Next mandolin: high end import or low end domestic

[Plunker]

A while back forum folks were helpful when I found a Kentucky 254. I ended up buying a KM270 which has a very nice fat tone - particularly when I use a proplec. I guess I've caught MAS because I'm thinking about a second mandolin - maybe a step up. From what I have played, I think I like the Kentucky sound better than the Eastman (the two budget instruments in my area).

The Kentucky KM950 looks sweet - ebony, radiused fingerboard with guitar-like frets. I play the steel string guitar, so that's familiar. Good reviews. Since this would be mail order, I wonder what I might expect in comparison to my KM270? There is also the KM505, but I don't think it has the fat frets.

On the domestic side, the M model on the Northfield web site looks interesting. More money than the KM950, and a stretch financially, but similar ergonomic features. Would it be 50% better than the KM950? Limited reviews on this model.

[JeffD]

I don't think Northfields are domestic (to the USA). Please correct me if I am wrong. I thought they were made in China, in Qingdao. Maybe only certain models or maybe only certain procedures.

Someone who knows will chime in here.

[JEStanek]

Northfields are made over seas and finished over in the US. I wouldn't let that deter you, they get great reviews. I will offer this as another option if purchasing domestically is important. For similar price for the Northfield M, new, $1800 you can get a used Collings MT, a variety of used Webers, even (if you can find one) a used Old Wave. There are other builders in that price range as well.

Jamie

[Plunker]

Thanks for the quick replies!

JeffD - I think the new "M" model is made entirely in the U.S. But, country of origin is not an issue for me, just a detail.

Jamie - Thanks. I can't say that I am fond of the sound of Collings guitars or mandolins. There is a store not too far that has a regular inventory and, honestly, I like the tone of the KM270 over the Collings that shows up at a local jam session. Never seen a Weber or Old Wave

[itstooloudMike]

Walter at June Mandolins (Campobello, South Carolina) has got a recently completed A-style that he is asking $1350 for, and his work is highly regarded here on the Cafe. I doubt you could find a better, hand made mandolin for that kind of money. If I didn't already have a sweet Weber Bitteroot-A, I would have snapped up this June A-5. Walter does beautiful work.

[JeffD]

. Never seen a Weber or Old Wave

Oh you should. They are among the best sounding and playing instruments available. I have only played a few Old Waves, but I was very impressed. I have played many a Weber, own a few, and again, always very impressive. Great folks to deal with too BTW.

Northfields get a lot of good reviews, folks are really happy with them. I tried one and I loved it.


There is a lot of great stuff out there at that price point, especially on the secondary market, that could make you happy for ever.

[darrylicshon]

So you own a oval hole and want an F hole which F holes do not sound like ovals. I saw a nice oval weber sale in your range last week, which i wanted cause i have a cheaper 80's oval hole that sounds great, just not very loud

[Hadji36]

+1 on June Mandolins.

Walter Johnson is a great guy. Give him a call and let him know what you are looking for...

He's very pleasant, knowledgeable and makes a very nice mandolin...NFI

[Chootum]

Northfields are amazing. I would put my F5s against any Collings any day.
Super balanced, loud and very round modern sound. Excellent playability. The finish maybe 7/10. But the sound is on par with any high end mandolin.

[sunburst]

A high end import can cost over $20,000. For much less than half of that amount you can have you choice of high end domestic mandolins.

[peter.coombe]

A high end import can cost over $20,000.

Not from me! I wish. If a Gilchrist then yes?

[OldGus]

From what I've heard the Northfield isn't necessarily an upgrade from the Kentucky.

[Plunker]

Thanks again for th replies. I guess high and low end is relative. I'm sure that my playing would not highlight the value of an instrument costing more than my car.

It's amazing how fast the conversation went from talking about $1k mandolins to $20k mandolins!

[Chootum]

From what I've heard the Northfield isn't necessarily an upgrade from the Kentucky.

Believe me it is. I own both Collings and Northfield. And the Northfield is a better instrument in every aspect except finish.

[Seattle]

I know this must have been asked before (but I haven't seen it)...what is the difference in sound between a decent low end mandolin and a much higher end mandolin?

Is it mostly about things other than sound such as looks, how it feels in the hand, etc?

I have several guitars (by way of comparison) and I have owned ones costing much more than what I currently own. As long as you aren't buying a real piece of crap and as long as it's set up properly I don't really hear a lot of difference as the price of a guitar starts to go way up.

I'm guessing it's the same with mandolins but I don't know for sure as I just bought my first mandolin (KM-150).

If the strings are the same and the set-up is the same and both models are solid wood...how many (important) variables are there? I'm guessing not many.

With the few comparisions I've been able to find on YouTube the sound seems fairly similar to me.

[OldGus]

Believe me it is. I own both Collings and Northfield. And the Northfield is a better instrument in every aspect except finish.

I said the Kentucky. I believe it was 'Almeria Strings' that wrote about it and he has both types (2 KM-1000's, not a KM-950) but I would imagine comparisons would vary some anyways. I haven't personally played a Northfield though...

[almeriastrings]

I said the Kentucky. I believe it was 'Almeria Strings' that wrote about it and he has both types (2 KM-1000's, not a KM-950) but I would imagine comparisons would vary some anyways. I haven't personally played a Northfield though...

Yes, I did have two very fine KM-1000's at one time, and I have played a KM-900 too. They are very good mandolins and given the price, excellent value. The Northfield is definitely a big step up, however, in my opinion. You can put that up against many 8K+ instruments and it is not outclassed. The one I have is a "Big Mon' and it is a really great instrument. You really need to try them both if possible.

[Chootum]

I know this must have been asked before (but I haven't seen it)...what is the difference in sound between a decent low end mandolin and a much higher end mandolin?

Is it mostly about things other than sound such as looks, how it feels in the hand, etc?

I have several guitars (by way of comparison) and I have owned ones costing much more than what I currently own. As long as you aren't buying a real piece of crap and as long as it's set up properly I don't really hear a lot of difference as the price of a guitar starts to go way up.

I'm guessing it's the same with mandolins but I don't know for sure as I just bought my first mandolin (KM-150).

If the strings are the same and the set-up is the same and both models are solid wood...how many (important) variables are there? I'm guessing not many.

With the few comparisions I've been able to find on YouTube the sound seems fairly similar to me.

A mandolin has a very specific geometry required for sound generation. The shapeof the top and the bottom, as well as the materials used have a huge effect on quality of sound and volume. Flat top instruments are not so dependent on these factors. Think of the mandolin more as a violin than a guitar. In mandolins and violins, the most miniscule change in top or bottom thickness can make considerable difference in tone. It is a very fragile and susceptible balance in the geometry of the instrument. High quality instruments have a cleaner tone, they are louder, they are more balanced in tone (bottom mid and top), have a superior playability, and have a more colorful voice, among other factors. Just listen to John Reischman's Loar and compare to what a Kentucky, or Johnson, or Eastman sounds like. Good things cost money, and they are worth every penny.

[almeriastrings]

I know this must have been asked before (but I haven't seen it)...what is the difference in sound between a decent low end mandolin and a much higher end mandolin?


The only way to know that is to go somewhere where you can play a lot of mandolins... it is also important to note that even "high end" instruments can sound quite different from each other. This is where 'mandolin tastings' are useful.

You do get high class construction, gorgeous woods and a top class finish, but the main thing is the sound, and yes... you really can hear it. One area it stands out is in the incredible "carrying power" or "room filling" capability of a truly fine instrument. That's something you just don't get at all towards the bottom of the ladder, and you only begin to get it as you move quite a way up. The very best mandolins "just keep on giving" no matter how hard you drive them, too. No breakup or "harshness".

[Ivan Kelsall]

Almeria is correct - you need to play quite a few mandolins of as many brands & styles as you can.That way you have a 'hands on' experience to feel / hear how they play & to see if they're comfortable for you regarding fret size, neck shape etc. Only then can you make your own informed choice. Other Cafe members can only give their opinions & advice,& as good & as well informed as that might be,if a recommended mandolin doesn't suit you......................!,
Ivan;)

[Willie Poole]

A big nod of the head as to what Ivan said..a lot of people on here will like a different sound in a mandolin so in my opinion if you listen to ALL of them you will just get confused, Play as many as you can and when the right one comes along it will "speak" to you, that is what causes MAS and we all get it sooner or later...Just to prove my point I see all of the good things said on here about Weber and Eastman mandolins and I have played quite a few of each and have never played one that suits my taste but that just shows what different people look for in a mandolin sound...Lots of luck in your testing, it will take a while for you to try them all and also some mandolins made by the same maker will sound different some of the time...

Willie

[Mandoplumb]

Willie glad to hear what you said about webbers and eastmans. I thought something was wrong with me and my ears because I feel the same way. I was going to tell Seattle that if he couldn't hear the difference go with the cheaper one but thought that sounded sort of smart alect, you said the same thing with more tact.

[dwc]

+1 on June Mandolins.

Walter Johnson is a great guy. Give him a call and let him know what you are looking for...

He's very pleasant, knowledgeable and makes a very nice mandolin...NFI

+2 on Walter's "June" mandolins. What you have here is a classic false dichotomy. You can get a handmade American mandolin that sounds great for under $2000. I have June #57 and it is a great mandolin.

I am also not a huge fan of the Colling's tone (no disrespect meant to Colling's, they build great mandolins, just not my cup of tea tonally).

My June is the antithesis of a Colling's. The June is X braced and has an Engelmann spruce top. It has great lows and a chop that can go from bark to crack. But the thing I like best is that the tone stays strong and clear all the way up the neck without ever getting piercing or shrill, which to my ears is my main complaint with the Collings' I have played and heard.

[lflngpicker]

+2 on Walter's "June" mandolins. What you have here is a classic false dichotomy. You can get a handmade American mandolin that sounds great for under $2000. I have June #57 and it is a great mandolin.

I am also not a huge fan of the Colling's tone (no disrespect meant to Colling's, they build great mandolins, just not my cup of tea tonally).

My June is the antithesis of a Colling's. The June is X braced and has an Engelmann spruce top. It has great lows and a chop that can go from bark to crack. But the thing I like best is that the tone stays strong and clear all the way up the neck without ever getting piercing or shrill, which to my ears is my main complaint with the Collings' I have played and heard.
Thanks for that analysis. Good to be able to read a different view and gain some insight. I too am on a similar hunt .

[MysTiK PiKn]

Illusions. You might find "the one". Walk away. Play some others. Go back. If it still makes you cry, buy it.

I did this. I was ready to trade the farm. On return, it sucked. I still don't know what happened. I wanted to trade - but the 'manager' was out - lucky for me.

I have had similar experiences elsewhere. A lot (subjective) depends on how you feel, what the trial room is like, and what else you can compare it to. It's kinda like you have to believe your ears - but you may be listening with your feet. I know; that's really crazed. A friend with you can play while you listen. Also have a known instrument with you, to compare directly.!!

But once you have heard really good; you can't forget that. Did that too. It was what I knew a mandolin COULD sound like. I just didn't have 9k for that - and I doubt I ever will. Lottery, sure, no problem.

Apitius !! side by side w a gib at elderly, few years ago. It's gone. The memory remains as a pleasant experience. If you know good sound, if that has touched you, it isn't about brand. Cheap can sound good; but side by side w quality .... be careful, either way. An emotional decision needs to be honest - this is not easy to describe, sorry. Little voice yelling at you - I dunno. The decision is all yours. Walk away. You either know, or you don't.

[Michael Neverisky]

I like the walking away idea. Good advice!

I have a Kentucky 270 (or 272, whichever is sunburst) like the OP. Lovely sound.

I spent some time in a well stocked music store in the Boston area last week. They had Collings, Gibson, Kentucky, Northfield, Eastman, Pava.... many of the names I read here. I played 6 or so instruments at price points that varied by an order of magnitude. About 10 minutes with each. I was surprised by the one I liked best... the one that sounded most musical to me. I would have not picked that mandolin were I ordering from a catalog.

Ugh... I am old. I should say ordering from a web site.

[Scott L]

I currently own a KM-950 and I think it's a really great mandolin for the money. I also own a Pava A-5, '99 Flatiron Festival, and a 1921 Gibson A-4 that I can compare it to. Out of the bunch, the Pava sounds the best to my ears and is currently my favorite, but the Kentucky sounds and plays great as well. It is cleanly built, looks great, and is really loud. I'd say the tone is drier and brighter than the Pava or Flatiron, but it is a great sounding mandolin. It has a radiused fingerboard, wider frets, and a scooped extension, all of which make it very comfortable to play. I haven't played a Northfield, but I highly recommend the Km-950. Bought mine from one of the Cafe sponsors and it came nicely setup and hasn't needed a bit of work or adjustment yet. Buying from a seller that does nice setup work is key. I should mention that I've also owned an Eastman 515 and a Loar LM-600. The 515 looked great, but sounded a bit bright and thin to me. The LM-600 had a very thick nitro finish, mediocre tone, and the finish work was rather poor in some areas. The km-950 I have is so much nicer than either one of those.

[mandopaul]

I currently own a KM-950 and I think it's a really great mandolin for the money. I also own a Pava A-5, '99 Flatiron Festival, and a 1921 Gibson A-4 that I can compare it to. Out of the bunch, the Pava sounds the best to my ears and is currently my favorite, but the Kentucky sounds and plays great as well. It is cleanly built, looks great, and is really loud. I'd say the tone is drier and brighter than the Pava or Flatiron, but it is a great sounding mandolin. I should mention that I've also owned an Eastman 515 and a Loar LM-600. The 515 looked great, but sounded a bit bright and thin to me. The LM-600 had a very thick nitro finish, mediocre tone, and the finish work was rather poor in some areas. The km-950 I have is so much nicer than either one of those.

Did the KM950 sound as bright / thin as the LM600 in your opinion? I was looking into getting a Northfield M, and it has a nice pop to the notes. But i can't afford to spend 1899 on a new one. So I was thinking about the KM950 instead.

[Scott L]

I don't think the KM-950 sounds thin at all. It is brighter and drier than my Pava and Flatiron, but I think it sounds very good. I actually prefer playing the km-950 over the Flatiron (could be I prefer a radiused board). It's loud, has a great chop, the intonation is excellent, and it really projects. I think it's particularly well suited for bluegrass, although that's not what I play most of the time. The tone, volume and build quality are so much better than the LM600. I think they are a great value, and are the best I've played in that price range. I keep reading good things about the Northfields, and they look great, but the one's I've seen cost quite a bit more than the Kentucky. The Mandolin Store has a great demo video of the km-950 showing how good it sounds. But, then again, it seems like that guy at the Mandolin Store on a lot of those videos makes everything he plays sound killer. I do recommend the km-950 unless you've got more money to spend. It seems there are lots of very nice mandolins that cost between $2000-3000, including many that show up in the classifieds.

Although I haven't tried one, I would definitely check out the Morris mandolins for something in roughly the same price range as the Kentucky. The ones that have been coming through the classifieds look beautiful, are made by a small builder here in the U.S., and they've been getting great reviews.

[almeriastrings]

The KM-900 and KM-950 are, in my opinion, by far the best mandolin you can buy new at anything like that price. They are very well built, use high quality materials, have a nice, thin finish and play and sound great. If I had to go shopping with around that amount, I can pretty much guarantee I'd come back home with a KM-950. They are easily as good as some $2K+ instruments.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Although i haven't played a KM900 or 950,i have played their 'little sister' a KM505 a while back,& it was superb,not just for it's price either. The KM900 was modelled on the only known Lloyd Loar "A" style mandolin known to be in existence & i have to assume that the 950 is the same. The 'Kentucky' guys did such an incredible building job on the KM900,that many folks on here who own one testify to their incredible tonal qualities. Scott L & Almeria above have got it spot on in their advice to at least try a KM900/950 on for size & keep an eye on the Cafe Classified ads.to see if one comes up for sale,
Ivan;)

[Seattle]

I have a question for the more experienced among you. If you were to listen to an excellent musician (whomever you picked) playing a KM-150, KM-950 and whatever your dream mandolin is...could you tell which was which from simply listening?

Or, if you could play them but were in a dark room would you be able to tell a KM-150 from the KM-950 or the dream mandolin? If so what would you notice? Something about the sound or something about how it played?

[almeriastrings]

Or, if you could play them but were in a dark room would you be able to tell a KM-150 from the KM-950 or the dream mandolin? If so what would you notice? Something about the sound or something about how it played?

Both.

The first question, I guess, would be could you expect to tell a KM from, say, an Ellis, Heiden, Gilchrist or (insert your favourite top class builder)?

I would unhesitatingly say 'Yes' to that.

Telling a really good KM-150 from a KM-950 would not be quite so easy on sound alone, though I would think in most cases you would be able to do so. You could certainly do so on "feel" as there is quite a big difference there.

[dwc]

I had a recent Kentucky KM 1500 and a Gibson F5 in my house simultaneously. You could very easily tell the difference between the two. My wife could tell which one I was playing from another room, and she isn't a musician and doesn't pay close attention to what I am playing, so between a KM 900 and a Gilchrist Model 3 or an Ellis A, absolutely. I think I could tell them apart in a blind taste test.

That being said, every recent KM 900 and higher I have played has been a very good mandolin.

[Mandoplumb]

If you didn't know the instruments I doubt you could tell the Kentucky from your "dream mandolin" the first time you heard them. You could tell a difference and would probably prefer one over the other but it may surprise you which one. After owning or knowing the mandolins you could probably identify them if they were two Kentuckys or two Gibsons or one of each. I've told this here before but I'lll tell it again. My Dad played banjo, the same one for most of his life. I had listened to that banjo to the point that if Dad had to do anything to it that required taking it apart I could tell by the way it sounded. I doubt if someone listening to it for the first time could have told it had been apart in the last week.

[Michael Neverisky]

Being familiar with the sound of a particular instrument played by a particular person... it's like knowing the sound of your own dog when she barks.

In the guitar world, I am 100% certain I could tell a D-18 from a 910 from a J-50 from a D-55. That's because Taylor, Gibson and Guild are not trying to build a Martin. Is Kentucky, Ellis, whoever.. trying to build a Gibson?

Which one sounds "better" is totally subjective and independent of the price tag.

[CES]

My wife, who is a musician (piano/vocals) but doesn't play mando, guitar, etc, can easily tell the difference between my Silverangel and my old Kentucky 675s. Same for the newer Eastman 315 I picked up at a steal a few weeks ago. Both of the imports sound good, and to the general public would sound like a mandolin if they saw me playing one out somewhere. I've gotten some nice compliments on the Eastman from musicians and non musicians alike, but the Silverangel just has a much richer tone, better note clarity/separation all the way across/up the fretboard, and better sustain and bass response. It simply sounds better, realizing that better is a truly subjective descriptor...and realizing that my two imports aren't in the same class as the "master built" Kentucky mandos.

I haven't compared it to any km 900/950/1000/1500 mandos. I have compared it to many vintage Gibsons, one Poe, a couple of The Loar and Boviers, a Bob Shue mando, and a more recent Gibson F5L, and suffice it to say I didn't trade it for any of them. There are others that surely would have, highlighting the wonderful subjectivity of it all. Watch Chris Thile sample the Loars at Carter's. You can definitely hear differences, and it's clear that he feels the differences, on a much greater level than I can.

So, if you can't feel or hear the differences between a 300 dollar mandolin and a 1000/3000/200,000 dollar mandolin, then save some cash and get the 300 dollar one. I don't mean that as a criticism, but it takes playing these things a while to really decide the "feel" you like and to hear subtle differences in tone, and I'm still developing these preferences 12 years into the adventure...

[JeffD]

Both.

The first question, I guess, would be could you expect to tell a KM from, say, an Ellis, Heiden, Gilchrist or (insert your favourite top class builder)?

I would unhesitatingly say 'Yes' to that.

Telling a really good KM-150 from a KM-950 would not be quite so easy on sound alone, though I would think in most cases you would be able to do so. You could certainly do so on "feel" as there is quite a big difference there.

That has been my experience as well.

[Michael Neverisky]

No doubt the listener will have a preference. Can not be certain it will be for the instrument that another will like. Price aside.

I went to a guitar shop with a good friend a while back. He pulled an old Southern Jumbo off the wall and played a few notes. Then handed the guitar to me saying "this embodies everything I dislike about the sound of a Gibson. You're gonna love it"

[D C Blood]

A second to CES, who mentioned his Silverangel a short time ago. Ken Ratcliff makes the best mandolins, A style and F syle...I've been playing mando fifty-two years now, and in that time I've had a lot of mandolins. The A model "Ratcliff" I use now beats all but two that I've had in the past, for both volume and tone. I'm not sure what his price is now, but whatever it is, it is worth every penny. If you ask anybody who has or has had one, I'd be pretty sure they would confirm...

[mandroid]

Gibson and Weber both forgo the deluxe finish and fancy bindings to have something to sell at a lower cost .

[KGreene]

Being familiar with the sound of a particular instrument played by a particular person... it's like knowing the sound of your own dog when she barks.

As an avid competition coon hunter, that's an excellent analogy! in my mind, in response to the original question "high end import or low end domestic" ... I personally would always go with the "domestic". my question to the OP would be, (based on the question), why not go with a "high end domestic"?

Don't settle... you won't be satisfied in the end.

JMTCW

[Michael Neverisky]

I went back to that boutique shop in Boston a couple of days ago to
review the inventory again and circle back to that one standout. This
time I brought my KM270, my two favorite picks and a second pair of
ears.

Surprises again. The standout left me cold this time and even with a
few reaches up to the top shelf (stop me if you've heard this before)
the only instrument that evoked a positive visceral response to all
four of our ears was the KM270. Maybe because it's my dog... but
that's why I brought along the other ears.

Specs are fine, provenance is one thing... what stirs the heart may
be another. Hopefully the OP can try a few and see which instrument
picks him/her.

[vince f]

Willie,

also agree on Weber and Eastman. The few Webers I have played sounded surprisingly "eastman like". I have heard and played a lot of eastmans, and they struck me as similar to my 70s F800 Alvarez. Better fit and finish, but similar thin sound. No WOW moments. I have jammed with many Eastman players, and I can say that there was only 1 time I was impressed with what I was hearing. One out of maybe 60-70. I heard this mando, and was struck by it. I turned around to see, and it was an Eastman. I finally went with a Carlson Era Flatiron A. I cannot afford an American made F of any quality, and I was just not impressed with any imports. I will also say that Collings is hit and miss for me. I have played a few that stood out, and more that were forgetable.

[Loubrava]

Great question from OP, and after reading all the posts maybe I'm missing the point . The KM 950 is about 1200.00 new and if that's the OP budget and considered a high end import is there any domestic made mandolin that go new or used for around that price ?
Most domestic mandos seem to start at over 2K the mid priced ones 3.5K and up. It just seems there are no domestic mandos in lower price range. The opinions from everybody on how one mando stakes up against another is great and really helped me a few months back on my first mando purchase (a used Loar 600) and my recent 2nd mando (a used Godin A8) As others have said the used market is the place look if your on a budget.

[almeriastrings]

Well, you can find (used) Silverangel A models for around that sometimes, also the excellent Flatiron A-styles. Those would be towards the top of my list with that kind of budget.

[OldGus]

Poe beats Silverangel in my experience... actually mine was an earlier 'Silver Eagle' but the workmanship on that Poe was seemingly perfect and the tone was pretty amazing. It was also loud...

[fatt-dad]

I have a question for the more experienced among you. If you were to listen to an excellent musician (whomever you picked) playing a KM-150, KM-950 and whatever your dream mandolin is...could you tell which was which from simply listening?

Or, if you could play them but were in a dark room would you be able to tell a KM-150 from the KM-950 or the dream mandolin? If so what would you notice? Something about the sound or something about how it played?

to the former, "No."
to the latter, "Yes."

to the general point. You seem to want to argue against your peers that like hand made instruments that cost more than $2K. What's the return to you? I mean if you are happy with a KM-150, 505, 900, or 950, be happy! I just don't get your perspective on tools. A used Ellis A-model at $4,000.00 may sound the same to you as a new KM-950. DON'T BUY THE ELLIS. A used KM-950 is a $750 mandolin though. A used Ellis will remain a $4K mandolin though. Are you asking basic economic questions? There are books about that stuff. . .

f-d

[vince f]

For the 1k-1500 price range, a selection of used A styles. Flatiron A5, A5 performer, A5 jr. I seriously lucked out and got an A5-2 for $1300.00, Gibson A9, Ratliff. You certainly can't get a domestic F5 in that range. If you must have a scroll, import is the way.

This was a good deal:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Flatiron-Performer-A-sunburst-mandolin-/291547396190?hash=item43e194385e



Great question from OP, and after reading all the posts maybe I'm missing the point . The KM 950 is about 1200.00 new and if that's the OP budget and considered a high end import is there any domestic made mandolin that go new or used for around that price ?
Most domestic mandos seem to start at over 2K the mid priced ones 3.5K and up. It just seems there are no domestic mandos in lower price range. The opinions from everybody on how one mando stakes up against another is great and really helped me a few months back on my first mando purchase (a used Loar 600) and my recent 2nd mando (a used Godin A8) As others have said the used market is the place look if your on a budget.

[Seattle]

to the former, "No."
to the latter, "Yes."

to the general point. You seem to want to argue against your peers that like hand made instruments that cost more than $2K. What's the return to you? I mean if you are happy with a KM-150, 505, 900, or 950, be happy! I just don't get your perspective on tools. A used Ellis A-model at $4,000.00 may sound the same to you as a new KM-950. DON'T BUY THE ELLIS. A used KM-950 is a $750 mandolin though. A used Ellis will remain a $4K mandolin though. Are you asking basic economic questions? There are books about that stuff. . .

f-d
I think you are the only one who is arguing. :) I was just asking questions. You've pointed out that you can't hear the difference but have answered my question about being able to tell the difference by touch.

Regarding economics, I have a taken plenty of economics classes. My question wasn't about economics. It was about all of the factors excluding economics. I understand the reasons that people will pay more for some things beyond their actual function.

I was trying to learn more about the actual function.

[vince f]

I think you are the only one who is arguing. :) I was just asking questions. You've pointed out that you can't hear the difference but have answered my question about being able to tell the difference by touch.

Regarding economics, I have a taken plenty of economics classes. My question wasn't about economics. It was about all of the factors excluding economics. I understand the reasons that people will pay more for some things beyond their actual function.

I was trying to learn more about the actual function.

I will relay some experience with the economics and the function:

Function first. I play guitar, banjo, bass, mandolin. been playing for 35 years (guitar). When I started, I thought my Ovation bowlback was awesome. Then I got my Guild (westerly, dread, mahogany), my friends and I all agreed it was a great guitar, better than anything we had before. It took me a decade of playing and visiting music stores to realize what I was missing. Every time I played a bunch of guitars, 90% were not much better than what I had, but I always ended up on a rosewood dread. Even then, some were soso(not worth my hard earned cash), some were great. I set about to find a GREAT rosewood dread, at a price I could afford, and ended up with Mossman (still I have played some that were soso, the one I bought is a cut above for my ears). I can walk into almost any guitar store, play everything they have 2K to 10K and a) find none that sound better and b) find only a few that sound as good. Worth noting. I am a contrarian in the BG world. The only Martin I would trade for was a Braz D35 (and only 1 of the 3 or 4 I have played). Have not played a D28 I would trade for. For reference, I have tried Collings, Huss, SC (real nice, best current volume builder IMHO)Goodall, Martin, and most of the other popular stuff.

Similar experience with Banjo, have landed on one that I would not trade for any but a very few I have played. I would say I am not there yet with my Mando or bass. Money is always a limiting factor. Finding the right sound at the right price is always a challenge, and I am not rich enough to spend big money.

Long and short: If you do not hear it or feel it, you are not ready yet. Why would you spend the dough if you are not hearing or feeling the difference? Spend the money getting yourself to jam sessions and music stores to educate your ears, and your time practicing so when you do find it you can make it sing.

Also on function. If you can at all afford it, do not suffer with instruments below your playing level. You will play more, and inspire yourself to greater things with an instrument that is at least a notch above your playing level If you go into a music store, and get a WOW feeling with anything you play, it is time to start saving up and shopping. I have experienced this myself. I was barely playing mando, had a 70s alvarez A800. Nice, but not great. When I got my Flatiron, I played more and enjoyed it more.

on the economics:

1) fine American made instruments bought well (used, haggle, be patient) hold their value. If you can afford to have the money tied up, you will not likely lose much, and may gain. As with any investment, NEEDING to sell when there are limited buyers will risk netting you a loss. It is a better place to park your money than a boat, motorcycle or car. Congrats, you have picked a hobby for which the tools actually hold value (ask a photographer who has been at it for 40 years if he can say that)

2) I was in a store about mid 90s. I had no idea who played what brand. All F style, Mix of used and new Collings, Gibson, Kentucky, Gilchrist. I had only heard of the Kentucky and Gibson. Both were just OK. The Collings was WAY better, then the store owner handed me the Gilchrist. Fully 1000 bucks more than the Collings (4800 I think) and USED! It was so much better than any of the others. In a league of its own, the sound was like nothing I had ever heard, and I had played a LOT of the popular mandos by this time (flats, Gibson, all the asian ones). The brand was foreign to me. Which would have been the better investment? I certainly did not have the money anyway, but the other 3 have appreciated maybe 50-75%, the Gilchrist 200%. Lesson: educate your ears, trust your ears. Ignore the advice on the internet. Everyone has something to sell, everyone wants to believe what they just bought is the best. It probably is to them.

3) I picked with a guy in 1989 that had a Wayne Henderson F5. Most people had not heard of him back then. Everyone thought he was nuts to pay 2500 for a no name mando. Until they heard it. Better than any of the Gibsons and Flatirons at the jam to my ears. You hear it, and have to ask "what is that".

[vince f]

One more note. When you are jamming with others, listen to the TONE of each picker. That Banjo that every time you hear it it makes you smile, that guitar player that every lick he plays a simple g lick you take note (more than the other 4 guys doing it), that mando chop that sounds better than the others. Learn from them what makes their instrument special to them. When you have a few instruments that people beg you to sell them because of the tone and feel (had a guy offer me a 3500 mando for my banjo which is worth 1500 less, had a Gibson electric as a teenager that everyone begged me to sell them) you have probably picked something special.

[Michael Neverisky]

I was with you on the first post, but here I'll offer a different point of view.


One more note. When you are jamming with others, listen to the TONE of each picker.

When listening to accomplished musicians, in my experience, the source of what is most compelling in their tone and musical performance is not the hardware. We have all been in the position where we have handed our non-pedigree banjo, fiddle, guitar or mandolin off to someone else only to learn that we never knew that instrument could sound good!

[vince f]

I was with you on the first post, but here I'll offer a different point of view.



When listening to accomplished musicians, in my experience, the source of what is most compelling in their tone and musical performance is not the hardware. We have all been in the position where we have handed our non-pedigree banjo, fiddle, guitar or mandolin off to someone else only to learn that we never knew that instrument could sound good!

well, I have heard this over and over, and I agree that someone who is topnotch can make any of my instruments sound better than I can. I have also heard really top flight pros with a tone that did not wow me. If you hear something that blows you away, it is probably a combination of both.

[bigskygirl]

Thanks again for th replies. I guess high and low end is relative. I'm sure that my playing would not highlight the value of an instrument costing more than my car.

It's amazing how fast the conversation went from talking about $1k mandolins to $20k mandolins!

Ha, yes...a loaded question here.

I will echo the ones who said to play alot of mandolins before you decide. I had an Eastman 315 I bought on a whim and played it for about a year before I decided to get a spendy mandolin. I played lots of styles and brands and listened to lots of videos and sound clips and read everything I could here and decided on my Northfield F5M. I love it and this'll get a laugh here but I can't imagine buying another F style mandolin.

Now A's are a different thing altogether and I can see myself getting one in the future. I will check out the Northfield M and Collings and may have another custom done but before I decide I will again play alot of them.

I kind of skimmed this thread so not sure if you already decided but call some of the sponsors here at the Cafe and talk to them about the mandolins. Call Peter Bagale at Northfield and talk to him directly, when I was getting my NF He was very responsive and more than happy to discuss anything about it. Also, call Greg Boyd and visit his website as he has a variety of mandolins that run from $1000 to over $20,000...a super guy who knows his stuff and a pleasure to talk to.

[Nick Gellie]

I an vouch for the Northfield Model M. I would not class it as low end domestic. Probably one of the best you can buy domestic.