Staying Tuned

[OkieWolf]

I'm a guitar player but I recently bought a mandolin because I think they're cool and I really like the sound. It's not a high end mandolin but I like how it sounds and plays. But the thing I've discovered is that keeping a mandolin in tune is nowhere near as forgiving as a guitar is. And I suppose the reason is that with a mandolin you have four sets of two strings and each pair are tuned the same....or are supposed to be.
I think I read in some other threads of people having similar issues. Is this a common thing with mandolins?

[mandroid]

its related to the string length .. being half the length it gets to be noticeable sooner..

Why does the mandolin have 8 strings? It increases the odds that one of them is in tune .. :))

[OkieWolf]

hehe.... ok.... so is there nothing that can be done to help

[Timbofood]

Nope, just be willing to tinker while you play.
After you get used to the idiosyncratic nature of the mandolin, you will start to see what's getting out of whack and make the adjustments more quickly or carefully.....if that's possible.

[mandolinstew]

Do you have a Guild mandolin Timbofood?

[Timbofood]

Don't I wish!!
That's my 1975 D-25M

[Tobin]

It's a function of scale length, in part. The unison strings also make it sound more out of tune than it would be if they were single strings (nothing makes me grit my teeth like two unison strings just slightly out of phase with each other). But it also has to do with the design of a mandolin, where arch tops probably "move" more than large flat tops as a result of temperature and humidity swings. It would make sense that a 3-dimensional shape moves more in 3 dimensions than a 2-dimensional one, though it's just a theory.

And while it seems opposite of what one would expect, the better-built mandolins are actually more subject to tuning issues due to their lighter build (making them more sensitive to changes). Their tuning machines may hold better and adjust easier than a cheap one, but the body will change more rapidly and dramatically than a thick-built one.

Learning to deal with tuning issues is just part of being a mandolin player.

[Mandoplumb]

A mandolin player spends half his playing time tuning the other half playing out of tune.

[Willie Poole]

When I install new strings I stretch them a few times and they never seem to go out of tune enough to drive me up a wall, I very seldom tune while playing but all of my mandolins have decent tuners and seem to stay in tune , I do check the tuning after each set to make sure at least that it is acceptable....

Willie

[Timbofood]

A buddy of mine is an advocate of putting strings on in the evening, tuning to pitch, not touching them again until the next day. He swears it works! He also swears that no two electronic tuners are alike. ;)
He fully admits he does not have perfect pitch and "one ear hears flat, the other sharp".
To quote the late great Charlie Waller: "There's nobody like people!"

I use Willie's technique most of the time, hand stretch a little bit, play in, adjust, then they are pretty stable.

[MysTiK PiKn]

Tuners slipping.
Strings slipping on tuners.
Strings slipping on tuners slipping. ;)


Other:
= String sticking in nut slot (slot too narrow, or worn, esp. at bottom) (lube might help, or graphite).

= When tuning = ALWAYS TUNE UP, never tune down, except to go below desired note, then tune upwards to desired pitch. (this deletes SLACK on the tuner - but won't fix a sticky nut slot).
EDIT = a sticky slot can delay response for an unpredictable amount of time????
Often 5 seconds. Maybe 5 minutes. Maybe????

When I change strings, I tune them up, and walk away.
Perhaps next day, retune, and walk away.
(repeat as needed)
(or some similar scenario, quasi-solution, etc. be creative)

[sblock]

There are quite a few reasons why a mandolin doesn't stay in tune. Some of these have already been mentioned, some not.

1) The truth is that many mandolins, particularly those new ones that cost less than around $1,000, tend to be poorly set up at the factory. As a result, the action is often too high, or the strings will tend to bind at the nut or the bridge, and so on. Many tuning problems on such instruments are ultimately traceable to a poor setup. ALL mandolins need to be well set up. All nuts need to allow the strings to pass freely and not to bind. This is probably THE most common tuning issue, IMO.

2) Yes, some tuners can grab or slip. This is especially a problem with some of the older tuners (like those on older Gibsons, from 1900-1960). Often, lubrication and cleaning can help. Sometimes older tuners may require replacement altogether. But tuner problems can also happen on newer instruments, too, especially when the tuner bushings are not in proper alignment. But most modern tuners, when properly installed, will NOT cause any problems. That doesn't stop folks from blaming them, though! Also, some tuners have loose buttons or more hysteresis/backlash, but always tuning UP to the note from below (and never down!) avoids any issues associated with these problems.

3) Some folks don't properly attach the strings to the tuners at the posts (with enough windings around the post, or with overwinding, or with a luthier's knot; there are many ways to do this right), or at the tailpiece, leading to string slippage. This usually results in sudden de-tuning, but it's also possible for strings to slip more slowly, and therefore go a bit flat over time.

4) Yes, our ears are much more sensitive to hearing tuning that's off when there are double courses, as is the case for the mandolin. Even a few Hertz of difference (a few cents of pitch) can produce audible beats between the strings of a given course when the strings are new. And when the strings are older, they may not "move into" the note at the same rate, and sound bad for that reason.

5) On top of that, our ears are more sensitive to minor pitch differences in the higher ranges -- like on the mandolin. It's much harder to detect small frequency differences in lower pitches. You can be rather far off-pitch with a bass guitar, for example, and it will still sound reasonable to most people. Bassists get away with murder.

6) Mandolins have short scale lengths and they are therefore more sensitive to small temperature differences (including, even, the heat imparted by your left hand while playing). They are also more sensitive to small changes in humidity. Higher humidity will cause wood in the neck to swell and make the notes go sharp. Mandolins made entirely of synthetic materials, like carbon-fiber, tend to be more immune to changes in temperature and humidity, and they stay in tune much longer! But most of us still like the sound of wood.

7) Yes, mandolins constructed with a lighter build may move a bit more than those with a heavier build (for reason #6, temperature or humidity changes), and thereby go out of tune. But I don't think this is such a big effect, personally. There is also the permeability and type of the finish to consider, which can also show effects due to changes in humidity.

8) Old strings just won't stay in tune. They tend to go flat when first hit, then rise slowly into pitch. You can see this clearly with an electronic tuner. Old wound strings may have bits of the winding worn away on the undersides, where they contact the frets. Old unwound strings may show visible kinks at the lower fret positions when you remove them. When tuning problems start to get worse, it's usually a sign that you need to change your strings.

9) Poor-quality strings won't stay in tune, either, or they may tune reasonably well when unfretted, but then give the wrong-pitched note at some frets! This problem is caused by strings that have non-constant diameters, due to bad pulls through the die while they were being formed, or to irregular windings, caused (for example) by variations in winding tension when they were made. Ir variations in the diameter of the winding wire. Always use high quality strings -- and avoid buying cheap, counterfeit strings.

10) The short scale length combined with high string tensions on the mandolin mean that extremely tiny changes in tuner post angle will translate into large changes in the string pitch. Put another way, mandolin tuners are extremely sensitive! Some tuners have 16:1, 18:1 or even 20:1 gear ratios, because the higher ratios can alleviate this problem. A bit. But the truth is that, regardless of the tuner ratio on your mandolin, you need to learn to make the TINIEST changes with the tuner knobs, sometimes just a degree or two, using the lightest possible touch to turn the posts. This is definitely a learned skill that gets better with practice.

11) And, of course, newly installed strings will stretch and go flat for a short while. You can pre-stretch these a bit with your hand (but don't overdo it!) and speed up the process.

But the bottom line is that if you play mandolin, you can look forward to to a lifetime of tuning and re-tuning. It's part of the job description, don't ya know?

[Tobin]

A buddy of mine is an advocate of putting strings on in the evening, tuning to pitch, not touching them again until the next day. He swears it works!

If he's not changing them during a full moon and chanting praise to Cthulhu, he's doing it all wrong.

[David Lewis]

half your time tuning and half your time playing out of tune.

The other tuning issue is equal temperament. But that won't be your issue here.

[Bill Baldridge]

I just put down my 1916 Gibson A before checking the posts on the Forum. I was so struck by how much better it stays in tune than any other mandolin that I have owned I was going to ask the builders about it.
Mandolins I have or do own include Weber, Collings, pre-Nashville Flatiorn, and less than ten-year-old Gibson Fern, and a Daley. My own guess as to why the hundred-year-old mandolin stays in tune better than the rest is that it is build like the proverbial brick #QX! house. The neck is like a tree trunk, top and bottom plates like tank armor. It has the same string length and strings, as my others, but with ancient tuners. Compared to the others it seems to care little about short-term changes in humidity or temperature. A most obvious trade-off is lack of volume.

[John Soper]

Also, the wood has had almost a century to realize that it is no longer a tree!

[MikeEdgerton]

Mandolin is the Italian word for out of tune.

[Brad Sicotte]

The Mike Marshall video on tuning changed my life: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO1umLM0TaU.

I also switched to a Peterson Strobe clip on tuner and that seems to help.

Happy Picking!

[Emmett Marshall]

I also switched to a Peterson Strobe clip on tuner and that seems to help.

The Peterson Stroboclip is the best one I've used so far. I've haven't touched my Snarks since I learned how to use that thing. I really like the "sustain" setting - which is for instruments without a lot of sustain. Have you tried the mandolin compensation setting? I've been thinking of giving it a whirl when I'm mostly playing in position #1 on the frets. We'll see what happens.

[Frankdolin]

There are quite a few reasons why a mandolin doesn't stay in tune. Some of these have already been mentioned, some not.

1) The truth is that many mandolins, particularly those new ones that cost less than around $1,000, tend to be poorly set up at the factory. As a result, the action is often too high, or the strings will tend to bind at the nut or the bridge, and so on. Many tuning problems on such instruments are ultimately traceable to a poor setup. ALL mandolins need to be well set up. All nuts need to allow the strings to pass freely and not to bind. This is probably THE most common tuning issue, IMO.

2) Yes, some tuners can grab or slip. This is especially a problem with some of the older tuners (like those on older Gibsons, from 1900-1960). Often, lubrication and cleaning can help. Sometimes older tuners may require replacement altogether. But tuner problems can also happen on newer instruments, too, especially when the tuner bushings are not in proper alignment. But most modern tuners, when properly installed, will NOT cause any problems. That doesn't stop folks from blaming them, though! Also, some tuners have loose buttons or more hysteresis/backlash, but always tuning UP to the note from below (and never down!) avoids any issues associated with these problems.

3) Some folks don't properly attach the strings to the tuners at the posts (with enough windings around the post, or with overwinding, or with a luthier's knot; there are many ways to do this right), or at the tailpiece, leading to string slippage. This usually results in sudden de-tuning, but it's also possible for strings to slip more slowly, and therefore go a bit flat over time.

4) Yes, our ears are much more sensitive to hearing tuning that's off when there are double courses, as is the case for the mandolin. Even a few Hertz of difference (a few cents of pitch) can produce audible beats between the strings of a given course when the strings are new. And when the strings are older, they may not "move into" the note at the same rate, and sound bad for that reason.

5) On top of that, our ears are more sensitive to minor pitch differences in the higher ranges -- like on the mandolin. It's much harder to detect small frequency differences in lower pitches. You can be rather far off-pitch with a bass guitar, for example, and it will still sound reasonable to most people. Bassists get away with murder.

6) Mandolins have short scale lengths and they are therefore more sensitive to small temperature differences (including, even, the heat imparted by your left hand while playing). They are also more sensitive to small changes in humidity. Higher humidity will cause wood in the neck to swell and make the notes go sharp. Mandolins made entirely of synthetic materials, like carbon-fiber, tend to be more immune to changes in temperature and humidity, and they stay in tune much longer! But most of us still like the sound of wood.

7) Yes, mandolins constructed with a lighter build may move a bit more than those with a heavier build (for reason #6, temperature or humidity changes), and thereby go out of tune. But I don't think this is such a big effect, personally. There is also the permeability and type of the finish to consider, which can also show effects due to changes in humidity.

8) Old strings just won't stay in tune. They tend to go flat when first hit, then rise slowly into pitch. You can see this clearly with an electronic tuner. Old wound strings may have bits of the winding worn away on the undersides, where they contact the frets. Old unwound strings may show visible kinks at the lower fret positions when you remove them. When tuning problems start to get worse, it's usually a sign that you need to change your strings.

9) Poor-quality strings won't stay in tune, either, or they may tune reasonably well when unfretted, but then give the wrong-pitched note at some frets! This problem is caused by strings that have non-constant diameters, due to bad pulls through the die while they were being formed, or to irregular windings, caused (for example) by variations in winding tension when they were made. Ir variations in the diameter of the winding wire. Always use high quality strings -- and avoid buying cheap, counterfeit strings.

10) The short scale length combined with high string tensions on the mandolin mean that extremely tiny changes in tuner post angle will translate into large changes in the string pitch. Put another way, mandolin tuners are extremely sensitive! Some tuners have 16:1, 18:1 or even 20:1 gear ratios, because the higher ratios can alleviate this problem. A bit. But the truth is that, regardless of the tuner ratio on your mandolin, you need to learn to make the TINIEST changes with the tuner knobs, sometimes just a degree or two, using the lightest possible touch to turn the posts. This is definitely a learned skill that gets better with practice.

11) And, of course, newly installed strings will stretch and go flat for a short while. You can pre-stretch these a bit with your hand (but don't overdo it!) and speed up the process.

But the bottom line is that if you play mandolin, you can look forward to to a lifetime of tuning and re-tuning. It's part of the job description, don't ya know?


Had to do it:grin: I think that's everything:popcorn:

[mandroid]

My Carbon Fiber Mix stays in tune pretty well .

Because it is not made of Wood. so the RH swings really does not change it.

:mandosmiley:

[Randi Gormley]

For me, it's just become habit to tune the mandolin every time I pick it up and I'm always a little bit surprised when it's still in tune from the last time I played it, even if it's the same day; I've found that it's more apt to be out of tune in summer (I don't have a/c) because of the vagaries of the outside temps and humidity. It's true that my husband's guitar seems to stay in tune longer -- but he also only changes strings once in a blue moon and I have to do it every month or so. I just figure it's one of the little quirks of playing mandolin. Brass and woodwinds have to be tuned a lot, too, iirc.

[MysTiK PiKn]

Heat from my hand - warm it up, then tune it. or, slide hand over strings to warm them slightly.

[allenhopkins]

Ya know, nothing really stays in tune, which is why they put those li'l pegs or tuning pins or whatever on every stringed instrument. It's a question of degree. It's also why woodwinds and brass come with slides to make their tubes longer or shorter, and why drums have ways of adjusting the tightness, and thus the pitch, of their heads.

Higher-pitched instruments seem to display their dissonance more evidently than lower-voiced ones; I can "forgive" my bass fiddle for being a few "cents" sharp or flat, more readily than my mandolin or banjo. And surely the need to tune mandolin string pairs in unison, underscores those instances when they're not in unison.

When I've been around inexperienced stringed-instrument buyers, often those picking out a "first guitar" for a child, one of their first questions often is "will it stay in tune?" And the answer, of course, is "No" -- especially when ten-year-old Junior is going at it.

Certain types of string -- nylon or gut, e.g., -- seem to take forever to stop stretching and hold pitch. Certain playing techniques, like forceful picking or string bending, pull strings out of tune faster than gentle strumming.

If instruments could be made to stay in tune, Snark, Korg, Intellitouch et. al. would be driven out of business. How many times have I kvetched, "If I ever get this *&#@ in tune, I'll weld it there!"

Still haven't learned to weld.

[Ivan Kelsall]

My 3 mandolins do stay in tune for days at a time.The thing that really affects them is the temperature & relative humidity. Although here in the UK,humidity isn't such a big deal,except for the last 3 days over here,when it's been very humid. My mandolins go sharp when cold & they go flat when it gets warmer. Usually,if i'm going to play one of them,i'll open the case & let the instrument 'breathe' for a couple of hours.If it needs tuning after that,i just get it done,it usually only takes a minute. yesterday,i played my Weber. It was the first time in 3 days,i'd played my Lebeda & Ellis the days before.The Weber was still very much in tune. I've found that the "A" stings are usually the ones that go out of 'synch.' with one another,possibly because they get most of the picking on them. After re-stringing & tuning up,a couple of hours practice on the mandolin sorts any 'stretching' out,it's enjoyable as well. I may have to re-tune a couple of times during that period,but after that,they're pretty stable.
As an aside to this,banjos go out of tune pretty quickly as well. Picking hard using metal finger picks puts a heck of a load on the strings & the G & B strings often need a tweak back into tune - it's just what you have to do - hard life ain't it ?,:whistling:
Ivan;)

[Brad Sicotte]

The Peterson Stroboclip is the best one I've used so far. I've haven't touched my Snarks since I learned how to use that thing. I really like the "sustain" setting - which is for instruments without a lot of sustain. Have you tried the mandolin compensation setting? I've been thinking of giving it a whirl when I'm mostly playing in position #1 on the frets. We'll see what happens.

I actually use the Mandolin compensation setting all the time and really like it. I think it skews the strings a little more sharp and, to my ear, makes the mandolin sparkle a bit. Also, I find that many of the people I play with tend to tune on the sharp side.

[Tobin]

I've found that the "A" stings are usually the ones that go out of 'synch.' with one another,possibly because they get most of the picking on them.

Me too. I get this issue on every mandolin I own. I don't know what it is about the A strings that makes them so finicky, but they are always the ones that give me the most trouble. The A strings will always drift sharp when I'm playing, and they seldom do it in sync with each other. The uppermost string of the pair (the one closest to the D strings) is the one I'm always having to tune back down below A and bring back up to pitch. I suppose you're right - this is the string that probably gets the most picking on it, especially the first one of the course that I hit on the downstroke.

Changing to a 0.016" A string has helped, but it is still an issue. It's just part of mandolin playing, I suppose. I'm sure someone could engineer these little quirks out of the instrument's design, but I'm not sure I would want it to be perfect.

[Willie Poole]

When I install strings I stretch them and pluck them and stretch them again until they don`t go flat when I pluck them, it takes a little time but it has cured my constant tuning when doing a show.... Don`t pull too hard when stretching them or you will be replacing them all over again...

Willie

[k0k0peli]

Old banter: "Now I'm going to play that Chinese classic, Tu-Ning!" [rimshot]

Or, "Now I'll play an old spiritual, Oh Lord Why Can't I Keep This Damn Thing In Tune?"

I put nulgut strings (Aquila Soprano Fifths, set 30U) on an 'uke, tuned them 1/2-step high, and went away for six weeks. When I returned they had *almost* stretched. Steel strings stretch faster. I hand-stretch guitar strings. On mandos I just change the strings, tune them a bit high, wait overnight, tune them high again, and by noon they're about good for an hour maybe. Snark is my constan companion.