Vinaccia Family Makers

[Jim Garber]

I have been trying to make sense of the multiple family members in the Vinaccia family. This is in part to educate myself as to which are the more desirable instruments.

There is a nice history on the Calace site but no similar one for the Vinaccias.

Any clues or elucidations from the professors on this board?

BTW I came across this Italian luthier (http://www.frignanilorenzo.com) who has quite a few interesting instruments pictured but few for sale.

[vkioulaphides]

Let us hope Alex chimes in; my knowledge is sketchy at best. Naturally, while the Calace firm is still in business (yoo-hoo, Raffaele, remember ME?) and can accordingly document its activities since its inception to the present, the Vinaccia family is alas, alas, no more in mando-lutherie.

To make things worse (especially for you, web-savants), vinaccia in Italian is the matter left over after the compression of grapes for vinification, skins, seeds, occasional stems and all; commonly subclassified into vinaccia dolce, i.e. UNfermented, with residual sugar intact, and the other, spicier stuff used to inject a bit of tang into pastries/deserts (the latter after filtration, after it has fermented in and with the liquid part for stain/tannins, etc.)

So, hope for not too much mando-specific from your web-searches... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Eugene]

There's a decent sketch scattered through Sparks's The Classical Mandolin. #I'm sure Alex can elaborate beyond the text.

[Jim Garber]

I have been trying to get that Sparks books for a few years now. It is very scarce. Supposedly it will be reprinted soon. I emailed Oxford but heard nothing. I will call.

In the meantime, I would like to establish some sort of chronology of the family. Here is what I have from various sources. These are dates of actual instruments or, in the case of Henley, working years:

Baines:
Antonio 1772, 1773,
Gaetano 1744

Timmerman:
Pasquale 1891
Giuseppe 1895
Vinaccia family, 1770
antonio 1780, 1779

Henley (working years):
Antonio(1): 1754-1781
Antonio(2) (son of Gennaro) 1763-1798
Gaetano: 1779-1831
Gennaro (son of Antonio): 1755-1778
Giovanni (son of Gennaro): 1762-1777
Mariano (son of Antonio1): 1790-1806
Nicola: 1745-1780
Vincenzo (son of Gennaro): 1769-1795

Other instruments I have seen on line:
Gennaro and Rubino 1890
Pasquale 1882
Giuseppe 1901
Fratelli Vinaccia 1905, 1918, 1904, 1928 (who signed it?)


What happens after that? Who was the last of the Vinaccias? When did the company fold and why? Tune in next week... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

The one I almost caught, as per this thread:
http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....t=13383 (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=6;t=13383)
was of the Fratelli Vinaccia, i.e. Achille and Gennaro. IF, that is, it was authentic— never got close to it #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

As to the [QUOTE]"When did the company fold and why?", I'm sure that it had to do with the general calamities that befell Italy between the two World Wars. It's not for nothing that around that time Italians (especially southerners and Sicilians) fled to the U.S. in droves, that organized crime sprouted everywhere in cancerous vehemence, or that a naturally warm, affable people degenerated to fascism.

[Jim Garber]

Victor:
Do you have the ebay link for that Vinaccia mandolin?

I must confess my collector mentality is down to collecting jpegs of things I cannot buy.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

I'm afraid not, Jim. And your "surrogate addiction" to collecting jpegs is certainly less costly than The Real Thing http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

So, nope: German eBay, weeks ago... Similar to the unadorned piece on Frignani's site, or the (rosewood in this case, not maple) instrument perpetually on sale by Liuteria Lodi. (You have the URL, don't you?) Also "Fratelli", some $2,500 I think...

But you get the idea: plain but elegant, maple bowl, solid (by the jpeg-looks of it, of course), just what I like. I would have gloated to high heaven had I acquired that eBay.de piece at the price where it hovered until the last minute, i.e. 50-some euro, +/- $100 with the shipping. But I guess it was not meant to be...

[Bob A]

I'm sitting here with Sparks on my lap. (Boy howdy, SUCH a straight line).

His index provides the following:

Vinaccia, Achille (1836-1920)
Federico (1839-1884)
Gaetano (1759-after 1831)
Gaetano (c1900) - Described as the most significant luthier of the period (turn of the century Virtuoso Era in Italy). It was also mentioned that the family firm had split into two or more competing businesses by the turn of the cent).
Gennaro (b. 1832)
Giuseppe (c.1900)
Pasquale (1806-c1885)

Sparks quotes R. Harrison, who visited the Vinaccia atelier in the 1880s, chock full of the Signori Vinaccia, workmen and allievi, some five-and-twenty in number, increasing in the busy season. (Begs the question of just when the busy season for mandolin production might be).

A tough book, Sparks. Found one for $150 on abebooks; emailed the dealer (in San Francisco) for a sane price, was blown off. Apparently they sold it for that; mine came up in a used bookstore for $22 a few months later. Never seen another, though I look in a desultory fashion now and then. If I ever do turn one up, I'll email you directly, Jim.

[Arto]

There´s one copy of Sparks`Classical Mandolin available at www.abebooks.com for $109. There´s no description of the book or its condition.

greetings, Arto

PS: I suppose it was me who bought that Californian $150 copy... I thought the price was outrageous, too, but fell for the offer after seeing the same book advertised for "a cheap price" of around $ 350 at Amazon...

[Jim Garber]

Strange doings around this book:

I had done a search on Amazon and until recently it said that it was to be published in January 2004. Now they just say out of print.

It looks like if I want a hardbound, theoretically I can order it directly from Oxford U Press. I have a feeling that it is out of stock there also. I suppose I could get it from Sweden if I was really needing in immediately.

Oxford says on their site that it will be published in paper this year:
http://www.us.oup.com/us....5173376 (http://www.us.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/Music/MusicHistoryWestern/BaroqueClassical/?view=usa&ci=0195173376)

I will call them today to find out if it will actually be out one day. I think I can wait for the paper at $29.95 vs the hardbound over $100.

The frustrating part is that I can't even find it in a library in order to read it. I have never even seen a copy. Strange.

Jim

[btrott]

The frustrating part is that I can't even find it in a library in order to read it.

Jim,

Here is a list of libraries in NY and neighboring locales that own Spark's The Classical Mandolin. You can ignore the cryptic three-letter codes at the end of each line. Your local public library should be able to get a copy for you through interlibrary loan. Good luck,

Barry

New York

CITY COL, CUNY ZXC
COLUMBIA UNIV ZCU
CORNELL UNIV COO
EASTMAN SCH OF MUSIC RES
JUILLIARD SCH, THE ZJS
NEW YORK PUB LIBR RES LIBR NYP
NEW YORK UNIV ZYU
QUEENS BOROUGH PUB LIBR ZQP
QUEENS COL XQM
STATE UNIV OF NEW YORK, BINGHAMTON LIBR BNG
SUNY AT BUFFALO BUF
SUNY AT STONY BROOK YSM
SYRACUSE UNIV SYB
VASSAR COL VXW

Connecticut

UNIV OF CONNECTICUT UCW
WESLEYAN UNIV WLU
YALE UNIV LIBR

New Jersey

PRINCETON UNIV PUL
ROWAN UNIV NJG
RUTGERS UNIV NJR

[Jim Garber]

Thanks, Barry. Actually a good friend is a librarian at Vassar, so I could ask her.

Of course, a book of such importance eventually will need to reside in my library.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

I just spoke to Oxford-US and they have no clue as to when the papoer edition will be published, but they say this year on their site.

They also list the hardbound edition at $115 but the woman I spoke to said that that edition is something you have to order by the copy from the UK so it might be one of those reprint editions, photocopied and bound.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Well, Jim, if/when you catch wind that the paperback edition DID in fact come out, please let us all know. I suspect some (many?) of us might be interested. I looked it up myself, too, but felt a bit silly to go ahead and put in an order with no foreseeable E.T.A. I find doing business that way a bit, err... disconcerting.

Oh, the Lodi URL is: http://liuterialodi.interfree.it/
Their Vinaccia, as well as all their 6 mandolins, have been languishing for eons; prices are STILL quoted in Italian liras (what would be the current exchange-rate for an obsolete currency?)...

Oé, Si'or Lodi, cosa c'è che fare?

[Jim Garber]

I don't think Oxford UP is taking orders yet. The person I spoke with said there is no date mentioned on her computer about when this edition will actually come out.

As far as Lodi, I imagine that many of those Vinaccias are long gone to Japan and that the Web site has not been updated in awhile, hence the prices in Lira. Has anyone contacted them about those mandolins?

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Not I, Jim.

To put it in finance-textbook-speak, "[financial] success is often tantamount to exploiting beneficial inefficiencies inherent in the market". Sellers unaware of the value of their wares, buyers unaware of the availability of such underpriced wares, language barriers, under-publicity of a sale, etc. (i.e. all the factors that kept that Vinaccia at 50 euro for a week) are such inefficiencies.

I don' t buy at the peak, nor from the savvy dealer— can't afford to.

[Bob A]

I wouldn't count on reprints in any reasonable time frame. Kent State U published a book that is in such demand that copies fetch over $300 immediately when one becomes available, which you would think was a darn solid indicator of demand. Despite pleadings etc to reprint, nothing ever happens, though they say they're considering the issue. So much for university publications.

Meanwhile, back to the bookstalls. If I find a copy, I'll let you know.

[Marc]

I picked up this book a couple of years ago, new and gathering dust on the shelves in Foyles London for 30 quid I think. It's a very interesting book and probably should be compulsory reading for the members of this list! I had no idea it was so hard to come by, but if I see another I'll buy it and offer it to the list.

I think RSW has been in touch with Paul Sparks and has his email. I wonder if Paul has any surplus copies himself that he would sell?

Marc

www.belmando.com

[Jim Garber]

Another interesting Vinaccia (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3707984238) bites the eBay dust!

It was at $150 for sometime. Hit $585 this evening and then in a flurry of sniping ended up at $1706.

This is a rather plain one but prob a very nice instrument after some luthier magic. One of those lat 19th C Fratelli V's.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Well, it seems that yet another non-descript listing did not escape notice...

[Jim Garber]

I just saw a posting for a 1920 Vinaccia (Fratelli) mandola. The seller wants $5000 (little negotiation possible). I am not sure but it is probably a tenor mandola. I asked the seller for the scale length and he told me 3 octaves. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif It is a rather plain one but prob a good player.

It was restored in London by Marco Roccia in 1978, but it is hard to tell if it was completely refinished as well. Looks that way from the photo -- a little too shiny.

BTW I have no interest in this other than continuing the discussion about Vinaccias. If anyone wants to pursue this, I would be happy to give him/her the info.

From those who do own such instruments (are there any here?): are they good players as well and how do they compare to the other Italian "star" mandolins, Calace and Embergher and the like?

[vkioulaphides]

No Vinaccia vintner, are you, Jim? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

And a year-or-so ago, there was that smallish-scale mando(lon)cello by the Vinaccias, etc. I have as of yet not played one, but am attracted to their plain, down-to-earth appearance and the evident, fine craftsmanship. Who knows, some day...

*ouch!* Yes, Jim —possibly deceptive photography discounted— the gloss on the soundboard of that mandola spells r-e-v-a-r-n-i-s-h. The Vinaccias I have seen elsewhere had the discrete, "satin" coating on their fine tops, and little gloss on the bodies; French-polish, from the looks of it. This one... as I said: *ouch!*

I think part of the Vinaccia mystique comes from having "been there" from the very, very beginning of the instrument. (Well, you know what I mean, ignoring for now the enormous "Historical mandolins..." thread; I mean the instrument that ignorant paesani like myself would recognize as THE mandolin.) Beyond that, I must leave any tonal/qualitative discussion to those who have sipped from the Vinaccia's magic chalice.

[Bob A]

My first impression was "refin" as well, though it might be a zealous application of wax, highly buffed. Peghead looks vaguely Calace; little label set in at an angle doesn't speak well for the maker, or whoever might have stuck it in there. General lack of ornament speaks to low-end. The seller seems to have posted it in the cafe classifieds, without a price. (On closer reading, that's probably where Jim saw it). Did I see this one on ebay a while ago?

If I needed such a thing (and who among us doesn't?) I'd be hesitant about such a sale unless it came thru a dealer of some repute. There's too much chance of slip twixt the Tiber and the East River for my comfort. Anyway, my Vinaccia is supposedly in the last stages of re-assembly in a distant corner of Jersey City; possibly the De Meglio as well might be in my hands before another few seasons pass. Then I'll be in a position to judge whether I should have chased this one, whatever it may be.

The $1700 Vinaccia did not escape my attention; nor did the nasty crack in the bowl. I would think there'd be room for a dealer on this shore, who would undertake to provide a decent selection of bowlbacks in playable restored condition. If I had time, capital, luthiery skills, and the ability to hibernate between sales to save overhead, I'd do it myself. Thankfully, I lack all the above, and ambition as well. I can't tell you how much aggravation I've avoided by being the anthropoid incarnation of the three-toed sloth. But enough about me. (Yawns; stretches). I've been up three hours already, and the grandson is asleep on the floor by my feet. I believe I'll join him for a brief respite from the relentless pace of existence, so called.

[Jim Garber]

Man, I think the world is now catching onto what we have known for some time. I was crusing Lark Street Music and this Vinaccia (http://www.larkstreet.com/cgibin/list/pict/vinaccia.jpg) (1892) just came in. A little too pearly for me and a little too pricey at $5500. Oh well...

Jim

[btrott]

It appears that there is a hard bound copy of The Classical Mandolin available from an English bookseller for $63. See details at http://www.biblio.com/details.php?dcx=11657573&aid=bkfndr&t=1

Barry

[Jim Garber]

Thanks, Barry. I found that one also but heard from the seller today that it is no longer available.

I contacted my public library to see about interlibrary loans with university libraries but they could not find it on their list for any of the affiliated libraries.

I also contacted my friend who is a librarian at Vassar to see if she can get it for me to read.

Why is this book so difficult to find?

Jim

[Nat]

Very lovely 1890 Vinaccia, Gennaro, and Rubino presentation mandolin up on ebay now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....y=10179 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3710602470&category=10179)

Interesting to compare it to the 1890 V,G, and R mandolin at www.vintage-instruments.com

Wish I'd been at the estate sale where ths must have turned up!

[Jim Garber]

Nice ornate Vinaccia. Too bad about that headstock ear, otherwise looks almost perfect condition. I can't figure out why the seller describes: "42 fluted rosewood staves" when they look like maple.

This one will go for serious money, IMHO. Over $3000, I think.

Jim

[Eugene]

Hmmm...That scratchplate and clasp are identical to one of the Manello mandolins at the Met.

[Jim Garber]

You are correct, Eugene. I wonder if there is a connection between Manello and Vinaccia. Or possibly they used the same inlay artist.

Jim

[Nat]

Well, it looks like the auction for the presentation Vinaccia mandolin was ended early. -sigh- It seems like every mandolin I get interested in on ebay end up being pulled prematurely. #On top of that, it seems that some creep has been using my ebay e-mail account to try and dupe people who've bid on the same instruments I have.

Oh well.

[Jim Garber]

Probably the seller suddenly realized that people were offering real money in the early stages. He figured he'd better ge this instrument over to an expert. I would not be surprised if it shows up with a $5000 starting bid.

As to your ebay id theft: I assume that you can change your id and password to foil the creep?

Jim

[milazzese]

This has now been relisted with a starting bid of $395. #It seems that the seller could not authenticate the Vinaccia, et al. attribution, because there is an importer's label covering the original.

The irony of the greed factor causing the ignorami to withdraw their listings and relist them at high opening bids is that the sexy instruments sell for as high as they are worth at auction, unless you want to keep it in a shop, collecting dust for years, until the right person with lots of cash decides to pay a premium.

Let's see what happens . . .

[Nat]

Gone again... "the item is no longer available for sale".

[Jim Garber]

I heard back from the seller of the ornate Vinaccia. She says:

i had tons of offers for this mandolin, so i took an
offer that i felt the auction wouldn't get up to.
although with all the offers i've had, maybe it would
have.

Was it anyone on this list? Probably not.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

They accepted an offer of $4000.

Jim

[RSW]

I bet it wasn't someone who actually plays the mandolin for a living:) Pretty to look at, maybe even a half decent sound but it would certainly have limited usefullness unless it's purpose is to impress other collectors.

[etbarbaric]

Hi Richard,

A close guess. #The buyer who got the seller to end her EBay auction early was apparently a dealer (Carlo of Naples). #(I must say that I rather detest this practice of ending auctions early). #The dealer will now sell it to his Japanese clientelle for a considerable profit I assume. # Based on past pricing, I'd guess 15,000 euro at least. #He offers to replace the fingerboard with a professional one of Ebony... I would consider this a deplorable act... (in fairness, he says he'll only do it at the customer's request).

As others have hinted, this instrument is almost certainly not a Vinaccia at all... and the original seller's attribution to "Gennaro and Rubino Vinaccia" (which Carlo is now repeating) probably comes from a description of another fancy instrument that can be found on the Web (thus the curious original EBay description that claimed "fluted rosewod ribs" when they are clearly not as Jim pointed out).

As Eugene and Jim observed, this instrument is almost certainly a Manello. #Not only are the pick-guard and end-clasp nearly identical to one of the Manello instruments in the Met, but there is an early photo of Mr. Manello that shows a very similar instrument... perhaps this very instrument... in his workshop. #This level of ornament is much more in line with Manello's World's Fair competition.

The importer label may indicate that this instrument possibly pre-dates Mr. Manello's imigration to America.

Ah well... he with the most money wins I suppose... #Should I tell the original seller that she probably left $10K on the table by ending her auction early? #Will that make me feel better?

Eric

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi Eric,

Perhaps...

But I agree with you; changing mandolins should be forbidden if this is not done by the maker him/herself. No matter what reason is given and by whom. A penalty could best be: live long suspension of the trade for bad conduct.


Greetings,

Alex

[etbarbaric]

Hi Alex,

Yes, it is a little like Leopoldo Francolini... who created monsters from surviving pieces of historical musical instruments to sell as decorations or supposed museum pieces. In this case the justification is curiously reversed... so that someone can "play" what can perhaps only be described as a museum piece. Ah... the ego of us all...

Eric

[Alex Timmerman]

Not a little! It is a very good comparisment!

As with all (fingerboard) changings the instruments will be less to not important for research purposes and be devaluated enormously in every sence.

If it happens in this case (certainly a museum piece!), it would again be a great pity really for the History of our instrument...


Best,

Alex

PS. Eric, I presume you are pointing towards the mandolin laying on the table at the right side of Angelo Mannello (that is from the pectators point of view). If so, yes that could very well be the same mandolin.

[etbarbaric]

Hi Alex,

Yes, exactly, the instrument lying on its face with the side facing the camera (on Angelos left side). #The photo in my copy of "Musical Instruments in the Metropolitan Museum" #is a little fuzzy but the instrument (or style of instrument/inlay) is quite easy to recognize. #I can't confirm that the inlay is identical at this resolution but the pattern, woods, and angles are all identical. # If its not the same instrument, its very very similar.

I thought the publication's description was rather well written:

"... he [Angelo] garnered gold medals for his confections of ivory, tortoiseshell, mother-of-pearl, and fine woods."

Confections indeed... just the right word!

Eric

ps - I knew that this instrument was going to Italy when the auction was ended early. #I had hoped that at least it would go to an Italian museum. #Should someone call the Met? #Eugene, Jim, do you have a contact there who could perhaps rescue this treasure for their Mannello collection? Tell me who to talk to... If the Mannello family thought the Met was good enough.. its good enough for me...

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Eric,


It would certainly be something for the Metropolitan!

They have already two of these beautiful decorated mandolins and having three would of course complement it all.

And afterall #Mannello is probably the greatest Italian American mandolin maker ever. So yes, why not get the MET involved? It is a way (and maybe the only way) to preserve the mandolin in it´s original state. #

Perhaps it can be saved and shown in the town where it was made...

That´s always nice.

I would say: try it (Jim and Eugene are the ones to contact).


Greetings,

Alex.

[RSW]

Alex, come on now, why are you saying Manelo is the greatest American mandolin maker ever. We all now that this belongs to Lloyd Loar and the Gibson firm:) Seriously, we all know that decoration doesn't a fine instrument make. If I would have to choose the best or most well served American 'classical' mandolin, it would have to go to one of these three: Vega, Lyon & Healy or even Gibson (in no particular order). The American virtuosi played any of these three makes (manufacturers). Vinaccia, Calace and Embergher were not that common in the US and none of the famous players I know of played them even though the italian contingent (de Pace, Pettine, Fillipis, Viccari, etc) could easily have acquired them. Manelo was an impressive craftsmen visually, only the fortunate Carlo of Naples and maybe his future client will know how good it really is. I agree with Eric, ending auctions early should not be condoned by Ebay, but finally I don't think any of us would have forked over $4k+ for just a pretty face with less than 24 frets:)

[etbarbaric]

Hi Richard,

Yeah... that would be like over $600/frett!!! :-)

I agree. #I think then as now, the Mannello represents the pinacle of the maker's Art... #and not necessarily the ideal player's instrument. # It inspires in a different way... just by sitting there. #This is why I cringe at the idea of modifications to these instruments to suite later/modern performance practice (as much as I appreciate the musical side of mandolin art).

Then again... I don't see anything that would necessarily keep it from playing well either.

Eric

[Alex Timmerman]

Hay Richard,

Sorry that you got the impression I was placing the Neapolitan born woodworker Angelo Mannello - once he was active as a mandolin maker in New York - in line above Orville H. Gibson and Lloyd Loar.

That, of course, was not at all my intention.

I refered therefore to Angelo Mannello not as an American mandolin maker, but as "probably the greatest Italian American mandolin maker ever". Him being an Italian emigrant. I did this to show the roots of American bowl-back mandolin making. And also to point out who I think is one of the most important and - for his superb artistic qualities - interesting Italian born luthiers working succesfully in the US at that time.

Both Orville H. Gibson and Lloyd Loar were born as American citizen (Gibson in Chateaugay a place near New York in 1856 and Loar in Cropsey in 1886, Illinois, as you of course know) and both (and perhaps a third in the person of Guy Hart should be mentioned here also) must of course be remembered as the greatest of America´s luthiers where it concernes the carved and arched top & back mandolins and other inovations like the f-hole and the double-tone bar bracing system on their mandolin (and their other plucked instruments).


Best,

Alex

[RSW]

Sorry Alex, I was sort of joking (about Loar). All I was saying is that the criteria of a musical instrument has generally been focused on it's worth as an expressive tool for a musician and not necessarily the expression of a pure craftsmanship or expressions of decorative fancy. That's pretty much why I hate unreserved crowning of luthiers of the past. WE use this criteria for any other instrument (violin family, for example), why not with the mandolin. Manelo? I have never had the pleasure of playing one or, to be truthful, ever heard of his name before. I don't think he made very many instruments. That someone would pay that much money for the instrument in question doesn't surprise me, it is pretty and would be a nice addition to a museum or private collection. I couldn't imagine getting something on that decorative order from any living maker for much less. However, for the same amount of money, I would rather commission a new instrument (with such decorations, if that were important to me) that had a full life ahead of it and could actually be played comfortably.
So, my complimenti to Carlo of Napoli and his future Japanese buyer.

[Alex Timmerman]

Yes Richard, I think we agree:

It would be nice in a Museum as a piece of Art and a Mandolin.


But do not underestimate the production of mandolins, guitars and banjos by Bronze- (1893 Chicago) and Gold medal (1897 Tennesee, 1900 Paris and san Francico, 1901 Buffalo and 1904 St. Louis) winning Mannello (who came in as early as 1885 to the US): he had his own agent and already in 1903 up to 75 employees in his instrument factory!
After a fire that ruined his factory (1918) Mannello stopped making instruments on this large scale, working for himself making beautiful decorated mandolins on commission and selling them through his music shop (Laurence Libin in American Musical Instruments - in the Metropolitan Museum of Art). #
A kind of Italian/American Vinaccia so to speak.


It´s better we focus more on new made modern mandolins.

Best,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

Folks... can't we all be friends here? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Having been in the same room as both the Met's Mannello mandolins, I can certainly say that ehy are exquisite works of art. Neither Eugene or I played either of them, however. My friend and our tour guide for our expedition said that Carlo Aonzo on his visit to the Met a few years before had played one of them and that it sounded pretty amazing. Then again it was Carlo playing it.

No doubt it should be a nice sounding instrument but the amount of ornamentation makes it more of a presentation instrument and an exhibit of craftsman's virtuosity.

Mannello did produce a large quantity of factory level instruments, competing with the likes of Luigi Ricca. I have seen quite a few rather plain, utilitarian mandolins.

Jim

[RSW]

Now, now Jim, what makes you think we're not friends? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif))) Actually, my point remains as such. I have nothing against decoration or even people with a lot of tatoos. Baroque and neo-baroque art has it's place and if the artist can combine that with a beautiful sound and playability, well... if you can afford it, why not? What bothers me personally is what happened to all the instruments churned out by Mannello and his 75 employese? I never saw one mention of his name by Pettine nor other contemporaries. I'll go back through all the trade books of ther early 20th century and see if I can find his name but it is strange that the virtuosi of the time were not endorsing his instruments. Granted, my visit to the MET and NYC is way over due, but I've never seen one mentioned before. Was he better known for guitars? Not sure all these medals won mean very much (Bohmann won a few and claimed himself the 'Greatest'). Anyway, thanks for not taking issue with my misspelling of his name, I got it now.

[Jim Garber]

This brings up another mystery in terms of the other maker I mentioned, Luigi Ricca.

According to Mike Holmes: "Luigi Ricca was a mandolin and guitar manufacturer in New York City from circa 1886 to 1895 when he moved to Brooklyn. In May, 1898 he moved his factory and most of his 200 employees to New Orange, NJ where he continued in business into the new century."

Obviously, Ricca (and probably Mannello also) were manufacturing for other brands. Ortherwise, the world would be overrun by Riccas. Maybe not as big as Washburn but they must have produced plenty under other names.

Libin's book sheds some light on Mannello:
For instance, on the awards, he says: "These fairs were not so rigorously competitive as might be imagined; the point being to encourage commerce, nearly everyone won some formal recognition."

He goes on to mention that C. Bruno and Son contracted many of the lower end mandolins made by mannello's factory. The only "famous" mandolin player mentioned by Libin, BTW, who played Mannello's fancy models was Signor Perara's mandolin band in Minneapolis. Has anyone heard of him/them? Mannello alos presented a mandolin to Adelina Patti, obviously a means to get recognition and prestige.

Jim

[Eugene]

Hmmm...I have been a long-time fan of Bruno's decent mandolins and often wondered who the builder might be. They are certainly more working-class than Manello's presentation stuff, but still seem very nicely crafted. Almost all the Bruno bowlbacks I've seen have had an odd scratchplate that wrapped halfway around the soundhole.

On the matter at hand, I agree; Sr. Mazzaccara's shop is not the place where I would like to see the possible Manello/alleged Vinaccia. His approach to the mandolin art is a little too mercenary to serve the extremely rare.

[vkioulaphides]

During the last decade of his life, my late bass teacher realized he was sitting on a treasure, a collection priceless, unique: a Hieronymus Amati, the (twin to the Met collection's) Achille Gouffe, a guitar-shaped Testore, a lovely, smaller instrument from Sassuola...

He consigned the entire bunch to a dealer, with immediate cash-in-hand on one side of the deal, and a post mortem agreement for the day of the inevitable on the other. The sad result: No player (that I know of) will probably EVER get to play these instruments again. Who can touch such treasures on a symphonic salary? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[RSW]

Jim,

Very interesting research. Now had I known that Mannello had made a mandolin for Adelina Patti, I would have fought tooth and nail for that instrument before Signore Pantalone di Napoli made the seller an offer he (she) couldn't refuse. Patti is my favorite singer of all time, perhaps my favorite musician.

At least now we know what all those workmen were doing for Mannello and Ricca (probably making some fine Vegas).

[Jim Garber]

I just spoke to my friend at the Metropolitan Museum and there is a likelihood that they might be interested. Ornate Mannellos are not all that common.

I sent him all the jpegs I have on this instrument.

I will keep you all posted on further developments.

Jim

[etbarbaric]

That's great Jim. Thanks for the efforts. If this works I think it will be something that we can all celebrate.

Eric

[Alex Timmerman]

Good news Jim! Lets´s see what happens.


Best,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

Once again, I just wanted to keep this thread alive -- and wondering if any one has any new info of late. Maybe news that someone is covering the history of the Vinaccia family ina a book or movie http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

[onthefiddle]

This doesn't directly relate to the Vinaccia family, but this article (http://www.maestronet.com/m_library/world_strings/fall82.pdf) on Maestronet gives some idea of the conditions that Neapolitan luthiers faced at that time.

[etbarbaric]

Jim, thanks for dragging this old thread to the top... it brings back such fond memories! :-)

So if you read back through the various posts, you can see confusion in spades:

- An ornate Mandolin is posted on EBay as being a Genaro and Rubino Vinaccia... Oddly, the description does not match the instrument (lightly-colored cypress ribs are identified as rosewood). The reason for the disparity is that the neophyte seller apparently derived the attribution entirely from another ornate mandolin that they found on the Web (it is still on the Web) that is attributed to "Vinaccia, Gennaro and Rubino" (sic.)
- Same EBay mandolin is identified by several as more likely the work of Angelo Mannello based on visual details.
- Ebay auction is ended early... twice... instrument is scooped up (outside EBay) by an international dealer with $$$ in his eyes because of the saleability of the Vinaccia name.
- Dealer initially markets the mandolin widely as "Very Rare Gennaro and Rubino Vinaccia Mandolin"... believing the previous seller... even though the attribution was spurious to begin with.
- Dealer finally soaks off one label (a dealer label) to discover that mandolin is indeed not a Vinaccia (as some have been trying to tell him in vein), but is actually by Angelo Mannello (go figure).

And of course, the humorous aspect is that the original description that started it all came from a mandolin that is likely not a (true) Vinaccia either... but is instead probably just what it likely claims to be... namely the work of Gennaro Rubino (a student, and perhaps one-time member of of the Fratelli Vinaccia at best).

This kind of thing happens all the time. A few years ago I was offered a very ornate and beautiful 18th-century mandolin as "an original Vinaccia". This offer came from a *very* reputable luthier through very reputable connections. The offer was in the form of detailed hardcopy 8x10 photographs, and a formal letter on letterhead offering to certify (with a certificate), restore, and deliver the instrument for $12K... Much urgency was implied, as there were supposedly other people on the list just waiting to snap up this unbelievable opportunity.

I passed... but a few months later, I found *the very same instrument* for sale by someone else (for much, much less) without the claimed Vinaccia association and I bought it. On inspection, the label has been destroyed... and the physical attributes of the instrument make it very doubtful that it has any association with the Vinaccia family (it is more likely from the Fabricatore Atelier).

So... as the mandolin becomes more popular and collectable, keep your eyes open for scamming name-droppers... even innocent ones.

As always, caveat emptor!

Eric

[onthefiddle]

As this is about a member of the Vinaccia family, and not an ex student of theirs, I thought I should post this here, with a link (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=6;t=21498) to my last post.
I think I have found a source that pushes Giovanni Vinaccia's working life further back.
In his "Geometry, Proportion And The Art Of Lutherie" (OUP 1985) Kevin Coates analyses a Neapolitan Mandolin by Johannes Vinaccia, Naples 1753, which is in a private collection. I'm not sure how Gaetano would translate, but Giovanni seems more likely to me.
Besides analysing the geometry of this mandolin, he also demonstrates a development in the geometry of Vinaccia mandolins within the first thirty years of their development. This development followed a consistent proportional scheme.

[etbarbaric]

Hi Jon,

I may be misunderstanding your post, but I think Johannes is Johannes. I have seen it written as such on supposedly original labels.

Eric

[onthefiddle]

Hi Eric,

I'm sure that the label on this instrument also says Johannes, but I would imagine that he used this form of his name for his labels (perhaps for a northern European client?)
Makers commonly used different forms of their name on their labels at this time, though the most common practice was to use the Latin form of their name (for example Antonius Stradivarius instead of Antonio Stradivari).
My Latin is nearly non existent, but I don't think the Johannes is a Latin form of Giovanni (or Gaetano), but a northern European one.
If I'm correct about this, then this may also tell us a lot about who the Vinaccias were making for at that time.
Sorry I wasn't clearer.

Jon

[onthefiddle]

Actually....I am wrong!
According to this webpage (http://freereg.rootsweb.com/howto/latinnames.htm) Johannes is the Latin form of John (and so presumably Giovanni).

Jon (Johannes...well maybe not quite...) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[etbarbaric]

Ha! Of course your Northern European connection is valid too... I have known people named Johann who go as "John".

You, before anyone, should be the authority on this one! :-)

Thanks for the clarification,

Eric (who also goes as Eric)

ps - I hope you're happy... you've caused me to go out and order a copy of the Coates book.

[Martin Jonas]

Johannes, Johann, Hannes and Hans are all very common German forms of John (and Giovanni, and Jean), Johannes being the most formal of these and frequently, but not always, the form appearing in passports and the like.

Martin

[onthefiddle]

Sorry about that Eric! Still, you can't call it SMAS!
It's a fascinating book. The Vinaccia is the only Neapolitan Mandolin he analyses, but there are also two Mandolinos - a five course Strad and an anonymous four course instrument.
Besides this there are many other examples of his geometric analysis of Viols, Violins, Lutes, Citterns and Guitars.
Perhaps the most impressive drawing is that of an English Violet (a very ornate type of Viola D'Amore with a festooned outline and more strings).
The debate over the construction of a Violin outline can actually be quite a hot one at times, with a number of competing theories. It's believed that the method of constructing an outline is the lost secret which died with the golden age of Cremonese makers (Violin Makers have been mainly copyists since), but in his analysis of the Vinaccia he states that this knowledge seems to have survived longer in Naples.

Jon

[Eugene]

To add just a little, here is the list of the 18th c. Vinaccia clan (Latinized names preserved) busy labelling mandolins as catalogued by Morey (1993. Mandolins of the 18th century. Editrice Turris, Cremona.):

Name/No. Instruments/Dates
Antonius/17/1764-1788
Antonius filius Januarii/5/1754-1764
Domino/1/1780
Gaetanus/1/1744
Gaetanus/3/1775-1798
Januarius/6/1771-1779
Ioannes/6/1753-1776
Marianus/2/1796-1808
Nicolaus/1/1795 (or 1775?)
Pasquale/1/1829
Vincentius/13/1761-1785
unnamed Vinaccia/4/1752-1765