The Gibson F-4 mandolin serial 50016

[intensesinger]

I am also looking for and information about this instrument that may be helpful.
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[Timbofood]

Check the mandolin archives, loads of information there.

[MikeEdgerton]

50018 (another F4 mandolin) shipped in 1918.

www.mandolinarchive.com

[Timbofood]

Thanks for adding the link, Mike!
How did you happen across these two little "pearls"?

[intensesinger]

I purchased an estate, these are just the beginning. Maybe you could help me with this alvarez. Im pretty sure its an a800 from 77, but the color is unique and the combination of double a, raised scroll, fancy inlay, and I swear this thing looks like its made of walnut.
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[lenf12]

The bridge and pick guard are not original to the F-4. They are much more recent (and cheap) replacements and detract somewhat from the value of the mandolin. Re: the Alvarez, you are correct about the model and likely year of manufacture. These were relatively inexpensive imports compared to a USA Gibson and meant to serve the entry level player's market. Yours has a lot of fancy inlay work but it is really just lipstick on a pig imho. Does it sound good? Do you know? I don't think it's walnut but rather plain (unfigured) maple. I could be wrong about that and a quick Google search would answer that question for you. Since you have both mandolins in your possession, compare the body scolls of each. The F-4 is much more graceful and closed compared to the Alvarez. Same is true of the peg head scroll. Body binding wasn't the strong suit of Japanese manufacturers in the 70's either.

If you can get a period correct bridge and pick guard for the F-4, resale value would be about $4K to $5K depending on condition. The Alvarez should fetch a few hundred $$$ if there are no issues with it.

I can hardly wait to see what else you purchased in the estate sale.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[houseworker]

The F-4 has been refinished at some point (possibly at the factory). This significantly hits the value.

The tuners look to be replacements too.

[intensesinger]

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[houseworker]

Well, the tuners are original. The bushings have definitely been replaced and I'm not sure about the buttons. Assuming that you're planning to sell this, it's going to be a player's instrument rather than a collectible. The refinish means that there's little point in looking for original replacement parts in terms of enhancing the value.

It looks pretty sound. Check the brace just below the soundhole is still firmly glued in, then fit a new set of J73s or J74s, and she should be ready to play. If you lwere to auction her on eBay, you could reasonably expect to achieve $2K. If you have the original case (and it's sound) that will add a bit to the value.

[pfox14]

What is that metal button screwed to the back of the tuners?

[houseworker]

What is that metal button screwed to the back of the tuners?

I'm guessing that it's intended as a strap button. It should certainly be removed.

[MikeEdgerton]

It's being used as a strap button, it looks like a roller from a shower door.

[mrmando]

Looks like there's a crack hiding under the pickguard on the F4. Too bad about the refinish. There actually are some 1921 F4s with original finish in that color, but this serial number doesn't fit that group.

It sure looks to me like the 22nd fret is wider than the other frets. It might have been replaced with wire of the wrong gauge.

[lenf12]

The additional photos are quite helpful. I missed the refinish thinking Cremona F-4 from the early 20's. Nice player's F-4.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[mrmando]

(duplicate)

[mrmando]

The F4's fretboard isn't original, come to think of it. A 1919 F4 should not have fret markers on the first and third frets. And actually all the frets look like "jumbo" frets, wider than the originals. But some of them appear to be wider than others, which is weird.

So it's been monkeyed with extensively, but given good playable condition the earlier $2K estimate is entirely reasonable. The refinish appears at least to be a decent job.

[Tobin]

Great breakdown and analysis by everyone. I agree, this looks like it has been extensively altered over the years. The refinish looks like one of the typical Gibson refinishes before they went to the horrid sunbursts of later years. Likely a 1920s refinish? Looks too good to be a 1930s or later job.

Yeah, the frets are way too wide for a 1918 F4, and the fret markers denote a replaced fingerboard. Bridge and pick guard are definitely not right for a 1918. Is that pick guard actually screwed into the top, next to the neck? The horror! And the strap button on the back of the neck looks like it came off a guitar. At least they had the sense to install it through an existing tuning machine plate screw hole, although it looks like they had to oversize the hole to use that screw. It could be easily removed and the hole filled and re-drilled for a proper size screw.

The tuners may be original, and they would certainly go with a later 1918 F4. The earlier 1918 F4s would have had the inlaid tuner buttons (mine does, anyway, with a serial number about 4000 ahead of this one). But I suppose it's also possible that these tuners were replaced in the 1920s if/when it was reworked at the Gibson factory.

The condition looks great, although I agree there appears to be a crack under the pick guard that ought to be checked out. All in all, this is definitely a "player" grade F4, but could very well be a great sounding mandolin. Looks like it was at least taken care of by someone who wanted to keep it running, even if they didn't care about keeping it all original.

[lenf12]

Good eyes mrmando. I missed that 1st fret marker several times looking at it but not really seeing it.....:(

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[mrmando]

intensesinger, can you find the factory order number? It's stamped inside the mandolin, usually on the neck block. That's the best way to nail down the manufacture date.

[Timbofood]

Birthday is tomorrow, just sayin'. :grin:

[BBarton]

The tuner buttons are similar to some I've seen on Gibs from around 1920, but not the typical ivoroid buttons of latter 1918 -- I think!! Thus, hard to tell if original or not. Those with more knowledge than me about these things should know!

[Eddie Sheehy]

That estimate of $2k is way too low. You can't get an F4 with serious issues for $2K. Look at that basket-case F2 that was parted out recently... Look at what a similar old F4 goes for and look at about 60% of that. I don't quite get the comment of get a period correct bridge and pickguard and it'll be worth $4K to $5K ... An original pickguard can be picked up for $130 and either a Siminoff replacement one-piece bridge or good adjustable bridge will be under $50.
As is, I think it's worth close to 3K.

[Jeff Mando]

I agree with Eddie, not 100 percent original, but still a pretty nice looking player. I never see 'em for $2K that nice. If there is a parallel with vintage Martin guitar players/pricing -- it seem to me there is much more acceptance of repairs/mods/neck sets/replaced bridges, refins, etc., -- in that world, guitars with those issues still bring big money. We seem to be more critical here of what will fly. Just an observation and of course, everybody wants 100 percent originality, but....

I've offered this comparison before on this forum, since my father was a car collector, rest his soul. When I was younger, even into the 1970's, a vintage car HAD TO HAVE the original finish -- no if's, and's or butt's -- to be a collector car. OTHERWISE, a repainted car was merely a cool "driver". Obviously, those standards have been lifted in the old car field. (probably due to old car fans living in the "rust belt") We haven't gotten to that point with mandolins, yet. But, something to think about.

[Timbofood]

So is there a tracking number for this or the L&H I should have to see why neither of these arrived for my birthday? I'll give it a couple of days, just in case.:grin: :grin:

[Jeff Mando]

Happy Birthday, Timbo!

[Timbofood]

Thanks Jeff! Sorry to be late in looking at this, been a little busy with a new grill deck design! I will post pictures when I get it finalized! Using old cypress barrel lumber that came out of the old "Stroh's" brewery courtesy of a cabinetmaker buddy, he's also my banjo player so, frequently is the recipient of grill delights.

[Charles Johnson]

My take is original tuners but replaced buttons. Amber translucent buttons were used on Gibsons (mandos, guitars, banjos) in the late 1930's but I have not seen them earlier than that.