update me on Octave mandolins

[darylcrisp]

i have not did a search, just wanting to understand the differences of Octave mandolins vs mandolas vs regular mandolin.

with the thread on Sierra Hull's song and her playing that beautiful Octave mando, just wanting to know how all these compare, not looking to buy one as i don't have time to add another instrument, but they sure are nice sounding.

does the Octave mando have/use the same fingerings as our standard mando(its just a true octave lower?)

or is that the mandola?

thanks
d

this one looks neat, unique, sounds really nice
http://gregboyd.com/instrument_detail.html?instrument_key=1917

i can't get TheMandolinStore site to work to check inventory, i'm at work so it may be our computer.
these look interesting, sound fantastic.

[bigskygirl]

Hi Daryl, yes the octave is tuned same as mandolin just down an octave amd uses the same fingering. I had a friend of mine build one a few years ago and it's fun to play but I honestly don't spend much time on it. It's not an F-style rather more like a bouzouki I guess with a round sound hole like a guitar.

It sounds nice and plays nice but it's quiet like a gutar. I take it to my weekly jam for us to play but we really have to tone our sound down like when the guitars play. I played that mando at Greg's and it is nice but I prefer the F-style octaves.

There is a guy in the local area who incorporates the octave into his acoustic set and it's really nice, he plays it like a guitar and uses alot of barre chords and up the neck olaying because of the scale.

[darylcrisp]

so looking in on the Weber site, appears they are offered in 20" and 22" scale. so approaching a small guitar scale more or less.

are the string sets firm feeling when fretting, like a standard mandolin, or more loose in feel like a guitar?

how to decide between on the scale 20" or 22", what would be different in real use?

for those who play/own Octaves: do you find regular mandolin tunes sound really good in that deeper octave tone? or do you find yourself playing a different type song with the Octave?

take note of the body difference in the Bridger and the Vintage(or Gallatin) Octave:
http://webermandolins.com/instruments/octave-mandos/a-style-octave-mandolins1

of course i'm drawn to the more expensive Bridger design with oval hole(appears to be what Sierra H. is using in the new video).

i love Baritone guitars....................oh no, here i go.

if memory serves, Dennis V and i were emailing on a mandolin months ago and he suggested i might really enjoy an Octave-he knows my guitar background and such, i dissed it off at that time.

i do like "dropped and modal type tunings/tones"............a lot
d

[bigskygirl]

PM sent

[darylcrisp]

PM sent

thanks!
d

[aphillips]

Will a visual help? Left to right....
Mandocello
Mandola
Octave Mandolin 22"
Mandolin
142434

[bigskygirl]

Also, I really like the guitar shaped octaves. Ben Winship plays the heck out of one and Northfield is going to make them...

Heres a (old) video of Ben on an octave with Thomas Sneed (two of my favorite mando players).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7TXRzomfCrE

[multidon]

With octave mandolin the fingerings are not really the same. Because of the wider fret spacing you find yourself using your pinkie a lot more than on regular mandolin. It's more like guitar fingering technique, with each finger taking on its own fret, in contrast to regular mandolin where your fingers are covering two frets each. It takes a bit of effort, but it's great for building up that fourth finger.

The tension should be more or less similar to mandolin, since it has heavier gauge strings. I prefer the 20 inch scale for ease of play. It is kind of like a short Gibson scale versus a longer Martin scale on guitars. The so called standard string sets are made for the long scale instruments, and in my opinion too light for the short instruments. I use light mandola strings on mine and they work quite well.

In Europe they call the octave mandolin an octave mandola and that causes some confusion. What we call a mandola in the USA is tuned CGDA like a viola. It has a 16 or 17 inch scale and the fingering technique is closer to regular mandolin.

There are other differences in technique. Many mandolinists use four finger chop chords, for example, but these are impossible on octave mandolin. Open string chords are the rule here, or barres. I use mine mostly for melody. Some songs just sound better with the deeper tone. If you switch back and forth you will soon develop an instinct for which songs sound better played on the octave.

Hope this helps.

[CES]

I have a Weber Hyalite OM that I bought a couple of years ago. It's a totally different instrument from mando. Yes, it's tuned an octave below, but because of the scale length and fifths tuning 4 finger chords are impossible (unless you're Mike Marshall, and I'm not). That said, I really like the thing. I've come close to selling or trading it a couple of times, which leads to me playing it more, and I just can't get rid of the thing. Mine's a 22 incher, and it's better suited for rhythm, IMO. I find the string tension loser/closer to guitar than that felt on mando. A 20 inch scale may be better suited for lead playing, but the 22 incher works fine for that, too. In fact, when I think about moving it along, I play the Prelude to the Cello Suite, and I just can't part with it.

I've gotta say, it impresses the heck out of me that someone of Sierra Hull's physical stature can make an OM sing so sweetly with her tiny hands. The pinky really gets a workout if you try to play your mando songs on it. Girl's got a God given gift/talent that I certainly don't have.

I would never discourage someone from adding a mando family instrument to their stable, and I don't think I'll ever part with my Hyalite unless it's for a Zouk or Mandocello, but it does occupy a sonic space similar to guitar. With our youth praise band I play bass, mando, OM, guitar, and occasionally (rarely) banjo. It's nice to have the OM in my arsenal, but, honestly, the guitar can do most of what OM can do (minus the double course sound, of course). So, if you're really Jonesing, get a Trinity College or Goldtone to see if it clicks for you before you really invest in one...and make sure you approach it like a totally different instrument. I think you'll love it, but it's a different sort of commitment...

[darylcrisp]

Will a visual help? Left to right....
Mandocello
Mandola
Octave Mandolin 22"
Mandolin
142434

Adam
thanks for the picture, that definitely helped for getting an idea of size. no shops local carry an Octave(or Mandola that i've found), so anything of these sorts would be shipped in.

d

[darylcrisp]

Hi Daryl, yes the octave is tuned same as mandolin just down an octave amd uses the same fingering. I had a friend of mine build one a few years ago and it's fun to play but I honestly don't spend much time on it. It's not an F-style rather more like a bouzouki I guess with a round sound hole like a guitar.

It sounds nice and plays nice but it's quiet like a gutar. I take it to my weekly jam for us to play but we really have to tone our sound down like when the guitars play. I played that mando at Greg's and it is nice but I prefer the F-style octaves.

There is a guy in the local area who incorporates the octave into his acoustic set and it's really nice, he plays it like a guitar and uses alot of barre chords and up the neck olaying because of the scale.

thanks BSG
these things are what i need to know/wanted to know.
d

[darylcrisp]

With octave mandolin the fingerings are not really the same. Because of the wider fret spacing you find yourself using your pinkie a lot more than on regular mandolin. It's more like guitar fingering technique, with each finger taking on its own fret, in contrast to regular mandolin where your fingers are covering two frets each. It takes a bit of effort, but it's great for building up that fourth finger.

The tension should be more or less similar to mandolin, since it has heavier gauge strings. I prefer the 20 inch scale for ease of play. It is kind of like a short Gibson scale versus a longer Martin scale on guitars. The so called standard string sets are made for the long scale instruments, and in my opinion too light for the short instruments. I use light mandola strings on mine and they work quite well.

In Europe they call the octave mandolin an octave mandola and that causes some confusion. What we call a mandola in the USA is tuned CGDA like a viola. It has a 16 or 17 inch scale and the fingering technique is closer to regular mandolin.

There are other differences in technique. Many mandolinists use four finger chop chords, for example, but these are impossible on octave mandolin. Open string chords are the rule here, or barres. I use mine mostly for melody. Some songs just sound better with the deeper tone. If you switch back and forth you will soon develop an instinct for which songs sound better played on the octave.

Hope this helps.

Don
that was excellent, you hit the nail on the head in what i'm attempting to find out.
sometimes one doesn't know quite what to ask because you just don't know.
d

[darylcrisp]

I have a Weber Hyalite OM that I bought a couple of years ago. It's a totally different instrument from mando. Yes, it's tuned an octave below, but because of the scale length and fifths tuning 4 finger chords are impossible (unless you're Mike Marshall, and I'm not). That said, I really like the thing. I've come close to selling or trading it a couple of times, which leads to me playing it more, and I just can't get rid of the thing. Mine's a 22 incher, and it's better suited for rhythm, IMO. I find the string tension loser/closer to guitar than that felt on mando. A 20 inch scale may be better suited for lead playing, but the 22 incher works fine for that, too. In fact, when I think about moving it along, I play the Prelude to the Cello Suite, and I just can't part with it.

I've gotta say, it impresses the heck out of me that someone of Sierra Hull's physical stature can make an OM sing so sweetly with her tiny hands. The pinky really gets a workout if you try to play your mando songs on it. Girl's got a God given gift/talent that I certainly don't have.

I would never discourage someone from adding a mando family instrument to their stable, and I don't think I'll ever part with my Hyalite unless it's for a Zouk or Mandocello, but it does occupy a sonic space similar to guitar. With our youth praise band I play bass, mando, OM, guitar, and occasionally (rarely) banjo. It's nice to have the OM in my arsenal, but, honestly, the guitar can do most of what OM can do (minus the double course sound, of course). So, if you're really Jonesing, get a Trinity College or Goldtone to see if it clicks for you before you really invest in one...and make sure you approach it like a totally different instrument. I think you'll love it, but it's a different sort of commitment...

again, just excellent info that tells me what i wanted to know.
thanks for the reply!
d

[aphillips]

One thing that I find is that I have to think a lot less on the octave mandolin than the mandola. Yes the note spacing is a lot further apart than on the mandolin, but I can pretty easily use my pinky to play notes that I would usually use the ring finger for on the mandolin.

With the mandola, the spacing is much closer to the mandolin, BUT it is easy to forget what instrument I'm on and blow some notes. I can easily play the same fiddle tunes on my mandola as my mandolin, but they are in the wrong key (a fifth down) if I'm going to play with people.

That being said I love the sound of both instruments!

[darrylicshon]

I really like the octave mandolin but 20" i used to have a cheaper oval hole one , it was a blast to play until it got destroyed. I really like the weber 20" but don't see me coming up with anougth spare cash anytime soon. Probably will get another cheaper one first.

A few years ago all i did was play electric solidbody octave mandolin 5 string with my band, it does play a lot like a guitar, and mine sounded like one my avatar is an om that i built. My drummer could hardly tell when i switched from guitar to om.

I think it would be a great addition to anyones collection.

[Dagger Gordon]

Hi Daryl,

I'm sure you're aware there is a section on the forum here called CBOM, which stands for citterns, bouzoukis and octave mandolins.
For the most part it tends to be to do with Celtic music, but not exclusively.

I play both mandolin and octave mandolin and I use them rather differently.

I think you are probably coming at this from a bluegrass perspective, but you might be interested in what Tim O'Brien used to do with a 'bouzouki' a few years ago, when it seemed to be his main instrument at one point. He seems to play mostly guitar now

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vQCAnQaxQEs

[ukrobbiej]

I am a guitarist myself, playing in mostly open turnings such as Dadgad and csus2. I was drawn towards getting my Weber Yellowstone octave after being leant a flat top OM (made by Tobin). I used it mainly as a rhythmic instrument in a folk band, but have recently set up a mandolin orchestra where I am now using it both as a melodic instrument and for rhythmic duties, supply the harmony.

I have to say, I find the scale length of mine, at 22" to be a little challenging. From my guitar playing my little finger is probably already quite strong, but yes it does get an incredible work out, but then I really love playing Bach and other Baroque music, which certainly gets your fingers moving.

If I were buying again I would definitely plump for a 20" if you intend to play tunes. I would definitely by an arch top Weber again- the sound is just devine.

You can also tune the OM to GDAD which gives you a sound very similar to Dadgad. Well, it would do because it is very similar to the top 4 strings.

Good luck with you research :)

Robbie

[darylcrisp]

Hi Daryl,

I'm sure you're aware there is a section on the forum here called CBOM, which stands for citterns, bouzoukis and octave mandolins.
For the most part it tends to be to do with Celtic music, but not exclusively.

I play both mandolin and octave mandolin and I use them rather differently.

I think you are probably coming at this from a bluegrass perspective, but you might be interested in what Tim O'Brien used to do with a 'bouzouki' a few years ago, when it seemed to be his main instrument at one point. He seems to play mostly guitar now

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vQCAnQaxQEs

I must admit I did not know this. I rarely veer from the General/classifieds/builders & repair.
thank you very much for pointing this out to me. I will be spending some time there for sure.
d

[darylcrisp]

I am a guitarist myself, playing in mostly open turnings such as Dadgad and csus2. I was drawn towards getting my Weber Yellowstone octave after being leant a flat top OM (made by Tobin). I used it mainly as a rhythmic instrument in a folk band, but have recently set up a mandolin orchestra where I am now using it both as a melodic instrument and for rhythmic duties, supply the harmony.

I have to say, I find the scale length of mine, at 22" to be a little challenging. From my guitar playing my little finger is probably already quite strong, but yes it does get an incredible work out, but then I really love playing Bach and other Baroque music, which certainly gets your fingers moving.

If I were buying again I would definitely plump for a 20" if you intend to play tunes. I would definitely by an arch top Weber again- the sound is just devine.

You can also tune the OM to GDAD which gives you a sound very similar to Dadgad. Well, it would do because it is very similar to the top 4 strings.

Good luck with you research :)

Robbie

thanks for this info Robbie. DADGAD is one of my favorite guitar tunings, this has suddenly become quite interesting. also the mention of the scale length is important to me as well.
looks like I'm going to be doing some research for the next couple days.
d

[boombox]

Interesting thread and very helpful. I love the sound of an octave as played by people like Sarah Jarosz and John Doyle, but when I tried one, it went back on the rack almost immediately after I tried to play a regular F chord as I would on mando - that 5 fret stretch killed me (very short pinky!). Looks like I may have to try another, but in short scale if I can find one in the UK. The DADGAD variant sounds interesting too.

[Bertram Henze]

...when I tried one, it went back on the rack almost immediately after I tried to play a regular F chord as I would on mando - that 5 fret stretch killed me (very short pinky!).

Doing the impossible can lead to no good. The OM is not just another mandolin, it's a completely different instrument. Forget your closed chords, embrace open chords (the F chord I do is 2301) and increased left arm motion. You can even do without much more pinky usage if you tweak the tunes (as here on 21" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bItMBKIyJlM)).
Play less notes, play more doublestops and let the instrument's sustain sing for you.

[Dagger Gordon]

Many Celtic players use variations on the mandolin tuning.
Irish bouzoukis players generally use GDad. I use ADae which I find more suitable for Scottish music, as does Murdo Cameron of the group Daimh. There are certainly other variations.

Also be aware that other cultures use all sorts of different tunings on related instruments. I have heard of a bouzouki played in GCgc (which I understand might be 'Kurdish' tuning). Check out the French bouzouki, guitar and oud player Titi Robin.

This could be the start of a very slippery slope, Daryl ...

[foldedpath]

I play a Weber Yellowstone F octave mandolin, and you can get an idea of the size difference in my avatar image at the left of this post, with the scroll compared to my Lebeda mandolin. It's an octave down but not quite twice as large in size. Thank goodness.
;)

Mine is a 22" scale, which is a stretch when using standard mandolin fingering, but I can handle it as long as I'm not playing for hours. The advantage of the 22" scale compared to 20" is a bit more sustain, at the cost of more finger reach. The sustain compared to mandolin is important to me because I use my OM mostly for the slower marches and airs in Irish/Scottish traditional tunes, where sustain helps support the music.

There is still plenty of sustain in a 20" scale OM compared to a mandolin or even a mandola. I'm just looking for that sweet spot between scale length/sustain and what my hands can manage, and 22" does it for me. When I need to play the faster dance tunes or trickier fingerings, I just grab my mandolin instead. Your mileage may vary based on the types of tunes you play, hand size, etc.

Here's a clip of Sierra Hull playing an F-hole Weber OM, which is interesting to compare to the sound of the oval-hole Weber OM she's playing on that recent live performance clip of "Black River" (with allowances made for use of capo, different mics and acoustics, etc.):


7lewRHqq7zI

[allenhopkins]

Octave mandolin is an instrument that has so far avoided standardization, in terms of size and scale length. There are shorter-scale instruments, around 20 inches, and there are "bouzoukis" tuned as octave mandolins with scale lengths three inches longer -- like my old Flatiron 3K "pancake" style.

Going from mandolin, it could make sense to get one of the shorter-scale instruments, such as the Asian-made Trinity College or Gold Tone. Even with a "short" scale, what other posters have written regarding fingering differences holds true, but it's accentuated when you're playing one of the long-scale OM's.

Concur in recommending the CBOM forum (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?50-CBOM) down the page.

[darylcrisp]

many thanks for the excellent and to the point replies.
d

[Ivan Kelsall]

The sound of this GBOM played by Sarah Jarosz is sublime - i can feel GBOMAS coming on ,however,i can't feel any cash coming on to support it,:(
Ivan;)
https://youtu.be/kdM89_88cdM?list=PLAC60027E6AF3BAD3

[boombox]

The sound of this GBOM played by Sarah Jarosz is sublime - i can feel GBOMAS coming on ,however,i can't feel any cash coming on to support it,:(
Ivan;)
https://youtu.be/kdM89_88cdM?list=PLAC60027E6AF3BAD3
Yes, I can agree with that. :)

[terzinator]

Yeah, Sarah Jarosz is freaking awesome on the OM. She's the #1 reason for my OMAS.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpNWetJQDwE

[aphillips]

Yep - these videos are the reason I am already 1 year into Fletcher's waiting list.... still excited!

[Steve Ostrander]

I have only owned my Trinity College OM for about 6 weeks. 20-3/4" scale. I have found the string tension, sound and feel to be more like a mandola than a mandolin, which makes sense. It is not a substitute for the mandolin for me, and I have only found 3 songs out of 80 in my repertoire where I prefer it. I'm sure I'll find more as time goes by. That said, I do enjoy playing it, but I tend to play it more when I practice by myself than when I play in a trio. I definitely prefer it over the TC mandola I bought a couple years ago.

[tmsweeney]

I have been plying octave for some time, and generally prefer it to mandolin as I started out on guitar, so yes as folks have already said it is tuned the same, but fingerings and chord shapes can be quite different. I do play a lot of fiddle tunes on the octave and while it doesn't always translate the same as a mandolin, to me it's quite interesting. It can be hard to compete with guitars and fiddles with octaves sometime, but my Weber Gallatin (20") oval hole does pretty good. Depending on the strings it can get a little muddy at times, I currently use the John Pearse Octave set. I also have a Weber Gallatin oval hole mandola, and the fingering is entirely different, so the tunes don't always sound the same as on mandolin ( depending on how you transcribe). So I find myself playing mandolin chords on mandola and mandola chords on mandolin at times during jams. The lower end flat top (octaves and mandolas) are good to "try" it out with out a hefty investment, but for better tone its worth the couple of thousand for a carved top. Here's a youtube with both.

SAcHXuqc2rE

[Linds]

Yep - these videos are the reason I am already 1 year into Fletcher's waiting list.... still excited!

Oh wow - how long is his wait list these days? I feel lucky - I only had to wait about 10 months for mine!

The wait will be worth it. Mine is the most lovely thing I've ever played. I just wish my skills did it justice!

[Barry Wilson]

The Gold Tone is 22 3/4 scale.

[Denman John]

I recently played a wonderful GBOM built by Jayson Bowerman at Wintergrass and really liked it! It played and sounded great when chording and it just looked so cool! One thing I noticed was the neck/body joining. My OM is teardrop shaped and getting all the way up to the 22nd fret is easily accessible. The GBOM body met at the 12th fret I think and after that playing higher up wasn't as comfortable for me. I'm sure I could adapt if I had to, but I'm happy with what I have.

Sarah Jarosz is such a fantastic player. I'm sure she could make anything sound good, but that GBOM (Fletcher Brock?) above is well suited for her playing style. Austin Clark also makes excellent GBOMs and I like his styling.

The last month has seen some nice OMs listed in the classified. Lots of choices if you are in the market.

John