Old L&H?

[mdavis00]

Hi folks! I'm new to the forum and somewhat new to mandolins in general--having done little more than grow up around them and play with them now and again. I've always wanted to learn to play a stringed instrument--guitar, mandolin, or fiddle. With my first child on the way (nothing like growing up in a house full of music) and having recently become the custodian of two elderly mandolins, I figured now was the time!

I have to tell you that one of these old mandolins that I have has been a complete mystery to me and remains so. I'm posting here to see if you all can offer any insight and in the hopes that you'll enjoy the mystery. First some back-story (skip a few paragraphs if you want to get right to the mandolin)…

I received two heirloom mandolins heralding from great great uncles on different sides of my mother's family. Both have been in Western North Carolina since around the turn of the century. Both are completely free of any identifying marks--I have been exploring with a pen-light and dentist mirror inside each and found no serial numbers, stamps, or labels. Neither has been in a playable condition for probably thirty or more years. One is a bowlback that my oldtime playing friends call a "pillbug" with the neck ripping away from the body. A local luthier (from Acoustic Corner in Black Mountain NC--you might know him) identified them both as pre-1900 Lyon and Healy's. The bowlback is not terribly ornate, has twenty ribs, cellulose tuning pegs, a little curly inlay in the pickgaurd but nowhere else, and is not all that mysterious. It looks very similar to the other L&H instruments in the forum. The other is the odd one--at least odd from my novice perspective.

My great great uncle's name was Harold Hardin--a carpenter in Transylvania county NC who would have been about 22 in 1916 which is around the time he first acquired this instrument--possibly from his father. He enlisted and was shipped overseas in World War I. As he moved from port in England into France and then down the front line in Northeastern France, he wrote the names of the towns and territories where he encamped on the face of the mandolin. It was probably in the war that the instrument received some of the damage it shows now--a badly repaired broken neck and widdled replacement bridge as well as many nicks and dings. By 1930 Harold was a married man with daughter, still in the Brevard area. I assume he played fairly regularly until he died. The instrument went to his brother, then to his brother's son, then to his wife, then to her daughter (my mother), and finally it has come to me. Coincidently, I'm living about thirty miles or so from Translyvania County.

http://www.fallingstar.net/host/mandolin/mandolin.jpg

I'm going to include links to more pictures throughout.

It is a flatback, or perhaps better described as a fiddle-back, and has the same fat oblong shape oval of a bowlback. It's larger in body than the bowlback--a 14" neck and overall length of 25" from head to tailpiece. The face cants back just before the bridge. It does not resemble "A type" mandolins I've seen--it's thicker (2.5") and the body seems bigger in general. It has 18 frets, bone tuning pegs, no tailpiece cover, nor any markings on the headstock. The inside is bare wood and the Luthier in town told me the bracing has been sloppily worked on in the past. In general, it strikes me as a kind of "unpolished" predecessor to the A-type mandolins--almost like somebody chopped the back off a bowlback and put a gently arching flat back there instead. The wood on the front is light and has a medium, straight grain. The back is varnished reddish but shows a medium toned ruddy brown wood beneath with a more swirly grain.


(Back) (http://www.fallingstar.net/host/mandolin/back.jpg)

(Side with loose glue seam) (http://www.fallingstar.net/host/mandolin/side.jpg)

(tuning pegs) (http://www.fallingstar.net/host/mandolin/tuning_pegs.jpg)

The damage that I know about is: the neck has been snapped off completely close to the headstock, including breaking the fret board, then appears to have been glued(?) back together. The neck has drifted toward the bottom of the instrument and caused the face around the tone hole to break apart and crack in two places. The face is also split from the pickgaurd to the tailpiece and the split has spread perhaps a millimeter. It is missing one bone tuning peg. The glue seams throughout are coming apart--worse in some places than others.

http://www.fallingstar.net/host/mandolin/thumbs/neck_break.jpg
(larger) (http://www.fallingstar.net/host/mandolin/neck_break.jpg)
http://www.fallingstar.net/host/mandolin/thumbs/damage.jpg
(larger) (http://www.fallingstar.net/host/mandolin/damage.jpg)

(Cracked face and widdled bridge) (http://www.fallingstar.net/host/mandolin/cracked_face.jpg)

When I got this mandolin, I figured it was irreparably broken and probably some sort of cheapo Sears & Roebuck from the teens. My oldtime friend convinced me to have it looked at. The Luthier said that it wasn't too bad but would be time consuming to fix up. We talked in general terms, and what I can remember him saying was: it would need bracing work, a neck reset, new fret board and frets, sealing the cracks, and re-gluing. It's also going to need new tuning equipment or else a replacement peg and a new bridge. A period bridge and tailpiece would be nice but aren't necessary. The gentlemen quoted me $500 for the repair. I'd be very interested in your opinions as well. Is it really an early Lyon & Healy? Is it worth sinking half a grand into to repair (heirloom value aside)?

Thanks for taking the time to read all this! I hope you enjoyed the pictures.

[Eugene]

Lyon & Healy (L&H) was a massively prolific firm; many American luthiers who are really only familiar with Gibson archtop mandolins and their imitators (i.e., almost all of them) default to calling all pre F-5 non-Gibsons "L&H" or "early A style." This looks typical of ca. 1910s-'20s American flat-backed, canted-top mandolins, but no, this is like no product of L&H with which I am familiar. It's not really like the product of any of the other big makers--like Martin, Vega, the Larson bros., etc.--either. Superficially, it resembles some Weymanns in depth and profile, but I wouldn't bet on Weymann.

I can believe it would cost ca. $500 to make this functional, but it certainly isn't worth the effort on purely economic considerations. You could score a similar, properly labeled, better decorated L&H backed in quality Brazilian rosewood for that money with plenty of change to spare. You might even be able to score a pre-depression Martin style A (their "A" was flat, canted and backed in mahogany) for that amount. If it means something to you personally to make this playable, enjoy doing so, by all means.

Now, I would really like to see images of your "L&H" Neapolitan-type mandolin...

[Jim Garber]

The Luthier said that it wasn't too bad but would be time consuming to fix up.
Pretty contradictory statement... Not too bad, and yet he would prob have to reconstruct the top and the fretboard altogether, etc...

I agree with Eugene's assessment that it is not an L&H and it is not worth spending $500 to fix it up to play. My advice would be to hang it on the wall to admire and think of your great uncle and all the stories that this mandolin could tell.

BTW my initial impression was that it is a lower-end French-made mandolin. After reading your story, I would say it is possible that your uncle did buy this one in France during WWI. In any case, that is my gut feeling.

Jim

[Bob A]

What the other guys said.

It's worth hanging onto them for sentiment's sake, if you're the sentimental type. If not, their biggest value might be in parting them out. If they work, good period tuners can make someone else's sick mandolin well again. A good bowlback bridge might be just the ticket to make a bridgeless mandolin sing (if it fits) and save someone from having to carve a new bridge.

The instrument in the photo looks pretty tired, and it's not the sort of thing anyone would drop 500 bucks into, on the basis of its being worth $500 when the job was done. Maybe $250, if it cleaned up real pretty and sounded good, on a good day.

Me, I'd hang it on a wall and hoist a glass to my uncle's memory from time to time, and use the 500 to buy a playable instrument.

Post a picture of the bowlback. Maybe better news there?

[mdavis00]

Bah! I should’ve gone with my gut on this one--the identification sounded too good to be true. Having plucked a bit at several old Gibsons and a Martin, my instrument just didn’t seem to have the weight or solid feel of those. It felt “cheap” to me. Also, I’m not sure that my uncle in his youth could have afforded a Lyon & Healy.

jgarber wrote:


BTW my initial impression was that it is a lower-end French-made mandolin. After reading your story, I would say it is possible that your uncle did buy this one in France during WWI. In any case, that is my gut feeling.


That’s distinctly possible and would be kind of neat by itself. The only thing that would make me skeptical is that “S. Hampton” is written early in the list of place names. That would have been where the soldiers debarked from England to crossover into France. It could’ve been written in later, though, or it might just be that he picked up a French mando in England.

Bob A. wrote:


Me, I'd hang it on a wall and hoist a glass to my uncle's memory from time to time, and use the 500 to buy a playable instrument.


Eugene wrote:


You could score a similar, properly labeled, better decorated L&H backed in quality Brazilian rosewood for that money with plenty of change to spare. You might even be able to score a pre-depression Martin style A (their "A" was flat, canted and backed in mahogany) for that amount.


I’m going to give the Luthier in town an opportunity to explain why he thought this was a Lyon & Healy worth repairing. We’ll see what he says, but I imagine that the instrument’s going to go back onto the wall where it was. Maybe someday after building a few mando kits I can repair it well enough to play myself.

In the meantime, I’ve just raised $500 doing extra work here and there to sink into an instrument. I’m keeping an eye on eBay and have posted a wanted in the classifieds here. We’ll see what turns up!

Thanks for your comments and I'll get a picture of the bowlback up to see if it's also a bogus ID.

[Jim Garber]

In the meantime, I’ve just raised $500 doing extra work here and there to sink into an instrument. #I’m keeping an eye on eBay and have posted a wanted in the classifieds here. #We’ll see what turns up!
Let us know what you are considering. Mosty who have answred here are from the classical bunch and lean toward the bowlback style, tho I think we all have atleast one Gibson plus a few other of the non-bowls. Give us an idea what you are looking for and we can help.

Jim