Very Old Mandolin-Need Help With Identification

[fiddler93]

Hello all!

I am new to mandolin cafe.The other day I was at the church in my town and I asked the padre if he had any old instruments that werent being used and he could give away.So he showed me this mandolin and I since I couldnt afford a new one some time back I decided to take it.Now he told me that the instrument was quite old and was actually used in the choir.He told me it was Italian made,from Roma I think.So I am posting a few pictures of the stringed instrument and I hope someone might recognise it.I am from Karlskrona,a small town in the southern province of Sweden.

[allenhopkins]

My initial guess would be German manufacture, which I'm basing on the slotted headstock and the design of the pickguard. Also, I haven't seen many Italian instruments with blond maple ribs in the bowl, but I'm far from an expert.

[Paul Hostetter]

The padre was right. It's distinctly Roman. No label?

[fiddler93]

I was looking for labels or manufacturer insignia everywhere on the mandolin,but couldnt find any.

[Bob A]

The neck appears to have the Roman V-shaped cross-section, as well as being narrow in the Roman style. The pickguard is reminiscent of German/Central European decoration.

Try using a dental type mirror to look for any markings hidden within the bowl.

[brunello97]

My initial guess would be German manufacture, which I'm basing on the slotted headstock and the design of the pickguard. Also, I haven't seen many Italian instruments with blond maple ribs in the bowl, but I'm far from an expert.

Plenty of Embergher mandolins used maple for the bowls, Allen. I tend to associate maple bowls and Roman style mandolins, though I know that is an oversimplification. Our friend, Jim Garber, has a rosewood bowl Embergher which is quite beautiful, some of the delight I take in it no doubt comes from it being somewhat, relatively less common. Like seeing an attractive redhead.

This is certainly mas o menos Roman in style as Pablo and Padre have identified. Whether it was made in Rome is another question-as Bob has pointed out with the Markneukirchen-isch pickguard. The lack of identification makes me lean further towards a non-Roman maker. Those guys tended to be pretty proud of their work and labeled accordingly.

Of course that is a coarse supposition and should be taken accordingly.

It's origin may not inherently compromise it's quality. I had a German made-Roman style mandolin for awhile and it was quite a nice instrument. Very cleanly made with good tonal response and projection. The V neck took some adjusting to and since I have large hands the very narrow Roman nut width made it a challenge for me. I was just starting to get command of it when someone offered me a good price for it and with a bit of reluctance I sold it. I'd be up for another one some day--by a proper Roman maker. ;)

Mick

[fiddler93]

Well looks like its identity will be a mystery for now.Anyway I am still open for any suggestions you people have.Although I have scoured the web and found out that it looks very similar to an Embergher mandolin from 1932.But then again being made in 1932,it wouldnt have survived this well.I hear Embergher made student mandolins on special order and maybe that's the reason why there's no label?Could this be the reason?I doubt it very much though.

[Martin Jonas]

It's definitely not an Embergher. The bowl shape, neck profile, scratchplate and other detailing are completely wrong for that -- whatever similarity is fairly superficial. Yes, it has a V-neck, but nothing like as pronounced as Emberghers, and there is no recurve at the neck joint and as far as I can see no radiussed and slanted fretboard.

I agree it's most likely German, in a hybrid style combining Neapolitan and Roman elements. Most German trade mandolins were unlabelled and sold through music stores under their own names, so the absence of a maker's name or date is not surprising. 1920s or 1930s, most likely. There are many mandolins that are a century or more old in condition like yours or better, so the condition doesn't contradict this.

Enjoy it for what it is: some of these pre-war German mandolins are pretty good and the fact that yours has an extended fretboard with actual frets (rather than a non-functional one as the cheaper ones usually have) indicates that it was reasonable quality to start with. Make sure you ask somebody who knowns mandolins to check the setup and only use very light strings.

Martin

[vic-victor]

Yes, looks very German. The bulk of German mandolins were made in the town of Markneukirchen in Saxony. It is unlikely you will be able to match it to a particular maker unless there is a seal on the inner side of the top. Try slotting your mobile in and make several photos, that may reveal something (but most probably there's nothing). I agree with Maritin as for dating the instrument. Pre-WWII.

[fiddler93]

It's definitely not an Embergher. The bowl shape, neck profile, scratchplate and other detailing are completely wrong for that -- whatever similarity is fairly superficial. Yes, it has a V-neck, but nothing like as pronounced as Emberghers, and there is no recurve at the neck joint and as far as I can see no radiussed and slanted fretboard.

I agree it's most likely German, in a hybrid style combining Neapolitan and Roman elements. Most German trade mandolins were unlabelled and sold through music stores under their own names, so the absence of a maker's name or date is not surprising. 1920s or 1930s, most likely. There are many mandolins that are a century or more old in condition like yours or better, so the condition doesn't contradict this.

Enjoy it for what it is: some of these pre-war German mandolins are pretty good and the fact that yours has an extended fretboard with actual frets (rather than a non-functional one as the cheaper ones usually have) indicates that it was reasonable quality to start with. Make sure you ask somebody who knowns mandolins to check the setup and only use very light strings.

Martin

Thanks for that detailed explanation about the mandolin.I must agree that its likeliness to the Embergher mandolin is only superficial.But when examined closel it has many irregularities.And yea this might be a pre-war mandolin, although I dont know anything about mandolin,that was the reason for my assumption that it might not have been from the 20s or the 30s.I tried to play a tune on it yesterday and found that its quite hard because it has no resemblance to today's mandolins like the fixed bridge and its very size.I must ask what you think of the cosmetic condition of the instrument.Does it look like it needs to be refurbished head to tail?I am sure of the fact that I must get the strings replaced because when I tried tuning,it had a very different sound that is usually accepted.So I had to tighten the strings more than necessary to get the tuning done properly,but as I was playing it,the strings were very hard to press down on the fret board.

[allenhopkins]

Not sure what you mean by the "fixed bridge and very size." Very few mandolins have fixed bridges; most have floating bridges, held to the top only by string tension. Has the bridge of this instrument been glued to the top? If so, that would be unusual.

What you're experiencing in terms of strings "hard to press down to the fretboard" is what is generally termed "high action." First, you should make sure that you obtain extra-light strings when you replace the existing ones; bowl-back instruments should not be strung with the gauges usually found on other types of mandolin. Extra-light strings are as a rule easier to fret than medium gauge -- less tension.

Secondly, on an instrument as old as this one apparently is, and also apparently stored with string tension on the neck and top, it's quite possible that the neck joint has shifted, allowing the neck to pull forward slightly, or that the top has sunk slightly. I can't tell from the pictures you provide if either of these have occurred. The mandolin would then need to be set up to compensate for the changes, and the most direct adjustment would be to sand some wood from the feet of the bridge, lowering it.

This type of adjustment on a bowl-back, which lacks an adjustable bridge, should be undertaken by someone experienced in working with instruments. First thing I'd recommend is to restring it with extra-light strings -- making sure the bridge is located for proper intonation -- and then to ascertain if this solves the "high action" problem. If not, suggest a trip to an instrument repair shop.

[Jeff Mando]

Like seeing an attractive redhead.

Scotland and Ireland just said "ouch"!

[fiddler93]

Not sure what you mean by the "fixed bridge and very size." Very few mandolins have fixed bridges; most have floating bridges, held to the top only by string tension. Has the bridge of this instrument been glued to the top? If so, that would be unusual.

What you're experiencing in terms of strings "hard to press down to the fretboard" is what is generally termed "high action." First, you should make sure that you obtain extra-light strings when you replace the existing ones; bowl-back instruments should not be strung with the gauges usually found on other types of mandolin. Extra-light strings are as a rule easier to fret than medium gauge -- less tension.

Secondly, on an instrument as old as this one apparently is, and also apparently stored with string tension on the neck and top, it's quite possible that the neck joint has shifted, allowing the neck to pull forward slightly, or that the top has sunk slightly. I can't tell from the pictures you provide if either of these have occurred. The mandolin would then need to be set up to compensate for the changes, and the most direct adjustment would be to sand some wood from the feet of the bridge, lowering it.

This type of adjustment on a bowl-back, which lacks an adjustable bridge, should be undertaken by someone experienced in working with instruments. First thing I'd recommend is to restring it with extra-light strings -- making sure the bridge is located for proper intonation -- and then to ascertain if this solves the "high action" problem. If not, suggest a trip to an instrument repair shop.

Yes the bridge is glued and immovable.And I have seen many latest mandolins,maybe not bowlbacks,but my instrument somehow seems to be a little smaller in length.Now I know nothing of mandolins,maybe because its a very old design?

[Bob A]

Bowlbacks have a shorter scale length than the Gibson-style instruments; 13" as against ~14" for the Gibs.

The bridge should not be glued in place; someone has been practicing reptile luthiery. Find someone who is competent to remove the bridge and properly set up the instrument for playing. Provide them with a set of proper strings, like GHS Classicals, to do the setup.

It may or may not turn out to be a fine-sounding instrument, but it appears to be worth attempting to getting it right. If the neck joint is failing, that would probably be a deal-breaker, but who knows? See what the luthier has to say.

[fiddler93]

Bowlbacks have a shorter scale length than the Gibson-style instruments; 13" as against ~14" for the Gibs.

The bridge should not be glued in place; someone has been practicing reptile luthiery. Find someone who is competent to remove the bridge and properly set up the instrument for playing. Provide them with a set of proper strings, like GHS Classicals, to do the setup.

It may or may not turn out to be a fine-sounding instrument, but it appears to be worth attempting to getting it right. If the neck joint is failing, that would probably be a deal-breaker, but who knows? See what the luthier has to say.

I played the instrument twice and it sounds very good actually even though it requires high action and as allen pointed out it needs to be replaced with some lighter strings specific to bowlbacks.

[brunello97]

Scotland and Ireland just said "ouch"!

I think you're interpreting that all wrong, amigo......:confused:

Mick

[Jeff Mando]

I think you're interpreting that all wrong, amigo......:confused:

Mick

Sorry, I think I get it now, kinda of like a rare gem.

[brunello97]

Sorry, I think I get it now, kinda of like a rare gem.

Check. I'm from a family of green-eyed red haired Scots-Irish. :)

Me: blue eyes, blonde hair, the "Milkman's Son" as my Daddy called me.

Mick