Shapes of mandolin bodies (and holes)

[Moon]

Hello.

Someday I'd like to build my own instrument. I am curious why there are only 2-3 basic shapes for mandolins, A, F, and another (don't know shape name)

If I was making one from scratch, could I use artistic license and make the body a different shape?

I have seen sound holes in other than round, oval or F.

Are there physics behind the shapes, and is there a reason another shape can't be used? (I'm not talking radical, just different)

And while I wrote this my ADD asked, "Where did the names A-style and F style come from. Why is there no B? C?

[Kevin Stueve]

A style, F style, 2 point, 3 point, bent bowlback, bowlback, guitarbody ...

[George R. Lane]

Checkout Giourard and Sorenson, both builders make traditional as well as their own designs. Also look at Rigels. Just remember I suppose limits as to what you can do. This will be an interesting thread.

[Timbofood]

There are many body/sound hole configurations! As someone once told me, "If you can design it, you can build it! Or at least try"
If you want to make something you only see in your head, go for it, why not?
Your last question has,plagued mandolinkind since..........
Have a fun journey!

[pops1]

I believe Martin makes a B and a C model mandolin. One thing to think about if you change the body too much it will be hard to get a case unless you make your own. There are many versions of the F model with and without scrolls, modified scrolls, various points that sometime can be found on an A model. I have had a Woodley A with a very unique sound hole in a different place than most ovals and it was a wonderful sounding mandolin.

[Randi Gormley]

some of them have sound ports on the side, too ... check out the eye candy, you'll see all sorts of interesting instruments there.

[Zach Wilson]

Breedlove made a K shape. I don't know what happened to G, H, I and J.

[MikeEdgerton]

I believe Martin makes a B and a C model mandolin

In the Martin world the A & B had the same shape with different wood for the back and sides. The headstock shape was a little different as well but the body shape was the same. The C had the same shape as A and B and the same headstock shape as the C. It had a higher level of trim. The body shape was the same. The style E had the same shape as B and C but an even higher level of trim.

[JeffD]

If I was making one from scratch, could I use artistic license and make the body a different shape?


Of course. Check out some of Bill Bussmann's great designs.

http://www.oldwavemandolins.com/

[JeffD]

There is a good deal of physics involved, but there is also a good deal of history and tradition. How much you can move away from tradition while staying within the physics is limited only by your imagination, your aesthetic and artistic sense, and the market were you to try and sell your creations.

[MikeEdgerton]

There are a few common shapes of mandolins that are probably the most produced shapes in one variation or another over the years but they are not the only shapes. This is a quick compilation of shapes, it is by no means a definitive list. I will note that many of the current styles that folks think are new are variations on older styles.

[MikeEdgerton]

Continuing:

[MikeEdgerton]

And more:

[pointpergame]

1st) Isn't the "F" for Florentine? Perhaps it isn't that D and E are missing but rather that the "F" is an alphabetical interloper.

2nd) I always like to point people to the amazing book,

Structures: Or Why Things Don't Fall Down by J.e. Gordon

...because...the top of an arch-top mandolin is an arch and the history of "why things don't fall down" is about the physics of the structure that supports the arch. I've always thought the C-bouts on a violin and the points on an "F" are the equivalent of flying buttresses on a church. At any rate, the subject of Gordon's wonderful book is the same architecture and statics ( and common sense ) governing the tops and sides of mandolins.

[MikeEdgerton]

F is not for Florentine. Gibson used the Florentine designation on a banjo with scenes from Venice on it, as far as anyone has been able to show never on a mandolin. George Gruhn has referred to them as Florentine. This has been argued over and over. If F stands for Florentine why is the Harp guitar a model U? I suspect Orville built his A model and followed that with other shapes that didn't last. For example, the Lyre mandolin that was on the early labels. What was that letter designation? There wasn't one.

I'll note our FAQ even promotes this less than accurate description.

Here (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?61106-quot-F-quot-florentine-quot-A-quot) is a thread with a link to previous threads discussing the matter. If anyone can come up with Orville Gibson's shop notes, verified where he called it Florentine I'd accept it. It doesn't exist as far as I can see.

[MikeEdgerton]

Breedlove made a K shape. I don't know what happened to G, H, I and J.

I'll think that you'll find that the Breedlove K shape is named that because it's very similar to a mandolin shape used by a company that was in Chicago and built a similarly shaped mandolin. I could be wrong about that but the shape is pretty close and the name of that company was Kay.

[Tobin]

I agree that the F style mandolin was probably named as an alphabetical sequence with other shapes or models. This also explains how H is a mandola, K is a mandocello, L is a guitar, etc. Missing letters are probably from models that never succeeded.

[MikeEdgerton]

I agree that the F style mandolin was probably named as an alphabetical sequence with other shapes or models. This also explains how H is a mandola, K is a mandocello, L is a guitar, etc. Missing letters are probably from models that never succeeded.

Exactly. That makes sense.

[Moon]

Wow. I don't usually reap so many answers... So you're saying I could make it any shape? Not that I have anything in mind, but being an artist myself, I think it would be fun too come up with a shape and design of one's own. I looked at the kits to build, and you have a choice of A or F... I think outside the alphabet (in this case). Not that I'd want it, but a heart shape, a square, a star...a moon? I wonder if they would work... Of course, the instrument has to be comfortable to hold and to sound good. I wonder if a star shaped mandolin had been tried and it sounded like crap.. or any shape. There may be a valid reason companies settled on the A and F. I'm wondering if there is a formula, x number of square inches needs to be in the body, sound hole should not exceed X% of face of mandolin... . Maybe having small areas like points of a star impede sound flow, who knows..? I found a calculator for figuring fret spacing, I wondered if there was a luthier's formula chart, book, etc.

[MikeEdgerton]

And more:

[Mark Gunter]

Looks like a couple of seals for soundholes on that second pic, a little weird that, so I guess it's in good company with those others, LOL. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder . . . I just can't see it there.

[pointpergame]

Thanks for the elucidation on the "Florentine." A sequence with long dead members makes some sense.

The flash responses with mando images is impressive....that upside down heart also requires some beholding. That is a heart, right?

[Moon]

I like the heart, but it looks upside down. The sound hole too. I wonder why not made the other way... You'd just have to use a flat on the face tailpiece.

[Moon]

Incidentally, while looking for the answer to the question, I ran across this:

"There are very many styles and varieties of mandolins made by very many manufacturers and independent luthiers. But, typically referred to in the USA are those manufactured by the Gibson Co. (or patterned after the Gibsons).

Prior to about 1900, the typical mandolin was the Neapolitan style. The oldest surviving instrument was made by the Vinaccia family of Naples, Italy around the mid-1700's. This type of mandolin has a bowl-shaped back and a top made from a flat piece of wood bent over a hot poker forming a slight kink or ridge about where the bridge fits. This kink is important, and is what marks the advancement of luthiery credited to the Neapolitans, for it strengthens the top enough to withstand higher tension strings.

Then around 1900, Orville Gibson of Kalamazoo, Michigan created two new styles of mandolins. Inspired by the way violins are constructed, he made his mandolins with a carved back (much flatter than the bowl-back of the Neapolitans, but carved to shape, none the less) and, importantly, the top carved in an arched shape. The plainer of the two styles he called his "A" style - it has a simple round teardrop shape profile to the body and a simple plain peghead. His other fancier style he called his "F" - it has a fancy body profile with projecting points and scroll and the peghead is likewise of a fancy shape. [It is said that these designations were short for "Artist" and "Florentine", but the names are confusing because they have been applied by the Gibson Co. and other makers to various other styles of mandolins. The letter designations, A and F, have been more consistently applied to the styles described.]

A few years later, some moneymen (and Orville) formed the Gibson Co. and were very successful in manufacturing mandolins, guitars and later banjos. The Gibson Co. used the following letter designations for its instruments:

A plain bodied mandolins
F scroll bodied mandolins
H mandolas
K mandocellos
J mandobass
L plain style guitars
O fancy style guitars"

I also ran across the "C" model.. it is the one with "cat ears" at the top.

[allenhopkins]

Hello. Someday I'd like to build my own instrument. I am curious why there are only 2-3 basic shapes for mandolins, A, F, and another...

You're kidding, right? There are dozens of shapes in which mandolin-family instruments have been built (including a watermelon slice, and a slice of Swiss cheese (http://www.oldwavemandolins.com)). I doubt there are other Western stringed instruments, except perhaps the solid-body electric guitar, offered in such a variety of silhouettes.


...If I was making one from scratch, could I use artistic license and make the body a different shape?...

Fear not the Luthier Police, showing up at your wood-shop to enforce stylistic orthodoxy. You wanta make one that looks like an avocado or a Zeppelin, go for it.


And while I wrote this my ADD asked, "Where did the names A-style and F style come from. Why is there no B? C?

The shorthand designations of "A-model" and "F-model" came from Gibson's usage. Moon has covered it well above. And, the only mandolin that I know of, that Gibson officially labeled "Florentine," was their EM-200 solid-body -- and it was a two-point, no scroll at all. Go figure.

[Moon]

I know there are other shapes, I mean why are just two really popular? Does their shape give them better sound? How come the cheese slice isn't popular? (because it's ugly, but as an example, it seems just 2 or 3 basic styles are the norm.)

[Jess L.]

Fear not the Luthier Police, showing up at your wood-shop to enforce stylistic orthodoxy. You wanta make one that looks like an avocado or a Zeppelin, go for it.

:)) :grin: Right on! :)

If I were to build a mandolin I'd want it to be shaped such that when I'm sitting down the mandolin would sit on my right leg just like my electric guitar does, without having to fuss with the mandolin to keep it from scooting around all the time. I hate to say it but, for me, the standard solid-body Strat-style electric guitar body shape is nearly ideal for stability and ease of playing, it just sits there and doesn't try to squirm away like mandolins do. Of course the guitar weighs a ton too, and it isn't top-heavy like my mandolin or some of the old 1890s thin-rim banjos I used to have, so the Strat body shape doesn't even need a strap, it's very stable as-is. So... if I were to build a custom mandolin... it'd probably end up looking like a slightly-scaled-down electric guitar shape... reinventing the wheel no doubt... don't know if that would be acoustically-good... maybe, maybe not. Would definitely further confuse non-musician audiences :whistling: who sometimes already think mandolins are guitars or ukuleles. :disbelief:

[Mandoplumb]

I agree that the F style mandolin was probably named as an alphabetical sequence with other shapes or models. This also explains how H is a mandola, K is a mandocello, L is a guitar, etc. Missing letters are probably from models that never succeeded.

I would be inclined to think Gibson just pulled the letters (and numbers) out of the air. There doesn't seem to be any method to their madness and to me that is typical of Gibson.

[Tobin]

I know there are other shapes, I mean why are just two really popular? Does their shape give them better sound? How come the cheese slice isn't popular? (because it's ugly, but as an example, it seems just 2 or 3 basic styles are the norm.)

The two main shapes are popular because they are traditional. Gibson did some heavy, heavy marketing back in the early 1900s to establish their mandolin design as the way mandolins should look. And it worked, insofar as the mandolin orchestras and mandolin craze of the early 20th century went. But then mandolins fell out of style.

It was really Bill Monroe who popularized it again. The F-style mandolin shape has been, and continues to be today, the most sought-after shape, due to generations of players wanting that look. And let's be honest: the points and scrolls on an F-style mandolin are very artistic and reminiscent of an idealized past. They are classic looking. People just love the shape and the tradition behind it. A styles are popular because they are simple and elegant (not to mention cheaper, LOL).

But that doesn't, of course, mean that other shapes can't be used. Previous examples in this thread illustrate that quite clearly. These new shapes just haven't caught on in the mandolin world because they aren't traditional. And quite frankly, I think most of them lack imagination. The electric guitar world has already gone through the weird shape phase, and was popularized by rock stars who wanted the freakiest-looking guitar (hey, I had both an Explorer and flying-V electric guitars in the '80s so I could look just like my Metallica heroes).

The problem is, mandolin players by and large don't care for that. The type of music most associated with mandolin playing is traditional music, and most mandolin players want a traditional instrument. And I hate to say it like this, but I think it also has to do with the fact that mandolin players tend to be older and more mature than the hordes of teenage guitar players. Freaky shapes work for guitar because teens like a wild and crazy look to match their wild and crazy music. Older folks who play traditional music think it's just silly. (OK, there were lots of generalizations in there, but I think there's truth to it.) Not to mention the fact that electric guitar shapes don't affect acoustic sound, whereas mandolins are primarily acoustic instruments.

If you want to create new and bizarre mandolin shapes, go for it! You'll have a very limited market, and a lot of people will frown on strange shapes, but you might just stumble on something that "clicks" with people. There's no way to know unless you try. Of course, you'll also have to do a lot of experimentation on how they sound, and tweak the design accordingly.

[MikeEdgerton]

Incidentally, while looking for the answer to the question, I ran across this:... The plainer of the two styles he called his "A" style - it has a simple round teardrop shape profile to the body and a simple plain peghead. His other fancier style he called his "F" - it has a fancy body profile with projecting points and scroll and the peghead is likewise of a fancy shape. [It is said that these designations were short for "Artist" and "Florentine", but the names are confusing because they have been applied by the Gibson Co. and other makers to various other styles of mandolins. The letter designations, A and F, have been more consistently applied to the styles described....

Look, that has been around for years. It doesn't make sense that A stands for something and F stands for something but H, K, U, etc. don't. It was a guess on someone's part. There's no documentation from Orville that supports it. You're on the largest repository of mandolin information in the world. I hate seeing misinformation taken as fact. if anyone could ever prove that Orville named those style bodies those names I'd be ecstatic. Thus far there is no proof.

[MikeEdgerton]

I would be inclined to think Gibson just pulled the letters (and numbers) out of the air. There doesn't seem to be any method to their madness and to me that is typical of Gibson.

Actually there was some method to Gibson's madness at times. The A and F style existed before the company by the way. The letters used after the company started fall into two camps. Those that are descriptive and those that are not. The A, F, H, K, L, U (these letters might have existed in Orville's work) don't describe anything I can see. On the other hand the GB, MB, RB, and TB designations do. Like any manufacturer you have to have a way of cataloging the items you sell. Gibson was just doing what companies did then. Using the alphabet as a designation works for a while until you create more than 26 products.

[CES]

You can make any design you can dream up. Whether it sounds good or not will likely depend on your sound chamber and how well your top vibrates (Disclaimer: I'm not a luthier).

I tend to like different designs. I'm a fan of Rigel's offerings and would like to someday own a CT model, but I haven't stumbled onto one when I had the disposable funds yet, and I'm to a point where I pretty much refuse to buy without playing except in the rarest of situations, which is admittedly limiting. I own a pancake model, a Mandobird, and a National RM-1. Steve Sorensen and Max Girouard are making some awesome looking and sounding non-traditional mandolins. That said, I think the various fruit/food designs are cool, but can't imagine ever buying one. James Condino's Cricket model is very cool, and I probably would buy one of those if it sounded/played as good as it looked (they may well, I've never actually played one). I also like some of the unusual finishes (blue burst, green burst, and really like Weber's Black Ice).

Bill Monroe set the standard with his F style Loar, and that style (and the scroll-less A style variation) are what sell the best. Mandolin is already a small niche market when compared to guitar, and "unique" designs shrink that market further. So, if you want to make a living building mandolins, there are definitely some considerations there. If you're building for fun, do whatever you'd like!

Oh, and Roger Siminoff's book will likely answer many of your Questions regarding measurements, graduations, etc...

[Jim Garber]

There are a couple more shape variations to consider.

Bandolim (Brazilian) and Gelas (France)

142928

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[MikeEdgerton]

Post them as you find them. I just ran through what I remembered seeing. There are a few I can't find.

[KEB]

Another thing to think about in creating a mandolin is what if it sounds lousy with the new configuration. You just spent months and hundreds hand carving something that is now essentially kindling.

[Jim Garber]

More variants:

Howe-Orme Mandolinetto:
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Hougaard Hardanger Mandolin:
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Violaline - JTL:
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Anchor Mandolin:
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?????
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Viennese College of Music:
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Another ????:
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Lumpy:
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[Magnus Geijer]

Some of my oddballs. I stick with technical specs (carving thickness, scale, etc) moderately close to the standards, so I don't run much of a risk of things coming out sounding like wet mud. Has worked pretty well so far.

142946142947142948142949

Thanks,

Magnus

[Barry Wilson]

The more I see those 2 points, the more I want one. Though Magnus that first electric is very very cool

[j. condino]

I'll think that you'll find that the Breedlove K shape is named that because it's very similar to a mandolin shape used by a company that was in Chicago and built a similarly shaped mandolin. I could be wrong about that but the shape is pretty close and the name of that company was Kay.

Nice idea, but the big man told me that the K designation was much more simple: K as in its my company and I'm Kim Breedlove! The shape origins come from a very similar ( and extremely uncomfortable) shaped guitar that they made at the time and that after hand carving over 200 traditional F5 scrolls for another manufacturer, he never wanted to carve a scroll again and needed a design that was easy to manufacture.

Trying to build a nice mandolin is a completely different conversation from trying to manufacture them every day for a larger market utilizing other laborers. Once they are built, trying to sell them in a market that is for the most part very traditional is a whole different story.

[Magnus Geijer]

Trying to build a nice mandolin is a completely different conversation from trying to manufacture them every day for a larger market utilizing other laborers. Once they are built, trying to sell them in a market that is for the most part very traditional is a whole different story.

Indeed. If I was building with the intent to sell, I'd be doing As and Fs.

Thanks,

Magnus

[Moon]

"
If you want to create new and bizarre mandolin shapes, go for it! You'll have a very limited market, and a lot of people will frown on strange shapes, but you might just stumble on something that "clicks" with people. There's no way to know unless you try. Of course, you'll also have to do a lot of experimentation on how they sound, and tweak the design accordingly."

I'm not interested in selling anything. It would be for fun. Anything I do I do for fun, no other reason. :-)

[crisscross]

Speaking of oddballs: has the Giacomel already been shown? Might be conidered an F-style, but a heavily truncated one!
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[Genesis]

Hello.

If I was making one from scratch, could I use artistic license and make the body a different shape?


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[Caleb]

Some of my oddballs. I stick with technical specs (carving thickness, scale, etc) moderately close to the standards, so I don't run much of a risk of things coming out sounding like wet mud. Has worked pretty well so far.

142946142947142948142949

Thanks,

MagnusThose are very cool. Nice work.