Gilchrist Model 5 - how long to get it to open up?

[alexzen]

I just acquired a 2006 Gilchrist 5. I believe it was a collector's instrument that was lightly played. Not in the archives. I am a bit disappointed in its tone. Very playable, but quite bright with very little low end. When compared to my 80's Kentucky Dawg F5 (a $3-4K mandolin) I was surprised that the Kentucky Dawg had much more tone in the low end. Now the difference is that the Dawg is from the 80's and the Gilchrist is less than 10 years old, and if it has not been played maybe I should consider it almost brand new.

It shipped with lighter strings than I play. So, I will put some J74's on it and see what happens.

Wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience - buying a collector's mando that has never been opened up.

[trevor]

J74's will help. Time to open up is an unknown. If the action is very low raising it may also help. I hope you get it to sound how you want.

[Ivan Kelsall]

As Trevor advises,check the action & set it to ''what's right for the mandolin'' right now, in order to increase the volume slightly. In the future,after that mandolin's been played for a while,you may be able to bring the action down slightly. One other thing,let the mandolin 'warm up' physically. Leave it to reach a warm room temperature & see if it opens up. I've found that to happen many times. My mandolins when cold,sound tight & constricted,but when they warm up a bit,the sound opens up considerably.I played my Weber Fern yesterday, & straight from it's case,it sounded just as i said - tight & constricted without it's usual volume. After 15 / 20 minutes of playing in a warm room it was singing !. The J74's should help bring out it's tone,but try maybe a set of GHS A270's. Similar gauges to J74's,but with .016" A strings instead of the usual .015" gauge. They're a very sweetly toned string indeed.Tom Ellis of Ellis mandolins favourite string & he should know what he's talking about.
Bets of luck with your Gil.,it should come good with a lot of playing,
Ivan;)

[Glassweb]

a friend of mine who's owned many, many Gils swears by the fact that these mandolins need a year of playing before they start to open up and/or blossom and i'm sure he's right. that said, i feel that if a mandolin is lacking in solid fundamentals (volume, balance, tone and consistency up the neck) it may never become the all-around great mandolin that we're all looking for. as much as a Gil F5 costs i must ask you this question... can you really afford to keep a mandolin that you're not excited about?

[Nick Gellie]

I am really sorry to hear that you are not connecting with your Gilchrist straight up. It is really tough when you have forked out some good dough to purchase a high end instrument and it does not meet your expectations. I would take some of the above advice and let it sit for a little while seeing whether it will change in tone to your satisfaction. Sometimes when we have two very good mandolins one will affect what we might think of the other.

[Mandoplumb]

I know there is some doubt about the opening up of instruments but I believe it. I once bought a mandolin (Flatiron) that was almost 10 years old but sounded "new". I knew it's history and it had been played very little, it took some time before it sounded as I thought it should.

[grassrootphilosopher]

I just acquired a 2006 Gilchrist 5. I believe it was a collector's instrument that was lightly played. Not in the archives. I am a bit disappointed in its tone. Very playable, but quite bright with very little low end. When compared to my 80's Kentucky Dawg F5 (a $3-4K mandolin) I was surprised that the Kentucky Dawg had much more tone in the low end. Now the difference is that the Dawg is from the 80's and the Gilchrist is less than 10 years old, and if it has not been played maybe I should consider it almost brand new.

It shipped with lighter strings than I play. So, I will put some J74's on it and see what happens.

Wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience - buying a collector's mando that has never been opened up.

Reading that you aparently own a 70ies Monteleone (presumably an F-5 rather than the "Dawg"-Model) I wonder if you could elaborate the difference in tone etc. as opposed to your Gilchrist. Would a direct comparison between Kentucky vs. Monte echo your findings concerning the comparison between Kentucky vs. Gil?

I have found that Gilchrist mandolins starting at the turn of the century are some of the best yet.

Also it is necessary to know your idea of tone. Solo mandolin may mandate more bass but in ensemble playing more bass may be a hindrance. Each instrument fills out its niche in the musical ensemble.

Also a "green" sounding mandolin is just that but not necessarily a bad sounding instrument. A good green sounding instrument allways seems somewhat "shrill" to me. A mellow sounding green instrument will sound muddy after some years. So shrill and green is not necessarily bad.

I´m interested.

[David Smith]

If the J74 strings do not seem to do the trick try a set of DR-MD 11's. I recently acquired a 2014 Mowry F5 which arrived with a new set of J74's in place and was a bit put off by how bright and tight it sounded. After 3 months with the j74's I replaced them with the DR-MD11's and the difference was immediate and profound. The Mowry produced the exact sound I was looking for.

[AlanN]

I just acquired a 2006 Gilchrist 5. I believe it was a collector's instrument that was lightly played. Not in the archives. I am a bit disappointed in its tone. Very playable, but quite bright with very little low end. When compared to my 80's Kentucky Dawg F5 (a $3-4K mandolin) I was surprised that the Kentucky Dawg had much more tone in the low end. Now the difference is that the Dawg is from the 80's and the Gilchrist is less than 10 years old, and if it has not been played maybe I should consider it almost brand new.

It shipped with lighter strings than I play. So, I will put some J74's on it and see what happens.

Wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience - buying a collector's mando that has never been opened up.

Shoot an email to the man, see what he says.

[Willie Poole]

I know two people that have Gils and neither one was/is happy with what they have, not up to what they hoped they would be but I can`t say if they needed a set up or what they expected from a mandolin, I will say that neither one of them did much for me either but I have heard other Gils that knocked my socks off, so I guess even the best makers can make some that don`t live up to what their reputations is....I would like to have one of those Gils just to see if I could get it to sound better...

Willie

[Mandobar]

I have heard this from a few folks, and I have to admit that this is one of the reasons that I can never get myself to write that check.

[Perry]

I have a 2004 Model 5 X Braced...it was great right out of the case but it was a bit tight....now it sounds fantastic even if dormant for several months BUT when I whomp on it for 60 or so minutes it becomes a raging beast......or a seductive siren. So it takes little naps in between work sessions.

When I hit the high E string up around the 12th fret it can sound like a grand piano...

Steve included very specific parameters for proper set up. I have attached a scanned copy.

J74's at least.....lights uh no....

I have a 2011 Kimble A5 that has become something really special in the last 7 or so months.
Mike Compton has mentioned how his "Gil 5" changed after many years and much playing. He referred to it as the "plates" shifting.


138445

[Mandobar]

Matt Flinner says the same about his, and it too is x-braced.

[AlanN]

Steve included very specific parameters for proper set up. I have attached a scanned copy.



Excellent, Perry. Was this excerpted from Steve's well-crafted schema book he did some years ago? I have that somewhere...

[Perry]

No Alan just a little four panel on heavy stock that looks like Steve printed himself...still have my Gil pick glued to the front :)

[Denman John]

I hope everything works out for the OP. I assume from the outline given, he didn't have a chance to play it before parting with his money. Although I have done it in the past, I hope that I don't ever have to buy another instrument before being able to play it first ~ especially if it a fairly expensive one. With that said, sometimes you get lucky when your roll the dice.

[sgrexa]

Gil is one of the most foremost experts on Loars in the world. He has studied more than most, and from what you describe it sounds like it is operating as designed. Bass is not the strong point, but as others have pointed out, this will develop. Midrange cut is what he likely intended. Maybe Gil is not your cup of tea? There are many, many builders that design bass heavy mandolins, and this is a sound that I too enjoy from time to time but when it comes down to hard driving BG, I'll take that Loar / Gil midrange cut any day.

Sean

[barry]

Is it the '06 Model 5 that recently sold from Carter's? A friend of mine went on a mandolin tasting through Nashville a couple of months ago and proclaimed that one "best in show". He mentioned that it had great tone and playability, but was not particularly loud. Are we discussing the same instrument?

[DataNick]

I empathize with the OP and sincerely hope he gets the tonal qualities out of his new Gil that he expects. One of the best mandolins for my tonal palette that I've ever heard was a Gil. I've played 2 Gils; one was OK (to me), the other one was a really good mandolin, like my F5L, but not necessarily "better". Personally speaking, I would not buy the "uber" priced mandos (Gil, Dude, Nugget, Monteleone, etc) looking to get that "uber" toned-mando monster. If I had the capital, I would buy a mandolin like that for primarily the collectibility characteristics as opposed to tonal qualities. If I'm looking for the ultimate tone monster to my ears, then I really believe you have to get out there and play them; or have them shipped for trial purposes. You just never know from mandolin to mandolin or within & without brands, how a mandolin is going to "speak" to you. It is well documented on this site that what speaks to each of us is different, and the "one" may not be as expensive as the "uber" mandos...

All of that being said, here's hoping that the OP's mando just simply needs a Gil-specific set-up and playing-in!

[allenhopkins]

There's a certain risk buying an instrument in the hope it'll sound better as time goes on, and you play it more.

Somewhat similar to starting a committed relationship in hopes that the other party will "change and grow."

Not sayin' that what you hear on Day #1 is what you'll get forever, but every piece of wood is just a little bit different. One can generalize about any brand or builder's overall sound, but you're never guaranteed that any particular instrument will necessarily sound exactly that way.

So, better to be satisfied on Day #1, rather than expecting that on Day #1 + N, you'll get the sound you want -- and, apparently, expect.

[Perry]

Not that anyone is saying specifically so but I find it highly unlikely that Mr. Gilchrist built "a dog". Especially a 2006. I betcha it's a combination of set-up, light strings, little break in time and as Sean pointed out perhaps a misunderstanding of what a Gil is supposed to sound like. Personally I think that some builders voice their mandolins with too much low end. An open low G string is still pretty up there in register as far as string instruments go.

[fatt-dad]

put some real strings on it. Drive it with a thick pick - maybe try different points on the thick pick for variety.

Let your ear acclimate to the new sound.

(I don't really believe in the voodoo of, "Opening up." I believe it takes your ear a bit of time to sensitize to the new intrument. I also believe it takes time to know what a new instrument can/cannot do.)

Then again, it could be a dog. . . ?. . . !

f-d

[JAK]

If you can play/compare it to some other Gils you will get a better perspective of what you have, or don't have....

[DataNick]

Not that anyone is saying specifically so but I find it highly unlikely that Mr. Gilchrist built "a dog". Especially a 2006. I betcha it's a combination of set-up, light strings, little break in time and as Sean pointed out perhaps a misunderstanding of what a Gil is supposed to sound like. Personally I think that some builders voice their mandolins with too much low end. An open low G string is still pretty up there in register as far as string instruments go.

I think the scenario being played out here is after spending >$20K on an instrument, you expect it to be at that price the absolute monster of all tone monsters, volume, and playability. NO luthier can produce the EXACT same results in an instrument every time out because of the nature of human frailty and differences in wood. I think the better luthiers reduce process variation to the point where they produce a consistent product, but consistency doesn't mean every one is the same; just a consistency to the build, tonal characteristics, etc. And when you add in temperature variations, set-up nuances, etc, it just makes it even more tricky. This fact however does not temper our expectations that if I pay a certain level of $$, then it should sound and play like gold...I even tend to think that way before I catch myself and realize it's a fool's errand to think so!

I have played Nuggets, Gils, and Master Models that were by no means "dogs", but they weren't the end of the rainbow either, nor would I have taken any in a straight up swap for my F5L, and as I remarked to a couple of mando friends after taste testing those mandos, "if I would have just forked over $20K for that, Id be bummed!"...so in risk of sounding like a broken record, you really do just have to play'em to find your rainbow's end.

As I say in my signature line: "Mandolin brands are a guide, not gospel!"

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Steve Gilchrist (in his manual) suggests 1.5 mms string action in the clear at the 12th fret. Seems a bit low to me; just saying.

[sgarrity]

I have more to say on this later when I have time, but depending on the year/era built Gils can sound very different. He's not making mandolins that sound like Ronnie's anymore.

[DataNick]

I have ore to say on this later when I have time, but depending on the year/era built Gils can sound very different. He's not making mandolins that sound like Ronnie's anymore.

Thanks Shaun for that bit of info!...That's probably the reference point for a lot of us...that thing (McCoury's Gil) is an absolute "beast"...and those tonal properties are kind of what I expected from the 2 that I played: one was close; the other one was on the quiet, thin side...from either side of the mando, behind or in front.

[Mandoplumb]

I know I shouldn't say this on this forum but I've heard several Loars that I didn't think was great mandolins. No dogs, but not as great as more average mandolins selling at a fraction of the price. For collectabilty names mean something, for personal preference in tone the only way to tell is play em.

[Nick Gellie]

I have both my mandolins - a Collings MT2-O and a Northfield Model M set to 1.4-1.6 mm at the 12th fret. I would suggest that the OP try out the new Artist series Northfield F5s coming onto the market. There is a great video of Mike Marshall trying several out - a really nice balanced sound coming from them - like both my Collings MT2-O and my Model M. Steve is going for a mid-rangy and not a bassy mandolin so often sought by pickers these days. The OP might get used to that or he might not.

[almeriastrings]

At risk of pointing out the obvious... just because a mandolin costs 5K, 10K, 15K or 200K it does not automatically mean you will fall in love with it.... someone else might, but we do not all share identical tastes. As for instruments breaking in, I believe they do, but at the same time if a mandolin does not pretty quickly get my attention as an great sounding instrument (to me) I'd not be tempted to stay with it too long.

[kudzugypsy]

i commissioned a Gil and received it brand spanking new in July of 2008 - had a gig that very night and was itching to try it out. it was the brightest sounding mandolin i had ever heard...bright in a good way, clear and snappy - i thought, ok, this is different, not like the other Gil's i had played, but you are in that euphoric phase of finally having one after 15+ years of wishing.
That mando 1 year later was TOTALLY different and really took on its voice after 3-4 years of steady playing. it is easily one of the most powerful mandolins i have played to the point i've yet again had to readjust my technique to it.

this is just what i have heard here - you know its the 'internet' - but i think steve mentioned the whole reason he went back to parallel tone bars was that they aged/broke in/developed, whatever to full tonal maturity over time - the X bracing was a means to get the max sound right off the bat in a new instrument. they pretty much sound 20 years later what they sounded like new (not brand new off the bench).
the // tone bar mandos are really bright and will develop that mid-range and bass over time - and that is exactly what i experienced.


i have also owned a KM-Dawg...it was cool and different, but no match in a bluegrass situation - very weak volume. if you have one louder than a Gil - shoot me a PM.

[Caleb]

I completely believe in instruments changing over time. I've seen/heard it happen with my own instruments. Something else comes to mind too. If you watch the John Reischman video about his Loar that Fretboard Journal put out, he alludes to the possibility of "playing in" certain tones on a particular instrument. That makes sense to me. If a musician constantly plays a certain way, which will focus on certain tones and characteristics of a particular instrument, it only makes sense that those characteristics will be enhanced over time, simply out of repetition if nothing else.

[allenhopkins]

Agree that instruments "change over time"; would be pretty weird if they didn't...?

But -- will they change in the direction their owners want? Will they start to sound like other "played-in" instruments by the same builder? Or will they acquire their own unique voices? (Which may be unlike what the owners expect.)

Reiterate my earlier point: buying an instrument with a voice that's not what you expect -- and maybe not what you want -- with the expectation that "playing it in" will produce the sound you're after, is a crapshoot. May happen, may not.

Buying a super-quality mandolin like a Gilchrist means that you get a top-line instrument by anyone's standards. Will it necessarily sound just like other Gilchrists you admire? Maybe not. If you play it for a few months or years, will it then sound just like other Gilchrists you admire? Again, maybe not.

Good point was made above, that part of "playing in" an mandolin involves getting used to its sound, so that sound becomes the standard expected output of our mandolin. Plus, there are all the other factors: string brands and gauges, picks, set-up, the environment in which it's played -- even increasing musical skill, adapting one's style to the instrument. It's an ongoing process, and any snapshot taken at a certain point in the process may or may not reflect the direction the process is taking, and the eventual outcome of the process.

[Willie Poole]

Allen is correct in my opinion, I had a mandolin that sounded great right out of the box and a few years later it had lost just about everything, it could have been the lack of keeping it set up correctly because in those days I didn`t know any thing about set ups...Also as stated above different people look for and expect different things from a mandolin that they buy...even if you try one first before buying don`t mean an awful lot ...WOOD CHANGES OVER TIME....

Willie

[FLATROCK HILL]

If you watch the John Reischman video about his Loar that Fretboard Journal put out, he alludes to the possibility of "playing in" certain tones on a particular instrument. That makes sense to me. If a musician constantly plays a certain way, which will focus on certain tones and characteristics of a particular instrument, it only makes sense that those characteristics will be enhanced over time, simply out of repetition if nothing else.


I had a mandolin that sounded great right out of the box and a few years later it had lost just about everything...

So...some mandolins change for the better. They are, as Caleb says "enhanced over time" by the repetition of certain tones.

Other mandolins, the more tone you pull from them, the less that remains.

I hope the OP has one of the former.

(While I do believe mandolins can improve over time, I think your best bet is to pick one you like from the beginning.)

[onassis]

This sounds like a great opportunity for some Tone-Rite experimentation.

[mandroid]

stay home for a fortnight of playing?

[Andrew B. Carlson]

I'll trade you my already opened up KM-1000 straight up for your Gil. I can settle for the tone. ;)

[Mandoplumb]

I've never known one to get worse, a good mandolin seems to get better, a not so good mandolin most of the time seems to improve also but it had further to go to start with. I know different people want different sound, but what I'm talking about is balance, sustain, that open sound, not so tight. The tone really matures not change. That's why I think you can buy one with a pretty good idea of what it will progress to. Some do not that's why I prefer to buy an instrument used that has been played.

[re simmers]

I would sell it. Gil's are in demand. I would think it would sell. I am not nearly as knowledgeable as others posters, but I can't imagine that set up and strings will make $18,000 difference. That's assuming it doesn't satisfy you as much as your much cheaper mandolin.
If you really like a deeper, bigger, bassier mandolin sound, I saw a Buckeye for sale on the web. I think it is at Carter's. It's a 2005. Mine is 2010 and meets that description. Mine was like that from the day I bought it and it got better.
I guess you have to also consider whether or not you are willing to wait a few more years to see if the Gil gets $18,000 better.
I have heard quite a few Gil's. Never heard one that I would describe as "lacking any bass/deep sound."

[Don Grieser]

If you're not wild about it right out of the case, send it back.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

I have more to say on this later when I have time, but depending on the year/era built Gils can sound very different. He's not making mandolins that sound like Ronnie's anymore.

Shaun, you didn't say that, but AFAYK, is there any evidence that Steve's mandos sound generally brighter these days, more balanced, possibly more loarish?

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Caleb - ".....it only makes sense that those characteristics will be enhanced over time, simply out of repetition if nothing else." I tend to agree with you on that point. However - the downside of that would be that those particular characteristics will be prominent to the detriment of others. A really good instrument,at it's best,should be capable of emphasising each & every note/tone that the player requires. It shouldn't have 'prominent' characteristics,it should have an even response over all IMHO. If i were the OP,i'd put a really good set of strings on it,set the mandolin up correctly re.bridge position,maybe set the action just a tad higher,& play the dickens out of it for a couple of weeks to get it to settle down. I'd also try out a few different pick types. My own recent experience with a Dunlop Primetone pick / J74 strings,has made me realise what an incredible difference the ''right'' pick can make. When i used J74's in the past,i'd used a Wegen Bluegrass pick. Using J74's 'now' with the PT pick,they're a totally different animal,very,very nearly as good as the DR strings i've been using. With the Wegen pick,they sounded soft & unfocused - so,the 'right pick' / string combo.should work out on a Gil. If it doesn't, then it's downhill all the way for the rest of us !,:grin:
Ivan;)

[Denman John]

Here's a nice jam on a couple of Gilchrists (I think). To my ears, they sound different, but they sound pretty good to me :disbelief:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=RDw9yz9pJvb2Q&v=vDE-Kzc6Ezg

[DataNick]

Thanks for that video post John!

I like the first Gil (mando player on the left) better; but it could be due to playing style, pick choice, strings, set-up, etc. ad-nauseum...

But if I had purchased a Gil and when I played it, if it sounded like the one on the left , even for that price I'be be fairly content. If it sounded like the one on the right I'd be looking to move it...

[dang]

I like the first Gil (mando player on the left) better; but it could be due to playing style, pick choice, strings, set-up, etc. ad-nauseum...

But if I had purchased a Gil and when I played it, if it sounded like the one on the left , even for that price I'be be fairly content. If it sounded like the one on the right I'd be looking to move it...

Uh.... Andy Leftwich playing on the left and some guy who is not Andy Leftwich on the right. Not exactly a fair comparison. I was blown away when I found a youtube video of Andy playing Big Mon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERHZYuFN1yM) (I didn't embed since it isn't a Gilchrist). Andy can pick, and I am sure he could make almost any mandolin sound better.

[AlanN]

The 'mando player on the left' is Andy Leftwich. Pretty certain if he picked the other mandolin, you'd be singing praises of that one.

[barry]

I believe the other player is Jason Bailey. I think I have played that mandolin. If it's the one I'm thinking of, the neck has been broken and repaired. It's a good instrument and he is a fine player. Sounds like he is using a thinner pick.

[DataNick]

Yes,

I get it that the picker on the left is Andy, that's why I did clarify my preference with the following:


...I like the first Gil (mando player on the left) better; but it could be due to playing style, pick choice, strings, set-up, etc. ad-nauseum...

Did anyone not read this? The objection that the player (Andy) makes the difference was covered in my statement...but I wouldn't mind hearing Andy pick that other Gil that had the repaired neck to compare the differences...

[pops1]

I have a Brentrup that had not been played much when i got it. It took a long time for the G string to open up and resonate, it changed many times over a couple years of playing it lots. I also refit the bridge several times as it seemed the top was settling in and i didn't think if fit as well as it did, each time it got better to the point i am thinking of selling all my other mandolins as it is all i play. Play it hard and play a lot it will change.

[Mark Seale]

Shaun, you didn't say that, but AFAYK, is there any evidence that Steve's mandos sound generally brighter these days, more balanced, possibly more loarish?

Not Shaun, but the answer is yes to more Loarish. I wouldn't say they are brighter, I would say they have more clarity and articulation. Steve is building for a mid-range punch that will cut across a group. He also believes that the mid-range has to be there as new and the bottom and the top get played in. After he finished the Carmel order list, he was free to build more to his spec which has been a pursuit to the sound of instruments like Grisman's '22 Loar, Crusher. The few newer Gils I've played, I would call tight out of the box, but they bloom with play. I put heavier A and E strings on mine and it was like adding a power booster. It still needs more picking, but that's the fun part.

[DataNick]

...I put heavier A and E strings on mine and it was like adding a power booster. It still needs more picking, but that's the fun part.

What guages are those Mark?

[Ivan Kelsall]

From pops1 - "I have a Brentrup that had not been played much when i got it. It took a long time for the G string to open up and resonate,...". My Lebeda was 7 years old when i got it 'used',& looking at it's pristine condition & 'no wear' frets,it hadn't been played much at all. It sounded pretty 'boxy' to me when i first played it,but i put new strings on it (J74's) & set it up with the slightly higher action that i prefer & played it a 'lot' for a few weeks.The transformation was little less than remarkable. The mandolin took on the beautiful woody tone that it has now, & the overall balance of tones across all the strings was as good as i'll ever need.
I have no experience at all with Gilchrist mandolins & probably never will have,but,maybe a bit of experimenting with string brands & pick types could work wonders for the OP's Gil. No single brand of string or type/thickness/shape of pick will work for all mandolins & a bit of experimenting could be in order - at least that's the path i'd travel,
Ivan;)

[Demetrius]

Ok so this entire thread is really interesting, there's almost no doubt in my mind that the instrument you have needs to be played into submission. I've given up instruments in the last because when I got them I was expecting this wide open, all the tone I wanted mandolin. I know, it's very hard to swallow when it's not being what you want when you forked over that much money, but when I played those instruments a year or two after the buyer had their way with it I was psychologically messed with. Now here I was playing an instrument I in a sec would've bought back that just two years
before I would complain I'd give away in a sec. My advice is never play an instrument you sold after the fact. It could lead to depression... I'm embedding a video clip of my brother and I having a Mando tasting meet. In this video the 5th mandolin is also a 2006 Gilchrist model 5 that had not been played since 2010 literally up until this very moment last spring. The 6th mandolin we tested was a 2000 Dudenbostel that had been played hard for 3 years then pretty much not touched since then till around 2014 but only for a couple months, only to be set back in the case again and not played again until a week before this Mando tasting. If you put headphones on you can sorta hear the sound struggling a little to make its way out both of these two instruments. In fact the Brentrup Stealth was in the same boat, it had been built a few years ago and had never seriously been played and it too felt very green.
The Dude is mine so I've played it almost constantly since this video and I can't really even describe the difference. The Brentrup is owned by my brother and it's the same situation with his. I can't believe the change with his mandolin in a short amount of time with consistent use. I don't own the Gilchrist so sadly this instrument still remains in its case unused and green sounding, but someday someone's gonna buy it and think what your thinking. Hopefully they will give it a year of constant play to really evaluate the sonic differences that can take place in that amount of time. I encourage you to give the fella some real love and I really feel it'll start responding in a way that's gonna have you surprised in time. To tell you the truth all the instruments in this Mando tasting were pretty green at this point. Other than the Collings Mt2, none of these mandos were new. Well anyhow enjoy the video and hopefully my input here has offered you some insight with my own buyers experience. God bless!


http://youtu.be/qlf3wctqD3k

[Bob Clark]

No single brand of string or type/thickness/shape of pick will work for all mandolins & a bit of experimenting could be in order

I think Ivan is right on the money with this. I would be inclined to live with it for a bit, try different strings and different picks. It would also be a good idea to ask Mr. Gilchrist for suggestions.

This is also why I tend not to be interested in the "I went to store X, played all the mandolins and the inexpensive mandolin y was the best of the bunch" threads. Different strings and picks, not to mention different technique, can totally change the sound of a mandolin.

Good luck!

Bob

[Mark Seale]

What guages are those Mark?

J75 on A and E and 74 on D and G.

[alexzen]

Yes, it is the 2006 Model from Carter's. Since I live in New England I did not get a chance to play it before purchase it. It sounds like it needs the right set of strings and lots of playing. It is very sweet in the middle and highs. I did not try to compare it to my 70ies Monteleone F5 because that produces the most amazing sound. After playing it for 3 hours the other night I began to really appreciate what it does have, which is quite incredible, and am learning how to bring out its unique sound. It is a keeper.

[Russ Jordan]

Officespace---do you remember if the Collings MF5 was varnish or lacquer?

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

Yes, Jason Bailey from Birmingham on the right. He is a good player and a friend of mine. Not really fair to compare anyone to Andy Leftwich. Outside of Thile, no one, or at least very few, have his fluidity and dexterity.

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

I played that 2006 Gil at Carters (Barry was referring to me in his earlier post) and I thought the tone exquisite. And the playability unmatched.

[FLATROCK HILL]

I was blown away when I found a youtube video of Andy playing Big Mon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERHZYuFN1yM) (I didn't embed since it isn't a Gilchrist).

If not a Gilchrist, what is Andy playing in the video?

[Nick Gellie]

Yes, it is the 2006 Model from Carter's. Since I live in New England I did not get a chance to play it before purchase it. It sounds like it needs the right set of strings and lots of playing. It is very sweet in the middle and highs. I did not try to compare it to my 70ies Monteleone F5 because that produces the most amazing sound. After playing it for 3 hours the other night I began to really appreciate what it does have, which is quite incredible, and am learning how to bring out its unique sound. It is a keeper.

Sounds like you are both warming to each other. We are all hoping that it will become a long-term relationship.

[Mandobar]

Joe Walsh remarked at a workshop that he bought his Gil and made a commitment to play it for three years before deciding whether or not to keep it.

[dang]

If not a Gilchrist, what is Andy playing in the video?

Not sure, I can't quite make it out... Maybe a Gilchrist?

[sgarrity]

Not Shaun, but the answer is yes to more Loarish. I wouldn't say they are brighter, I would say they have more clarity and articulation. Steve is building for a mid-range punch that will cut across a group. He also believes that the mid-range has to be there as new and the bottom and the top get played in. After he finished the Carmel order list, he was free to build more to his spec which has been a pursuit to the sound of instruments like Grisman's '22 Loar, Crusher. The few newer Gils I've played, I would call tight out of the box, but they bloom with play. I put heavier A and E strings on mine and it was like adding a power booster. It still needs more picking, but that's the fun part.

What Mark said. Steve's newer stuff leans toward the fundamental end of things with very few overtones. They are very balanced across the strings and they're projection monsters. To me they sound best when played with a heavy hand in an ensemble. He's basically building what he thinks a new Loar sounded like. My ear tends to like his stuff from the early 1990s through the mid-2000s. As a generalization i think they have a little fuller, beefier tone. And of course the x-braxed Engelmann tops are a whole other kind of sound. I think the absolute favorite Gilchrist I've ever had my hands on would have been Charlie Derrington's old F5 Classical model. While not your typical bluegrass mandolin that thing was a beautiful beast in every way.

To the OP, you really do have to play the hell out of them, especially if they've been sleeping for awhile. I used a Tone-Rite (sp?) on mine and it did make a difference. A slight difference but enough of one that I kept it on there quite a bit. Will it turn a dud into a tone monster? No! But it will give you 5-10% more oomph in my very unscientific opinion and anecdotal testing. It's also ok to say that Steve's instruments aren't for everybody and every one Steve has made is not magical. He's a human being working with natural materials. There will be differences in the instruments. While I've not played a Gil that I thought was a dog, I have played a few that I thought were exceedingly average especially when you figure in the price tag. When your'e dropping $20K on an instrument it better make you want to never stop playing it!

[DataNick]

Thank You Shaun for educating the rest of us...as usual spot on comments that teach if you're listening carefully!

Thanks Bro!...not that I'll ever be able to afford a Gil, but my taste in tone is closer to what you describe as your preferences; and now I have a ballpark range of instrument years to look at...in my dream world...LOL!

[NoNickel]

I don't have a Gil, but I do have a new Duff. There is no doubt playing opens up the box; especially since you are dealing with Red Spruce, Sugar Maple and tone bars. I was recently at Monroe Mandolin Camp and listened to Paul Duff and Will Kimble talking about the process. I don't know how anyone can dispute the "opening up" process when the fellows who make them (who have built about 400+ instruments between them and followed their progress) extoll it.

Big strings, a lot of play and, yes, keeping it on a tonerite all the time when you are not playing it will all help. I've got six months playing on my Duff and it has definitely changed in that short time. When I first got it, I was a little disappointed with the lack of bass and the too harsh trebles. Those issues are all gone now. The is much lusher and the trebles lost their harshness. I put .41-.12 strings on it (Curt Mangus) which are just right. I also use heavy picks and pick Compton style.

Also, this is not just my ears getting used to what I got or learning to bring the tone out of the mandolin. I had a very nice and well broken in BRW that I loved the tone of and compared it that from day 1. After about 4 months, the Duff passed the BRW and now is just great. I am looking forward to the next several years of growth.

[fscotte]

Send it to me. I'll open it up for you... But it'll cost you for me to put it back together....

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Shaun Garrity - "...I have played a few that I thought were exceedingly average...". Shaun,you're the first person to say that on here,at least as far as i can remember. You're most likely very correct in what you say. It would be ridiculous to think that even a world renowned luthier such as SG could conjour up astounding instruments all the time!. It's simply not possible IMHO,given the 'variables' in wood density/flexibility/tonal properties etc.,every one will sound different as we know,& some might not really 'make the grade' that Steve's looking for.Having said that,even they might find an owner to whom they sound fantastic.Our individual hearing & preferences are just as variable as the mandolins. When i first got my 'used' Lebeda,you might have thought that you'd get more tune out of the case than the mandolin & at the start,you'd have been right. But a few months of playing worked wonders on it,& since i've discovered what for me,is the perfect string/pick combo.,it's just superb,
Ivan

[Teak]

And here I thought that for higher-priced "name" mandolins the phrase "open up" referred to one's wallet. :whistling:

[almeriastrings]

While I've not played a Gil that I thought was a dog, I have played a few that I thought were exceedingly average especially when you figure in the price tag. When your'e dropping $20K on an instrument it better make you want to never stop playing it!

I had a Loar here for a while (and I'm not talking about an LM700!)... also a Kentucky KM-1500 at the same time.... and you know what? I liked the KM-1500 better. Quite a bit better, actually. It is enough to make you question your own ears (or sanity?), but there you go... price tags (and expectations) do not always align in the way you might expect them to.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Almeria - "...but there you go... price tags (and expectations) do not always align in the way you might expect them to."
I strongly suspect that we all know & understand that point only too well,but when so many folk tell you that a top of the tree mandolin ALWAYS sounds better,how many people put their personal opinions behind them & go for the more expensive instrument with 'the name ' ??. It's a sort of ''The King's new clothes'' for mandolin players - we hear what we've been told to expect to hear ,& not what we actually hear. Most folk on here who've read my posts will know of my fondness for Ellis mandolins. I own one,but i've played 2 others belonging to visitors to the UK at festivals over here, & they were sublime. It would take an awful lot to shake my belief that Tom Ellis' mandolins aren't the best bargain around,& maybe i'll put Michael Heiden in there as well.
I'm very pleased indeed that the OP seems to be discovering just 'what' his Gil.can do at last & hopefully,it'll just get better for him. I still remember the day that after a few months of really hard playing,i took my Lebeda from it's case, & wow ! - it sounded terrific,& with my current string/pick combo.,it sounds far better,
Ivan;)

[kyken]

I had a Loar here for a while (and I'm not talking about an LM700!)... also a Kentucky KM-1500 at the same time.... and you know what? I liked the KM-1500 better. Quite a bit better, actually. It is enough to make you question your own ears (or sanity?), but there you go... price tags (and expectations) do not always align in the way you might expect them to.

I have built quite a few mandolins and have had some experience with "opening up". I'm under the impression that very little opening up will occur after the first hour. Whether it's played or just sitting, it will change sometimes drastically within a few minutes to an hour. As far as opening up over time, not gonna happen. If it's not good from the start, it won't ever be good. I have learned that there's not much you can do to make a poor sounding mandolin sound good and at the same time, there's not much you can do to make a good mandolin sound bad. It's very difficult to take a piece of wood that doesn't "thump" well and expect to get something from it. Can't draw blood from a turnip so to speak. Start with something good, and you'll end up with something good, maybe great. Of course there are a lot of little small things that can be done to improve something, but the differences will be very minor and mostly "in your head". There's a fine line between a good and a not so good one. Without a good "bottom end", might as well forget it. Of course the mids and highs are important too, but shrill only has no place for me. This is only my thoughts from many years of trial and error. Wood is very important, type and thump.

[Nick Gellie]

Ken, the folks at Northfield mandolins are in the same camp as you - they believe the tone and volume has got to be there in the first place. They reckon you can't beat a mandolin into submission. BTW the model M they are making now has small f holes like yours.

[Tom C]

I have old Grateful Dead recordings from the '60s that seem to open up the longer I listen to them too :).

Basically I believe an instrument opens up but, I also believe one's ears adjust. When I pickup an instrument, after 10 minutes or so, I'm either impressed or not impressed. I've played 2 high end builder's side by side where you think the one you just put down sounded better no matter which one it was. I can't anticipate how something will sound down the road or how far down the road.

[OldGus]

X braced mandolins tend to sound more open on day one but will tend to open up less over time. Hide glue and varnish finish curing can take years to settle which might also make for a noticeable difference. Like a Baseball glove the wood grain has a certain stretch and elasticity that can be manipulated during a build but will tend to happen more with time and playing. It should be noted that a lot of Silverangels and Gilchrists are X braced. I think there would probably be more flex to a top with tone bars and probably more stability with X bracing, given similar arching, graduations and material. So I think the tone bar top will tend to open up more over time...Also the more I hear about these 'dud' Loars the more I think they might just need a little work or a new fret board to sound great.

[Paul Statman]

I would put a ToneRite on it for a couple or three days, and leave it on at any time it is not being played.
*This has worked for me on three mandolins and a guitar so far. Bon chance!

[ash89]

I would put a ToneRite on it for a couple or three days, and leave it on at any time it is not being played.
*This has worked for me on three mandolins and a guitar so far. Bon chance!

or at least leave it out of it's case and secured say to a wall hanger,
to allow it to soak up as much sound as possible..
string heavy classical (like cello) music always works well!

[Rheatown]

Things I would check:

Humidity at 50%. If it was stored in high humidity it may take a while to dry out with a dehumidifier.

Tune it: A strobe tuner or iPhone Pano tuner is good. Snarks don't cut it for accuracy.

New strings.

Don't laugh: Fuzz under the tail piece if you have a pet.

I recently got a Santa Cruz Tony Rice Pro guitar that I have been drying out at 47% humidity. After playing my D-28 the SC sounds dull at first, but after 90 minutes the SC makes the Martin sound like a dime store toy guitar.

Most important thing is probably the humidity.

Finally a setup by a knowledgeable person is important. I do mine every couple of years at the Gibson factory with Danny Roberts.

[pops1]

It took my Brentrup more than a year, way more, to open up the bottom. I worked hard on the G string to get it sounding like something and not quiet. It had not been played for some time before I got it. Seems like now the G is quite nice and the E has warmed up significantly. I would put GHS 270's on it and play it as much as you can every day. Wow to have to play a Gil every day. :):):)