View Full Version : February 18 Celebration
Mandolin Central
Feb-18-2016, 10:04am
With great enthusiasm, I celebrate the Eighteenth of February; that is the date inscribed on the label of many of my very favorite mandolins. Today marks the birth of these mandolins, exactly 92 years ago. Below the date, there is the famous autograph of Lloyd Loar, the legendary acoustic engineer of the Gibson company that designed the style 5 series of instruments. “Lloyd Loar”, in some circles, is a name that bears the same relationship to the world of mandolin as “Stradivarius” does to violin.
I am not alone in celebrating this date. Over the past few decades, mandolins of this birth date have entered into our musical consciousness with exquisite renderings by such brilliant mandolinists as Chris Thile, Mike Marshall, Andy Statman, John Reischman, John Paul Jones, Tom Rozum, Aubrey Haynie, Gene Johnson, Steve Smith, Danny Jones and Frank Wakefield. I often perform on stage and in studio with one of these favorite mandolins. David Grisman’s first Lloyd Loar was of this date, and can be heard on many of his Early Dawg recordings. And in the first generation of F-5 players in the 1920s, it was the mandolin chosen by Walter K. Bayer, Percy V. Lichtenfels, Rybka and even Lloyd Loar himself.
Allow me to back up a little. There was a time when many of us dreamed of getting a mandolin as close as possible in sound, date and serial number to the famous F-5 played by Bill Monroe: July 9, 1923, #73987. This was the Holy Grail of mandolins. What an extraordinary batch of mandolins were signed with that date! As far as getting on stage and directing a banjo-driven Bluegrass band, there are very few mandolins with more presence, focus and penetration as these July 9s. I love this sound and I relish the memories of hearing and seeing Bill Monroe in his prime setting the stage on fire, mastering song, sidemen, audience and that magical mandolin all from center stage.
Looking at this now, in the context of how far we have come musically, there is a wider world of sound coming from the mandolin; where there once were fireworks, there is now also subtlety, nuance and delicacy. Enter the dark mandolins. And here is another thought for this date: Have you ever noticed that the Loars with the light coloring have a bright sound and those with the deep brown, almost black hues have darkness embedded in their song? The February 18s are dark. This is what you get with the best of this batch in color and sound: dark, moody, rich, deep, chocolaty. The expressiveness of these mandolins is a wonder to behold. They have a palette of deepest hue that oozes multidimensionality, and thus fit perfectly with the music of Thile and Marshall. The masters of our current world are leading us to a wider range of sound and composition. These are the contemporary virtuosi that choose the February 18ths.
Next question: How is it that the dark finish gives a dark sound. Is it the finish? In my work over the last half century, I am so fortunate to have had the honor of examining many, many original Loar instruments. And I have not taken that honor lightly, or worn the mantle carelessly. One thing I have clearly noticed is the evolution of the placement of the tone bars over the 2 and 1/2 years that Loar held court in Kalamazoo. Also, possibly an even great honor, I have had the pleasure of meeting many of the first generation of mandolinists that decided to extend deep into their purses to purchase these instruments. However, some chose to not purchase. One recurring theme among them was that, after 400 years of hearing delicate chimes come out of the oval sound hole of a mandolin, the bright, loud, focused fundamental-rich f-hole sound of the early Loars was quite an adjustment. Some insisted it did not fit their music. In response to this, the tone bars began to be shifted and the tap tuning adjusted to create a different sound.
Also, with what I think must have been similar intent, Loar made available the design innovations of his former employers, the Virzi Brothers. Of the 46 F-5s known to bear the February 18, 1924 date, over half were issued with a factory installed “Virzi Tone Producer”. The “Virzi” is a secondary vibrating surface suspended inside the tone chamber of the instrument. In plain words, it is a very thin piece of spruce that is attached by a tripod of wooden feet. Properly installed as to design, the Virzi should have two feet positioned in the center of the underside of the top, attached exactly beneath the outer feet of the base of the bridge. #The single foot is back toward the end pin, positioned in the back center of the underside of the top of the mandolin. As any experienced luthier can tell you, you cannot put a Virzi in a mandolin if the tone bars are spaced for the original 1922 design. The tone bars are too close together and there is no room for the Virzi between them. It is my observation that Gibson did a few Virzi retrofits into F-5s that were originally built for#non-Virzi by simply sticking#it in backwards, putting the two feet of the tripod toward the tailpiece. #However, this defeats the acoustical theory of the#design of the Virzi. To do a#retrofit with the Virzi oriented correctly, one would have to remove the back and reinstall the tone bars (which would be a laborious and invasive process).
Over the years, the February 18 Loars that did not receive a Virzi are more highly regarded. I think part of the reason is that the spacing of the tone bars and the tap tuning had already achieved the darkness of tone, and yet the further added nuance of the Virzi may have appeared, at least to the one sitting behind the mandolin, to have removed a little too much of the focus and power. One other#observation for me is that some of my favorite mandolins from this batch are#Virzi-Removed, including the ones played by Mike Marshall, Frank Wakefield, Early Dawg, Cleveland, and my own favorite, Rybka. #This might be#because the tone bars are further apart than a mandolin designed to be issued without Virzi, thus allowing the bridge area to move more freely, in a#similar way that the design of the#forward X on a Martin guitar creates a sound so alive. Indeed, the Virzi-Removed F-5 has yet another tone color, a slightly different sound.
Enough tech talk! it is my suggestion that now, we get out our mandolins, whatever model, style or year they may be and play a tune in honor of the wonderful innovations of Lloyd Loar and his amazing team of builders there in Kalamazoo; and/or get out our favorite recordings of those who put those mandolins to such good use, and let us all celebrate the 18th of February!
BradKlein
Feb-18-2016, 10:21am
May I remind patrons of the Mandolin Cafe that I OWN the phrase, 'Feb 18 is the new July 9'®, dating back to my historic post of 2012 (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?88891-Thile-Eldridge-and-Pikelny-at-Mandolin-Brothers/page2). Use of this phrase without my permission and payment of appropriate royalty fees will be vigorously prosecuted to the full extent of US and international law.
edit: permission granted
Steve Roberts
Feb-18-2016, 10:43am
Happy 92nd to those wonderful mandolins. May they have many, many more happy birthdays.
Glassweb
Feb-18-2016, 11:20am
some of the best Gibson F5s mandolins i've played were Feb 18th mandolins. and also the worst!
Mandolin Central
Feb-18-2016, 12:20pm
Some photos for you on this day: http://www.mandolincentral.com/rybka
Isn't that the date on John Reischman's Loar? Arguably one of the best?
Ken Waltham
Feb-18-2016, 1:24pm
May I remind patrons of the Mandolin Cafe that I OWN the phrase, 'Feb 18 is the new July 9'®, dating back to my historic post of 2012 (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?88891-Thile-Eldridge-and-Pikelny-at-Mandolin-Brothers/page2). Use of this phrase without my permission and payment of appropriate royalty fees will be vigorously prosecuted to the full extent of US and international law.
edit: permission granted
I for one, actually remember that statement well. I thought it was very astute. And, I am in agreement. :)
Randi Gormley
Feb-18-2016, 3:02pm
Ha! I knew I was ahead of the curve to choose Feb. 18 as a marriage date even before I knew anything about Lloyd Loar! cheers on a great day for mandolins!
Loudloar
Feb-20-2016, 12:47pm
The much maligned object in question. A little worse for wear, having been broken into pieces for removal, then most of the surviving pieces re-glued.
Yes, Reischman's is a Feb. 18, as well as the instrument that formerly contained this Virzi Tone Producer.
Steve
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Properly installed as to design, the Virzi should have two feet positioned in the center of the underside of the top, attached exactly beneath the outer feet of the base of the bridge. #The single foot is back toward the end pin, positioned in the back center of the underside of the top of the mandolin. As any experienced luthier can tell you, you cannot put a Virzi in a mandolin if the tone bars are spaced for the original 1922 design. The tone bars are too close together and there is no room for the Virzi between them. It is my observation that Gibson did a few Virzi retrofits into F-5s that were originally built for#non-Virzi by simply sticking#it in backwards, putting the two feet of the tripod toward the tailpiece. #However, this defeats the acoustical theory of the#design of the Virzi. To do a#retrofit with the Virzi oriented correctly, one would have to remove the back and reinstall the tone bars (which would be a laborious and invasive process).
Over the years, the February 18 Loars that did not receive a Virzi are more highly regarded. I think part of the reason is that the spacing of the tone bars and the tap tuning had already achieved the darkness of tone, and yet the further added nuance of the Virzi may have appeared, at least to the one sitting behind the mandolin, to have removed a little too much of the focus and power. One other#observation for me is that some of my favorite mandolins from this batch are#Virzi-Removed, including the ones played by Mike Marshall, Frank Wakefield, Early Dawg, Cleveland, and my own favorite, Rybka. #This might be#because the tone bars are further apart than a mandolin designed to be issued without Virzi, thus allowing the bridge area to move more freely, in a#similar way that the design of the#forward X on a Martin guitar creates a sound so alive. Indeed, the Virzi-Removed F-5 has yet another tone color, a slightly different sound.
Would you care to elaborate on the position of tonebars? Which ones are those with tonebars closer? I spent good deal of time studying construction details and collecting measurements for my drawings and never heard of such things. There were some oddballs like the first few '22 F-5s with smaller f-holes but they were clearly exceptions during their early evolution.
After reading the original post I just had to get back to my old notes and all the gigs of stuff about Loars I hoarded in last fifteen years and after comparing CT scans, x-rays and some cruder ways of measurements of tonebar positions they all came in the very exactly same position. Including CT of early '23, and one feb. 18th with removed Virzi, and photo of Monroes July 9th open for repairs.
Position of Virzi is always behind the brige, putting the treble side foot 1/4-3/8" behind center of treble bridge foot clearly seen as notches in the original bars.
Hendrik Ahrend
Feb-26-2016, 5:37am
Silence in the woods.
Please allow for my humble 2 cents: Why would you spread those tone bars further out, if you still had to notch them anyway prior to installing the Virzi? And the tone bars of the retro-fit Virzi F5s are by no means notched deeper - AFAIK.
Mandolin Central
Feb-26-2016, 11:37am
Would you care to elaborate on the position of tonebars? Which ones are those with tonebars closer? I spent good deal of time studying construction details and collecting measurements for my drawings and never heard of such things. There were some oddballs like the first few '22 F-5s with smaller f-holes but they were clearly exceptions during their early evolution.
After reading the original post I just had to get back to my old notes and all the gigs of stuff about Loars I hoarded in last fifteen years and after comparing CT scans, x-rays and some cruder ways of measurements of tonebar positions they all came in the very exactly same position. Including CT of early '23, and one feb. 18th with removed Virzi, and photo of Monroes July 9th open for repairs.
Position of Virzi is always behind the brige, putting the treble side foot 1/4-3/8" behind center of treble bridge foot clearly seen as notches in the original bars.
Thank you so much for your insight and your research. It is very interesting to see your observations on this, and it prompted me to look about the shop and get out mandolins to measure. It goes without saying that the larger the measurement number, the closer the tone bar spacing. I was able to locate 5 Loars and 1 fern here this morning, so I set to work. The first two I measured were a pair of F-5s, both dated March 31, 1924, one with Virzi and one without. Both Loars are pristine and original. The Virzi mandolin positions the bass tone bar so that it is 5/8 inch from the bass f-hole (as measured through the large cut-out of the back of the f-hole); 1 3/4 from the back of the treble f-hole. The tone bars show no signs of having been notched. In the March 31 F-5 non-Virzi mandolin, those measurements are 7/8 inch and 2 inches respectively. So I then proceeded with the rest: Feb. 18, 1924 with Virzi removed, 5/8 and 1 3/4, respectively. February 26, 1923, 11/16 and 2 1/16. March 27, 1923, 7/8 and 2 1/16. 1927 post Loar fern, 3/4 and 2 inches.
Interestingly, the ones with the wider spacing have the darker color and darker tone with the exception of the March 31st non-Virzi, which has a dark color and an even balance with tone colors of dark and bright. The ones with the closer tone bar spacing, have that focused, lazer-like quality.
I too have been studying this for quite a number of years and in addition to having CT scans and a log of measurements, I have had the good fortune to have observed several Loars which have had the misfortune to be in pieces. It was legendary luthier Randy Wood, who first pointed out this variation in design to me over 30 years ago, and I have spent many, many hours in his shop in Nashville and then in Savannah examining pre-war F-5s in various stages of repair. And of course, I continue these investigations here in my shop and am always delighted to hear form someone else's experience with these great mandolins.
I think it really takes a lot of different mandolins to be clear about what the intentions were. and we may never be entirely certain. But clearly, I am not alone in having observed variations. I have seen Virzi installations where the tone bars are notched, I have seen them installed with the wider bracing pattern where the notching was not necessary. It is clearly an ASSUMPTION on my part that the correct design was for the unnotched installation, wider tone bars and attachment under the bridge. Just seems to makes sense to me. I have seen the Virzi attached with glue while others have a brad into the underside of the top in addition to the glue. Of all the ones I have measured and examined that did not have the notches, the Virzi was positioned under the feet of the bridge. This also is an assumption on my part, but it seems to make sense that this is the intended design. This is also the way the Virzi is shown attached to the violin top in the 1929 Virzi catalog, which by the way, includes an essay on by Lloyd Loar extolling the virtues of a properly installed tone amplifier.
I am not refuting anyone's observations, I just think that there is more to this than meets the eye. Gibson was a factory and workers did what got them through to the end of the day; thus, the Virzi backward that occurs so often in retrofits (one famous case is the Parrot mandolin). is there a lot of F-5s with exactly the same tone bar placement? Absolutely! Did they all have exactly the same positioning? My observations seem to contradict that. Of the 5 Loars that are in my shop right now there are basically two distinctly different positions and it is my assumption that it is intentional, and tone/Virzi related. I would love to hear more on this, and perhaps one day there will be a catalog of the CT scans on 40 or 50 mandolins for us to examine, and then perhaps we can move from assumption to conclusion! that you again for your valuable insight!
:grin:My lovely wife and her twin brother are February 18th models. :grin:
Converting the raw power(POP)created by increased break angle and f hole/tone bar top plate into a pleasant balance of tone and response has been the devil in the details since they strung up the first prototype F5. While intuition through experience guides most luthiers, plate deflection and tap tuning variations are still evolving with many more minds(builders)focused on understanding cause and effect of subtle changes made to the top and bottom plates, tone bars and wood selection.
I still am of the opinion that the idea of the Virzi is valid for this but poorly executed in fretted instruments. The sloppy construction of the disc appears to have been press cut without any concern for the quality of the cut. The front double foot attachment appears to have been shifted rearward on the disc over the inner cutouts damping it's designed movement. The whole concept looks like it was rushed to production before proper sizing and attachment methods could be ironed out. Today we put them in the same way without questioning why we are not rethinking the design to have more control of it's effect on the mandolins balance and complexity of tone. Since the mass of the bridge is so intimately coupled with the Virzi below it I don't understand why the two are not made together in balanced sets appropriate for the top plate design. The interesting part is that we know these old Virzi's can change the balance of tone from the center mids to the two ends while mellowing it's banjo like POP and Wolf tones. As the separate parts are more coupled into one in mass and purpose perhaps we can get the tonal benefits without the energy damping that is present now.
Thanks for your detailed reply Tony. The f holes may be in slightly different positions on different mandolins or some f holes are wider... and sometimes even slightly different angle of the ruler would change the measurement as much as 1/4". I wonder if you could post a straight frontal shot of some of the mandolins with simple paper gauges stuck into f holes against the tonebars? The gauge would be two same simple rectangles (1/2x4") of cardboard or such, aligned edges and stuck together on last one inch. One leg goes into f hole (without unnecessary bending of the legs) the other stays on top showing exactly where the other is contacting the bar... I would blow the pics up te real size and visualize the differences in photoshop. I could add Monroes F-5 and some other mandolins to the resulting pic.
I believe the discs were not press cut. The tearout you see in the pic was caused by method of removal which was most likely metal hook inserted through endpin hole and hooked onto the virzi soundholes to split it into small pieces to be lifted through f holes.
Mandolin Central
Feb-26-2016, 5:52pm
Great idea. That is basically how I did the measurements, did not think to take photographs. Will try to get around to that. And you are exactly right, that is the way to get out the Virzi, and many have been done that way. Thanks!
Hendrik Ahrend
Feb-26-2016, 6:39pm
Thanks so much, (especially) Tony and Adrian, for your valuable research and interesting clarifications. I really enjoy learning about those Loars. This Café is a wonderful place.
sunburst
Feb-26-2016, 7:18pm
I have a Feb. 18 in the shop for some work now. It got frets for it's birthday, and it needs a few other things. There are apparently no pictures of it in the archive, so If the owner agrees, I may send some to Dan. This one, by the way, is the best sounding Loar I have heard (IMO, of course), when it is whole and well set up.
As for the position of tone bars, it seems to me that distance from top center line is the most accurate measurement for determining consistency or lack thereof. Not an easy measurement to get directly, though.
Loudloar
Feb-29-2016, 7:38pm
By the way, there still is a nail embedded in the top of my mandolin where the single Virzi foot attached. (Is that the secret to being able to "nail' those Monroe licks?)
And both tone bars are notched. I can not understand for the life of me why they didn't just trim the ends of the Virzi feet slightly instead of notching the tone bars. Seems like a lot more trouble.
The notch in the side of the tone bars is very slight, 1/16th of an inch, more or less.
Steve
I'll add some Photoshop mock ups I did few days ago...
There is Monroe's Loar, feb18th with virzi removed (original pic from here: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?24157-Loar-Picture-of-the-Day&p=1098628&viewfull=1#post1098628), one is april23 amd one is pic taken by Henry all resized to full size and compared to my drawings of LLF5. Three of them agree very well, on one the bars seem to be shifted a bit towards treble side, but no more than half of bar thickness.
ANyone else could provide pic like one from Henry (full top view - preferably from some distance - with double cardboard strips inserted at four locations to show position) so I could make more comparisons?
sunburst
Mar-09-2016, 10:56pm
A little hasty looking, I didn't realize until I saw the picture that I had one paper strip toward the center rather than toward the tail block, but this should show the location of the tone bars in this Feb. 18.
144352
A little hasty looking, I didn't realize until I saw the picture that I had one paper strip toward the center rather than toward the tail block, but this should show the location of the tone bars in this Feb. 18.
144352
Thanks John! Could you please post FULL front pic? I use the full outline for alignemnt and resize of pic to fit the drawing. I'll try to use this but there is some possibility of error.
OK, I had few minutes time so here it is (looks pretty close to drawings):
sunburst
Mar-10-2016, 9:51am
Thanks John! Could you please post FULL front pic?
I'll try to do that later. What you can't see in this photo are the clamps that I'm using to re-shape the top where is was starting to collapse next to the tail block. When that process is done, the profile should be back to it's original shape. I can also send you a full resolution pic at that time.
I'll try to do that later. What you can't see in this photo are the clamps that I'm using to re-shape the top where is was starting to collapse next to the tail block. When that process is done, the profile should be back to it's original shape. I can also send you a full resolution pic at that time.
Thanks John.
Is that top so much off quarter as the grain suggests? I wonder how you are working on that collapsing top without opening the box?
sunburst
Mar-10-2016, 5:05pm
One side of the top is much more off quarter than the other side.
I've been working through the f-holes, end pin hole, and open glue joints to set a series of spruce "props" (larger as progress permits), as though they were large sound posts, under the collapse, then clamping the end of the top down to the tail block where the glue joint is open.
Mandolin Central
Oct-18-2016, 7:40pm
Thanks so much, (especially) Tony and Adrian, for your valuable research and interesting clarifications. I really enjoy learning about those Loars. This Café is a wonderful place.
Henry and Adrian, I will be in Italy playing Rybka (Feb 18, 1924) from october 25 thru Nov 18. would love to catch up with you guys if you have any thoughts toward some travel during that time. Catch up with me at Mandolin Central website or my email for more details!
- - - Updated - - -
[QUOTE=HoGo;1478487]Thanks John! Could you please post FULL front pic? I use the full outline for alignemnt and resize of pic to fit the drawing. I'll try to use this but there is some possibility of error.
Henry and Adrian, I will be in Italy playing Rybka (Feb 18, 1924) from october 25 thru Nov 18. would love to catch up with you guys if you have any thoughts toward some travel during that time. Catch up with me at Mandolin Central website or my email for more details!
sunburst
Oct-19-2016, 12:54am
Thanks John! Could you please post FULL front pic? I use the full outline for alignemnt and resize of pic to fit the drawing. I'll try to use this but there is some possibility of error.
Since this thread re-surfaced and reminded me, here are a few more pics. The full face with the bars located by paper strips, the full face strung up following the repair, and a couple of quick before-and-after shots of the damaged area of the top.
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You are scary good, John - where did the crack go? That seems impossible!
Did you do anything to the finish other than clean it?
sunburst
Oct-19-2016, 8:53am
Did you do anything to the finish other than clean it?
Thanks, Clark. Yes, a little French polish touch-up to the finish. Well, actually more than a little touch-up, but I tried to restrict it to the area covered by the tailpiece, and tried to make it match the wear condition of the surrounding finish.
Timbofood
Oct-20-2016, 8:43am
John, seeing that reminded me of what a clock maker said when he was doing a repair to my family tall case clock (200 years old)
As he worked on the piece he said softly to the clock:"I don't even want YOU to know I was here!" The statement was touching to hear. He said ordinarily he just doesn't want the people to know where the repair was, he had to make the repair piece to "match" the old material as best he could.
It's very refreshing to see work which is more "restoration" than repair.
Excellent work sir!
sunburst
Oct-20-2016, 9:44am
As he worked on the piece he said softly to the clock:"I don't even want YOU to know I was here!"
The "correct" way to do restoration-type repairs is to work in the style of the original builder and to attempt to make the repaired area look as undisturbed as possible. Often, the temptation is to make the repair look better than it "should", and that is sometimes a difficult thing. I was generally happy with the way this one turned out.