Recording hints

[jasona]

Actually, finally, managed to lay down a few tracks tonight. My goal has been to improve the sound quality of video submissions for the Mike Marshall classes way back when, but life intervened and I am only now getting around to learning how to do this hands on. First thing I really need to do though is learn how to work with Reaper, having accidentally started tracks several measures before the others...

I started working on mic placement. Nowhere sounded quite right, but the best result I got was below the treble F-hole about 10 inches away. I think, my mandolin sure sounds a lot more responsive monitored than playing normally, and I think I might have not hit the strings as fully as I otherwise would have as a result. Is this a thing I just need to learn to work with or are there tips for playing more naturally in front of a mic? Maybe my AKG Perception 170 is not mic enough to give really true sound reproduction, but I am also certain I am not recording optimally yet.

I then set the metronome, and put down the rhythm track, which seemed a logical first step. Then melody. Several times. Finally decided one of those would surely be good enough for a first pass, but then did one more while also filming on web cam for making that video submission following Old Sausage's blog instructions. Decided that would be fine for tonight, tomorrow I will work on a mix to upload for critique, and then the scary process of trying to get Movie Maker to synch sound and vision.

Anyway, this is quite the rabbit hole to go down, so I welcome any of your hard won hints, work arounds, suggestions, or just funny home recording stories. On the one hand I'm kind of over the moon--actually finally did it, hurray--but on the other I can see why some personality types really obsess over recording, and how nothing ever really sounds quite right. Perfect, the enemy of good enough.

[almeriastrings]

Fist - your Perception 170 is a very good mic and more than up to the job. Have no doubts you can get excellent, pro-studio grade recordings from that mic if used correctly that are good enough to be used on a commercial release.

Mic placement, is, as you have noted, largely a matter of experimentation, but it seems you have already discovered one of the well-known "sweet spots". Even small movements in distance and angle make large changes in the result, though... so continue to explore.

One thing you have not mentioned is the acoustic space you are recording in. This is actually more important than any small differences between microphones... it is the one thing that (these days) tends to separate 'studio' recordings from 'home' recordings. Simple fact is that the EQUIPMENT (mics, preamps, interfaces) available to non-pros at reasonable prices are now of such a high standard that it is less the GEAR that matters (as it used to) but more the RECORDING ROOM ACOUSTICS that makes the most difference. Studios put a lot of effort into this.... most 'home' recordists tend to overlook it entirely. The difference it can make is incredible... lots of reading on this pays off.

http://ehomerecordingstudio.com/acoustic-treatment-101/

https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb06/articles/studiosos.htm

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan14/articles/qanda-0114-03.htm

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug01/articles/recacgtr0801.asp

[jasona]

Very many thanks for these links! This will keep me busy for the next while for sure. My recording space was my bedroom, but I tried to dampen sounds as well as I could by playing into the bed, with a couple of pillows set up around the mic forming a two sided "box" into which I placed the mic, if that makes sense. I have no idea if it was a good idea, other than I knew something had to be done to dampen the surrounding acoustics.

Now that I listen to it again (insomnia strikes again), I think I was underestimating how well it recorded. I definitely played with a lighter hand though, which is a funny side effect of the mic. I did find playing along with a rhythm track a lot of fun and much easier than just with the click track. OK, as with everything, more practice is needed to get over the jitters.

[Don Grieser]

Reaper starts recording wherever the playhead is. It doesn't automatically rewind to the beginning when you hit stop. Just make sure you rewind to 0:00 before you hit record.

If you turn down your headphones, you'll play louder. You'll have to experiment a bit to find the right balance.

[LBob]

One thing I would definitely recommend playing with is *not* trying to dampen everything - reducing reflections (what you are actually doing by putting things up that absorb sound) can be good/key/critical for certain tasks (e.g. if you are getting hard rear reflections on a recorded vocal things can really sound boxy), but for an acoustic instrument you don't necessarily want to kill all of those reflections, as part of what makes an acoustic instrument sound like it sounds in person is the sound the room adds. When recording drums, for instance, the sound of the room is the real make/break thing for me.

Try just walking around your house from room to room while playing your mandolin, facing walls, facing away from walls, etc. You will notice a huge difference in how things sound.

So the trick is capturing good room sounds while reducing bad (unnatural) room sounds... definitely play around with different rooms, different placements of you and the mic inside of that room, and the location of sound absorbing materials. If your mic allows it (I don't know the mic you mention), you can also play around with different patterns on the mic until you get something that sounds the most like your instrument live in the room.

[jasona]

Thanks Don and Bob. Bob I definitely know what you mean about different areas sounding differently--and so does my wife, so I don't tend to do it too much unless she is out! I will experiment with recording in different areas to see how much the surrounding areas enhance the recording. I have to admit I'm pretty taken by this, now that the initial adrenaline rush is over. Its so much more...musical...to play to tracks rather than clicks! Also yeah, still obviously have my headphones way too loud. I'll get it.

Here is my first attempt--and not necessary the best take, but its the one that I did a video of so I'll just go with it, flaws (and there are those!) and all, to practice sound and video synching in Movie Maker. I'm chuffed that I am getting better at just playing through flubbed triplets/pulloffs/honkers rather than stopping, since that is critical for jams. I should really be better after all these years, but there you go, its the journey not the destination...
https://soundcloud.com/jason-anderson-135581481/liberty-variations-video

[LBob]

Sounds like you are on the right path, Jason! Recording is like anything else... the more you do, the better you get at it.

[Don Grieser]

Jason, the clip sounds good. Much better than my first attempt at recording.

If you don't have the click in your headphones, you could also try slipping one headphone slightly off so you can hear the acoustic sound of your instrument as well as the microphone sound. If you have the click in your phones, it'll bleed into your mic if you have a headphone off. A little chop bleed won't be a big deal for what you're doing--making a video.

Recording is fun. When you push record, you'll learn to turn off the technical side of your brain and just play. Don't get too caught up in every little thing you hear. Don't look at the screen. Just play. You can always punch in/edit the best parts of several takes. You'll get over the pressure of recording a take. Concentrate on the tune and just have fun.

You'll learn a lot about your playing as well as recording, but don't think about those things when you're playing and recording. Wait till you play back the recording to do the analyzing.

[gtani7]

Here is my first attempt--and not necessary the best take, but its the one that I did a video of so I'll just go with it, flaws (and there are those!) and all,

Nice playing, but it sounds very slightly muffled/distant, like i get with my 2 large condensor mikes going straight into either interface i have/had (a 2i2 or an old Avid mbox). When i plug the mikes into a Peavy mixer (or a Yamaha MG series i used to have) just for the preamps, it sounds a lot more present, you can really hear pick articulation and the bass is richer. So maybe you can borrow a mixer or outboard preamp (ART or presonus on the low end, Black Lion, golden age, univ. audio, focusrite ISA etc at the $500+ level).

Also recommend Dave Hunter's Home recording Handbook. While it doesn't cover mandolin (does cover acoustic guitar), it's got lots of tips on room treatment, placement/tracking and applying compression, eq, reverb etc afterwards.

[almeriastrings]

The 2i2 preamps are very neutral, very clean. I have inter-cut stuff recorded with those along with tracks recorded with my own Audient, Great River and Universal Audio pres, and to be perfectly honest, they sounded remarkably good! Certainly nothing that would "marr" a recording at all. Same with those Perception 170 mics - you can run them alongside KM184's and even Schoeps MK-12's, and they hold their own very well indeed (considering the truly vast price differential).

Listening to the recording, I'd play around with:

1) Mic position
2) Playing technique. There is a lot of pick/hand noise/thump in there... the "signal to noise ratio" of the string vs the extraneous noise from that is too low. By playing harder, with more power, and then backing the instrument off from the mic somewhat you should be able to achieve a cleaner, more dynamic tone and increase the differential between the 'clean' string sound and any pick/hand noise.

All takes time to figure this out....

[jasona]

Really valuable input, thanks!

[jasona]

For the record, Movie Maker is a terrible program. I guess you get what you pay for! Even getting it to recognize native Windows file types was a chore.

[Mandobart]

I just tried an el cheapo audio recording method with mixed results. I have virtually every adapter known, so I connected the male XLR direct out on my acoustic amp (Carbon AG300) to the 1/8" mic in on a Sony ICD-PX333 (a real cheapie device given to me by a former bandmate, but it saves the tracks as mp3 so no need to do any conversion later). The vocal (using an SM58 on channel 2) sounds just fine on playback, but the mandocello (twin head piezo using 1/4" cord into hi-Z channel 1) sounds slightly distorted when played back. The sound of the vocals and instrument coming out of the amp's speakers is great; no distortion. I have the direct out pot dialed back to almost zero. Each channel volume seems to affect the input volume to the direct out; the amp master volume does not. I'm aware its very possible that my recording device (the Sony) may be crap, but it has performed ok just using the internal mic for recording practice, song ideas, etc. Is my method of using the amp's direct out with no VU meters a bad idea? Is there a better recording device out there that I could plug straight into that would work better? I plan on plugging into my old XP laptop with Audacity later on (no recording on Valentine's Day for this guy) to try that. Thought someone following this thread may have more experience this saving me some trouble. Thanks.

Added this: after reading the final of Almeria's links (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug01/articles/recacgtr0801.asp)above I'm thinking I should mic the mandocello vs plugging straight in to the pickup next. Should have read that earlier.

[almeriastrings]

One issue here is that the direct out from your Carvin is a balanced XLR at 'pro audio' levels up to +4 dBu (1.22V) and your little recorder has an accessory microphone unbalanced input mini-jack. So you have a major, major mismatch right there that you cannot resolve with a 'simple' adapter. Even if you reduce the output trim on the direct out right down, it will likely overload on peaks - you'll also get a lot more residual noise than desirable.

The easiest thing would be to simply record the Carvin using the built in mic of the Sony.... it will not be stupendous quality, but good enough for rehearsals and practice sessions. Going through an amp, you will not get a 'true acoustic' sound of course, either. To do that you'd be better of getting something like one of the little Zoom or Tascam hand-helds (with built in stereo mics) and recording without the Carvin in the chain.

[foldedpath]

I just tried an el cheapo audio recording method with mixed results. I have virtually every adapter known, so I connected the male XLR direct out on my acoustic amp (Carbon AG300) to the 1/8" mic in on a Sony ICD-PX333 (a real cheapie device given to me by a former bandmate, but it saves the tracks as mp3 so no need to do any conversion later).

Just a quick note about saving a recording direct to MP3, for anyone who isn't aware of this. You may already know this, but if you plan to do any basic editing later on, like trimming heads and tails or normalizing the volume, *and* if it's something more important than just a scratch recording, then it's better to record in uncompressed WAV format.

When you edit an MP3 and then save it again as an MP3, you're stacking up compression artifacts and degrading the recording (slightly). It's like loading a JPEG image into Photoshop and then saving out again as a JPEG. You might get away with one edit and not notice the artifacts if you're working at a high bitrate like 256kbps, but it's not a good habit to get into for anything important.

Editing an MP3 and saving again as an MP3 is something I do it all the time for unimportant stuff, like clipping out a tune from my MP3 library and slowing it down for practice. But I wouldn't do it for anything meant for others to hear later on. I always record audio intended for public distribution direct to WAV, where it can be edited non-destructively in DAW software that preserves the original recording quality.

[Mandobart]

Update - I picked up a Presonus Audiobox USB (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AudioBoxUSB) from my local music store. Having a little trouble with the Studio One Artist software on my old XP laptop, but the audiobox works great as an audio interface with Audacity. I can go direct in or use the line out on my Carvin amp. Just getting started with recording, but far and away much better sound than my el cheapo earlier attempt.