Oval or ff?

[Mark Gunter]

I've only been playing for a little less than a year, and the only mandolins I've had in my hands are my own: A 100 year old bowl back, and a new Ibanez starter (solid spruce pressed top, F-style). I am about ready to upgrade a bit, and I was wondering if some of you pickers could give me some understanding of why to choose one or another, either oval hole or ff, in an A-style mando. The two I am looking at are here:

http://themandolinstore.com/product/eastman-economy-a-oval-mandolin/

http://themandolinstore.com/product/eastman-entry-level-a-mandolin/

[sunburst]

What do you plan to use it for? What type(s) of music? Is it to be your only mandolin?

If you are simply getting a mandolin to play around the house, to learn with, that sort of thing, it really doesn't matter which you get, unless, of course, you have a preference for the sound of one or the other, and since you've asked here I assume you haven't developed a preference for oval hole sound or f-hole sound.

You'll get different takes on this, and various opinions, but I think you get more versatility form an f-hole mandolin. It can cut through an ensemble better than an oval hole, especially if you play Bluegrass, yet it can be a personal companion in your own practice room. It can do anything an oval hole mandolin can do also, though it will sound somewhat different.

[Mark Gunter]

Thanks John, the reason I am asking is because I don't know what differences the types of orifices make, really. You mention that an f hole instrument "can cut through and ensemble better", which I assume means they generally have more volume? You also mention that an f-hole "will sound somewhat different" than an oval . . . the reason for my post is to solicit opinions about what is the difference? In general, are f-holes "louder"? Do one or the other accentuate low-end or high-end? I am ignorant of all this.

To answer your questions, it won't be my only mandolin, as I do not plan to get rid of my bowl back. I plan to use it learn with, as well as to play with groups that I already play guitar with, and to play around with at a monthly bluegrass jam, and perhaps to perform before audiences with, although the guitar is my main instrument. I love the sound of the mandolin, and the standard tuning of the mandolin. I have been learning some Irish fiddle tunes thus far, and noodling with ideas from pop and country music.

While the two mandolins I own now are working fine for learning, I believe that the hand-carved Eastmans may offer a sweeter sound for me, and I'm wondering what might be the difference in sound between the f-hole style versus the oval?

[Mark Gunter]

I can add that, while the Ibanez sounds pretty good to me, the bowl back has a much more mellow sound. But I can't attribute the difference to the orifices . . . the oval hole bowl back is aged solid woods, while the f-hole Ibanez has laminates back and sides. In the case of the links I shared, these are both very similar construction, one with f-holes and one with oval. What difference in tones could I expect between the two?

[Seattle]

I'm just a beginner but I too have an oval hole bowlback and an A style F hole (KM-150) which is similar to the choices that you presently have. I can tell the difference between the two...can't you?

The oval hole has a more mellow sound and the F hole has a "sharper" sound. I can't imagine it would be any different on the two Eastmans that you mentioned.

[Mark Gunter]

Thanks Seattle! See my last post (sent simultaneously with yours). There is such a difference between aged, solid tone woods vs. laminates, I don't think the sound holes are responsible, but I could be way off base.

[Seattle]

Thanks Seattle! See my last post (sent simultaneously with yours). There is such a difference between aged, solid tone woods vs. laminates, I don't think the sound holes are responsible, but I could be way off base.

I'm sure someone will respond with more experience that I. :) Neither of my mandolins are laminates however. I'm not even sure solid wood other than the sound board makes all that much difference (I could be wrong however). :)

[Mark Gunter]

Thanks again, Seattle, my Ibanez is a new instrument with solid spruce top but laminated back and sides. The bowl back definitely sounds more mellow, and to me has an "aged" sound. I like that sound better. But not sure if that's due to the oval hole. Maybe I'll just have to learn the differences on my own.

[chuck3]

I have one of each. Here is my take on the difference.

The ff style has a crisper sound and projects more because of the soundhole design. It's better for bluegrass, if that is your goal, especially if you are playing unamplified or around one mic in traditional bluegrass style.

The oval hole has a mellower sound and some natural reverb (to my ear). Better for jazz as well as old time, depending on what that means to you.

Both my mandos have K&K pickups in them so projection is not a big issue with me in most situations. I prefer the oval's natural reverb for the music I play, but I don't play bluegrass (at least on mando, I have on upright bass). I play mando in a band doing mostly originals, and my function is basically the same as a lead guitarist. I like the oval better for that.

However, those who say the ff is superior are not wrong, because in many situations it is.

[chuck3]

By the way, both those Eastmans are very nice and good value for the price, so I don't think you are going wrong either way. I don't currently own an Eastman, but they were my "upgrade" instruments as well.

[colorado_al]

Talking about the sound of an instrument to get an idea of what it sounds like is really tough. You need to play them (or hear them played) to get a real understanding of the sounds. Here's a local luthier that you should contact. http://www.deatherage-violins.com/
Ask if they have any that you can play or listen to.

That being said, check out Stephen Perry's great description here: http://www.giannaviolins.com/esmando/info/Beginner1.html

[FLATROCK HILL]

Maybe I'll just have to learn the differences on my own.

Yes, you will. That will not only be the best way to learn, but the most rewarding. As your signature line says... "fun, fun, fun."

[sunburst]

[QUOTE=markscarts;1434856You mention that an f hole instrument "can cut through and ensemble better", which I assume means they generally have more volume?[/QUOTE]

Not really. Neither is necessarily louder, but the two types have tendencies, including different "peaks". There are different emphases on different frequencies in the overtone series of the sounds. Oval hole mandolins tend to compete more with guitars and other instruments, while f-holes tend to emphasize frequencies that are not so crowded in an ensemble, so they can be heard better above the sound of other instruments.

Yep, you'll pretty much have to learn for yourself what the difference in sound is. I can say "an oval hole mandolin has a mellower, rounder sound and an f-hole has a more focused sound", but what have I said? Do those descriptions means the same things to you as they do to me? Probably not...

[chuck3]

Neither is necessarily louder, but the two types have tendencies, including different "peaks". There are different emphases on different frequencies in the overtone series of the sounds. Oval hole mandolins tend to compete more with guitars and other instruments, while f-holes tend to emphasize frequencies that are not do crowded in an ensemble, so they can be heard better above the sound of other instruments.

That's a good description, except depending on the combination of instruments the oval hole (I would say) complements the guitar rather than competes. But in many ensembles including the trad bluegrass quintet, the ff will cut through better.

[Mark Gunter]

@colorado_al, I know Mr. Deatherage and have dealt with him a bit, but haven't spoken to him about mandolins as yet. Also, I agree that Stephen Perry has given a really good description and info for beginners. Thanks for the link.

[k0k0peli]

If I'm sitting around the house playing (which is most of the time) I prefer the mellowness of my three ovals (Celtic, flattop, and mandola) to the sharpness of my three ff-holes (an F2 and two A-types, admittedly all cheap). If I want to cut through other sounds, well, that's what grandpa's banjo-mandolin is for. The best banjo-killer is another banjo. ;)

Depending on your finances you might consider multiple mandos for different situations. All mine are setup differently; no one tool suits all needs. My flattop and banjo-mandolin are down in bluesy EBf#c# or EBf#b tunings. My mandola and an A-type are in Irish GDad tuning for singing open strings and top-courses guitar tricks. My Celtic, F2, and the other A-type are in standard GDae because I gotta maintain *some* standards, hey?

I am going to dump the small-voiced F2 and upgrade to a louder ff-hole. I'll set a price range, hit all the music shops within reach, find one that sings to me, and that'll be it. But I may also look for a resonator mandolin and again it will be one I've played and felt. The best way to judge an instrument is to actually handle it, evoke sounds from it, feel for a bond. These things are personal.

[crisscross]

The shape of the soundhole(s) isn't the only difference between the Eastman 04s and the 05s. With the oval hole mandos, the neck joins the body at the 12.fret, 138877whereas with the f-hole a-style mandos, it's the 14. fret.138878 That puts the bridge in a different place. Guess I read somewhere, that this accounts for the sound differences as much as the different soundhole shapes. There are modern oval holes, where the neck joins the body at the 14. fret. I once had a Lebeda 14 fret oval hole. You could say it was "Best of both worlds" but I'd rather call it "Neither fish nor fowl"

[sunburst]

Guess I read somewhere, that this accounts for the sound differences as much as the different soundhole shapes.

Studies have been done on how mandolins produce sound, and we are free to look them up and read them. It is the placement of the hole(s) that make the most difference in sound, followed somewhat distantly by the total amount of sound hole area, then perhaps the position of the bridge, though I'm not convinced it makes enough difference to really matter. The actual shape of the hole(s) makes no difference in sound (or at least so little that it doesn't really matter).

[Bob A]

Bracing patterns have an effect on sound. Obviously the bracing for ff and oval would have to be different.

[sunburst]

Bracing patterns have an effect on sound...

Not much. It is the total stiffness of the top that makes the biggest difference. Local stiffness of the top can make some difference too, but it really doesn't make much difference what bracing we use to establish the total stiffness and local stiffness of the top. Arching, thickness, graduation, and other factors all work together, along with stiffness and mass to determine how the top behaves. Braces act as structural elements as well as providing a means for the luthier to adjust stiffness and mass of the top. That's only part of the story, however. The top is influenced by the rest of the instrument, especially the back.
Hole position (not so much shape), on the other hand, has a noticeable effect on how the air within the instrument behaves, and that can make a noticeable difference in what we hear.

[k0k0peli]

How would you more experienced (than I) players characterize the tonal difference between flattop vs carved mandos? I only have oval apples-n-oranges to compare so I won't try. Are ff-hole flattops (if any) tonally distinct from carved A- and F-types?

[Hany Hayek]

I have only played bowl backs and a banjo mandolin.
I can only say never give up your bowl back.
As for F holes vs ovals from the vids on youtube, oval sound seem to have more sustain.

[chuck3]

I grew up with a bowl back in the house, and I have no idea what happened to it when my parents moved on. I also have a banjo mandolin, and I think it's a difficult instrument in terms of intonation.

I can't disagree with never giving up your bowl back. I don't like giving up any of them!

All that said, your point about oval seeming to have more sustain is why I prefer an oval - if everything else is equal, which it's not always. In a traditional bluegrass setting, an ff is preferable.

[Seattle]

I wouldn't think the hole would have much to do with sustain.

[Mark Gunter]

@crisscross, thanks for pointing out the other differences, I hadn't noticed. @Hany Hayek, not much chance I would rid myself of my bowl back.

[Mark Gunter]

I was unable to afford the Eastman just yet, so I found a great price on the Washburn M106SW. I had decided that I need to go with f-holes. Looking forward to breaking the Washburn in.

[JeffD]

I wonder if you haven't jumped ahead a bit. If you predominantly play bluegrass then an arch top is the way to go, and likely the ff hole is the best. If that bluegrassy sound is not what you are after, might I suggest a nice flat top. A good quality flat tops are often a better build for a better price. And they can do everything wonderfully, with the exception of that bluegrass sound. There are no end of choices and varieties (http://www.mandolincafe.com/archives/builders/flattop.html) to chose from. Big Muddy is a favorite of mine, as well as any of the old pancake style Army Navy mandolins.

I am not trying to talk you out of anything, just widening the options a bit. Folks often jump to the arch top, A style or F, oval hole or ff holes, perhaps without considering the full range of available options. There is a premium paid for the arch top. A flat top can often be found that does everything you want, at a price that in an arch top might indicate compromises in build or materials. Though, as with anything else mandolin, you can spend as much as you want, or more. :)

Oh I see I am late to the party. Well if this information can help other mando-hunters its not a complete waste of time.

[Perry]

I believe that if you are fan of the percussive rhythmic qualities of the mandolin then an F hole is required. Otherwise it is subjective.

[darrylicshon]

I used to have a Washburn F style and didn't like it much it didn't have a good or loud sound. I hope yours will be better.

[Mark Gunter]

Thanks for all the responses. Darryl, I hope so, too. I wanted an A style, carved top in that color finish, and the price and nut width of this one sealed the deal. I'll let y'all know how it all turns out.

After reading the responses and following links in this thread, I decided that f-holes would be more to my use, at least at this stage in the game.

[Steve Ostrander]

I agree completely with John's assessment on the difference in sound. One thing you may notice--at least I did when I owned an Eastman md804--is that it will sound louder to the player, whereas an f-hole mando will project out from the player, and perhaps not sound as loud to the player, but sound louder to the audience, which is what we mean by projection. I'm always amazed when someone else plays my f-hole, or I hear it recorded, that it sounds louder than I perceive it to be. I like the bark and the bite of an f-hole, but I don't play Celtic, OT or ITM. If I could only own one mando, it would be an f-hole. But nobody owns just one mando, right?

[foldedpath]

I like the bark and the bite of an f-hole, but I don't play Celtic, OT or ITM. If I could only own one mando, it would be an f-hole. But nobody owns just one mando, right?

Harrumph.... well, some of us do. ;)

Unless you count my octave mandolin, I have just the one F-hole, F-style mandolin. And I use it pretty much exclusively for Irish and Scottish trad these days. I like playing Irish trad on an archtop F-hole mandolin for the same reason a Bluegrass player does: It's a clear, focused tone that can be heard among other instruments.

That's even more important in ITM than it is in Bluegrass, I think, since this music often involves sitting among a group of fiddlers, whistlers, tenor banjo players, and the occasional piper, where playing a mandolin is already the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gunfight. At least good projection gives you half a chance to be heard.

I do recognize that some people prefer the "sweeter" or more complex sound of an oval hole for ITM and OldTime. My personal approach to Irish and Scottish music is less aimed at sounding pretty, and more aimed at a harder-edged tone. Maybe it's the pipes influence, or my ear has been bent by playing this one F-hole mandolin for so long. I just like it better for this music. Your mileage may vary, as the mandolin is not exactly well-established in ITM, and there's still a lot of room for personal preference in tone.

[JeffD]

I do recognize that some people prefer the "sweeter" or more complex sound of an oval hole for ITM and OldTime. My personal approach to Irish and Scottish music is less aimed at sounding pretty, and more aimed at a harder-edged tone. Maybe it's the pipes influence, or my ear has been bent by playing this one F-hole mandolin for so long. I just like it better for this music. Your mileage may vary, as the mandolin is not exactly well-established in ITM, and there's still a lot of room for personal preference in tone.

Two important points you bring to my mind:

One is that the sweeter more complex tone, which I believe is a characteristic of an oval, is totally lost in a big jam. Even the extra percussiveness of the ff hole is sometimes not enough. I have taken to jamming with my resonator at times.

In smaller intimate ensembles, small jams in my living room or kitchen, etc., where everyone can be heard, really really heard, I prefer the sound of an oval.

It also seems to depend on the venue. If the jam or acoustic performance is in open air, for example, or the wrong room, the tone quality seems to never make it to the audience. I wish I had a better understanding of the acoustics of rooms and performance spaces, so that I could get better control over this without resorting to a microphone.

My kitchen has the most wonderful acoustic properties, and the sweet, complex, creamy tone of my A2 oval is so apparent I want to bottle it up and sell it.


Secondly, I think our ears get acclimated to our own tone, to some degree at least, and there is a way that it becomes a preference.


Look, whyn't y'all come over to my kitchen to hear how I can sound. I'll put up some chili and cornbread, and serve up some Knob Creek, or Jefferson's Reserve, and we can have a jam. (I just got some green chili from friends in south west New Mexico, and it won't last.)

[k0k0peli]

That's even more important in ITM than it is in Bluegrass, I think, since this music often involves sitting among a group of fiddlers, whistlers, tenor banjo players, and the occasional piper, where playing a mandolin is already the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gunfight. At least good projection gives you half a chance to be heard. A banjo-mandolin comes in handy there. The best banjo-killer is another banjo. ;) Does anyone bring resonator mandos to ITM fests?

We can endlessly discuss the merits of different hole shapes, body types, etc. Some folks use one instrument to fill many niches, one-size-fits-all approach. Some (me included) prefer different tools for different purposes. My KE Coleman oval-mouth with heavy strings has a good woody bluegrass sound but also complex Celtic tones. My Soviet flattop and old banjo-mandolin detuned three 1/2-steps give nice chunky but distinct blues-y sounds. My cheap Rogue f-hole tuned GDAD gives a nice ringing sound with open strings and good choppy chords when barred. I wonder what my old Kay f-hole will sound like when I restring it with the courses in octaves rather than unisons? And I long for the very different sound of a bowlback.

I know I'm veering from what-type to how-many but consider it from an acoustic guitar perspective. One guitar does not suit all purposes. I play very different repertoires on dobro, 6- and 12-steel-string gits, and nylon-strung classical. I can and sometimes do play the same stuff on them all but their distinct sounds have varied impacts. Different tools for different tasks.

[DavidKOS]

Perhaps contrast would be best, and with a bowlback one of the biggest contrasts in tone is an F hole model. Oval hole instruments are lovely, but I'd go for the most difference in tonal color.

[foldedpath]

A banjo-mandolin comes in handy there. The best banjo-killer is another banjo. ;) Does anyone bring resonator mandos to ITM fests?

Banjomandolins are nasty little things. There is one owned by a friend, and stashed here in our house for temporary safekeeping. Although that's turned into a few years now... he doesn't like to play it, I don't like it either. Maybe good for ragtime and Vaudeville music? I can't imagine that "plunk plunk" sound for anything else. Even a regular banjo is better, and that's saying something.
:)

Regarding resonator mandolins at ITM sessions.... I've never seen one used in my area, but I know some folks here at the Cafe like Jeff (above) use them. I've thought about trying it, but two things stop me. One is that the preferred model seems to be the National RM-1, and I'm not sure I'd like the wider nut.

The second reason is the slippery slope towards tenor banjo, which seems like the more obvious move if the only thing I'm looking for is more volume, and I'm willing to give up the tone I like hearing from my wooden archtop F-hole mandolin. I just don't want to go there. I'll settle for lower volume and a tone I like. Besides, the other instrument I'm trying to get up to session speed is "Irish" flute, which is as loud as a fiddle and solves the volume issue. I'm just not that good at it yet, so the mandolin is still my main ITM session machine.

[mandroid]

I like My Vega Little Wonder .. some tone control is gained by a piece of stuff behind the head under the Bridge.
Quality matters..

Sponge, old sox, some foam . lots of things go between the rim stick and the Head.

4 stringed some lower cost BMs, their single strings are doubling the ITB an Octave Up.

[k0k0peli]

Banjomandolins are nasty little things. And? ;)


The second reason is the slippery slope towards tenor banjo, which seems like the more obvious move if the only thing I'm looking for is more volume, and I'm willing to give up the tone I like hearing from my wooden archtop F-hole mandolin. For a quiet mini-tenor banjo, get a concert or tenor banjo-'ukulele and string it with an Aquila Nylgut Concert Fifths set 31U. Might not be loud enough for ITM jams though. Oh well.

At the risk of digressing: The 'uke family has a range of convenient instrument scale lengths -- 14-inch soprano (like mandolin), 15-inch concert, 17-inch tenor, and 19-inch baritone (like mandola). The three smaller sizes are all tuned the same; the largest is tuned a fifth down. IMHO the mando family could use intermediate-size instruments. To keep their voices high and distinct (but louder) their ff-holes could be adjusted for higher resonant frequencies. A concert-size mando might be 1/3 louder than standard. That might help in those loud jams, hey?