Love for Guitars/Guitarists

[CelticDude]

I was checking some other fora for Irish accompaniment instruments, and came a across a few threads that were amazingly vitriolic against guitars at sessions. Is this a common attitude? Why? There were a few reasons mentioned, but really, they fell into the "we hate bad players at our session" sort of complaint. Okay, but that would apply to fiddle, flute or whistle, or anything (I was scared to search for bodhran.)

[jwynia]

There are a few reasons that contribute to the attitude you're noting.

First is that, while bad players of all sorts bug people, it's really rare for someone with only 3 months of playing experience on the fiddle, whistle, flute, etc. to attempt to jump in and play loudly. But, it happens with guitarists who have half a dozen chords who figure that, since most of the tunes use the Western D/G keys and they know those chords, they can jump in and back tunes.

Combine that with the popularity of guitars in general (when compared with fiddles, whistles and wooden flutes or even mandolins), and the sheer number of guitars that often show up at a session is high, with a larger portion of those people being less experienced than the fiddle section, etc.

Then, consider that, unlike most rock, folk, blues or other mainstream music, where the guitar takes center stage, it's very much considered a supporting player in Irish music. The melody instruments are center stage in Irish sessions. That means that the best Irish backers often play with a subtlety that can take quite a bit of work to achieve.

Oh, and that D/G key thing I mentioned? Since lots of tunes are actually in different modes that happen to use the notes from those Western keys, but in different ways means that the chords that sound best backing tunes aren't just banging out a 1st position G, A, D chords. The best backers use inversions of chords and movement up and down the fretboard to follow the movement of the tunes themselves.

I say all of this in part because my journey into Irish music started with a guitar and showing up at the Center for Irish Music. Eventually, more than one of the great instructors there (including people in Altan and Boiled in Lead) gently told me that the best path to learning to back Irish tunes is actually learning to play the tunes themselves.

That led to mandolin and eventually tenor guitar for me and I can say that, now when I back tunes, it's with a much deeper understanding of what's going on in the tunes. And, as a tune player, I find myself cringing when a guitar player, inexperienced with Irish music jumps in.

[foldedpath]

Jwynia covered the main reasons very well above, and I agree with all of that. No prejudice here; I back Irish trad on guitar and also play the melody side on mandolin and flute (not very well on the latter, yet).


There were a few reasons mentioned, but really, they fell into the "we hate bad players at our session" sort of complaint. Okay, but that would apply to fiddle, flute or whistle, or anything (I was scared to search for bodhran.)

Because the heart of the music is a group of people playing melody in unison, it's hard for one bad melody player to wreck it. They just get absorbed and ignored in the unison melody line everyone is playing.

But one guitar player... just one, in a small enough group of say a dozen people or less... can wreck a session by choosing chords that don't fit. Or even if they do fit, they might fit a different interpretation of the major/minor feel of the tune, instead of leaving that up to the melody line as it hints at shifting tonalities within the tune.

That almost never happens in genres like OldTime, Bluegrass, Rock, Blues, and other American formats where you always know if a tune is major or minor, so you know what chords to play. The Americana genres and Pop music in general don't play these coy, mysterious games with the tonal center that Irish trad does (which is one reason I love this music). Sensitivity to this is important for any guitar player backing Irish trad.

And then you have the situation where two or more guitar players show up, and want to play at the same time. Not unusual in a guitar-centric culture like ours. That works in Americana folk genres because the chords are fixed, but it doesn't work in this format where the melody is fixed and accompaniment is improvised. Just two guitar players choosing their own chords and where to change them in an Irish session, is as bad as two mandolin players deciding to take a solo at the same time in a Bluegrass session.

This isn't just generic hate for guitars. There are some melody players who have had so many bad experiences that they'd rather just not see a guitar player walk in the door. And I have to admit, some of the greatest music I've ever heard in a session is at the end, when the backer has gone and it's just pure melody. But generally speaking, good guitar backers who know what they're doing are appreciated. I know maybe three or four guitarists in my area who would always be welcome at local sessions. And thousands of others who wouldn't know what to do with the music. You gotta scope out the good ones, and keep them close.
;)

[Beanzy]

It's too easy for a guitarist to try to tie down the chords to major or minor (also the dreaded resolving every line to the root chord rather than leaving things hanging) which is exactly what you don't want to hear under an Irish traditional tune. If things aren't left ambiguous then they're probably interfering with a melody player line which may be moving between colours. Normally it's best to avoid including thirds in the chords you choose so you leave room for things not to settle. If you tie it down then it's going to reduce things to little more than a stompy ditty, which despite the worst efforts of many knitted ganzi wearers is not what it should be. As the others have said it's not normal tune knocking out that's going on here and it takes time for most people to cotton on to what's actually happening below the obvious superficial stuff.

Then there's rhythm. Probably best to think of rhythm as a series of pulses applied to an accompanying line which complements the melody. So your chords will work best if they're broken up and rolling in under the foam and spray of the tune. Thinking harp rather than guitar can help here. Seeing yourself as putting an ebb and flow or making different scenes for the tunes to play within would be a good mental approach. Strumming can be good for kicking off a tune if you're calling the set, or for pushing the rhythm if you know where that will fit. Strumming just because that's all you know how to do or your default wouldn't earn you any friends. So you need to be pretty judicious in where and how you use strong strumming, a solid arpeggiated chord pulse normally works better.

Ducking out early as you approach changes between tunes in a set is a good idea too. There can be some complex and subtle knitting needed to make for a good transition and unless you're really experienced it's a lot easier to get it wrong than get it right. This also has the advantage of making you look like a thoughtful and knowledgeable player who is making space for the others to do their stuff, that can earn you many brownie points.

So if there's a sense of ill will towards the guitarist who pitches up, it's probably born of weary experience of too many sessions trampled under the mashing plectrums of well intentioned but ignorant have a go heroes.

[Dagger Gordon]

Some of it is simply not understanding the complexities or indeed the form of it.
I should think most guitarists who have a limited number of chords would surely feel out of their depth in a classical or modern jazz ensemble, but if you see a Irish style guitarist playing ordinary D or G chords then you might think that's something you might indeed be able to do. Harder than it looks, though!

[David Lewis]

Brilliant answers. I'd also gently suggest that the guitar is a 'new' instrument and there is a small cohort who reject all non 'traditional' instruments, including the bodhran and the bouzouki.

[CelticDude]

Okay, thanks everyone. You all explained it well, without the vitriol. I ask partly because I'm currently taking Irish guitar lessons at the local Irish Academy of Music. The woman teaching the class, Claudine Langielle, has some really good ideas that are pretty much in line with what's been said here. But don't worry, it'll be a while before I'm brave enough to bring the guitar to a session, if ever.

Re resolving - I've been using The Snowy Path as a "last waltz", and although it's in D, it ends on A7. I like this unresolved ending, but not one guitar player I know can leave it there.

[JeffD]

told me that the best path to learning to back Irish tunes is actually learning to play the tunes themselves.
.


Yesir.

The question sometimes asked: "What should I play when I don't know the tune?" Which drives me nuts. I mean in what other activity could this reasonably be asked?

Driving to work? "Where should I go when I don't know the way?"

How about acting? "What should I say when I haven't learned my lines?"

Shopping? "What should I buy when I don't know what we need?"


There is nothing at all wrong with sitting out a tune.

[JeffD]

There are a few reasons that contribute to the attitude you're noting.

First is that, while bad players of all sorts bug people, it's really rare for someone with only 3 months of playing experience on the fiddle, whistle, flute, etc. to attempt to jump in and play loudly. But, it happens with guitarists who have half a dozen chords who figure that, since most of the tunes use the Western D/G keys and they know those chords, they can jump in and back tunes. .

And taking this a little further, a fiddler, whistler, flooter who is interested in joining a session has often listened to many many hours of Irish music. The same is not always true with the 6 chord guitarist.

[foldedpath]

Re resolving - I've been using The Snowy Path as a "last waltz", and although it's in D, it ends on A7. I like this unresolved ending, but not one guitar player I know can leave it there.

Ugh. Well, one way around that is to end the tune like Altan does on the Harvest Storm album, replacing the turn at the end with a dotted climb up from G to A. It sounds more like an actual ending, and might encourage the guitarists to hang on the A chord. Of course all the melody players have to be on board for that to work.

[Bertram Henze]

what the others have said. It takes time to absorb the music and be an accompanist. The prejudice is pure statistics: who is that? if he is a good ITM accompanist why haven't we heard of him?

[catmandu2]

Then there's rhythm. Probably best to think of rhythm as a series of pulses applied to an accompanying line which complements the melody. So your chords will work best if they're broken up and rolling in under the foam and spray of the tune. .

Excellent.

Folks are so often bound in 'Western' (what we hear on the radio) forms, and the guitar is a de rigueur expression of these forms. Must step back, outside, and get into the music. Accompaniment - especially in forms like ITM - is a fluid, sometimes ambiguous, often suggestive, fugitive, dynamic course - as so aptly described above.

Depending on the type/style guitar one is accustomed to playing - there may be lots of 'unlearning' to do. The guitar IS capable of so much - (and often too much, eh); a light, lilting, nuanced approach may not be so common for many players -

[Mike Anderson]

Ugh. Well, one way around that is to end the tune like Altan does on the Harvest Storm album, replacing the turn at the end with a dotted climb up from G to A. It sounds more like an actual ending, and might encourage the guitarists to hang on the A chord. Of course all the melody players have to be on board for that to work.

Seems sensible, given Altan (guitarist Mark Kelly) wrote it. :)

[DavidKOS]

There's a similar issues with piano accompaniment in Irish music. It can be well, done, like a good guitarist in Irish music, but it is often NOT well done for all the reasons mentioned by previous posters.

That's one reason the DADGAD tuned guitar is popular in Irish music, it is more easily used for modal harmonies, same for the use of the Irish bouzouki.

The original Irish session music was monophonic, all instruments playing about the same, ornaments based on the pipes and the fiddle, etc. Guitar, particularly played in a pedestrian style common to folk music, just doesn't cut it.

[DavidKOS]

The question sometimes asked: "What should I play when I don't know the tune?"
There is nothing at all wrong with sitting out a tune.



"What should I play when I don't know the tune?"


NOTHING!

Listen and learn the tune.

[catmandu2]

Love everyone's comments. Only thing I would add - agreeing in F-path's observations .. I think much in American OT, blues, etc music is often ambiguous - outside of maj/min simple diatonics, so much of that good old 'weirdness' (for less of a better term) in so much of that good old music. That's some of what I'm so compelled by and seeking in the study/play that I pursue. As a student of (the) old forms, this is something I find alluring. What do you knowledgeable folks call it? - there are words n every language - the temperament, just intonation? There is more than just the scalar/pitch/discrete aspects of it all, no doubt. I guess this occurs in every other form too, come to think.. - rock, jazz, all.. - contemporary forms too..

*Maybe I should just call it nuance and shut up. A play of consonance/dissonances, tensions, pulls, weights, weaves, veins, like strides of sediments in land running with the oil of old blood, or like everything else..

Okay I'll shut up

[jwynia]

But don't worry, it'll be a while before I'm brave enough to bring the guitar to a session, if ever.

I completely understand. I also play wooden spoons and other folk percussion. I'd NEVER bring those to an Irish session, though the Irish band I'm in does utilize my playing of those in a few spots. Those get an even stronger reaction than guitars or bodhrans do at many sessions, despite the fact that, when our band plays, I often get complemented on how well the spoons complement our reels and sound like dancers on wood floors.

Someone else mentioned the question that often gets asked of "what to do if you can't play the tunes". The instruments that provide an opportunity to answer "play it" are the ones that aren't terribly welcome BECAUSE so many people turn to them when they don't know the tunes. As a result, by the time someone who plays the spoons, guitar or bodhran well shows up at a session, there have been dozens who made a mess.

As a result, the reaction is similar to most people's reaction to seeing an infant on a flight. It doesn't matter that THIS baby might fly for 3 hours in complete silence, our experience leads us to anticipate the problems.

[CelticDude]

Ugh. Well, one way around that is to end the tune like Altan does on the Harvest Storm album, replacing the turn at the end with a dotted climb up from G to A. It sounds more like an actual ending, and might encourage the guitarists to hang on the A chord. Of course all the melody players have to be on board for that to work.

I think I do that the last time through, although I didn't write it out, for myself or especially others..

[M.Marmot]

As a result, the reaction is similar to most people's reaction to seeing an infant on a flight. It doesn't matter that THIS baby might fly for 3 hours in complete silence, our experience leads us to anticipate the problems.

This ... this is a brilliant comparison. :))

[Bertram Henze]

This ... this is a brilliant comparison. :))

It's not so uncommon...

http://assets.amuniversal.com/6ac8a300a04b012f2fe600163e41dd5b

[M.Marmot]

It's not so uncommon...

http://assets.amuniversal.com/6ac8a300a04b012f2fe600163e41dd5b

Brilliance is not exclusive of precedence ... though, replace those collicky babies with banjo players and you do have a readymade MandoCaf meme.

And, so as not to be derailing the thread .... i thought jwynias' reply pretty much summed up the reasons why certain instruments are dreaded at sessions.

[Bertram Henze]

Brilliance is not exclusive of precedence

I'd even say that brilliance requires precedence in order to be recognized. These mental pictures are striking because we have seen them in our own reality (including banjo players if you like), and they are also comforting because they show that we are not alone.

Other than the guitar player who enters a session without getting what is going on - pity on him, because he is truly lonesome. Most session musicians will not be so impolite as telling him what's wrong, but just ignore him to death. With luck, he might be able to blindly grope his way along chords gleaned from the hand of an experienced guitar player in the same session.

[Dagger Gordon]

As a matter of interest, do you suppose if someone turned up with a bouzouki they would get be treated any differently, or is there an assumption that if you've bothered to get a bouzouki then you probably do know a bit about it?

[Bertram Henze]

I never met a zouk player who didn't know his stuff. That creates a certain confidence.

[DavidKOS]

It's also a bit easier to get into a modal/rhythmic accompaniment on Irish Bouzouki, especially if tuned GDAD, than most non DADGAD guitar players can do.

Guitar was never really a big part of the Irish session group of "traditional" instruments, pipes, fiddle, whistle, flute, concertina, accordion, and the plucked strings were mandolin and banjo; Irish Bouzouki, was sort of developed by respected players in the Irish tradition (think Donal Lunny, etc.) and thus has a more acceptable pedigree for Irish music.

[Bertram Henze]

Irish Bouzouki, was sort of developed by respected players in the Irish tradition (think Donal Lunny, etc.) and thus has a more acceptable pedigree for Irish music.

It was Johnny Moynihan who first introduced the zouk into ITM, and he still suffers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQWLA2GHfO8) for this... ;)

[Dagger Gordon]

I never met a zouk player who didn't know his stuff. That creates a certain confidence.

If it was a guitarist who stated that he/she played in DADGAD or dropped D as soon as they arrived, would that also help create any confidence, or is it the guitar itself that is the problem?

[Bertram Henze]

If it was a guitarist who stated that he/she played in DADGAD or dropped D as soon as they arrived...

Advance statements create expectation - after that, the player must play even better to live up to that. One tune well accompanied dissolves suspicion faster than a thousand words.

[Dagger Gordon]

One tune well accompanied dissolves suspicion faster than a thousand words.

Well you're certainly right there.

[Beanzy]

Sure it's not about the instruments it's about the playing;
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[Bertram Henze]

Of course, not all sessions are alike. In some sessions you'll never feel at home, and your fault is not neccessarily your instrument but simply the fact that you've been born. All session players are humans (ok, almost all session players) and as such have pet peeves, for instance
- you play loud
- you play fast
- you play hornpipes
- you didn't realize that the guy who's always idly noodling between tunes was about to start a set and played over his intro

The pet peeves of one or two strong regulars can shape the personal structure of a session. Last Saturday, one of my oldest session places unexpectedly lacked 4 of those regulars who didn't turn up for unknown reasons; I wondered if we remaining few would be able to stem the tide of pub noise that was building up higher than usual, but then an astounding number of other musicians turned up, many of them former regulars I hadn't seen in years, and it was a great session. Coincidence?

[DavidKOS]

It was Johnny Moynihan who first introduced the zouk into ITM, and he still suffers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQWLA2GHfO8) for this... ;)

He and others are responsible...in a good way. Lunny is just one of my faves.


If it was a guitarist who stated that he/she played in DADGAD or dropped D as soon as they arrived, would that also help create any confidence, or is it the guitar itself that is the problem?

The DADGAD thing helps, but bouzouki has the added advantage of just NOT being a guitar.

[catmandu2]

How about: insisting that - anyone showing up with a guitar must play in dadgad ;). This would provide some assurance, that -

1. (Guitar) Player would likely know something about playing in a NON-'boom chuck' (de rigueur pop fashion) style

or

2. Players without facility of anything beyond 'boom-chuck' would be (a) forced to learn something, or (b) rendered less ostentatious

[DavidKOS]

How about: insisting that - anyone showing up with a guitar must play in dadgad ;). This would provide some assurance, that -
s

Well, that would presuppose the player knew how to play in DADGAD!

[catmandu2]

Well, that would presuppose the player knew how to play in DADGAD!

See #2, above -




2. Players without facility...would be...(b) rendered less ostentatious

(i.e. - player would then keep guitar in case...or more/less silently in lap, etc.) ;)

[foldedpath]

If it was a guitarist who stated that he/she played in DADGAD or dropped D as soon as they arrived, would that also help create any confidence, or is it the guitar itself that is the problem?

It's not the tuning or the guitar itself, it's the musician behind it. So that wouldn't have any impact, I think.

For example, one of the best Irish/Scottish guitar backers in this area plays in standard tuning. He's also great on fiddle and concertina. No coincidence there, eh?

DADGAD isn't a panacea, because you still need a good rhythm sense. And DADGAD can sometimes sound bland and unexciting -- just a wash of modal strumming -- in the hands of a player who isn't at the level of a Dáithí Sproule or Tony McManus. It's easier to "do no harm" in DADGAD, but it still comes down to whether or not the guitar player really understands the music they're backing; whether they can find the right balance between supporting the tune, and also staying out of the melody players' way.


How about: insisting that - anyone showing up with a guitar must play in dadgad ;).

That would leave me out, I play guitar in Drop-D. ;)

Also John Doyle, and a few other world-class backers. But I know you're joking.

Anyway, I like Drop-D better than DADGAD because I can leverage what I know from standard tuning. I don't have to puzzle out how to play the odd tune in Gm or F#m, and I don't have to shift a capo in the middle of a tune set if the key changes, like some DADGAD players do.

That said, I mostly play melody on mandolin and flute. I only pick up a guitar now and then for backing tunes at house sessions, or when I'm backing a tune my fiddler S.O. is playing at home. If I was only a guitar player and didn't play any melody (but why would you do that?), then I might well be into DADGAD. I dunno.

[DavidKOS]

It's not the tuning or the guitar itself, it's the musician behind it. So that wouldn't have any impact, I think.

For example, one of the best Irish/Scottish guitar backers in this area plays in standard tuning. ......

DADGAD isn't a panacea, because you still need a good rhythm sense. And DADGAD can sometimes sound bland and unexciting -- just a wash of modal strumming -- in the hands of a player who isn't at the level of a Dáithí Sproule or Tony McManus. It's easier to "do no harm" in DADGAD, but it still comes down to whether or not the guitar player really understands the music they're backing; whether they can find the right balance between supporting the tune, and also staying out of the melody players' way.

..

Durn well put there, amigo.

You could even play DADGAD like a bad oom-pah piano if you desired.

It's all up to the player's concept. the instruments do nothing on their own.

[catmandu2]

Sorry for leaving out all the rest there f-path - it was only intended as an intervention to 'weed out' the thumpers... ;)



It's not the tuning or the guitar itself, it's the musician behind it.


Even though I got into DADGAD as a kid, I likely wouldn't have then made a very competent sessionist/accompaniest - i didn't begin to really understand trad, accompaniment, etc until studying trad instruments, deeper study of forms, so forth.. However, in my case I was made ready for pursuits in trad through previous exposure to these non-'standard' guitar tunings, I think - all those years of trying to make my guitar sound like harp .. and when I got to harp, I learned a whole bunch more - about guitar accompaniment, etc, round and round, up and down..

But let's see - i'll offer another hopeful outcome/scenario for my intervention : the (non-dadgad) player is handed a guitar tuned in dadgad - suddenly lacking much practical wherewithal as to where to put the fingers, the player must now learn to deploy the instrument in a rhythmically, creative* manner.. ;)

*or 'suitably appropriate' - as the case may be..

[Bren]

For a mandolin player, the thing that puts you off guitars in a session is their volume. One good guitarist and a mandolin is a great combination. Two good guitarists is often still one too many.

I don't mind the "boom-chick" style, but I'm thinking of Shetland "Peerie Willie" walking bass & chord style, where there is a lot of air space between the booms and the chicks. You can hear yourself and others clearly. (but I know some detest that style)
If you don't know it, think of small combo Western Swing style backing to trad fiddle tunes. Willie cited Eddie Lang and Freddie Green as his main influences but he also listened to the likes of Bob Wills and Django Reinhardt

DADGAD tuning tempts the player to just thrash some moving shapes and quickly becomes tedious and repetitive. And drowns out mandolins.

Bouzouki or octave mando sound great in a private setting but tend to occupy an acoustically muddy middle ground in a busy pub session.

Which is what guitars do if they don't leave that space and don't think about overall volume.

That's my objection, insofar as I have one. Love the instrument itself.

[jwynia]

And DADGAD can sometimes sound bland and unexciting -- just a wash of modal strumming -- in the hands of a player who isn't at the level of a Dáithí Sproule or Tony McManus.

The person who pushed me hardest to "learn the tunes first" was Dáithí. I took DADGAD guitar lessons from him for a while and it became clear just how nuanced his approach is (and how in over my head I was). My favorite way of explaining how he plays is to say that if you told him to back a tune that really did require a G chord for the whole thing, he'd never play the *same* G chord for more than a measure straight. Even when the chordal center of the tune stays, his use of inversions provide movement that follows the tunes. That requires following the movement of the tune at a more detailed level than the bassline version that most of us start guitar playing with. That bassline approach is basically that bland strumming stuck on a single inversion of a single chord until the bassline indicates a chordal change.

Of course Dáithí is such a sweet person that I've seen him quietly sit back and let the ignorant 6 chord player bang away, completely ignorant of what's going on and not say a word. If asked, he always finds ways to gently suggest changes. Even when you're actually his student, he actively says he's more of a mentor than an instructor.

As in many things, those who have the most justification to judge are often the least inclined to.

[Colin Lindsay]

And taking this a little further, a fiddler, whistler, flooter who is interested in joining a session has often listened to many many hours of Irish music. The same is not always true with the 6 chord guitarist.

The same is not always true with any musician. I take it the OP has been to The Session, and one of the reasons I don't go back there any more is the negativity, pompousness and general superiority of certain posters. I don't want to see it here, so as someone who has played folk guitar for forty years plus before adding mandola, bouzouki, octave mandola, mandolin, cittern, lute and other instruments to my assembly over those same four decades, I can say that I've heard equally dire playing coming from violin, whistle and of course the thumpety-thump bodhran brigade. In fact I've seen many a fiddler, whistler or footer attend a session with a brand-new-out-of-the-box instrument too, or with their entire repertoire coming from playing along with one CD. Does this make them superior to a guitarist? Of course not. It's the ability, how they play and what they play, not the instrument. I don't believe in putting anyone down because of the instrument they play; otherwise I'd be getting rid of the excellent live set from Arty McGlynn and John Carty that I'm currently listening to. I like nothing better than going to a session of so-called 'proper' trad instrument players and rattling off a set of tunes on a guitar, just for badness.
Watch the clip and tell me they're not welcome at a session.

https://youtu.be/wWaaLU0OhmY

[Dagger Gordon]

I'm not sure we aren't slightly overstating the case here.
In Scotland at any rate, there is usually at least one guitarist involved and I prefer it that way. Indeed, if there is no rhythm player I will usually do it myself.

Remember that much of the tradition in Scotland has been based around Scottish Country Dance Bands. In the old days, a classic line-up could often be TWO lead players - box and fiddle, and FOUR rhythm or accompanying players - second box, piano, double bass and drums.
It's a bit different now with accordionists using midi etc, but my point is that someone playing rhythm is pretty fundamental in Scottish music and is what most punters in the pub (as opposed to only the musicians) might expect to hear. A 'session' is probably perceived as quite a 'folky' thing, and it would be normal to see a guitarist.
And you really don't have to be as good as Arty McGlynn!

A pub session is - to my mind at least - a form of performance. The pub will often advertise Scottish or Irish music, and you are expected to play exactly that for the benefit of tourists and locals as well as any musicians. You may well have a core couple of musicians paid by the bar to make sure something happens, but after that you take who you get. Some nights are obviously going to be better than others.

[Bertram Henze]

It's the ability, how they play and what they play, not the instrument.

I agree that it is the player rather than the instrument. We are only talking about the short moment of uncertainty before the new player actually starts to play and his/her ability is revealed. A bad melody player can turn up (you didn't mention piano accordionists stumbling all over their keyboards in search of the tune), but they are just statistically less likely to appear than bad guitar players, hence the prejudice, but it all becomes clear pretty quickly.

[Bren]

A pub session is - to my mind at least - a form of performance. The pub will often advertise Scottish or Irish music, and you are expected to play exactly that for the benefit of tourists and locals as well as any musicians. You may well have a core couple of musicians paid by the bar to make sure something happens, but after that you take who you get. Some nights are obviously going to be better than others.
Heh. That would get them seriously bent out of shape at "thesession.org", although I agree with every word.

All I ask is that the guitarist lets the other instruments breathe. Never usually a problem with one guitar, no matter what standard, often a problem with more than one, no matter how good.

It does remind me of a non-session night* at Aberdeen's notorious Lampie.

I was in for a quiet drink with a guitarist friend when some French tourists came in enquiring about "la musique celtique".

The landlord pulled an old guitar out of the closet and shouted across at my friend, "Oy, this folk's wantin' music!"
Friend duly obliged and a couple of texts later we had whistler and a fiddler on the way and a great night was had by all.

(*non "regular" session, but any night could be session night)

[Bertram Henze]

All I ask is that the guitarist lets the other instruments breathe.

I guess that's what they invented the border pipes for - takes a hundred guitars to be even heard, let alone drown out the melody. :grin:

[foldedpath]

I guess that's what they invented the border pipes for - takes a hundred guitars to be even heard, let alone drown out the melody. :grin:

Even the quieter ones like smallpipes will dominate. The only way to fight back, is to call a tune with a G sharp in it.
:grin:

[Mike Anderson]

I take it the OP has been to The Session, and one of the reasons I don't go back there any more is the negativity, pompousness and general superiority of certain posters.

Likewise. If you read through The Session for comments regarding bodhran, bouzouki, guitar etc, you'd conclude most session players despise these instruments. If on the other hand you joined the bodojo bodhran Facebook site, you could only conclude, as I did, that in Ireland at least this bodhran hatred has nothing to do with Irish sessions, and is some kind of archaic holdover among a small but noisy and repetitious group of chauvinists who may have zero connection to either Ireland or Scotland. I have every reason to suspect this also applies to guitar and bouzouki.

Sincere players who want to learn about the bodhran have to endure a barrage of utterly stupid jokes and plain insults when they ask for advice at The Session, over and over again like they're being answered by a parrot someone trained to type. I learned very quickly that there is practically nothing of value there, unless you like MIDI, notation, and ABC files of tunes, and I don't. I can only hope there are resources for guitarists as good as bodojo.

[Bertram Henze]

The only way to fight back, is to call a tune with a G sharp in it.
:grin:

Cheating! :))

[JeffD]

As a matter of interest, do you suppose if someone turned up with a bouzouki they would get be treated any differently, or is there an assumption that if you've bothered to get a bouzouki then you probably do know a bit about it?

Well that matches my experience. That the person brought a bouzouki likely means that the following assumptions are more likely to be true:

The person has listened to, or at least heard trad music before.
The person is familiar with the idiosyncrasies of trad musicians.
The person has played, at some level, this music before.
The person has played, at some level, at a session before.

[catmandu2]

Mike, I guess it's not without its merit to consider Sturgeon's axiom when reading/posting on fora - I've found it to be practical on every forum. But trads are going to be vehement, understandably - occurs on every forum.. The session is/has not been without its edge ;) .. the phenomena you mention are familiar to me as well. I have though, found much good info there (albeit - mostly historical), and even wading through the vitriol, when I used to.

To think - it used to be much worse on the old mustard!*

*At least, theoretically :)

[James Rankine]

.
A pub session is - to my mind at least - a form of performance. The pub will often advertise Scottish or Irish music, and you are expected to play exactly that for the benefit of tourists and locals as well as any musicians. You may well have a core couple of musicians paid by the bar to make sure something happens, but after that you take who you get. Some nights are obviously going to be better than others.

My experience comes from playing in sessions in Leeds where there is no fear of encountering passing tourists. The only audience we usually get are other members of the session sitting out a tune because they don't know it. I was in a famous session bar in Edinburgh and noticed that they had a pint glass on the session table with a sign saying "tips". I thought this was a bit tacky, my attitude is "play because you want to, don't do it to entertain me". I had a mandolin with me back at the flat and had planned to fetch it if there was a good session. I didn't bother.
Having said that I would pay good money to hear Dagger play. That's one of the greatest joys of an open session, when you get a top class visiting musician passing through it's a real privilege to sit next to them and hear great music.

[Mike Anderson]

Mike, I guess it's not without its merit to consider Sturgeon's axiom when reading/posting on fora - I've found it to be practical on every forum. But trads are going to be vehement, understandably - occurs on every forum.. The session is/has not been without its edge ;) .. the phenomena you mention are familiar to me as well. I have though, found much good info there (albeit - mostly historical), and even wading through the vitriol, when I used to.

To think - it used to be much worse on the old mustard!*

*At least, theoretically :)

Makes sense; I shouldn't be so ready to throw out the baby with the bathwater. For those not familiar with Sturgeon's axiom (and I wasn't until I met a friend who is a huge devotee of Ted Sturgeon):

Derived from a quote by science fiction author Theodore Sturgeon, who once said, "Sure, 90% of science fiction is crud. That's because 90% of everything is crud." :grin:

[foldedpath]

Likewise. If you read through The Session for comments regarding bodhran, bouzouki, guitar etc, you'd conclude most session players despise these instruments. If on the other hand you joined the bodojo bodhran Facebook site, you could only conclude, as I did, that in Ireland at least this bodhran hatred has nothing to do with Irish sessions, and is some kind of archaic holdover among a small but noisy and repetitious group of chauvinists who may have zero connection to either Ireland or Scotland. I have every reason to suspect this also applies to guitar and bouzouki.

Sincere players who want to learn about the bodhran have to endure a barrage of utterly stupid jokes and plain insults when they ask for advice at The Session, over and over again like they're being answered by a parrot someone trained to type. I learned very quickly that there is practically nothing of value there, unless you like MIDI, notation, and ABC files of tunes, and I don't. I can only hope there are resources for guitarists as good as bodojo.

I think that's overstating it a bit. For one thing, the site owner cracked down on the more hostile posts a while back. Personally I think the place lost some valuable information from a few of the "crustier" members who left, after the new rules went into effect. But at least newcomers don't get jumped on now, which is a net positive.

It's still a very useful resource if you're a melody player, and not just for the huge tune database. It just takes a bit of a thick skin to realize that guitar and bodhran aren't beloved instruments for everyone over there, the way they are in a specific instrument support group like that bodojo bodhran Facebook group. Or the Mandolin Cafe, for that matter. Once you accept that reality, you can get useful info.

For example, here's a thread that popped up yesterday: "Which trad guitar instrumental songs that are popular and would be a good place to start in this genre (https://thesession.org/discussions/38083)?" It received some good answers, not general slagging. Here's another thread from a few days ago, about buying a high end guitar (https://thesession.org/discussions/38063), with 29 posts.

That said, thesession.org will probably always be a place where there is more discussion of melody playing, and melody-focused instruments, than discussion of accompaniment. Considering the melody-centric nature of Irish trad sessions... the fact that someone has to start the tunes and get the thing rolling, because it can't be the backers.... I don't think that's unusual.
:)

[Bertram Henze]

Considering the melody-centric nature of Irish trad sessions... the fact that someone has to start the tunes and get the thing rolling, because it can't be the backers.... I don't think that's unusual.
:)

We tried the English way of going round the table with starting tunesets. When it was the bodhran player's turn, I suggested she'd start and we'd guess which tune it was... :grin:

[Dagger Gordon]

My experience comes from playing in sessions in Leeds where there is no fear of encountering passing tourists. The only audience we usually get are other members of the session sitting out a tune because they don't know it. I was in a famous session bar in Edinburgh and noticed that they had a pint glass on the session table with a sign saying "tips". I thought this was a bit tacky, my attitude is "play because you want to, don't do it to entertain me". I had a mandolin with me back at the flat and had planned to fetch it if there was a good session. I didn't bother.
Having said that I would pay good money to hear Dagger play. That's one of the greatest joys of an open session, when you get a top class visiting musician passing through it's a real privilege to sit next to them and hear great music.

It's very kind of you to say so. However, I must say that most sessions I have been to DO have other people in the bar - not only tourists passing through but people popping in for a pint and hoping to hear a bit of music. Furthermore, the tourists have often come to the bar specifically to try to catch some music which they may well have heard is more 'authentic' than much of the more obviously touristy stuff we certainly get in Scotland (and I'm sure in most countries).
So while we might not be putting on a show exactly, I would hope that anyone who came to hear the session would quite enjoy it.