Flat back giusepi venzana mandolin number 117 1949 napoli

[Wendywoo]

Hi, my father died last year and he left this mandolin. It seems in very good order, 8 string. flat back. Can anyone advise on its popularity as we cannot find information about it on the net. Makers label inside and it was sold by Paul Beucher in Paris. ( my dad was french). Sorry for spelling errors in the name!

[allenhopkins]

There's quite a bit about Giuseppe Venzana on the internet; this (http://mandolines.blogspot.com/2006/11/stridente-tedesco-venzana-one-of-more.html) blog post shows one of his bowl-backs, lists him as a "pupil of the Vinaccia brothers." So, evidently a recognized Italian shop.

As to your particular instrument, you need to post pictures of it; preferably including a picture of the label. Do a Google search on "Giuseppe Ventana" and you'll get some general info, including pictures of some of his instruments. Specific evaluation of your mandolin would require some pictorial information.

[Wendywoo]

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[brunello97]

Holy Moly. That's a Gelas-system double top mandolin. Not what I was expecting at all with the Venzana label. Most likely (definitely) built in France. Looks to be in muy bueno shape. Or trés bien, as your father would have said. Here's an extended thread on them here at the MC. (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?32121-Gelas-mandolins) Do you have some more / better pictures of the label(s) themselves that you can share?

Mick

[Wendywoo]

Here you go142402142403142404142405

[allenhopkins]

So, two labels? Venzana of Napoli, and Beuscher of Paris? The Beuscher label says "Luthier," so perhaps Beuscher built it for Venzana? -- which would support Mick's contention that it's "definitely" French-built.

Fascinating.

Later: Aha! Beuscher evidently sold Venzana mandolins through their catalog! (http://www.mandolinluthier.com/french_mandolin_makers_4.htm) So, could Venzana have made a double-top to Beuscher's specs, or could Beuscher have made it and labeled it "Venzana?"

[vic-victor]

Actually Venzana worked in Napoli and had a licence to build Gelas-type instruments for Paul Beuscher, who was a Paris-based distributor. The Paul Beuscher company is still in business.

Giuseppe Venzana also made traditional mandolins.

[Wendywoo]

Actually Venzana worked in Napoli and had a licence to build Gelas-type instruments for Paul Beuscher, who was a Paris-based distributor. The Paul Beuscher company is still in business.

Giuseppe Venzana also made traditional mandolins.

Thanks to all of you for your knowledge, it is quite exciting to know the history of the instrument. We are very grateful to you all!

We will take to to a dealer in London to have it checked over to make sure it is in good rider and then list it here in classified for offers as we are keen it goes to a lover of its tradition!

[Jeff Hildreth]

Note the Brazilian tulipwood binding on the top and how Venzana "fanned" it from horizontal to vertical as the binding progressed around the perimeter, classy.

Interesting bridge.. is it "fixed" or "floating" ?

[Jim Garber]

Interesting bridge.. is it "fixed" or "floating" ?

It can't be floating or the strings would pull it off the top. The mandolin has a negative neck angle.

[Graham McDonald]

Interesting that Gelas model mandolins were made in Italy and imported back to France. All the others I have come across came out of Mirecourt, though the 1920 Beuscher catalog on Dave Hynd's site has a pic of a bowl back Gelas by Venzana. Maybe Beuscher could get around the Gelas patent by having them made in Italy or had a "falling out" with the Mirecourt factories and got his Neapolitan supplier to make them. (How long does a French patent run for?) Venzana must have been one of the few survivors of the Naples based mandolin industry after 1918, perhaps like DeMeglio because he had an export business. I wonder for how long after 1949 the factory was in business?

[brunello97]

The date wasn't the only thing surprising me, Graham. I have a number of Venzana mandolins in my files and each one is distinctly different in style than the others. I always assumed he was a 'labeler' until Victor's post, Dave's catalog notwithstanding.

Here's a video of somebody playing a Vinaccia-style Venzana supposedly date 1905. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3taeKIlR87Y)

Can't seem to turn up a "Salita San Vittorio" on contemporary maps of Napoli. Who knows how street names might have been changed, though.

Where GV got his "Gelas" mandolins still seems a little vague to me, but I'm always pushing the reset button for myself here. Which is great…..

Mick

[Jeff Hildreth]

"It can't be floating or the strings would pull it off the top. The mandolin has a negative neck angle"

Duh : )
I figured that out right after I posted.. neck angle was the clue.

[Jim Garber]

Here is a Venzana-signed Gélas guitar (http://www.guitarejazz.com/achat-vente/guitare-acoustique-signee-venzana-10805.html).

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[brunello97]

The listing says it has the what sounds like the same pair of labels that Wendywoo's mandolin has: one from Paul Besucher in Paris and one from Venzana in Naples. It also includes Venzana in list of Gelas system makers.

Something still has me scratching my head about this: The same Giuseppe Venzana who was labeling Vinaccia-style (as well as very Sicilian looking) mandolins in 1902 at the same address (which no longer seems to exist) in 1949 making Gelas style mandolins and guitars. And they are being relabeled by a guy in Paris whose brother also is making Gelas style instruments. Weird.

Mick

[Graham McDonald]

An odd thing about the guitar that Jim posted the pic of is that it has a very strange fan fret arrangement, where the frets are angled so as to be closer to the bridge on the treble side. A different approach to compensation! Set back the bridge so the bass strings play in tune and then shorten the treble string lengths by angling the frets. Makes my head hurt.

The whole thing about Vernaza and his/their atelier over 50 or so years is another example of how little is known, at least in the English speaking world, about the mandolin and wider musical instrument industry in Naples a century ago.

[Jim Garber]

An odd thing about the guitar that Jim posted the pic of is that it has a very strange fan fret arrangement, where the frets are angled so as to be closer to the bridge on the treble side. A different approach to compensation!

I thought it might be distortion from camera angle but perhaps this was intended to played Hawaiian style and that explain that fan fretting.


Elle pouvait être jouée à plat sur les genoux (lap top slide guitar) avec un block ou en tenue standard (je la jouais ainsi quand j'étais enfant au conservatoire mais montée en cordes nylon).

[brunello97]

The ad does say this:

"Elle fait partie d'un type d'instruments dits "GELAS" du nom de l'inventeur des instruments à double table (mandolines, mandoles, guitares et guitares hawaïennes)."

Pablo H posted an image of a Franco-Hawaiian Gelas on this thread. (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?32121-Gelas-mandolins) Though the frets appear to be perpendicular to the neck on this one.

There is also one at this site, (http://www.earlymusicalinstruments.info/Original%20Instruments%20for%20sale.htm) with a nice side view of the string set up.

And here. (http://notomguitars.com/products/1930s-gelas-hawaiian) This one looks really set up.

Mick