldn't bet over 100 bucks on what spruce species is in John Reischman's Loar, and I'm supposed to know...
(Not that John's mando is in the classifieds, but you get the idea)... ;)

It's nice that a lot of modern makers are ID'ing--and making records--of their top wood, finally...


This convention absolutely does not exist in the acoustic guitar realm.

Sure it does...see above.
Yeah, a lot of dealers claim to know what species of spruce is in a 1945 D18, but I certainly wouldn't bet my farm that the info is correct...

The factory info (if it exists) just isn't all that dependable, famously so...

[brunello97]

I'll ask the OP: What species of troll are you?

Mick

[guitarpath]

Sorry, I see what you're saying and agree, I have seen that numerous times in various places. But you got my curiosity up and a quick perusal of a several mandolin maker's sites ranging from lower (economical) to higher end instruments did specifically list the top woods in most cases:

The Loar: "AAA spruce" top on their LM-700 and "solid spruce" on others.
Eastman: listed "solid spruce" on lower models and Adirondack on their 814, 815 and 915 models
Kentucky: "finest American spruce" on the KM-1000 Master F; Adirondack on their KM-1050 Master F
Weber: Sitka or Red Spruce were listed, depending on the model.
Collings: Englemann or Adirondack.
Makers such as Ellis, Heiden, and Kimble listed all the woods they used.

I recall reading in a thread here a while back that the unknown spruce species used in the tops of some Asian mandolins were possibly a local Asian species of spruce utilized because of its convenience --or something to that extent.

What is "AAA Spruce", "solid spruce", and "finest American Spruce"? Sitka? Or perhaps whatever species of spruce they happen to have laying around the shop?

Gibson does this, too. The F-5L Fern is listed as "spruce" on their website.

I realize that this is marketing. I guess the term "sitka spruce" isn't sexy. But it would be, at least, specific.

I like transparency. Simply specify what type of spruce is utilized. It shouldn't be a guessing game.

[Spruce]

Simply specify what type of spruce is utilized. It shouldn't be a guessing game.

But it is...
Sometimes even for the builder...

[WW52]

What is "AAA Spruce", "solid spruce", and "finest American Spruce"? Sitka? Or perhaps whatever species of spruce they happen to have laying around the shop?...
...Simply specify what type of spruce is utilized. It shouldn't be a guessing game.

Well, those examples were from the most popular economical Asian mass production mando makers. That's probably what one should expect at that level. That's why they're economical, and they serve an important purpose. And some of them do sound pretty good... and Eastman & Kentucky did specify Adirondack on their top of the line models. In regards to the higher end instrument makers I looked at they all specified the type of spruce and other woods they used on all their instruments.
I'll leave it to someone else to explain Gibson.

[Spruce]

...and Eastman & Kentucky did specify Adirondack on their top of the line models.

And, as someone who has purchased tons of "red spruce" logs and lumber and sold the wood as "red spruce" to many-a-builder, I wouldn't trust that either...
There are many mandolins out there with "red spruce" that are actually sporting tops made from Picea glauca (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picea_glauca)...
Or something else... ;)



I'll leave it to someone else to explain Gibson.

:sleepy:

[dschonbrun]

What is "AAA Spruce", "solid spruce", and "finest American Spruce"? Sitka? Or perhaps whatever species of spruce they happen to have laying around the shop?

Gibson does this, too. The F-5L Fern is listed as "spruce" on their website.

I realize that this is marketing. I guess the term "sitka spruce" isn't sexy. But it would be, at least, specific.

I like transparency. Simply specify what type of spruce is utilized. It shouldn't be a guessing game.

My impression is that the grading of spruce for soundboards reflects the consistency of the grain, the related density of the wood across/through the board, and how well it represents the species. I'll defer to "Spruce" the woodsman to explain exactly how that's done.

[Spruce]

My impression is that the grading of spruce for soundboards reflects the consistency of the grain, the related density of the wood across/through the board, and how well it represents the species. I'll defer to "Spruce" the woodsman to explain exactly how that's done.

Wrong guy. I don't use the prototypical grading system at all, and don't really believe in it...
For instance, I like wide grain spruce. It would be downgraded in the rest of the tonewood world...
So-ooo, no AAAAAAAAAAAAA's around here, just "good" or "not so good"...

[Jeff Mando]

That everyone who plays it says it sounds like it should cost thousands of dollars more!

Ten or so years ago, I sold a nice little Harmony mandolin on eBay. Light as a feather, extremely low action, played like buttah, etc., --you know, just a wonderful little instrument. I was only asking a couple hundred dollars for it and as part of my sales pitch, I added that you would have to spend a couple thousand dollars to get an instrument that sounded better than this one, considering the aged wood, etc. -- well, you wouldn't believe the hate mail I received -- I guess I mistakenly stepped on some toes in the $200-2000 price point! Anyway, it was a fine little mandolin and I still stand behind my statement and wish I still had it. I'm sure someone couldn't get past the "Harmony" name. Strange, because it means (to me) solid wood throughout and made in the USA. A quick eBay search of vintage Harmony electric guitars shows completed item sales on some models as high as $1500 or more. I guess we're not there yet with the mandolin side of things.....................

[MikeEdgerton]

Honestly the guitars shouldn't be there either.

[TonyP]

Thanks Spruce and Sunburst for your consistent injections of sanity.

I often think having great luthiers and the esteemed Wood Butcher chime in when we get a little too carried away with the minutiae of our babies has a calming effect. That makes it ok for us to say spruce instead of a very possible guesstimate. And the glimpse of the whole idea of luthiers may be equal parts artist and technician and their work reflects that makes variables not only likely but ok.

Add to that great artists like the Dawg that through the Tone Poem albums have shown the musician has a much influence on the sound as the instrument. I believe it was Dawg who was talking to a luthier about building him a mandolin and his response was something like "just make it pretty, I'll make it sound good" or something to that effect.

In deference to the OP I like to know general things too like is it a spruce top, cedar, redwood or? Maple, mahogany, walnut, or? back, sides and neck. Nut width, skinny or wide frets and radiused or flat fretboard. I prefer no varnish. But none of this can tell me what I need to know as far as what it's going to sound like when I play it.

Because of the great info I've gotten here and my heroes having the guts to contradict myths that have propagated over the years. I can judge a mandolin not by its parts but by its whole. And my suspicion that it's not what's on the peghead but the actual work you can see and hear.

[jljohn]

For some reason, this thread reminds me of coin/baseball card/stamp collecting. Maybe some of us should start a grading service where someone could send in their mandolin and we would "grade it" for condition, quality of the parts, and sound (a three-part score is always best in these circumstances), encapsulate it in a sealed acrylic case at 45% humidity, and send it back to the owner who can then sell it at a premium, because it received a 93/100 on the sound grade!

Seriously though, I like to know all the same things that the OP wants to know about an instrument I'm buying, but the reality is that many, if not the vast majority of, people who own an instrument, don't know this stuff. Heck, I couldn't tell you anything about the frets on any of my instruments!

[colorado_al]

If you're not willing to take a risk on the sound of a mandolin, you should buy one locally. Knowing what woods are used, isn't really going to tell you how it sounds. I too like to know the basics like radiused fretboard, etc, but knowing all of the tiny details still does not convey the sound of the instrument. If all of these great mandolins were available to play locally, I would much prefer buying that way. That isn't possible. So, if you want to hear/own a mandolin that you can't get locally, you need to take a risk on buying one from afar. You won't really know what it sounds like until you play it, no matter what wood was used in the kerfing.

[Jim Garber]

I think the Dave's (the OP) listing of specifics is a good guideline for ad copy as many have noted the answers are not always available or known. In my ads I try to describe as best I can what I have. I also provide multiple clear photos uploaded to the web and linked so potential buyers (or even just browsers) can look. The more info you can put in the ad the better it avoids many people trying to contact you with questions. I may make a general comment about tone but that is always subjective.

If I do have a serious buyer I will answer all questions and generally will also suggest (if necessary) a phone call with instrument in hand.

[FLATROCK HILL]

This whole Spruce discussion is interesting. It's always interesting when it comes up, to hear the different opinions from the experts about the real or perceived tonal characteristics and how easy or difficult it is to actually identify the various species.

The real question here though is whether or not a seller should include the type of Spruce in the ad.

If I were selling one of my mandolins, a Northfield for example, I would include the fact that it has an Englemann Spruce top. The reason I would include that detail is not that I personally believe there is any discernible difference in tone from one Spruce to another, or that I could even identify the species of Spruce at gunpoint. The reason would be that it is an 'upgrade', an option offered by the builder that costs more money.

As John Hamlett mentioned in an earlier post, there is an element of marketing involved.

[Jim Garber]

This thread made me realize that i didn't even know what the top of my Brentrup A4C was: I just checked on Larry's registry site and according to Hans it is red spruce and sugar maple back and sides. It is good to know. This may be among the last of my mandolins I would ever sell but it is good to save the description just in case.

Wood species are probably more known for contemporary-built instruments. I mostly have vintage ones and for the most part do not really know or would venture a guess what species the woods are.

[Eddie Sheehy]

At Wintergrass the Eastman booth had an E8D guitar. This is the exact same as an E20D except it has a Sitka top - and sells for a couple of hundred less... The rep said that the E20D has a firmer top (Englemann/Adirondack?) and 'better' response... They look and sound the same to me...

[Bill McCall]

Probably another really good bit of info is the neck size and profile, as it has a huge impact on playability. As for the wood inventory, not so much for me, unless its very nontraditional, because in the end, the sound produced is the most desired quality. But people buy instruments for a variety of reasons, with different expectations for the post purchase situation. ymmv

[WW52]

Probably another really good bit of info is the neck size and profile, as it has a huge impact on playability.

That's something I would want to know as I like to have plenty of room to rest my thumb on the back of the neck and have difficulty with low profile necks and particularly with V necks.

[Petrus]

(Added numbers to your list for replying convenience)



1 What species of spruce (or other tone woods) is used in the top?
2 What species of maple (or other tone woods) is used in the back and sides?
3 What is the width of the nut?
4 Is the fingerboard flat or radiused?
5 What size/gauge frets have been used on the fingerboard?
6 Of what composition are these frets?
7 Has the instrument a varnish or lacquer finish?
8 What modifications or repairs have been imposed on the instrument?
9 Describe in plain terms whether the instrument is loud or soft, warm or dry, deep or piercing?

1-2 Is often hard to discern, especially with vintage instruments. If the owner knows it, great, otherwise, I'd personally be satisfied with just the genus (spruce, maple, etc.)

3 This can be an important one in terms of playing comfort, and is easily measurable, so yes I would want to know this.

4 Ditto. Easily discerned once you know what radiused means, and can affect playing comfort.

5-6 I rarely see fret gauge/composition mentioned in ads and am not overly interested in it. Often you can tell the gauge by a close up photograph. It may be important to some players, certainly.

7 Is very good to know and can be important. I still get confused between the two though. Has it to do with glossy vs. matte?

8 Is really important with any used instrument and especially vintage instruments of high value. That's assuming the current owner is aware of any such modifications, which often they are not especially with instruments nearing 100 years old and up. These instruments have been through a lot of hands sometimes.

However, if the current owner does know, it's pretty incumbent on him to tell you. I'd suggest that not mentioning restorations or modifications that you arguably should have known about could be deceptive and might even be grounds for a refund if the purchaser discovers them on his own. (Ebay, for instance, has that pesky little "item not as described" a.k.a. "get out of jail free" feature which has been much used and abused.)

9 As others have noted, this last point is subjective and so I would not consider it a mandatory point. I'd put it way down the list. In fact, I think this is a good rule of thumb which I use when writing ad copy for my own instrument sales: Objective and important data first, then subjective impressions in a separate paragraph underneath. After that, shipping and insurance matters.


Anything I've missed here, guys?

Oh, they'll let you know (and have.) :grin:

(Yeah, price is an important one.)

[Petrus]

Seriously though, I like to know all the same things that the OP wants to know about an instrument I'm buying, but the reality is that many, if not the vast majority of, people who own an instrument, don't know this stuff. Heck, I couldn't tell you anything about the frets on any of my instruments!

I would hope the owner knows whether his mandolin is oval hole or f-hole (especially when they only upload a photograph of the back of the dang thing.) And what price he wants to get for it. But in some cases even this is asking too much. ("Make me an offer." No, tell me what you want.)

[mcgroup53]

Thanks, AlanN! I now see that I also should have asked what should have been deleted from my list! I guess I assumed too much in terms of mando-nerdness amongst the general mando- selling population.

[mrmando]

I'm happy to provide any info pertaining to things I can measure, find out from the builder, or ascertain by other means. But sometimes, one just doesn't know.