Insurance needed to play gig?

[Pete Braccio]

Hi all,

My band is in a p--ssing war with a venue that is requiring us to sign a viability waiver and to have liability insurance in order to play a gig. We told them we weren't going to do it. They are saying that other bands have no problem with this.

Just to clarify a bit, we weren't hired by the venue for the gig. We were hired to play at a wedding at the venue.

What do you all do when faced with this?

Thanks,
Pete

[Eric C.]

How large is the venue? What would you need liability insurance for?

[Steve L]

I would tell the bride the venue is making it impossible for you to play her wedding and let her tear the appropriate hearts out. I would also ask for a list of bands willing to do this and see what they have to say. I've done a lot of weddings over the years and I've never heard of this.

[F-2 Dave]

The venue clearly doesn't want to be held liable for any banjo related accidents.

[Pete Braccio]

It's a local venue that is primarily a wedding venue now. They can seat about 200 to 300 hundred people. And, they charge the big bucks for it (tens of thousands).

[Pete Braccio]

And, we just told the bride to have a talk to her wedding planner to get her in line. We'll see what happens.

[MikeEdgerton]

I'm a little taken back by this. Do they require the same from a DJ, the florists, the bakery providing the wedding cakes, or any other vendors supplying services to the weddings at their facility? Why the band? I paid for a pretty good sized wedding a few years back and I never saw this. I'm going to guess they have a list of people they want their customers doing business with and you aren't on that list. There's no other reason I can see.

[SincereCorgi]

I've heard of this at some local venues, mostly venues that are also historical sites. It's a little freaky. A drummer I know was being helped with his load-out by a staff member at one of these places, a fancy hillside mansion, and in the process the staff guy managed to shatter a little imported statue from the late 19th century. If there hadn't have been plenty of witnesses, the insurance thing could have gotten ugly.

[Pete Braccio]

All vendors (not on their approved list) are required to do this so, yes, they may be making life difficult because we are not "on the list".

[MikeEdgerton]

I suspect that is the answer. When my daughter got married we were handed a sheet of paper with a list of vendors that had worked at the facility. We did have one vendor we used that wasn't on the list but it didn't cause them any problems. My next question would be to ask the venue how to get on the list. I suspect I know what that answer will be, then again, I'm from New Jersey.

[Pete Braccio]

I suspect that the answer on how to get on "the list" is the same in California.

[Timbofood]

Never had to deal with any of that! Thank God! My band has done some weird gigs but that would be "on the wedding planner" in our situation. So happy to never have been in that position. Most of the wedding gigs we have done we have been "included" as guests as well.

[9lbShellhamer]

I've only played a handful of weddings as my band is just getting started, but we've played a handful last summer and we're booked for quite a few this summer and luckily we've not been asked to.

[allenhopkins]

Happened once, when a seniors' residence where I play(ed) maybe once a year, got new out-of-town management, and asked me not only for liability insurance, but for a worker's compensation waiver.

Well, I had the waiver, which I'd obtained to sign a contract with a local municipality for a summer program, but damned if I'd pay for a $1 million liability insurance policy, for a once-a-year $75 gig. Told 'em that; don't play there any more. And I don't know any other local musicians who do.

In Pete B's case, it may be the venue's wish to send business to its "regulars," who may give them a sweetheart deal, even kick back some of what the bride's family pays them. In my case, it was when a "big" management corporation, with attendant legal staff, decided that the guy playing guitar for one of their monthly "birthday parties" was a source of risk.

Now, the residence catered to people with disabilities, not just seniors, and there's potential there for injury, perhaps more than at a "regular" seniors' facility. But I play assisted living facilities, nursing homes, group homes, etc. a couple hundred times a year, and this is the only time I've been hit up for liability insurance.

[barney 59]

I would eliminate the pyrotechnics from my act and the Jimi Hendricks reenactment of the burning of the Stratocaster and ask them if that would be good enough! Oh, and drop the Hell's Angels as your bodyguards!

[James Rankine]

Our ceilidh band has it. It's very cheap, from memory something like £60- £80 pounds a year. We have a caller who is directing a bunch of amateur dancers, we set the pace and it's to cover us if someone falls over, breaks a leg and sues us. Sad I know but it is the way of the world. It's nothing to do with a requirement of the venues we play (usually church and village halls and the like). It's organised by our caller through some sort of musicians union I think. To be honest I thought it was pretty standard for our line of work.

[James Rankine]

Come to think of it we played an Irish centre in Manchester and the air conditioning unit leaked water all over the dance floor delaying the start of our second set by an hour whilst the floor dried out. It was very slippy just walking over it. Clearly a problem with the venue but we were in charge of the dancing so it felt good to be covered and obviously we didn't want to put anyone at risk. I would think insurance was an absolute requirement if you are a dance band - which is presumably what a wedding band is. I always thought the USA was more litigious than the UK, but we seem to be catching up.

[Eddie Sheehy]

I let my attornies handle it... Dewey, Screwem, and How...

[Willie Poole]

I play quite a few places that have me sign a contract that says I will be responsible for any damage that me or my band members cause to their property, I never have taken out any insurance but it might be something that i should look into since we play at a few museums and there are plenty of articles around that are worth quite a bit of money, if my musicians drank I would be worried about them falling down on some item that is priceless...

I think the manager of the venue is just covering his butt...

[pops1]

I have been playing weddings, bars, schools, art fairs, museums, opera houses, boat tours, etc.etc. for 40 years and never heard of this.

[jim simpson]

We were hired to play a local senior home, started our first tune at which a gentleman resident stood up to dance and fell, breaking his hip (as we later learned). I was sorry to hear of a resident breaking a hip due any excitement we may have caused. I guess I should be happy we weren't named in a liability lawsuit.

[pops1]

We were hired to play a local senior home, started our first tune at which a gentleman resident stood up to dance and fell, breaking his hip (as we later learned). I was sorry to hear of a resident breaking a hip due any excitement we may have caused. I guess I should be happy we weren't named in a liability lawsuit.

I would think the home would have insurance for this, it was not your fault nor should you be liable. Possibly the floor was slippery, possibly the senior had taken medication, may be non of the above. Most places where you would be playing music would have a liability coverage that should handle it. Not the bands responsibility. If you broke something carrying equipment in or out your fault, if the building burnt down because your equipment caught fire, your fault. Someone fell, not your fault.

[theCOOP]

Trying desperately to twist my mind in such a way as to understand how a band can be held responsible for anything other than property damage a member of the band might cause. But then the venue should be insured against that I would suspect.

I'd be more concerned that the venue, which is set up for these events, be insured to protect me and my equipment and the guests.

On a (maybe not similar note) I work for a major home improvement retailer and we require our independant installers to have all the proper insurance and workman's comp things set up. I don't feel this is the same thing.

[James Rankine]

[QUOTE=theCOOP;1467102]Trying desperately to twist my mind in such a way as to understand how a band can be held responsible for anything other than property damage a member of the band might cause. But then the venue should be insured against that I would suspect./QUOTE]

In my case the distinction is between a band that are hired to just play music and memebers of the audience are left up to their own devices, and a band that is hired to provide music and dancing which involves an element of orchestrating what folk on the dance floor are doing. In my example of water leaking, clearly if the plaster ceiling had collapsed injuring people the venue will have public liability insurance for this event. They mopped up the water and put those signs up you see all the time warning of a slippery floor, so they had done everything which was reasonably expected to prevent an injury which would be their defence. I'm not an expert in the fabric of the building, but I am in providing the music and dancing which is why it was our call to decide if and when it was safe to proceed with the dancing - the venue organisers had no input into this. You could think of countless situations where the actions of the band might lead to an injury over which the venue has no reasonable control. You could accidently kick over a mic stand into the front row, or perhaps you like to participate in a bit of crowd surfing :) I know it seems daft for those of us who are just a bunch of amateurs doing this for fun, but once you put yourselves out there you enter the world of the professionals, and band liability insurance is pretty standard stuff.

[Isaac Revard]

The Impressive Clergyman: Mawage. Mawage is wot bwings us togeder tooday. Mawage, that bwessed awangment, that dweam wifin a dweam...
[cut to Westley, Inigo, and Fezzik]
The Impressive Clergyman: And wuv, tru wuv, will fowow you foweva...
[cut to the trio again]
The Impressive Clergyman: So tweasure your wuv.
Prince Humperdinck: Skip to the end.
The Impressive Clergyman: Have you the wing?
[cut to the trio once more]
The Impressive Clergyman: ...and do you,Pwincess Buwwercup...
Prince Humperdinck: Man and wife. Say man and wife.
The Impressive Clergyman: Man an' wife.

[GTison]

I had a promoter ask for our Liability Insurance at least once. As I remember it, I asked it they would take a waver instead. That worked once. The other time it was all their electricity and sound. That was at a resort shopping center event. I could not think of any reasonable way for us to hurt anyone or anything. We had minimal electricity (if any) and what could happen? A banjo falling over. If you are running sound, I could see where speakers could fall or someone trip over a mic cord? But it seems kinda ludicrous. But in an age of suits that sue this kind of thing can be expected. These kinds of things really used to bother me when playing in the rink-dink bluegrass band. (another issue was making enough to be taxed)

[Trevor M]

[QUOTE=theCOOP;1467102]Trying desperately to twist my mind in such a way as to understand how a band can be held responsible for anything other than property damage a member of the band might cause. But then the venue should be insured against that I would suspect./QUOTE]

In my case the distinction is between a band that are hired to just play music and memebers of the audience are left up to their own devices, and a band that is hired to provide music and dancing which involves an element of orchestrating what folk on the dance floor are doing. In my example of water leaking, clearly if the plaster ceiling had collapsed injuring people the venue will have public liability insurance for this event. They mopped up the water and put those signs up you see all the time warning of a slippery floor, so they had done everything which was reasonably expected to prevent an injury which would be their defence. I'm not an expert in the fabric of the building, but I am in providing the music and dancing which is why it was our call to decide if and when it was safe to proceed with the dancing - the venue organisers had no input into this. You could think of countless situations where the actions of the band might lead to an injury over which the venue has no reasonable control. You could accidently kick over a mic stand into the front row, or perhaps you like to participate in a bit of crowd surfing :) I know it seems daft for those of us who are just a bunch of amateurs doing this for fun, but once you put yourselves out there you enter the world of the professionals, and band liability insurance is pretty standard stuff.

It must be more prevalent in the UK; we are also a ceilidh band, and we have a gig in February where the venue requires £5million in public liabilty insurance, they would also require a current health and safety policy and risk assessments if were a group of 5 or more people, Thankfully we are a 4-piece band!

[Tobin]

I'm just going to take a wild guess here, but I'll bet that such insurance requirements will be more and more common as time goes by. Even if the venue itself is insured (which it is, beyond all doubt), their insurers are looking to minimize their financial risk by any means possible. Spreading out the risk by requiring all the hired parties to be independently insured is a pretty easy way for them to do that.

You may not think that you, as a band, could cause any harm. But that doesn't matter. If someone gets injured and decides to sue, even if you had nothing to do with it, you may still end up getting dragged into it. This happens all the time to the company I work for. Granted, we are in a completely different industry (construction), but it works the same way when it comes to lawsuits. If another subcontractor on a construction project has an accident/injury and their worker sues, the lawyers will drag every company who was on site into the suit. Each company will have to fight their way out of it. And surprisingly, most companies will offer a sum to settle, even if they were 100% in the clear. Why? Because it's actually cheaper to pay your way out than to keep paying lawyers while the suit keeps going on into years of litigation.

It's a total racket, and it's well known across all industries.

So if you're insured for liability, your insurance company gets to fight that battle for you instead of you having to hire your own attorney. And the venue owner's insurance is stuck with a smaller portion of the damages or payout, since all the hired parties who were required to have insurance will be fighting for each of their own slice of it.

[Londy]

Just don't bring in the banjos and im sure you'll be fine.

[mlinkins]

Here in the NE corridor (specifically Philly), requiring bands to have liability insurance is quickly becoming the norm. I suspect there are regional differences, as some of your from the Mid-West, for example haven't run into this. I am just now trying to figure out whether to continue paying the occasional insurance fees for one-time events (usually about $90 for our duo), or purchasing insurance to cover us all the time. The prices we've gotten so far run from about $800-$1200 per year...pretty steep, I think. I hope to find better prices somewhere.

[Mark Gunter]

It's a CYA thing, and has to do with the management of the facility, not with "playing weddings" per se, so the response, "I play weddings and never heard of this" is not surprising. Also, the question of "what damage could the band do?" is not really relevant. Whether or not a band actually does damage may have little to do with the liability of a band getting sued for something done while playing at that facility in today's world. It sucks, but some property-management-companies/building-owners are sticklers about vendors carrying adequate insurance policies. Do unscrupulous managers sometimes get perks from vendors, even kick-backs? Of course this is true, but not always the case in these situations. Unfortunately, I have too much experience with this stuff, because I own a service business that deals with property management companies in Dallas for the past 20 years. I think it is unreasonable to require that from a band making one performance, but I'm not at all surprised. The wedding party has chosen a venue that requires it.

Some companies I work for require 1 mil, some require 6 mil. All require worker's comp. Some required non-owned auto liability. Etc., etc. The more reasonable ones are willing to waive the requirements for a one-off job. Maybe that would be an option?

[Timbofood]

Zeek,
That would be:
"TWoo wuv"
Nice reference btw!

As to the root of the thread, we are allowing the litigious nature of our time to invade any semblance of personal responsibility in public places. It's like blaming the auto industry for drunken driving, "if they hadn't made the car..." Sorry, all the get paperwork signed and notarized, CYA garbage turns my stomach.

[Londy]

I think Tobin is right. We live in a different world folks. I am just curious, has anyone checked into the cost of such insurance? Is $90 about right as mentioned above? What would you do to absorb that cost as a band now, charge that much more to the gig? Will this price you out of getting paid gigs if you have to charge more?

[Rick Crenshaw]

As someone who threw a wedding last year, we were required to buy insurance and there are companies which specialize in this.

My question would be: why should the vendor need liability insurance when the wedding most likely has already purchased it. Is it not the same event? The insurance covers just about anything that would happen during and sometimes after the event.

[Mark Gunter]

Rick, it may be that there cannot be a generalized answer to the question. You'd really have to ask the representative of the venue why they are doing this - the requirements would vary venue to venue, and depend on the management of a particular venue, not on some general rule or law. Some of these folk can be unreasonable. Mike Edgerton has already hinted at one possible answer, but who knows, without asking the people who are making this requirement? It's really a bunch of BS.

[Stephen Perry]

A very interesting question. The US doesn't really follow through on its social democratic leanings, expenses for injury recovery and property damage are very high for the injured, and folks do expect that when injured they will be able to be compensated. That's a volatile mix. With a lot of gray area. I spend all my legal time in the gray area (or I wouldn't be spending time there).

In this particular setting, where the band is employed by the group renting the venue, I have a more difficult time attaching liability to the venue.

Band doesn't show up - venue OK.

Group doesn't like band and there's a fight - venue OK.

Band breaks something or sets the grand piano on fire - insurance co. v. band. Looks like a minimal risk that insurance is for.

Band gets hurt in manner attributable to the venue. There's an issue. Band sues venue for injury that could have colorably been handled by their own insurance.


As to liability generally in a group, I highly suggest that those engaging in group business ventures consult someone or something about what they're doing. Here in TN, 61-1-202:

"(a) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (b), the association of two (2) or more persons to carry on as co-owners of a business for profit forms a partnership, whether or not the persons intend to form a partnership."

band = partnership, probably whether or not profit is realized.

Generally speaking, the partners are jointly and severally liable for partnership debts. The fiddler slips, his bow arches out over the worshiping fans, and impales an audience member through the eye, fatally. The family files a $5,000,000 negligence claim and wins $1,000,000. Every band member is on the hook for the whole $1,000,000.

Incorporation is easy. Do it. Keep up with the formalities. Just makes your partnership into a separate legal entity.

The corporation needs the insurance to hire an attorney to defend itself.

Do you really want to get stuck paying for someone to unravel this kind of thing? First case on a search for "partnership liability" w/p venue:


Concklin v. Holland, 138 S.W.3d 215 (Tenn. Ct. App. 2003)


Procedural Posture
Plaintiff parents challenged a decision from the Circuit Court for Shelby County (Tennessee), which granted defendant owner's motion to dismiss for failure to state a claim upon which relief could have been granted in a case alleging premises liability, partnership liability, negligent entrustment, ultra hazardous activity, and negligence per se based on violations of 21 U.S.C.S. § 856.

Overview
A young woman died after ingesting drugs sold at the owner's residence. The owner held title to the property jointly with another individual. The other individual had been selling illegal substances from the home. The parents then filed an action against the owner and the individual. After the owner's motion to dismiss was granted, the parents sought review. In affirming, there was no action for general premises liability because the parents failed to show actual control by the owner. Further, the owner was not liable under Tenn. Code Ann. § 61-1-101(6) (2002) because the distribution of drugs and alcohol was not for the purpose of or in the furtherance of the partnership. The parents did not state a claim for negligent entrustment because the property at issue was real property, not a chattel. Moreover, the owner was not able to entrust a co-owner of the property. Also, the use of alcohol and drugs did not constitute an ultra hazardous activity. Finally, there was no negligence per se based on a violation of 21 U.S.C.S. § 856 because there was no showing that the owner knowingly maintained the property for the purpose of distributing illegal drugs.

Outcome
The judgment of the trial court was affirmed.

[Tobin]

My question would be: why should the vendor need liability insurance when the wedding most likely has already purchased it. Is it not the same event? The insurance covers just about anything that would happen during and sometimes after the event.

It really depends on the policy that the venue has. Again, I'm no insurance expert, and can only speak from my experience in construction. But my company is a subcontractor who works for the general contractor on site (which seems similar to a band working for a venue, in a way). Even though the general contractor has insurance, and I'm working for him, often my company still has to purchase our own GL insurance for that project. It really depends on what policy is in place by the owner or GC, and whether it covers my company.

So it's possible that this wedding venue may have a policy that covers them and their facility, including any claims that might arise from their employees or their equipment. But when they hire a third-party, the insurance won't cover claims that arise from actions/damages of that third party. So instead of spending more money on a more inclusive blanket policy that would cover all potential third parties that are hired to work there, they just require all third parties to get their own insurance.

Or that would seem to make sense to me.

[Beanzy]

I'm not sure if you have the same thing in the US, but while there is often a requirement for public liability insurance for a business activity, you also need to think about whether professional indemnity insurance may be needed.
If your van breaks down enroute the wedding, or your PA gives up the ghost, band splits up that morning and you can't meet your contracted obligations to perform, guests get peed off and bride ends up in tears on the "best day of her life". When daddy decides to seek the costs you may want to be covered. I think a lot of people just wing that side of things & hope it never happens, but if you're regularly doing gigs where there could be knock on from no shows or cock-ups you may want to think about that too.

[James Rankine]

I'm not sure if you have the same thing in the US, but while there is often a requirement for public liability insurance for a business activity, you also need to think about whether professional indemnity insurance may be needed.
If your van breaks down enroute the wedding, or your PA gives up the ghost, band splits up that morning and you can't meet your contracted obligations to perform, guests get peed off and bride ends up in tears on the "best day of her life". When daddy decides to seek the costs you may want to be covered. I think a lot of people just wing that side of things & hope it never happens, but if you're regularly doing gigs where there could be knock on from no shows or cock-ups you may want to think about that too.

This is the reason our band won't do weddings - too much stress. It turns a hobby into a job, and that's not what it's all about.

[Rob Meldrum]

This is definitely going to become more and more common. I just wrote coverage for a high school saxophone teacher who gives private lessons and sets up about four recitals a year. $1 million in liability coverage needed for each event. We set it up on his renters insurance policy with a special business rider, cost him less than $50 per year. A band would require some variation on this. As others noted, there are companies that specialize in this.

Talk to an insurance claims adjuster sometime. If you have faith in human nature being universally good it will reduce your faith by a fair amount. All it takes is one money-hungry jerk to twist a way that your band caused him/her some pain and suffering and the insurance company will pay them a pretty nice amount to go away.

[MikeEdgerton]

Being in the insurance industry I get it, I just don't think that is what is going on here. I do believe this has everything to do with "approved" vendors. I'd be willing to bet they never asked their landscaper for proof of insurance or indemnification.

[Randi Gormley]

I think someone mentioned that this might be site-specific or related to the management company. We play schools on a regular basis and last year we walked into a gig to be told we needed not only liability insurance but we all had to prove we weren't wanted felons ... OK, most schools out here require background checks for employees and contractors/sub contractors, but there is some question about one-time visitors having to do so. When we asked about the insurance, we were told it was district policy. not so. We played another school in the district and weren't asked to provide anything. Our group has insurance of a sort because we put on concerts, but when we're not playing with the group, it hasn't come up. I'm going to bring this up to some of the other people I play with outside our usual group just to start the conversation.

[Jeff Hildreth]

Agree to the policy if they will pay the premium.

Opt out.
Whine to the bride.
Pony up.

Those seem to be the options.

I show my art work at a couple events and am required to have $1 Million in liability in case one of my 24 oz paintings falls from 6 ft and crushes some attendee's puntable dog. This allows me 12 events per year at $340. My insurance agent tells me that next year he can put a rider on my home owners policy and the coverage will be the same and the rate will drop to about $125 per year.

See your insurance hustler. If you have a band and everyone chips in, should be cheap.

[farmerjones]

I'll admit there's a difference between a band where they all have day jobs, and a band that plays for a living.

But in my head the same question keeps screaming: The band should simply ask, "How bad do you want us?" IOW, Throw it back at them.


this has everything to do with "approved" vendors.

This would apply to such a situation as well. "You want us or CDs?" There are other easier gigs. To me it's simply standing your ground.

[Timbofood]

Oh, Mike! We were off to such a nice start....
Seriously, I have had very few bad experiences with insurance folk. It's the less than fun aspect of it I hope I will never need to address. My band has played just about all of the venues I can imagine short of a monestary.
One of the best was a wedding on the shore of a small lake, microbrewer and, his bride! Copious quantities of excellent brew, hours of revelry! Headaches were all based on personal responsibility. Again, it's easier to scream lawsuit rather than own up to the fact that someone got stupid.

[Paul Kotapish]

It's not an uncommon practice for venues that rent out their facilities to third parties to require all vendors--caterers, bartenders, etc.--to carry their own insurance. It's a little unusual to require the band to have insurance, too, but certainly not unheard of, especially for museums, historic buildings, etc.

It's usually a relatively low-price item that you should be able to arrange via a phone call with your broker. Your contract/fee should get amended to reflect that added cost on your part.

Not really worth a big fight. If you want the gig, get the insurance and pass along the cost to the wedding party. If nobody will budge, you'll need to decide how much you want to play, and how much you'd like to become a part of the regular roster at this venue. Playing nice is often the more successful strategy in the long run.

[mlinkins]

The first time I had to purchase gig insurance, I had to find coverage at the last minute (on a Saturday, for a Sunday gig). I spent about 3 hours looking on line. I found plenty of vendors that offered event insurance, but no one who was available on a weekend. I finally found a company that specializes in event insurance for musicians and other entertainers. Their products can be purchased 24/7 and they have the highest standard of coverage available at what seemed to be the going rate for what we were looking for ($90-$110 per event). I was thrilled to find them because we were in a difficult situation. Their web address is http://rainprotection.net/.