Polka Picking?

[sbhikes]

I was at an Irish session last night and when a polka came up, I could not figure out the right way to pick it. I assume down stroke on the down beat, but it was all down beats. Seemed weird and I realized that I'd never played a polka on mandolin before. I had always played this polka on the flute. Was that the right way to pick it?

[MikeyG]

I was at an Irish session last night and when a polka came up, I could not figure out the right way to pick it. I assume down stroke on the down beat, but it was all down beats. Seemed weird and I realized that I'd never played a polka on mandolin before. I had always played this polka on the flute. Was that the right way to pick it?

That's the way I would do it - mostly down strokes. Here are a couple of examples:

140415140416

https://soundcloud.com/mikeyg-777132705/tettegouche-polkas

Of course, there are other ways - just as valid.

MikeyG

[Cobalt]

I just had a look at one of the examples, "Tettegouche Polka #2" to see what felt natural for me. Without particularly thinking about it, I used alternating down/up strokes throughout, except for the crotchets (quarter-notes) or the quaver (eighth-note) immediately following a crotchet, these I played as down strokes.

edit: actually that's somewhat of an over-simplification, but in any case it's just one way to play. For me the picking direction can also vary depending on whether the next note is on the same or a different string.

[MikeyG]

Of course, Cobalt! You found another way which seems more natural to you. It would be great to hear how it sounds that way - could you post a recording? (And THANKS for the crotchet/quaver translations!!)

And how do you handle the sixteenth notes (semiquavers)?

MikeyG

[Randi Gormley]

I play alternate picking, too -- with downpicks on the emphasis notes. fwiw.

[Cobalt]

I did the semiquavers as alternating down-up too. When I get time I may share a recording, I've got a real-world jam session to go to later, so will be logging off for now.

[foldedpath]

I play alternate picking, too -- with downpicks on the emphasis notes. fwiw.

Same here. There might be several down-picks in a row, depending on the tune. I hear the rhythms in Polkas as being more broken up and variable, compared to something like a reel, where the pulse is usually consistent throughout the tune. So the picking has to follow, with down-picks wherever you need 'em.

[PseudoCelt]

It depends on the tune, but I would usually play the straight 8th notes (and anything longer) in polkas as downstrokes, the dotted 8th/16ths as DU and the 16ths DU. As the tempo goes up, I'd probably have to default to alternate picking. Where there are a lot of 8th notes in a row, I'll often play some as two 16ths (DU) to break up the downstrokes a bit.

[DavidKOS]

Alternate picking...with adaptations for the triplet ornaments.

[zoukboy]

Speaking about Irish polkas here, and that is what the OP referenced, I usually play all notes in an 8th note pattern with downstrokes and then add upstrokes only in passages of 16th notes. And there really aren't any "triplet ornaments" in polkas, by the way.

For instance, in Mick Hanly's "Jessica's Polka," I would pick: D DU D D | D D D D | D DU D D | D D D _ | etc.

140443

[MikeyG]

Speaking about Irish polkas here, and that is what the OP referenced, I usually play all notes in an 8th note pattern with downstrokes and then add upstrokes only in passages of 16th notes. And there really aren't any "triplet ornaments" in polkas, by the way.

For instance, in Mick Hanly's "Jessica's Polka," I would pick: D DU D D | D D D D | D DU D D | D D D _ | etc.

140443

Thanks, Roger. This is exactly the picking pattern that I have used in the examples I attached to post #2, as you can see by looking at the pdf's.

MikeyG

[sbhikes]

Gosh, I'm embarrassed that I forget what 8th notes and 16th notes are. It was Egan's Polka.

https://thesession.org/tunes/39

We played another after but I don't know what it was. Seemed like all down-strokes to me. A DUDU on this would have been too slow. I guess all downstrokes are legit so that's good.

[DavidKOS]

And there really aren't any "triplet ornaments" in polkas, by the way.



Tell that to the musicians I've heard :grin:
I know I've heard some of those fast "didily" tripets in some Irish polkas. I tend to trust your opinion as the writer of the book on Irish bouzouki, but I swear I've heard guys at sessions add all the normal ornaments to Irish polkas.

Irish polkas are a pretty specialized subset of polka and Irish music, huh?

https://thesession.org/tunes/357/357?print=true

140473

This setting of "Dennis Murphy's" does write in the ornament.

[zoukboy]

Tell that to the musicians I've heard :grin:
I know I've heard some of those fast "didily" tripets in some Irish polkas. I tend to trust your opinion as the writer of the book on Irish bouzouki, but I swear I've heard guys at sessions add all the normal ornaments to Irish polkas.

Irish polkas are a pretty specialized subset of polka and Irish music, huh?

https://thesession.org/tunes/357/357?print=true

140473

This setting of "Dennis Murphy's" does write in the ornament.

This is where terminology gets sticky. The ornament that is called a "triplet" is never played as three equal notes in the time of two as the notation implies, it is always two 16th notes followed by one 8th note, i.e., the first of a pair of 8th notes is replaced by two 16ths. The issue is confused by those who persist in using notated triplets for the ornament. Those who know the style know how to interpret that when they see it written (and written sources are generally mistrusted, anyway).

There is one exception to this, where an actual triplet is played as notated, and that is in a special effect in hornpipes, when pairs of 8th notes are replaced with three evenly spaced notes that strain against the prevailing heavily swung 8th notes of the basic hornpipe rhythm.

In the case you cited above, David, the notated triplet would almost certainly be articulated as two 16ths followed by an 8th, and in that position of that tune it would most likely be legato on fiddle and box. A plucker can pick those three notes DUD like the ornament but it won't function the same as that ornament will in a jig or a reel.

[foldedpath]

I agree with Roger above. When you see a triplet notated like that, it's part of the tune and played within the rhythm of the tune. The ornament form, often called a "treble" to keep it distinct, isn't usually included in sheet music unless it's from an instrument-specific tutorial where it's usually notated above the ledger lines, like bowing directions for a fiddler. When you see a triplet within the ledger lines, it should be played in-context as a triplet.

An important characteristic of ornaments in Irish music -- whether it's the "treble" for banjos and mandolins, or the cuts and rolls from a fiddler or fluter -- is that the speed an ornament is played, is independent of the tune tempo. It will the be same fast flick of notes, whether the tune itself is played faster or slower.

That's why using software to slow down a tune for learning distorts Irish trad more than it does in other genres. You can play the music at a fairly wide range of speeds, but the ornaments really have only a single speed (which varies between players). They just get distorted and sound unnatural when they're slowed down along with the rest of the tune.

P.S. I'd also agree that it's rare to hear many ornaments added to "Irish" polkas. There is no iron rule against it, it's just not as common as with jigs and reels. When you listen to someone like fiddler Kevin Burke playing one of his Polka sets, he'll throw a roll in here and there, but he usually plays polkas straighter than jigs and reels. Great drive in the rhythm pulse though, which is the thing you need for a polka!

[mikeyes]

I don't think it is ornaments as much as learning the polka style, especially from the accordion.

There are a lot of little grace notes, slides, etc that are making the music a polka. Matt Cranitch says that the only instruments that can play polkas right are the fiddle and accordion/concertina - of course he and Jackie Daly play a lot together. Playing polkas on mandolin or banjo require rethinking how we play the instrument. I just published a column on my blog (http://itmbanjo.blogspot.com) that has videos with alternate picking (on mandolin) and some ideas about how to play polkas on banjo. Mostly I say that you need to use a lot of down strokes to get that dancing feeling polkas need and that it is a challenge for our instruments to get it right.

And, of course there is that back beat that drives it.

Listen to the little additions that the accordion brings to the music in this youtube video:


https://youtu.be/w4GE88WQffw

All those little bits drive the tune and the down strokes make the listener want to dance.

Mike Keyes

[JeffD]

I love Irish polkas. And especially Egan's. I agree with Roger in post #10 above, though I am not religious about any kind of picking pattern, and am willing to make accommodations as required, as long as I can get the tune out with the right emphasis.

I especially like playing a set of polkas, three or four even. It just gets me going.

[Paul Busman]

Mike-- ya beat me to it. I was going to post a link to your excellent banjo blog.

[David Surette]

I am with zoukboy. I wish polkas got played more often, they are fun to really rip through.

[Randi Gormley]

One of the sessions I attend plays polkas all the time. If any of you guys is ever around on a weekend near White Plains, NY, shoot me an IM and I'll hook you up!