Lyon & Healy A style "Professional" No. 754

[intensesinger]

I would like any information you can share, the year made would also be helpful. Thank you137452137453137454137455

[OldGus]

It's one of the best Lyon and Healy(Washburn) mandolins of old, A later example long scale asymmetrical style A with the scroll headstock, wider arched fretboard and leg rest. It has the original pickguard and tailpiece. Great mandolins cited for clarity and tone, it looks to be in great condition. It's made of Maple, Spruce and Ebony. Pickguard is Vulcanized Rubber, Congrats!

[intensesinger]

Thank you so much for the info "OldGus"

[Timbofood]

I have a friend with one of those, it is pretty high in the "cool" category in my opinion! Enjoy it!

[MikeEdgerton]

Does the little pop out leg brace still work?

[intensesinger]

I don't see any way to extend it.

[Timbofood]

It's probably jammed, can you work a length of dental floss in around it and pull "firmly but, gently?"

[CWRoyds]

I love that model. I have a strong desire to own one. I love the smooth pick guard and the scroll headstock. They are so unique. Luckily the are actually attainable for a reasonable price, unlike the other objects of my desire, like an F5 Dude or Loar.

[mrmando]

whoops, duplicate

[mrmando]

IIRC the pull-out rest originally had a rubber plug on the end that would have prevented it from recessing all the way into the instrument. With the right tool it might be possible to pop it out by reaching through the soundhole.

This is post-1921 and, contrary to OldGus' assertion, it is a "classical" or "short-scale" instrument; the scale length is 13 inches rather than the earlier scale length of 13 7/8. It's probably from 1922, as are most of the ones with pull-out rests. Also, the pickguard is vulcanized fiber (made from the same stuff as kraft paper, believe it or not, and also used for bowling balls in that era), not rubber.

I haven't seen that label before; this is the second Style A with an unusual label that someone has posted in the past couple of weeks.

Not all Style A mandolins got the "Professional" designation, but I'm not entirely sure how the "Professional" ones differ from the rest. This has the 24-fret board whereas some other Style A's have 27 frets.

keef, do you have a handle on what distinguishes the "Professional" line from the ordinary Style A's?

[Bill Clements]

I'm looking at Hubert Pleijsier's book, and it mentions on p.111 that this label was printed around 1917.

"white/beige oval label w text "Lyon&Healy / Chicago / Makers of highest grade musical instruments / Sold under our unlimited guarantee / No. ___ Style ___ " number and style designations are handwritten on label.
Scroll and toploaded tuner patented by John Brandt. Styles A (renamed 5283 after around 1925) B and c (renamed Aristocrat around 1925) came with a 24-fret extension fingerboard. Style A was also available with a 27-fret fingerboard. The pullout metal knee rest was available on Styles A and B from 1917 until mid-20's designed by Walter Kirk. Around 1922-23 Styles A-C received a Washburn label. There was actually a Style D made between 1922-25, but I've never seen one. Odd, but I can find no reference to a "Style A Professional" in Pleijsier's book.
You have a beautiful example of American luthiery. Believe it or not, they sold for around $100 dollars back in 1921--which equals around $1200 today. A bargain by any measure.

[mrmando]

I'm looking at Hubert Pleijsier's book, and it mentions on p.111 that this label was printed around 1917.

Ah! Good call. In that case I have seen that label before; it's depicted on p. 110 of the book. I stand corrected.

Although Bill correctly points out that this label was in use as early as 1917, that doesn't change the date estimate on the instrument. The asymmetrical body and 13-inch scale were both introduced in 1921, so this mandolin wouldn't have been produced before then.

intensesinger — what's the story behind this one?

[DavidKOS]

Lovely mandolins, I really like those L and H's. I'd rather have one of them than most Gibsons.

[intensesinger]

These were purchased as part of an estate, along with some violins from the 1600s.

[brunello97]

Lovely mandolins, I really like those L and H's. I'd rather have one of them than most Gibsons.

"most Gibsons" ;)

I've only played short scale L+H carved tops. Would love to be able to sit at length and comp with a longer scale version.

Has anyone played both models (long and short) enough to provide some comparatives?

Mick

[brunello97]

These were purchased as part of an estate, along with some violins from the 1600s.

Any chance of you posting more photos?

thanks,

Mick

[DavidKOS]

"most Gibsons" ;)

I've only played short scale L+H carved tops. Would love to be able to sit at length and comp with a longer scale version.

Has anyone played both models (long and short) enough to provide some comparatives?

Mick

I've played both but not side-by-side so I didn't get to compare directly. The short scale felt fine to me, but I also play short scale bowlbacks.

[brunello97]

I've played both but not side-by-side so I didn't get to compare directly. The short scale felt fine to me, but I also play short scale bowlbacks.

Sure. But I'm looking for more than just feel, to ask if there are sonic differences as well. I switch between long and short-scale mandolins daily and enjoy both. It is fun to play the same music on each and grow to learn which is preferable for what. Some days my opinions flip back and forth. I'm not much into bluegrass so the longer scale is not a default definition for me. Though I have been playing Jerusalem Ridge on a <15" scale bowldola a lot recently. The low end runs sound great.

Are there other makers (other than custom jobs) that made long scale and short scale versions of the same models?

Mick

[OldGus]

I knew that the body joining the neck at the 9 1/2th fret would make it a short scale but I guess I saw it wrong. It's been a grueling week at work. Sorry about the misinformation on that one...

[intensesinger]

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[mrmando]

Well, it's a very desirable instrument for classical mandolinists in particular. If you're going to try selling it, I hope you'll have a go at the Classifieds section here at Mandolin Cafe. If you're going to be anywhere near Austin, Texas, in October, you could peddle it at the annual convention of the Classical Mandolin Society of America, which would be sort of like ground zero for Lyon & Healy fans.

[mrmando]

I knew that the body joining the neck at the 9 1/2th fret would make it a short scale but I guess I saw it wrong. It's been a grueling week at work. Sorry about the misinformation on that one...
No worries. If I'm not mistaken, there are in fact a few asymmetrical Style A mandolins with the long scale, but most of them are the 13-inch variety.

[brunello97]

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Thanks! I love the look of these. Every bit as weird and fetishized as an Embergher or a Gibson F4. These L+H are my favorite (looks wise) of the three.

I know I'm being lazy here, but my copy of Keef's book is up in AA. Were there any asymmetrical two-point Style Bs?

Mick

[mrmando]

No, Keef says the Style B remained symmetrical throughout the run, as did the Style A mandolas and mandocellos.

[Knox Al]

A beautiful instrument and excellent skill in taking those wonderful, detailed photographs.

[Knox Al]

On a side note, are the tailpiece covers interchangeable for the A, B and C models?

Al

[mrmando]

They all had the same tailpiece for most of the production run. However, the 1923 catalog shows the Style C with a Waverly cloud tailpiece.

[intensesinger]

What do you guys think would be a fair price to sell the Lyon & Healy for?

[Timbofood]

Can't say anything about a fair price but, my birthday is Wednesday! :grin:
I try to be optimistic.;)

[JeffD]

It depends a lot on the condition obviously, and any now irrelevant repairs. I have never seen one lower than $4K, and that was not perfect condition, and I have seen them for much more.

I saved for one for a whole bunch of years and when it became available on the classifieds I jumped on it. Turns out I was the very first caller - the fellow had just finished posting the ad. I really cherish the mandolin, and just love seeing my own hands holding it - goofy as that sounds. I have it strung with Thomastics and the sound is wonderful. Much more to the bowlback sound than anything else.

Great lovely pictures BTW.

Here is mine. (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/album.php?albumid=10&attachmentid=79165)

[hank]

I've always wondered if the response or sustain are noticeably different between A and B models. The A models massive decorative headstock must have at least twice the mass of the B models headstock. Anyone own both that can comment about dynamic differences from the design change?

[intensesinger]

Edited by Moderator: Please review the posting guidelines (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/faq.php). We don't use the forums to promote sales.

[DavidKOS]

I have it strung with Thomastics and the sound is wonderful. Much more to the bowlback sound than anything else.



Hence why I like those models - it's a shame they aren't mass-produced like Gibson knock-offs are.

[mrmando]

Hey intensesinger, if you're ready to sell, pop it in the Classifieds here.

[keef]

keef, do you have a handle on what distinguishes the "Professional" line from the ordinary Style A's?

No Martin. I never could figure that out. I think I read somewhere that the 'Professionals' indicated 27-fret Style A's, but the ones I have seen all have 24 frets and do not seem to differ in any way (on small, bad pictures of yore) from the standard Style A's.

(By the way - I don't think I have a picture of a 27-fret Style A. They all seem to have 26 frets - one of the last frets are either missing on these as you can see a gap between frets, or was this actually intended?)

[brunello97]

Hence why I like those models - it's a shame they aren't mass-produced like Gibson knock-offs are.

While not 'mass production' there is one builder who frequents here who rather modestly suggests that his version of the L+H A design is an improvement on the original.

I've only played one of his instruments so I am in no position to judge. In that instance, the sound quality was not up to the level of the very impressive woodworking.

It's a treasure and a pity that these instruments arrived when they did--while the initial mandolin craze was beginning its eclipse as was L+H commitment to instrument making. As appreciation for their style and sound continues to grow once more (as it clearly has over the last 10 years here) I think we'll see more and more examples being made.

Who knows there may be a "The L+H A" line in the works in some Chinese factory.

Mick

[Timbofood]

Oh Mick, you positive thinking fellow!
I have a friend who has a couple of L+H mandolins and they are soooo cool, simply put, so NON Gibson. I love to have one. He has some pretty cool old Martin mandolins too, long time collector with the knowledge to pick wisely, or choose wisely depending on how one looks at it.
I think the Pac rim reproductions are so far down the road, I will probably be dead before they are released. But, the threads they will generate will be long and varied!

[Jim Garber]

This is post-1921 and, contrary to OldGus' assertion, it is a "classical" or "short-scale" instrument; the scale length is 13 inches rather than the earlier scale length of 13 7/8. It's probably from 1922, as are most of the ones with pull-out rests. Also, the pickguard is vulcanized fiber (made from the same stuff as kraft paper, believe it or not, and also used for bowling balls in that era), not rubber.

I am late to the game on this thread. Thanks, Martin, for catching those typical anomalies, esp the one about "vulcanized rubber". Even Stan Jay had that wrong a few years ago in his listings, until I corrected him.

I have one each of L&H As -- one long scale and one short (later). I had the long scale playable for some time and it was a wonderful instrument. I never stung it with Thomastiks tho usually used J-74s and it prob sounded more like a Gibson. Unfortunately my long-scale one is no longer playable so a comparison is not happening.

I always disliked Thomastiks on most mandolins but finally relented and strung the short-scale Washburn I have (no extender) with them and that is the right string. I don't know if I would call it bowlback tone tho. I think the L&H is more mellow than the bowlbacks I play; perhaps more like a hybrid sound of Gibson and bowlback, somewhere in between.

As far as modern copies, there was an Asian-made Washburn in the 1980s and an Eastman copy of the mandola IIRC. There are some modern copies but those are copies for the loom rather than the sound, as far as I can tell. I believe tho that Peter Coombe (http://petercoombe.com/ClassicaL.html) has built a few copies that try to reproduce the tone of these as well.

[mrmando]

Still a few of the Eastman mandolas floating around, I imagine. Pete Langdell has made a few copies, and I think Doug Unger did as well. John Sullivan made at least one. Lawrence Nyberg and Graham McDonald both make 2-points along the lines of the Style A. There's at least one other luthier whose name I can't bring to mind who has also made copies.

[Jim Garber]

No. 754 now on eBay: item #221863617536 starting bid $2000. Looks like a small crack on neck. Sorry I am on iPhone and can't figure out how to link from the eBay app.

Here's the link (now on my laptop) : Lyon & Healy No. 754 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/221863617536)

[mrmando]

Kevin Mathers is the other fellow I was thinking of:
http://hartford.craigslist.org/msg/5134433570.html

[mrmando]

Auction here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-LYON-HEALY-MODEL-A-PROFESSIONAL-MANDOLIN-BAROQUE-CIRCA-1921-22-/221863617536?hash=item33a81a2400

I see a lot of neck wear but am not sure I see a crack.

[Timbofood]

Nice to see enough DECENT photos on an eBay item! But, wasn't this supposed to be my birthday present?! :grin:
Oh well, too late now.

[hank]

Who knows but the last photo is the smoking gun.

[peter.coombe]

Hence why I like those models - it's a shame they aren't mass-produced like Gibson knock-offs are.

They are not mass produced because they are difficult and very time consuming to make. I know because I have made 2 replicas, not exact replicas, but they do have the same clarity, sweetness and overall balance of sound of the originals. Mine are louder and more responsive and have a slightly finer quality of sound to the originals. I have 2 originals and definitely do prefer the sound of mine. They have been my all time favourite oval hole mandolins. The differences from the original style A are only to save on costs. Exact replicas are so time consuming to make that the cost would be so high that hardly any one would be able to afford to buy them. It is not a big market for these mandolins. The scroll headstock requires custom made tuners, and the tailpiece is another thing that needs to be custom made so costs escalate. Each time I have finished one of my replicas my feeling has been - my goodness that has been SO much work I am exhausted, but wow the final result has been worth it. The Gibsons were designed to be mass produced in a factory so are a lot easier to make.

Here is one I finished recently -

137787

[Bob A]

Wonderful mandolins, providing the fine treble tones of a good bowlback with a stronger bass response. They sit between the Gibsons and the Italian bowls, and can't possible be praised enough. I'm always surprised that they aren't more appreciated, but maybe it's just as well, as it makes them affordable to those in the know.

I have an A in the shorter scale, and had a B in the longer scale, gone now. My A is strung with Dogal Calace strings; it took a few months to wear them past the point of "toothiness", the nature of the windings tended to grab and inhibit any sort of slide. Now, however, they're just right, and the damn things last so long I've not been able to try any other style of string. Still, the Calaces work very well with my example, so I'm not inclined to chafe much at the inablilty to experiment.

It's been a long time since the style B left; all I can recall is that it didn't seem to be so different from the A that it warranted hanging onto it.

For those with an interest in the more squalid questions, it ran about 3200 from Fred Oster a dozen years ago. The case was little more than junk, as I recall. I also recall being so stunned at the sonic qualities that I forgot to bargain. Probably just as well, as Fred seemed surprised at the sounds emanating from it, as well. I don't know whether he was overwhelmed at my playing, or trying to decide whether the cause of good music would be better served by refusing to sell it to me.

[BlueMountain]

These are superb Mandolins for classical music as well as very beautiful. The little metal foot to keep the mandolin from slipping on your thigh has a little sort of snap when it's out all the way like the snap when you plug in an electric mandolin cable all the way. If the Bakelite or whatever it is button is lost, it is very hard to get it out from the outside. You can see it sticking out inside the instrument if you use a flashlight and perhaps a little mirror. What I did to get mine out was (strings off at the time, but you could just loosen them) was to stick a piece of wood inside very carefully (it may have been curved. I don't recall) and carefully push it out. The first 1/4" is the hardest because of the threads, but it does take a bit of pressure. An exact replacement end button would be hard to come by. The easiest temporary repair would be take the mandolin to a hardware store and buy a nylon nut that fits the threads on the rod. If you are good with tools or have a bit of extra money to share with a luthier, you could make an end button out of ebony that has threads cut into it that would work like a nut.

[DavidKOS]

They are not mass produced because they are difficult and very time consuming to make. I know because I have made 2 replicas, not exact replicas, but they do have the same clarity, sweetness and overall balance of sound of the originals. ...... The Gibsons were designed to be mass produced in a factory so are a lot easier to make.



Thanks for posting, and that's lovely looking instrument. I appreciate the part about "Gibsons were designed to be mass produced in a factory"; I assumed that you could make the L and H with about the same effort, but I appear to be quite wrong.

[Knox Al]

Who knows but the last photo is the smoking gun.

Would you care to elaborate? I was interested in the mandolin but lack the experience to judge it's condition.

Thanks
Al

[OldGus]

It reveals a small crack or two under the head stock in the back of the neck running underneath the vulcanized fibre. I am also wondering about that elliptical mark under the bridge to the left side, is it a repair or some kind of oddball wear?

[Timbofood]

Well, unless it got lost in shipping it's late for my birthday! :))

[BradKlein]

So the instrument that started this thread sold at about $2500 on ebay, just for posterity.


The Gibsons were designed to be mass produced in a factory so are a lot easier to make.

Actually, I think that the L&H models were also designed to be mass produced in what was then an even bigger factory in Chicago than the Gibson factory in Kalamazoo. I'm happy to be corrected if that's not the case. There were very fine craftsman in both locations and they are both typical products of their time. I think the finish on the L&H models, A, B and C were equivalent or superior to the top of line Gibsons, for example.

[Knox Al]

It reveals a small crack or two under the head stock in the back of the neck running underneath the vulcanized fibre. I am also wondering about that elliptical mark under the bridge to the left side, is it a repair or some kind of oddball wear?


I take it those are not fatal flaws but would entail some repair cost. The items you mention and the broken out screw area on the headstock likely account for the price, along with the no return Ebay purchase.

A local shop here has an A model for $3,500. I haven't looked at it but the description notes a clean and solid repair at the base of the headstock, and it is missing the tailpiece.

Al

Al

[hank]

Al, there have been a few threads recently on broken neck to headstock repairs that for me bring irregularities in this area into question of a broken neck glued back together. In this case someone questioned the seller on EBay and there was more information made available to the area in question. The seller took more photos and stated he had a luthier inspect the area giving it a clean bill of health. A lot of these old mandolins have irregularities like this one making it more difficult to be sure of what you have or what your buying.

[peter.coombe]

I think the finish on the L&H models, A, B and C were equivalent or superior to the top of line Gibsons, for example.

I would agree with that, the varnish finish on the L&H mandolins is amongst the best I have seen. There were no where near as many L&H mandolins made as Gibsons, especially the L&H style A. I don't know anything about factory sizes, but L&H did make other instruments. When I look at my L&H style A's they are beautifully made, but do show some evidence that there was a lot of hand work involved, the sort of things a player would not notice, but they are obvious to me, especially now after I have made a couple. The luthiers who designed and made them certainly knew what they were doing.